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Thread: Nationalism

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Thank you for making everything you've been doing wrong glaringly wrong.
    And yet you fail to even answer my central question. You who undeniably know what "is" in all forms, tell me what "ought" to be. Can you? Will you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    And yet you fail to even answer my central question. You who undeniably know what "is" in all forms, tell me what "ought" to be. Can you? Will you?
    You ought to learn to actually read what people say and address their points if you don't want to look like an idiot.

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    Animals of all types defend their territories.

    Man is so much more than an animal now though. So, its a tough question.

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    As a concept I am neutral towards it. Its implementation is something I tend to evaluate on an individual basis.

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    Nationalism is just a political tool, whether it is good or bad depends on whether the constitutional ideals and government of the nation in question are necessary/good, or better off being overthrown and replaced. I'm am not nationalistic towards my home country America, but I would be if I agreed with everything it stood for.

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    Do I feel some sentiment towards the land I live on, the people I live with, the culture I live in? Sure I do, but those concepts aren't restricted by territorial boundaries agreed upon by states and enforced by violence. And I definitely don't have positive sentiment towards the US government, the nation state I live under.
    What is a utopia? A dream unrealized, but not unrealizable. -- Joseph Dejacque
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    There is a recent tendency for voters in advanced countries to vote for isolationism, and to use the idea of Nationalism to defend it. Why might this be?

    https://stumblingandmumbling.typepad...ic-growth.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Why do people think the best country in the world, the best sports team in the world, the best religion in the world, etc. is the one they just happened to have been born into? Just because I happened to have slid out my mother's belly in this particular part of the planet, doesn't give me any more of an inclination/desire for this particular piece of landmass, to research it, to belong to it, etc. than any other piece of landmass on the planet. But that's just me.
    There's a difference between thinking X culture is objectively above all, and protecting/focusing on your own culture as a priority.
    'The charm of knowledge would be small if so much shame did not have to be overcome on the road to it.'

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

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    If we decide to be ignorant and take the definition that the populace and the media give of nationalism, describing it as pride in the state itself and patriotic symbols over those of other states (something that by definition is not nationalism but constitutional patriotism) , and in this case a huge number of western countries could be classified as nationalists. However, if we take nationalism as a desire for permanence and self-sufficiency of the nation itself, as well as a claim for the right of a nationality to the reaffirmation of its own personality and collective identity through political self-determination, then we speak at the same time of the identitarian movements in struggle for the rights of black people and white nationalists and separatist in the United States, or of European fascisms at the same time of modern Latin American socialist movements, and of an endless number of movements and ideologies in contradiction or congruence among themselves that cannot be cataloged with the rapidity with which most of the population catalogs nationalisms, given their absolute ignorance of the depth of the sociopolitical panorama of the world in which they are living.


    Nationalism cannot be understood as radical patriotism in the same way that libertarianism cannot be understood as the idea of ​​giving benefits to the wealthy or socialism as the idea of ​​increasing taxes and public benefits.
    If someone wants to talk about a topic, the least they should do is find out a minimum information of this topic in particular, with a simple google search it is enough, but everyone prefers to drop the first thing that comes to their mind rather than stop to investigate and elucidate what they say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    I like it from an economical perspective because it provokes competition. Zero-sum games are usually the cause of the biggest bursts in productivity. From the social perspective, certain types of nationalism are the proverbial gravity that hinders maximal social unification ("complete" social unification is of course impossible, hence the reason why I used the word "maximal" instead). Globalization has been a tax on nationalism, and sure technology is still advancing, but I would argue it is not growing at a good rate. It is the complacency granted to us by globalization that makes us "unmotivated" to go out there and accomplish because there is no enemy to triumph over.

    My Solution:
    I think if the economic superpower (we currently don't have one as the global economy slows down) of the next decade takes initiative with threatening sanctions to denuclearize the world (including themselves) we will go back fighting one another provoking nations all over to "pick up the pace." What happens to social unification? Nations will begin to realize to beat their competitors they need "diversified staff." As much stick as America gets for being nationalistic, the country's core principles I think are rather pragmatic. For them nationalism in principle was not primarily based on geographical convenience of someone's birthplace, but rather the unified effort of equals with individual talents, but sympathy for the same ideology. What does this mean? It means it doesn't matter whether you were born in a America, it matters whether you are willing the accept the American ideology. This does not diminish social unification; instead it promotes because they don't care about your background, but rather, what you have to offer as an individual. When there is a culture that promotes intensive realization of one's potential it directly contributes to the country's power. The problem is many nationalists go against the intentions of these founding principles that made America so great in the first place. Anyways, to conclude, major countries in this ideal world of mine would trend towards their own version of America, upping global productivity while lowering local discrimination. Of course it would produce more conflict, but all great successes are built upon the blood, sweat, tears of the competitors and the indefinite misery of the losers. I believe this is the world we live in, and the further we accept it, the further we will go.

    Disclaimer#1: I am not American.
    Disclaimer#2: My ideal world setting is extremely unlikely to happen. I don't think we will be getting rid of nukes any time soon.
    This kind of reminds me of F.A. Hayek's opposing a common European currency because he argued it would lead to weakening of competition between currencies and thusly between economies.

    Interestingly, Hayek himself argued in favor of private currencies as an alternative to national currencies for the same reason he argued in favor of national currencies as opposed to a global one. So Hayek was certainly not seeing states (not the same thing as nations, though we often speak of nation-states) as the only vector of competition, possibly he was seeing the fact there are diverging interest groups in an economy as a stimulus to competition. But the economy has to have these groups be inter-connected, possibly through trade or through transfer of capital.

    For example, one of the reasons America has a strong economy is because it not only exports, and exports alot, but because Americans often "buy American". Same thing with Germany and China. But these geographic regions are abstract, the only thing binding them internally is a military that protects its currency, especially in the case of America and China. In reality, you could have different US states and Chinese provinces competing against each other (and in reality, this is what happens, for example, take the case of capital being transferred from the "rust belt" to Silicon Valley - an example of inter-regional economic competition within the same country). But you simply don't have a currency to reflect this competition. So we don't always have a very clear picture of who benefits more from globalism and who benefits more from nationalism. We simply have things like GDP, which means little since it reflects the sum total of a country's economic output - not which parts of a country are doing most of the output.

    I suppose my point here is that, while I agree that competition between nation-states can be a good thing to stimulate competition, it's only one factor among many others that stimulate competition, and that it is hard to tell how impactful it is as such.


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    Economists should be forced to live in their utopias.

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