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Thread: Nationalism

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    Exclamation Nationalism

    What do you think nationalism is, and do you support or reject it? If you think there's good and bad nationalism, what do you think makes some nationalism good and some bad?
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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Wearing a shirt color you happen to like is genuinely important because it will help your football team win. Supporting a law you happen to like will help your country win. Justification. If it precipitates actions that promote the overall well-being of others, I don't see a problem, even if it strikes me as about as "real" as typology. If its used as an excuse to be cruel to people who happen to be excluded from the group, I think there's gotta be bullshit to fall back on that's more logical at face value to support the assholery than "Go Vikings." (I'm American and I think that probably influences my answer, so I identify with my country in that sense. I also think that things that are good for Americans in general will probably affect me, which I think is nationalistic in a literal sense, even if I don't use it to bolster specific ideas, so it's not nationalistic in the sense it usually means.)

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    We need to do something about rampant Chinese nationalism. DDDDDD
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    I try to reject it, because it is chauvinistic even in weaker forms. But I still have nationalistic sentiments.

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    Well I believe a country is not a nation, even if it has laws and a government. Nation means an ethnic group and country means a piece of land, for starters. I think even if you're an anarchist opposed to states you have to at least begin to understand nations can exist without states and vice versa. Of course, I think states are good things without nationalism and nationalism is horrible whether it's in state form or not. People just confuse patriotism and nationalism to the point using the terms gets confusing.
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    As a side note for people who like stranger ideas, nationalism, Nazism, and "paganism"/"Satanism" appear to be the same. I put the last two words in quotes since religious identity labels are almost never meaningful, but for example ancient gods are always referred to in nationalistic terms as Greek gods, Roman gods, Norse gods, Egyptian gods, etc. Ancient religions are a whole other can of worms and I don't think they all fit under the nationalist label, however, it's interesting how closely nationalism and religion are tied up even today, for example, God supposedly fighting useless wars with America, or far-right "pagan tradition" revivals, or Fichte's national mysticism which seems to somehow appeal to even "rational" people who "aren't nationalistic" when they encounter another culture and language/dialect and feel intimidated.
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    Why do people think the best country in the world, the best sports team in the world, the best religion in the world, etc. is the one they just happened to have been born into? Just because I happened to have slid out my mother's belly in this particular part of the planet, doesn't give me any more of an inclination/desire for this particular piece of landmass, to research it, to belong to it, etc. than any other piece of landmass on the planet. But that's just me.

    Someday there won't be any more countries. Our travel habits will be even more global than they are now. Maybe we'll have teleportation options. So I can live in Finland and work in Japan. The David Dukes of the world will have to accept that. Maybe we'll all be brown, all will be mixed. No more whites, no more blacks, no more asians. We'll all be mixed. And we'll look back at all this silliness, the religious dogmatism, the sports, the patriotism, the racism, etc. And think how silly the human species was.
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    It's no different from loving your own family, or those close to you. Every country should be nationalist. Love for one thing does not mean hate for another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armalite View Post
    It's no different from loving your own family, or those close to you. Every country should be nationalist. Love for one thing does not mean hate for another.
    That's called patriotism. I know the dictionary says nationalism means patriotism for one definition, but it also says literally means figuratively for one definition.
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    Seeing American flags everywhere makes my eyes soar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Seeing American flags everywhere makes my eyes soar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    Identification with or desire to create an independent nation-state. Tribal impulses are generally suspect, but they can sometimes cause good effects; Indian nationalism for instance won independence from a generally oppressive state.

    Generally the effects are worse when the nationalism is for a state already extant. German nationalism led to the Nazis, arguably Turkish nationalism caused the Armenian Genocide, the Ba’ath party was fueled by Arab nationalism, and so on.
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    Not sure about nationalism. Most likely a 6w5, 641.

    Hong Kong is definitely a gamma introvert, while China is most likely a rational logician, my guess is maksimka.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    How do you recognize a patriotic (or nationalistic) person? Does it manifest in a way other than professed love for one's nation/country? Can someone of any political stripe love their people?

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    I see it as pride in your country, associate it with people who think their country is the best. I don’t think just because I was born in America, that it’s the best. I don’t even think America is the best. It kind of annoys me when people go on about their country’s superiority. I guess you could say I’m not really into. However whenever I’ve been on vacation and I come back to Indiana, it feels nice. Comfortable. I feel like one of these people. Down south they feel too nice, loud, and intrusive. Go towards New York and they feel rude. Hoosiers are friendly but they give you your space too. I’m not saying Indiana is the best, but I feel at home here. It’s a relief being back here after I’ve been gone for a while. But I don’t think that’s nationilistic. I would honestly profess this place is extremely boring and barren, and other states are more exciting. The people in other states may be more interesting. But it’s home and my people are home. lol I’ve never been out of the country, except for a day in Canada (lol) but I’m sure I’d feel the same way if I left the country and came back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    How do you recognize a patriotic (or nationalistic) person? Does it manifest in a way other than professed love for one's nation/country? Can someone of any political stripe love their people?
    If a person had an EU flag outside their house, it need not mean they are less patriotic than a person who had a British flag outside their house.

    Only 15% of Dutch people would fight for their country - I don't think that means Dutch people are less proud of being Dutch than other people in their respective nations.

    It is clear that those who are especially concerned with public displays of nationalistic pride tend to be noticeable however.

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    When you are the State, nationalism is unimportant.


    Er, I mean...nationalism is contrary to the spirit of peaceful co-existence and universal co-operation.


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    I hate nationalism. It’s all about feeling pride and belonging. I am human...I belong to the human race. I was born in Armenia and I married the man I love, my husband had a European heritage and he was born in America and we would move to a more peaceful and relaxed country if we could. We don’t care about pride...we want to live a peaceful life
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

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    Its just a form of tribalism. It can help foster cooperation and team spirit by uniting people under a flag, sacrificing the individual for the greater good (in this case your country).
    Its mostly a Fe valuing thing.
    And more beta than alpha.

    Opposite of it would be delta who like to go their own way more and generally dont care about the greater whole of society and groupthink

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Its just a form of tribalism. It can help foster cooperation and team spirit by uniting people under a flag, sacrificing the individual for the greater good (in this case your country).
    Its mostly a Fe valuing thing.
    And more beta than alpha.

    Opposite of it would be delta who like to go their own way more and generally dont care about the greater whole of society and groupthink
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    I hate nationalism. It’s all about feeling pride and belonging. I am human...I belong to the human race. I was born in Armenia and I married the man I love, my husband had a European heritage and he was born in America and we would move to a more peaceful and relaxed country if we could. We don’t care about pride...we want to live a peaceful life
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    What do you think nationalism is, and do you support or reject it? If you think there's good and bad nationalism, what do you think makes some nationalism good and some bad?
    It's a basic in-group preference. I support it insofar as we're never going to get rid of it so we might as well embrace it and work from there. It is also the the basis of K-selection, and we humans are, at the end of the day, K-selected. We prefer to live among those who both look like us and sound like us in a linguistic sense. For example, you may not "like" people who have a harsh southern drawl, but if you're an American you'll probably start to feel nostalgic for that accent if you were suddenly teleported to China sans any knowledge of Mandarin or how to speak Chinese at all. At least you could, in some form, innately understand the words coming out of the mouth of that southern hick. Good Luck learning a Tonal language without the concept of what those are previously!

    I mean, skin color be damned, if someone speaks your language in your "local" accent you're gonna be more open to the concept of them being "one of us" as opposed to an "other". Again, basic human nature. We must all learn and adapt if we are all to ever truly hold hands and sing Kumbayah or something. Hell, the very fact they're speaking your language in a way you can even pick up on is a major bridge between "other" and "one of us".

    I could go on, but I'll just leave this as "food for thought" and get some sleep. Imagine a different "race" speaking to you flawlessly in your own language and accent. You really gonna hate on that individual all things being equal? I know I wouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    .
    you can pretend all u want but ur still Fe lead sistah

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    you can pretend all u want but ur still Fe lead sistah
    I’m not pretending
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    I’m not pretending
    Ok just stupid then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Ok just stupid then?
    You are the stupid one for not reading and comprehending what I wrote and thus in turn calling me names for your lack of comprehend
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Its just a form of tribalism. It can help foster cooperation and team spirit by uniting people under a flag, sacrificing the individual for the greater good (in this case your country).
    Its mostly a Fe valuing thing.
    And more beta than alpha.

    Opposite of it would be delta who like to go their own way more and generally dont care about the greater whole of society and groupthink
    wow so most conservatives are Fe, ur brilliant.

    It makes no fucking difference whether you call it Fe or Delta, you might as well say that nationalists are made out of mostly carbon and water. It's a meaningless categorization.

    What difference does it make, whether you call nationalism Fe or conservativism or tribalism or an idea born out of atoms?

    The real question is, how does nationalism work? Or what it even "is"? And in what context?

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    Nationalism is not related to any functions whatsoever.

    It's just another way to show people "I"m better than you" in short because of something you had absolutely no choice or control over.

    It's like the good looking person who looks down and mocks those less attractive. Like yeah, your nation might be stronger but you're acting like a piece of shit about it, not like you chose to be from there, or what you look like or like you yourself contributed anything to the overall greatness of Italy when you lived your life in America. Otherwise we would all pick the best one right? Something like nationalism is just a small way to think. In case it wasn't obvious enough already, nationalism has lead to 2 world wars.

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    I actually think that most people are nationalist or at least patriotic in some ways. There are simply degrees of differences in its expression of it.

    The definition of nationalism/patriotism is "loving your own country". And my theory of "love" is putting someone on the top of the list, and giving them preferential treatments, such as being kinder to them. And "hate" is putting someone on the bottom of the list, and treating them worse.

    So loving your own country would mean giving it a preferential treatment over other countries. But this does not necessarily mean treating other countries worse or boasting about your own country. It simply means that you want to better or improve your own country in some ways. Which would in turn, improve other countries.

    But if you lacked kindness, then you go with the more jingoistic route, and start treating other countries worse. But that's not love, or at least it's not love WITH kindness.

    So my theory is that jingoistic people simply lack kindness. It's simply a "My dad can beat up your dad" kind of thing. Patriotic people do not tend to have this kind of narcissistic self-love.

    I mean it's true, you may neither love nor hate your own country, and stay indifferent to it, and that's fine.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    I was thinking this was my thread when I liked @kingslayers post out of courtesy lol which goes to show how a "kindness/responsibility to my own" streak is kinda intrinsic

    Which isn't to say I disagree with them per se, cuz I think in practice it tends to manifest that way in most people. But my thoughts are closer to those of @Singu, whose post I liked for that reason, lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    Nationalism is not related to any functions whatsoever.

    It's just another way to show people "I"m better than you" in short because of something you had absolutely no choice or control over.

    It's like the good looking person who looks down and mocks those less attractive. Like yeah, your nation might be stronger but you're acting like a piece of shit about it, not like you chose to be from there, or what you look like or like you yourself contributed anything to the overall greatness of Italy when you lived your life in America. Otherwise we would all pick the best one right? Something like nationalism is just a small way to think. In case it wasn't obvious enough already, nationalism has lead to 2 world wars.
    It is related to Fe because Fe is the function that extroverts societal ethics. Your post about makes you very Delta
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Nationalism is wrong and Delta is the best quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Nationalism is wrong and Delta is the best quadra.
    Delta sucks and Nazis suck too. You lose.
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    the approach with the accent on common interests of a group (in this case its kind as a nation)
    generally, being about interests of a majority mb said as a variant of humanism
    often is represented as alternative to individualism, known as liberalism and to internationalism, known as globalism
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  35. #35
    FreelancePoliceman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Delta sucks and Nazis suck too. You lose.
    Which quadra do you think is better than Delta? I for one can't think of a more wholesome quadra.
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

  36. #36
    Professionally Typed RPG Class Warlock coeruleum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Which quadra do you think is better than Delta? I for one can't think of a more wholesome quadra.
    All and none of them.
    I am disappointed in humanity for not sending unsolicited nude pictures to aliens.
    We're all mad here.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    All and none of them.
    A non-answer! You're just afraid to admit I'm right.
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

  38. #38
    Professionally Typed RPG Class Warlock coeruleum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    A non-answer! You're just afraid to admit I'm right.
    1. Within the socionics context, every quadra seems better than delta. ("All of them.")
    2. I have no evidence that quadra actually means anything in the real world, even if you assume a Jungian type theory. ("None of them.")
    I am disappointed in humanity for not sending unsolicited nude pictures to aliens.
    We're all mad here.
     


  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    wow so most conservatives are Fe, ur brilliant.

    It makes no fucking difference whether you call it Fe or Delta, you might as well say that nationalists are made out of mostly carbon and water. It's a meaningless categorization.

    What difference does it make, whether you call nationalism Fe or conservativism or tribalism or an idea born out of atoms?

    The real question is, how does nationalism work? Or what it even "is"? And in what context?
    Nobody cares about ur anti socionics stance. Just gtfo the forum if u dont believe in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    You are the stupid one for not reading and comprehending what I wrote and thus in turn calling me names for your lack of comprehend
    Lack of comprehend? U mean lack of comprehension?

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