What do you think nationalism is, and do you support or reject it? If you think there's good and bad nationalism, what do you think makes some nationalism good and some bad?
What do you think nationalism is, and do you support or reject it? If you think there's good and bad nationalism, what do you think makes some nationalism good and some bad?
Wearing a shirt color you happen to like is genuinely important because it will help your football team win. Supporting a law you happen to like will help your country win. Justification. If it precipitates actions that promote the overall well-being of others, I don't see a problem, even if it strikes me as about as "real" as typology. If its used as an excuse to be cruel to people who happen to be excluded from the group, I think there's gotta be bullshit to fall back on that's more logical at face value to support the assholery than "Go Vikings." (I'm American and I think that probably influences my answer, so I identify with my country in that sense. I also think that things that are good for Americans in general will probably affect me, which I think is nationalistic in a literal sense, even if I don't use it to bolster specific ideas, so it's not nationalistic in the sense it usually means.)
We need to do something about rampant Chinese nationalism. DDDDDD
I try to reject it, because it is chauvinistic even in weaker forms. But I still have nationalistic sentiments.
Improving your happiness and changing your personality for the better
Jungian theory is not grounded in empirical data (pdf file)
The case against type dynamics (pdf file)
Cautionary comments regarding the MBTI (pdf file)
Reinterpreting the MBTI via the five-factor model (pdf file)
Do the Big Five personality traits interact to predict life outcomes? (pdf file)
The Big Five personality test outperformed the Jungian and Enneagram test in predicting life outcomes
Evidence of correlations between human partners based on systematic reviews and meta-analyses of traits
Well I believe a country is not a nation, even if it has laws and a government. Nation means an ethnic group and country means a piece of land, for starters. I think even if you're an anarchist opposed to states you have to at least begin to understand nations can exist without states and vice versa. Of course, I think states are good things without nationalism and nationalism is horrible whether it's in state form or not. People just confuse patriotism and nationalism to the point using the terms gets confusing.
As a side note for people who like stranger ideas, nationalism, Nazism, and "paganism"/"Satanism" appear to be the same. I put the last two words in quotes since religious identity labels are almost never meaningful, but for example ancient gods are always referred to in nationalistic terms as Greek gods, Roman gods, Norse gods, Egyptian gods, etc. Ancient religions are a whole other can of worms and I don't think they all fit under the nationalist label, however, it's interesting how closely nationalism and religion are tied up even today, for example, God supposedly fighting useless wars with America, or far-right "pagan tradition" revivals, or Fichte's national mysticism which seems to somehow appeal to even "rational" people who "aren't nationalistic" when they encounter another culture and language/dialect and feel intimidated.
Why do people think the best country in the world, the best sports team in the world, the best religion in the world, etc. is the one they just happened to have been born into? Just because I happened to have slid out my mother's belly in this particular part of the planet, doesn't give me any more of an inclination/desire for this particular piece of landmass, to research it, to belong to it, etc. than any other piece of landmass on the planet. But that's just me.
Someday there won't be any more countries. Our travel habits will be even more global than they are now. Maybe we'll have teleportation options. So I can live in Finland and work in Japan. The David Dukes of the world will have to accept that. Maybe we'll all be brown, all will be mixed. No more whites, no more blacks, no more asians. We'll all be mixed. And we'll look back at all this silliness, the religious dogmatism, the sports, the patriotism, the racism, etc. And think how silly the human species was.
EII-INFj / INFP / Strong E4 and 9 energy / Melancholic-Phlegmatic / Musical-Intrapersonal-Spatial / Kinky-Sensual
It's no different from loving your own family, or those close to you. Every country should be nationalist. Love for one thing does not mean hate for another.
Seeing American flags everywhere makes my eyes soar.
Identification with or desire to create an independent nation-state. Tribal impulses are generally suspect, but they can sometimes cause good effects; Indian nationalism for instance won independence from a generally oppressive state.
Generally the effects are worse when the nationalism is for a state already extant. German nationalism led to the Nazis, arguably Turkish nationalism caused the Armenian Genocide, the Ba’ath party was fueled by Arab nationalism, and so on.
Not sure about nationalism. Most likely a 6w5, 641.
Hong Kong is definitely a gamma introvert, while China is most likely a rational logician, my guess is maksimka.
How do you recognize a patriotic (or nationalistic) person? Does it manifest in a way other than professed love for one's nation/country? Can someone of any political stripe love their people?
If a person had an EU flag outside their house, it need not mean they are less patriotic than a person who had a British flag outside their house.
Only 15% of Dutch people would fight for their country - I don't think that means Dutch people are less proud of being Dutch than other people in their respective nations.
It is clear that those who are especially concerned with public displays of nationalistic pride tend to be noticeable however.
Improving your happiness and changing your personality for the better
Jungian theory is not grounded in empirical data (pdf file)
The case against type dynamics (pdf file)
Cautionary comments regarding the MBTI (pdf file)
Reinterpreting the MBTI via the five-factor model (pdf file)
Do the Big Five personality traits interact to predict life outcomes? (pdf file)
The Big Five personality test outperformed the Jungian and Enneagram test in predicting life outcomes
Evidence of correlations between human partners based on systematic reviews and meta-analyses of traits
I see it as pride in your country, associate it with people who think their country is the best. I don’t think just because I was born in America, that it’s the best. I don’t even think America is the best. It kind of annoys me when people go on about their country’s superiority. I guess you could say I’m not really into. However whenever I’ve been on vacation and I come back to Indiana, it feels nice. Comfortable. I feel like one of these people. Down south they feel too nice, loud, and intrusive. Go towards New York and they feel rude. Hoosiers are friendly but they give you your space too. I’m not saying Indiana is the best, but I feel at home here. It’s a relief being back here after I’ve been gone for a while. But I don’t think that’s nationilistic. I would honestly profess this place is extremely boring and barren, and other states are more exciting. The people in other states may be more interesting. But it’s home and my people are home. lol I’ve never been out of the country, except for a day in Canada (lol) but I’m sure I’d feel the same way if I left the country and came back.
When you are the State, nationalism is unimportant.
Er, I mean...nationalism is contrary to the spirit of peaceful co-existence and universal co-operation.
I hate nationalism. It’s all about feeling pride and belonging. I am human...I belong to the human race. I was born in Armenia and I married the man I love, my husband had a European heritage and he was born in America and we would move to a more peaceful and relaxed country if we could. We don’t care about pride...we want to live a peaceful life
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Its just a form of tribalism. It can help foster cooperation and team spirit by uniting people under a flag, sacrificing the individual for the greater good (in this case your country).
Its mostly a Fe valuing thing.
And more beta than alpha.
Opposite of it would be delta who like to go their own way more and generally dont care about the greater whole of society and groupthink
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
wow so most conservatives are Fe, ur brilliant.
It makes no fucking difference whether you call it Fe or Delta, you might as well say that nationalists are made out of mostly carbon and water. It's a meaningless categorization.
What difference does it make, whether you call nationalism Fe or conservativism or tribalism or an idea born out of atoms?
The real question is, how does nationalism work? Or what it even "is"? And in what context?
"Love it or leave it!" Well ironically this is the exact kind of tribalism that you were talking about. You're typing yourself Fe-valuing, so at least you're consistent.
I mean you're right though, this forum sucks and is full of idiots like you who have abandoned any kind of rational thinking.
It's just a testament to how irrational thoughts and blind beliefs in whatever fads can manifest. It has been a trainwreck of amusement, but tragic.
Nobody outside of this forum will ever take Socionics seriously, noob.
You're not debating "is socionics real?" You're just yelling "socionics can't possibly be real!" all over a socionics forum like a dog peeing all over a fire hydrant to show this is your territory with your superior Popper books, which you don't even discuss with us. I don't believe in The Gospel of Socionics, but it might be true or might not until more empirical testing is done and this is a place to post that's not horrible except for the near-complete lack of moderation.
Your framing of your "socionics cult" as an alternative-hypothesis that has no value, and which people only believe because of herd-mentality, also implicitly casts whatever your own idea of "The Truth" or "The Pursuit Of Truth" is as if it is the null hypothesis, and that it has inherent value by default.
But truths are just phrases. Ideas. Scaffolds for one's thoughts. You only need truths for the act of thinking and speaking. So they're just human institutions. They may be useful to your wants, but they're still alien to you. There's no inherent reason they should be your wants, rather than a mere means to an end.
You can think as reason as much as you want for your own wants, but no one is making you do it. If you've lost the pleasure in contemplating something before you've gotten to the bottom of it then there's no compulsion for you to keep digging unless you have some other personal purpose in doing so. If you no longer believe in something, as a cause-in-itself, you don't need to waste any more energy on it either.
No "highest cause" is worth you serving it for its sake. Thoughts tend to form a hierarchical structure as they go along, so if you serve the highest cause of Truth in itself, you're as servile as a theologian would be to his religious convictions.
Truth is just another thing to possess you.
It's a basic in-group preference. I support it insofar as we're never going to get rid of it so we might as well embrace it and work from there. It is also the the basis of K-selection, and we humans are, at the end of the day, K-selected. We prefer to live among those who both look like us and sound like us in a linguistic sense. For example, you may not "like" people who have a harsh southern drawl, but if you're an American you'll probably start to feel nostalgic for that accent if you were suddenly teleported to China sans any knowledge of Mandarin or how to speak Chinese at all. At least you could, in some form, innately understand the words coming out of the mouth of that southern hick. Good Luck learning a Tonal language without the concept of what those are previously!
I mean, skin color be damned, if someone speaks your language in your "local" accent you're gonna be more open to the concept of them being "one of us" as opposed to an "other". Again, basic human nature. We must all learn and adapt if we are all to ever truly hold hands and sing Kumbayah or something. Hell, the very fact they're speaking your language in a way you can even pick up on is a major bridge between "other" and "one of us".
I could go on, but I'll just leave this as "food for thought" and get some sleep. Imagine a different "race" speaking to you flawlessly in your own language and accent. You really gonna hate on that individual all things being equal? I know I wouldn't.
Nationalism is not related to any functions whatsoever.
It's just another way to show people "I"m better than you" in short because of something you had absolutely no choice or control over.
It's like the good looking person who looks down and mocks those less attractive. Like yeah, your nation might be stronger but you're acting like a piece of shit about it, not like you chose to be from there, or what you look like or like you yourself contributed anything to the overall greatness of Italy when you lived your life in America. Otherwise we would all pick the best one right? Something like nationalism is just a small way to think. In case it wasn't obvious enough already, nationalism has lead to 2 world wars.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
That last part is BS. Nationalism didn't cause the first (and by extension the second) World War. Globalism/Imperialism (but I repeat myself) did. Entangling alliances my dude, look up who was "allied" to whom at the time and that dumpster fire exploding into an epic world consuming firestorm becomes a tragically foregone conclusion once one bad thing (that sociopathic asshat rulers think they can use to to further their ends) happens. Bismark saw it coming, and the Kaiser was stupid enough to ignore his rather rational warning.
Here's a video that explains it in about the same tone as I feel I'd explain it.
Last edited by End; 11-23-2019 at 06:29 AM.
Damnit, how do I embed a youtube video into a post such that it appears in the post as a vid you can click on and just watch from here? Very frustrated as I'm sure I knew how to do that in the past .
Update: Figured it out, feel like an idiot for not seeing it sooner. Watch that vid, I still back it.
Last edited by End; 11-23-2019 at 06:36 AM.
I actually think that most people are nationalist or at least patriotic in some ways. There are simply degrees of differences in its expression of it.
The definition of nationalism/patriotism is "loving your own country". And my theory of "love" is putting someone on the top of the list, and giving them preferential treatments, such as being kinder to them. And "hate" is putting someone on the bottom of the list, and treating them worse.
So loving your own country would mean giving it a preferential treatment over other countries. But this does not necessarily mean treating other countries worse or boasting about your own country. It simply means that you want to better or improve your own country in some ways. Which would in turn, improve other countries.
But if you lacked kindness, then you go with the more jingoistic route, and start treating other countries worse. But that's not love, or at least it's not love WITH kindness.
So my theory is that jingoistic people simply lack kindness. It's simply a "My dad can beat up your dad" kind of thing. Patriotic people do not tend to have this kind of narcissistic self-love.
I mean it's true, you may neither love nor hate your own country, and stay indifferent to it, and that's fine.
I was thinking this was my thread when I liked @kingslayers post out of courtesy lol which goes to show how a "kindness/responsibility to my own" streak is kinda intrinsic
Which isn't to say I disagree with them per se, cuz I think in practice it tends to manifest that way in most people. But my thoughts are closer to those of @Singu, whose post I liked for that reason, lol
Nationalism is wrong and Delta is the best quadra.