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Thread: Nationalism

  1. #41
    LemurianLo's Avatar
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    Nationalism is a virtue that all healthy nations must have in order to work in the benefit of their own survival. Our western societies have less nationalism than ever and coincidentally are on a rapid path towards self destruction with demographic decline, low birth rates, uncontrollable immigration, lack of care for own culture or the integration of those coming to our lands to our culture, etc. List goes on. When you don't care for nationalism, you don't care for the future and survival of your own.
    Last edited by LemurianLo; 11-22-2019 at 05:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    Nationalism is not related to any functions whatsoever.

    It's just another way to show people "I"m better than you" in short because of something you had absolutely no choice or control over.

    It's like the good looking person who looks down and mocks those less attractive. Like yeah, your nation might be stronger but you're acting like a piece of shit about it, not like you chose to be from there, or what you look like or like you yourself contributed anything to the overall greatness of Italy when you lived your life in America. Otherwise we would all pick the best one right? Something like nationalism is just a small way to think. In case it wasn't obvious enough already, nationalism has lead to 2 world wars.
    That last part is BS. Nationalism didn't cause the first (and by extension the second) World War. Globalism/Imperialism (but I repeat myself) did. Entangling alliances my dude, look up who was "allied" to whom at the time and that dumpster fire exploding into an epic world consuming firestorm becomes a tragically foregone conclusion once one bad thing (that sociopathic asshat rulers think they can use to to further their ends) happens. Bismark saw it coming, and the Kaiser was stupid enough to ignore his rather rational warning.

    Here's a video that explains it in about the same tone as I feel I'd explain it.

    Last edited by End; 11-23-2019 at 07:29 AM.

  3. #43
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    Damnit, how do I embed a youtube video into a post such that it appears in the post as a vid you can click on and just watch from here? Very frustrated as I'm sure I knew how to do that in the past .

    Update: Figured it out, feel like an idiot for not seeing it sooner. Watch that vid, I still back it.
    Last edited by End; 11-23-2019 at 07:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Nobody cares about ur anti socionics stance. Just gtfo the forum if u dont believe in it.
    "Love it or leave it!" Well ironically this is the exact kind of tribalism that you were talking about. You're typing yourself Fe-valuing, so at least you're consistent.

    I mean you're right though, this forum sucks and is full of idiots like you who have abandoned any kind of rational thinking.

    It's just a testament to how irrational thoughts and blind beliefs in whatever fads can manifest. It has been a trainwreck of amusement, but tragic.

    Nobody outside of this forum will ever take Socionics seriously, noob.

  5. #45
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    my SLI cousin has a lot of pride for her "homeland" maybe because she is xenophobic. clearly SLI are not humanist lol
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    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
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  6. #46
    Master of Space and Reality Viktor's Avatar
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    The only reason why we have strong and functioning nations at all is thanks to nationalism. It's a good thing, but not something that is relevant in our time. With a global economy and the internet and everyone speaking english etc. it's just not relevant anymore. It makes sense in socionics, there's been a decline from the former nationalistic glory to a capitalist society where people just care about themselves and money, Beta to Gamma. Idk who caused the decline, if it was because of our sins or because the ((((merchants)))) did it, but it happened and nationalism as it was before ww2 is not a thing anymore. We can sit here and call eachother stupid all day and jerk off about our subjective opinions, but the fact is that I'm right and nationalism is good but not relevant anymore. I think if we wanted to go back, we'd have to go "around" the cycle of time and end up where we were. I don't think going back is entirely possible, I think before we can reach thr heights again we need to go through total collapse and descent into degeneracy etc.

  7. #47
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    I was about to ask if anti-immigration or concern over adequate integration is relevant to patriotism because of @LemurianLos post and then realized a difference that might not be being clearly articulated here in the ways people are perceiving the concept of patriotism itself. There is (more or less, everyone's different), "my country literally has a superior culture, infrastructure, people, etc" and (more or less) "I want the best possible things to happen to/with my country, which is the same as any other in goodness." Both of these strains were being talked about in this thread, but I feel like this is an important distinction that should be brought attention to. The former strain was being mentioned primarily in a negative way, and I'm not a fan of it, but I'm not (at this particular moment) feeling predisposed to argue. So not calling out the tagged person.

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    I always hated it. If it was just a feeling of pride, I wouldn't mind it. But in its essence it reinforces herd mentality. You can't criticise any decision an official makes without someone painting you as a traitor. I had to do compulsory military service and a lot of lectures would focus on the importance of following your superiors/leaders and not questioning them. Mostly propaganda and brainwashing. You never feel like you have a voice. It destroyed any respect I had for the military. I'm actually less disciplined than I was before I finished my service. Professionalism is not celebrated. If anything it made me more likely to exploit nationalist sentiments for my own interests.

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    slavery today and in pre-industrial times
    medieval feudalism & corporate feudalism
    the role of non-duality in self-liberation
    greek philosophy and the west
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    the NWO, your NWO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    "Love it or leave it!" Well ironically this is the exact kind of tribalism that you were talking about. You're typing yourself Fe-valuing, so at least you're consistent.

    I mean you're right though, this forum sucks and is full of idiots like you who have abandoned any kind of rational thinking.

    It's just a testament to how irrational thoughts and blind beliefs in whatever fads can manifest. It has been a trainwreck of amusement, but tragic.

    Nobody outside of this forum will ever take Socionics seriously, noob.
    Yea the forum is full of people u think are stupid, so u cling around here because? Just gtfo already and save everybodys time. Thanks

  11. #51
    Taking flak and breaking glass coeruleum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    "Love it or leave it!" Well ironically this is the exact kind of tribalism that you were talking about. You're typing yourself Fe-valuing, so at least you're consistent.

    I mean you're right though, this forum sucks and is full of idiots like you who have abandoned any kind of rational thinking.

    It's just a testament to how irrational thoughts and blind beliefs in whatever fads can manifest. It has been a trainwreck of amusement, but tragic.

    Nobody outside of this forum will ever take Socionics seriously, noob.
    You're not debating "is socionics real?" You're just yelling "socionics can't possibly be real!" all over a socionics forum like a dog peeing all over a fire hydrant to show this is your territory with your superior Popper books, which you don't even discuss with us. I don't believe in The Gospel of Socionics, but it might be true or might not until more empirical testing is done and this is a place to post that's not horrible except for the near-complete lack of moderation.
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  12. #52
    Autochauvinist Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    "Love it or leave it!" Well ironically this is the exact kind of tribalism that you were talking about. You're typing yourself Fe-valuing, so at least you're consistent.

    I mean you're right though, this forum sucks and is full of idiots like you who have abandoned any kind of rational thinking.

    It's just a testament to how irrational thoughts and blind beliefs in whatever fads can manifest. It has been a trainwreck of amusement, but tragic.

    Nobody outside of this forum will ever take Socionics seriously, noob.
    Your framing of your "socionics cult" as an alternative-hypothesis that has no value, and which people only believe because of herd-mentality, also implicitly casts whatever your own idea of "The Truth" or "The Pursuit Of Truth" is as if it is the null hypothesis, and that it has inherent value by default.


    But truths are just phrases. Ideas. Scaffolds for one's thoughts. You only need truths for the act of thinking and speaking. So they're just human institutions. They may be useful to your wants, but they're still alien to you. There's no inherent reason they should be your wants, rather than a mere means to an end.
    You can think as reason as much as you want for your own wants, but no one is making you do it. If you've lost the pleasure in contemplating something before you've gotten to the bottom of it then there's no compulsion for you to keep digging unless you have some other personal purpose in doing so. If you no longer believe in something, as a cause-in-itself, you don't need to waste any more energy on it either.

    No "highest cause" is worth you serving it for its sake. Thoughts tend to form a hierarchical structure as they go along, so if you serve the highest cause of Truth in itself, you're as servile as a theologian would be to his religious convictions.

    Truth is just another thing to possess you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


  13. #53
    Taking flak and breaking glass coeruleum's Avatar
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    I think there are objective truths, but I also think The Pursuit of Truth is pretty stupid. Sometimes 2 + 2 does equal 5, so 2 + 2 = 4 is not something worth dying on. However, I can't go claim 5 of something because someone offered me 2 of something once and 2 of it again, because that's not how math will ever work. There are too many truths to pursue them all. It's better not to pursue any and let them all come to you.
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  14. #54
    LemurianLo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I was about to ask if anti-immigration or concern over adequate integration is relevant to patriotism because of @LemurianLos post and then realized a difference that might not be being clearly articulated here in the ways people are perceiving the concept of patriotism itself. There is (more or less, everyone's different), "my country literally has a superior culture, infrastructure, people, etc" and (more or less) "I want the best possible things to happen to/with my country, which is the same as any other in goodness." Both of these strains were being talked about in this thread, but I feel like this is an important distinction that should be brought attention to. The former strain was being mentioned primarily in a negative way, and I'm not a fan of it, but I'm not (at this particular moment) feeling predisposed to argue. So not calling out the tagged person.
    I'm not of the former strain so there's no basis for argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LemurianLo View Post
    When you don't care for nationalism, you don't care for the future and survival of your own.
    Thing is I don't see most of the people I happen to live around as being "my own". Whether these opioid-addicted neckbeards and chewing tobacco obsessed country fuckers survive or not makes absolutely no difference to me. If the nation collapses so be it, I'll willingly adapt and assimilate to whatever comes next.

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  17. #57
    WE'RE ALL GOING HOME HERO's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if Tolstoy was ESI, IEI, or some other type (in contrast, Dostoyevsky definitely ended up becoming a "patriot" and/or "nationalist" as he got older):

    “The feeling of patriotism - It is an immoral feeling because, instead of confessing himself a son of God . . . or even a free man guided by his own reason, each man under the influence of patriotism confesses himself the son of his fatherland and the slave of his government, and commits actions contrary to his reason and conscience.” -- Leo Tolstoy, Patriotism and Government

    “Patriotism in its simplest, clearest and most indubitable signification is nothing else but a means of obtaining for the rulers their ambitions and covetous desires, and for the ruled the abdication of human dignity, reason, conscience, and a slavish enthrallment to those in power.” Leo Tolstoy

    “To abolish war it is necessary to abolish patriotism, and to abolish patriotism it is necessary first to understand that it is an evil. Tell people that patriotism is bad and most will reply, ‘Yes, bad patriotism is bad, but mine is good patriotism.’” -- Leo Tolstoy

    “Seas of blood have been shed for the sake of patriotism. One would expect the harm and irrationality of patriotism to be self-evident to everyone. But the surprising fact is that cultured and learned people not only do not notice the harm and stupidity of patriotism, they resist every unveiling of it with the greatest obstinacy and passion (with no rational grounds), and continue to praise it as beneficent and elevating.” -- Leo Tolstoy



    https://wiki.ubc.ca/Dostoevsky_and_Nationalism

    "Hans Kohn argues that the most important parts of Dostoevsky’s political ideology were anti-Western sentiment and extreme Russian nationalism."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Thing is I don't see most of the people I happen to live around as being "my own". Whether these opioid-addicted neckbeards and chewing tobacco obsessed country fuckers survive or not makes absolutely no difference to me. If the nation collapses so be it, I'll willingly adapt and assimilate to whatever comes next.
    I don't either, but I can tell you that when I go to mass on Sunday I sure as hell feel like I am among "my people" shall we say. Sadly, I don't see many of my "neighbors" showing up. A few do, and I'm thankful for that, but most all of them don't. I'd subject them to a witch test before I went full "fuck em'" mode but if they failed that than yeah, fuck em'!

    Are you religious in any way? A "congregation" can, in my eyes, be a microcosm of a "nation" (hell, us Catholics regularly reference "a holy nation" in our liturgy and the mass itself). Common cultural touchstones, common language (especially if we're talking the "Latin rite" in this instance), common beliefs, etc. Ethnicity is a common and even natural basis for a nation IMO, but one's religion, if fervently/honestly held, trumps ethnicity quite handily. Most would, if they were forced to pick/admit it to themselves in their heart of hearts, rather be a white/black/whatever dot in an ocean of "other" if said others were also fervent believers in their religion. As, in that case, they aren't truly an "other" in the eyes of that ocean of believers all things being equal.

    A curiosity perhaps, but not someone you'd immediately distrust or think was trying to screw you over. They're still someone you wouldn't mind dating/marrying your offspring all things being equal. They pray to your god flawlessly and with an earnesty that may make you question how pure/honest your own faith is given that example true piety before you, they try their best to be worthy in the eyes of said god, they treat you with the respect you are due as their parents, they try their very best to make him/her happy given what they have to work with, etc.

    Now that I think about it, what's more important for a "nationalist" to value? Is it Ethnicity or is it Religion? I of course firmly believe that Religion is most important (i.e. It is better if we focus on our "nation" being "Christian" vs. White/Black/Latino/Xir/etc.) but I am open to any counter-arguments telling me that my focus is misguided somehow. I do relish a good argument .
    Last edited by End; 11-23-2019 at 07:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post

    Are you religious in any way?
    No not at all. My parents made me go to jehovah's witnesses congregations when I was young and I hated it.

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    I also went to Jehovah's Witnesses when I was young yet gave up after several months. Jehovah's Witnesses do seem to believe in climate change, and I knew one (a man in his 50's? or older) who really hated George W. Bush.


    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    you can pretend all u want but ur still Fe lead sistah
    Do you think it's possible Beautiful sky could be Fi-ENFp?




    "nationalism is neither an inherently right-wing nor an inherently left-wing philosophy. It is simply a philosophy that says that the most important thing in politics is protecting the nation. And if a nation defines itself in left-wing terms, it logically follows that the nationalists of that nation will be very left-wing as well"


    Dictionary definitions:

    "nationalism: 1. loyalty to one's nation; esp the exalting of one's nation above all others.

    Editorial note: Nationalism has often been regarded as a benign force, expressing the essential identity of immemorially distinct peoples. Yet destructive passions can be unleashed in its name. Moreover, the concept itself is now challenged by a recognition that it appeals to a sense of community that is 'imagined', whether its appeal is to historical or territorial settlement, shared ethnicity or common religion -- Professor Peter Clarke.

    2. the pursuit of political independence for one's country of nation."


    "nationalist: 1. a loyal and enthusiastic supporter of one's own country. 2 (Nationalist): a member of a political group advocating national independence or strong national government."


    "nationalize: 1. to transfer control or ownership of (an industry or other major concern) to the state government."

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    Quote Originally Posted by HERO View Post
    I also went to Jehovah's Witnesses when I was young yet gave up after several months. Jehovah's Witnesses do seem to believe in climate change, and I knew one (a man in his 50's? or older) who really hated George W. Bush.




    Do you think it's possible Beautiful sky could be Fi-ENFp?




    "nationalism is neither an inherently right-wing nor an inherently left-wing philosophy. It is simply a philosophy that says that the most important thing in politics is protecting the nation. And if a nation defines itself in left-wing terms, it logically follows that the nationalists of that nation will be very left-wing as well"


    Dictionary definitions:

    "nationalism: 1. loyalty to one's nation; esp the exalting of one's nation above all others.

    Editorial note: Nationalism has often been regarded as a benign force, expressing the essential identity of immemorially distinct peoples. Yet destructive passions can be unleashed in its name. Moreover, the concept itself is now challenged by a recognition that it appeals to a sense of community that is 'imagined', whether its appeal is to historical or territorial settlement, shared ethnicity or common religion -- Professor Peter Clarke.

    2. the pursuit of political independence for one's country of nation."


    "nationalist: 1. a loyal and enthusiastic supporter of one's own country. 2 (Nationalist): a member of a political group advocating national independence or strong national government."


    "nationalize: 1. to transfer control or ownership of (an industry or other major concern) to the state government."
    could be but enfj seems more likely at this point i think

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    Taking flak and breaking glass coeruleum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    From what I observe, the self-typed EII is most likely to be nationalistic about their type.
    Jesus, get over your vendetta with Maritsa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Jesus, get over your vendetta with Maritsa.
    I have an issue with behaviour I see as destructive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I have an issue with behaviour I see as destructive.
    I like Maritsa and I like you too, why can't you just be friends

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armalite View Post
    I like Maritsa and I like you too, why can't you just be friends
    I'm open to that.

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    I like it from an economical perspective because it provokes competition. Zero-sum games are usually the cause of the biggest bursts in productivity. From the social perspective, certain types of nationalism are the proverbial gravity that hinders maximal social unification ("complete" social unification is of course impossible, hence the reason why I used the word "maximal" instead). Globalization has been a tax on nationalism, and sure technology is still advancing, but I would argue it is not growing at a good rate. It is the complacency granted to us by globalization that makes us "unmotivated" to go out there and accomplish because there is no enemy to triumph over.

    My Solution:
    I think if the economic superpower (we currently don't have one as the global economy slows down) of the next decade takes initiative with threatening sanctions to denuclearize the world (including themselves) we will go back fighting one another provoking nations all over to "pick up the pace." What happens to social unification? Nations will begin to realize to beat their competitors they need "diversified staff." As much stick as America gets for being nationalistic, the country's core principles I think are rather pragmatic. For them nationalism in principle was not primarily based on geographical convenience of someone's birthplace, but rather the unified effort of equals with individual talents, but sympathy for the same ideology. What does this mean? It means it doesn't matter whether you were born in a America, it matters whether you are willing the accept the American ideology. This does not diminish social unification; instead it promotes because they don't care about your background, but rather, what you have to offer as an individual. When there is a culture that promotes intensive realization of one's potential it directly contributes to the country's power. The problem is many nationalists go against the intentions of these founding principles that made America so great in the first place. Anyways, to conclude, major countries in this ideal world of mine would trend towards their own version of America, upping global productivity while lowering local discrimination. Of course it would produce more conflict, but all great successes are built upon the blood, sweat, tears of the competitors and the indefinite misery of the losers. I believe this is the world we live in, and the further we accept it, the further we will go.

    Disclaimer#1: I am not American.
    Disclaimer#2: My ideal world setting is extremely unlikely to happen. I don't think we will be getting rid of nukes any time soon.
    Last edited by Investigator; 11-24-2019 at 01:18 AM.

  27. #67
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    I was thinking about the patriotism thing today. (I guess according to the OP author, nationalism is defined differently and if you want the thread straight on that, @coeruleum, I'll back off.)

    But if patriotism is like what I've been thinking, wanting the best possible things to happen in your country and endorsing the well-being of the people surrounding you, then yeah, that's everyone, really, lol, so patriotism wouldn't be, like, a distinct feature. So I actually don't understand what it is, other than a right wing buzzword. Is it about viewing your country as literally superior in terms of intrinsic goodness, like I said before? (I was only making an attempt at inference, out of confusion.) And descriptors like "tribalism" are equally vague to me. The comparison of nation and family would need clarification to me because my son, my sister-in-law who deleted my texts when I was in a coma in hopes I'd lose my memory and believe her when she said my boyfriend is a heroin addict, and my cherished aunt that I grew up very close to are in very different categories of "family."
    I feel like it's basic as hell to ask for a definition to be placed on basic concepts, but if you're in the mood, it's not a rhetorical question. Im all ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armalite View Post
    I like Maritsa and I like you too, why can't you just be friends
    Because he's a stalker and I don't want one of those in my life. He hasn't proven worthy to have my friendship. A friend isn't someone who collects data on you and then reposts it like a smear campaign against you. NO THANKS. OBVIOUSLY I have clear boundaries of what a friend is
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    I like it from an economical perspective because it provokes competition. Zero-sum games are usually the cause of the biggest bursts in productivity. From the social perspective, certain types of nationalism are the proverbial gravity that hinders maximal social unification ("complete" social unification is of course impossible, hence the reason why I used the word "maximal" instead). Globalization has been a tax on nationalism, and sure technology is still advancing, but I would argue it is not growing at a good rate. It is the complacency granted to us by globalization that makes us "unmotivated" to go out there and accomplish because there is no enemy to triumph over.

    My Solution:
    I think if the economic superpower (we currently don't have one as the global economy slows down) of the next decade takes initiative with threatening sanctions to denuclearize the world (including themselves) we will go back fighting one another provoking nations all over to "pick up the pace." What happens to social unification? Nations will begin to realize to beat their competitors they need "diversified staff." As much stick as America gets for being nationalistic, the country's core principles I think are rather pragmatic. For them nationalism in principle was not primarily based on geographical convenience of someone's birthplace, but rather the unified effort of equals with individual talents, but sympathy for the same ideology. What does this mean? It means it doesn't matter whether you were born in a America, it matters whether you are willing the accept the American ideology. This does not diminish social unification; instead it promotes because they don't care about your background, but rather, what you have to offer as an individual. When there is a culture that promotes intensive realization of one's potential it directly contributes to the country's power. The problem is many nationalists go against the intentions of these founding principles that made America so great in the first place. Anyways, to conclude, major countries in this ideal world of mine would trend towards their own version of America, upping global productivity while lowering local discrimination. Of course it would produce more conflict, but all great successes are built upon the blood, sweat, tears of the competitors and the indefinite misery of the losers. I believe this is the world we live in, and the further we accept it, the further we will go.

    Disclaimer#1: I am not American.
    Disclaimer#2: My ideal world setting is extremely unlikely to happen. I don't think we will be getting rid of nukes any time soon.
    I would add in one final thing about the "American" model you seem to advocate for (and I do as well if we agree on this). Up until recently, it involved Christianity. That is, there was a "common" religion/public set of values assumed. Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc. are not the same "religion" strictly speaking, but if you asked any of them who Jesus was they'd all give you the same answer more or less. He is the Christ, the redeemer, only son of God, savior of all who will but merely accept his love and mercy and renounce Satan in turn.

    Now that it does not? Well, problems. Easily predictable problems.

    And as for the nukes. Benjamin Franklin put it best: "Those who pound their swords into plowshares will end up plowing for those who kept their swords." I too wish we'd all just turn that immense store of fissile material into fuel rods for power plants and sources of power/propulsion for interstellar spaceships but Ben wasn't wrong. Hence, it'll never happen sadly. If you got a gun but I got a nuke I win, period. Wish it wasn't this way but it is. Our sentiments line up perfectly in this instance. The loser will suffer and there is no way to eliminate that suffering. Accept it and move on for we can't change that no matter how much we may wish to.
    Last edited by End; 11-26-2019 at 07:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Because he's a stalker and I don't want one of those in my life. He hasn't proven worthy to have my friendship. A friend isn't someone who collects data on you and then reposts it like a smear campaign against you. NO THANKS. OBVIOUSLY I have clear boundaries of what a friend is
    Site admins and Google Analytics both have a lot more data on you than one shmoe does. Gotta prioritize.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Thing is I don't see most of the people I happen to live around as being "my own". Whether these opioid-addicted neckbeards and chewing tobacco obsessed country fuckers survive or not makes absolutely no difference to me. If the nation collapses so be it, I'll willingly adapt and assimilate to whatever comes next.
    It creates an interesting thought. How like ultimately, the existence of America, originally united nationalistically, eventually climaxed and then spawned declines in nationalistic thinking in pockets worldwide and within itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I would add in one final thing about the "American" model you seem to advocate for (and I do as well if we agree on this). Up until recently, it involved Christianity. That is, there was a "common" religion/public set of values assumed. Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc. are not the same "religion" strictly speaking, but if you asked any of them who Jesus was they'd all give you the same answer more or less. He is the Christ, the redeemer, only son of God, savior of all who will but merely accept his love and mercy and renounce Satan in turn.

    Now that it does not? Well, problems. Easily predictable problems.

    And as for the nukes. Benjamin Franklin put it best: "Those who pound their swords into plowshares will end up plowing for those who kept their swords." I too wish we'd all just turn that immense store of fissile material into fuel rods for power plants and sources of power/propulsion for interstellar spaceships but Ben wasn't wrong. Hence, it'll never happen sadly. If you got a gun but I got a nuke I win, period. Wish it wasn't this way but it is. Our sentiments line up perfectly in this instance. The loser will suffer and there is no way to eliminate that suffering. Accept it and move on for we can't change that no matter how much we may wish to.
    The "Founding Fathers" were deists, and most Americans today are still Christians. America was founded on reason, not Jesus (and also not Satan.) Please leave your paranoia bubble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    The "Founding Fathers" were deists, and most Americans today are still Christians. America was founded on reason, not Jesus (and also not Satan.) Please leave your paranoia bubble.
    That's some major league Bullshit. America was indeed founded on reason, but as I've pointed out time and again, reason leads to truth, and as "God" is the ultimate truth, true reason leads to God. I'd highly recommend you look into the actual writings of those "founders" as well. Trace the evolution of their beliefs. At one point in time in their lives you'd have been right about them. However, that's not how it usually ends. Most all of them would pass for believers in the end even if they had some "hot takes" in their earlier years you may well love to repeat to yourself.

    Many saints were once prolific sinners, a fact I hope you come to understand the significance of one day.

    I'd also challenge your assertion that most of us Americans are Christian. I mean, fuck, challenge randos (especially those with "danger hair" as I like to put it) to a Witch Test out of the blue. See how many fail it hardcore. It's gonna be a lot lemme tell ya. The "majority" belong to the cult of pop culture, the cult of death, and... a cult I can't name in polite company.

    My little challenge of administering "witch tests" will depend on your location pretty heavily I'll admit. Urban areas, the coasts, etc. Yeah, you'll scarcely find a soul who'll pass. In fly over country/rural areas? You'll find few failures. I live in the latter, I am quite pleased that I am right about this especially among my own blood relatives (who are not all Catholic BTW). Do it my dude, and please report factual data back to me. My models and theories are always in need of additional data .
    Last edited by End; 11-28-2019 at 08:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I'm open to that.
    ha gay

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    That's some major league Bullshit. America was indeed founded on reason, but as I've pointed out time and again, reason leads to truth, and as "God" is the ultimate truth, true reason leads to God. I'd highly recommend you look into the actual writings of those "founders" as well. Trace the evolution of their beliefs. At one point in time in their lives you'd have been right about them. However, that's not how it usually ends. Most all of them would pass for believers in the end even if they had some "hot takes" in their earlier years you may well love to repeat to yourself.

    Many saints were once prolific sinners, a fact I hope you come to understand the significance of one day.

    I'd also challenge your assertion that most of us Americans are Christian. I mean, fuck, challenge randos (especially those with "danger hair" as I like to put it) to a Witch Test out of the blue. See how many fail it hardcore. It's gonna be a lot lemme tell ya. The "majority" belong to the cult of pop culture, the cult of death, and... a cult I can't name in polite company.

    My little challenge of administering "witch tests" will depend on your location pretty heavily I'll admit. Urban areas, the coasts, etc. Yeah, you'll scarcely find a soul who'll pass. In fly over country/rural areas? You'll find few failures. I live in the latter, I am quite pleased that I am right about this especially among my own blood relatives (who are not all Catholic BTW). Do it my dude, and please report factual data back to me. My models and theories are always in need of additional data .
    Most anyone passes as a better believer in truth than you. I would agree that truth is God, but you can't separate that from moronic identity politics, and now you pick on brightly-dyed hair colors and rock music as being of the Devil in an act of ultimate unoriginality. And you still name-drop tons of second-class Lutheran and evangelical philosophers like that makes you a good Catholic. Excuse me, LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Most anyone passes as a better believer in truth than you. I would agree that truth is God, but you can't separate that from moronic identity politics, and now you pick on brightly-dyed hair colors and rock music as being of the Devil in an act of ultimate unoriginality. And you still name-drop tons of second-class Lutheran and evangelical philosophers like that makes you a good Catholic. Excuse me, LOL.
    My dude, whatever would make you think I hate "rock" music or think it is of the devil? On the contrary, you'll find no other religion more in tune with things like "heavy metal" than Christianity (though the Norse faith is a close second). I mean, it may be blasphemous of me to point this out, but it's hard to get more metal than "nailing your God to a stick" as it were. Also, just because a person hates me, my faith, etc. It does not mean they don't have a point to make or that they cannot be correct on a given point or even beat me in an argument. Humility is a virtue after all, one many in this world are sorely in need of learning how to exercise I'd say.

    Ya got me on the "danger hairs" though. That's a big ass red flag for me and the few times I acted to confirm boy howdy did I get my confirmation. The fact that they fitted the other aspects of the "stereotype" just further sold it. Show me a supermodel or body builder with blue hair or the like because I've yet to see one. It was universally sported by ugly women and soyboys/hipsters with SJW beliefs in my experience (bonus: many of them also had problem glasses to boot/complete the stereotype). Other fun fact I recognized, "Victim Mentality" and "Oppression Olympics" are not metal, hence why I've yet to meet or see an SJW metalhead.

    As a final point of observation, the first person to resort with conviction to ad hominems like you just did, in a philosophical context, has indirectly admitted defeat. I'll admit I may have gotten carried away here and there but if we were speaking face to face I'd have immediately apologized as I know that fact and can immediately spot/sense it when I'm communicating verbally with others. Weaknesses of text communication, you don't get to hear tone of voice, body language, facial expression, the look in their eyes, etc. To put this another way, you should have just posted quotes from the founders that were undeniably deist to make me look like a fool here. That was the winning play. Instead? You riddle me with insults, derision, and contempt. Come now, you can do better than this I know you can. I have faith in you, if nothing else, as a competent adversary. Please, live up to my expectations. You have no idea how hard it is to find good enemies/opponents in these areas .

    Back on topic though. Can you have a coherent "nation" without a common faith/public set of beliefs agreed upon and thus socially enforced by most all members? I argue not. Care to contest this or do we finally agree on something?
    Last edited by End; 11-29-2019 at 06:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    My dude, whatever would make you think I hate "rock" music or think it is of the devil? On the contrary, you'll find no other religion more in tune with things like "heavy metal" than Christianity (though the Norse faith is a close second). I mean, it may be blasphemous of me to point this out, but it's hard to get more metal than "nailing your God to a stick" as it were. Also, just because a person hates me, my faith, etc. It does not mean they don't have a point to make or that they cannot be correct on a given point or even beat me in an argument. Humility is a virtue after all, one many in this world are sorely in need of learning how to exercise I'd say.

    Ya got me on the "danger hairs" though. That's a big ass red flag for me and the few times I acted to confirm boy howdy did I get my confirmation. The fact that they fitted the other aspects of the "stereotype" just further sold it. Show me a supermodel or body builder with blue hair or the like because I've yet to see one. It was universally sported by ugly women and soyboys/hipsters with SJW beliefs in my experience (bonus: many of them also had problem glasses to boot/complete the stereotype). Other fun fact I recognized, "Victim Mentality" and "Oppression Olympics" are not metal, hence why I've yet to meet or see an SJW metalhead.

    As a final point of observation, the first person to resort with conviction to ad hominems like you just did, in a philosophical context, has indirectly admitted defeat. I'll admit I may have gotten carried away here and there but if we were speaking face to face I'd have immediately apologized as I know that fact and can immediately spot/sense it when I'm communicating verbally with others. Weaknesses of text communication, you don't get to hear tone of voice, body language, facial expression, the look in their eyes, etc. To put this another way, you should have just posted quotes from the founders that were undeniably deist to make me look like a fool here. That was the winning play. Instead? You riddle me with insults, derision, and contempt. Come now, you can do better than this I know you can. I have faith in you, if nothing else, as a competent adversary. Please, live up to my expectations .

    Back on topic though. Can you have a coherent "nation" without a common faith/public set of beliefs agreed upon and thus socially enforced by most all members? I argue not. Care to contest this or do we finally agree on something?
    Those are not "ad hominems" but me pointing out you aren't actually debating my points and are seemingly willfully misrepresenting them. Have a wonderfully paranoid and obtuse day! Please read some actual Catholic philosophy instead of terrible Lutheran Kierkegaard, and make Catholics look smart instead of dumb in the future!

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Those are not "ad hominems" but me pointing out you aren't actually debating my points and are seemingly willfully misrepresenting them. Have a wonderfully paranoid and obtuse day! Please read some actual Catholic philosophy instead of terrible Lutheran Kierkegaard, and make Catholics look smart instead of dumb in the future!
    Ever read the works of Saint Thomas Aquinas? Please do try to refute him. Your ilk have been trying for centuries. They've all failed.

    Please, point out how I've resorted to fallacies in arguing against you by the way. Again, this is a weakness in text communication. Show me where I've unjustly and, quite frankly, stupidly given myself over to my emotions without admitting that I did upon later investigation. I seek to beat you in rational debate so utterly that you relinquish you smug sense of superiority. Morality and Myth trump fact and reason in most every sense. Ought beats Is every time that conflict comes up. You do not seem to accept this fact for some reason. I must ask why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Ever read the works of Saint Thomas Aquinas? Please do try to refute him. Your ilk have been trying for centuries. They've all failed.

    Please, point out how I've resorted to fallacies in arguing against you by the way. Again, this is a weakness in text communication. Show me where I've unjustly and, quite frankly, stupidly given myself over to my emotions without admitting that I did upon later investigation. I seek to beat you in rational debate so utterly that you relinquish you smug sense of superiority. Morality and Myth trump fact and reason in most every sense. Ought beats Is every time that conflict comes up. You do not seem to accept this fact for some reason. I must ask why.
    Thank you for making everything you've been doing wrong glaringly wrong.

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