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Thread: Does America Need an Aristocracy?

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    Post Does America Need an Aristocracy?

    Please debate and discuss: I'm now of the opinion America needs an entitled aristocracy in order to save culture and individuality from being drowned under the values of the bourgeoisie. Whenever people look at countries they'd like America to be more like, the real similarity seems to be that they usually have an entitled aristocracy, though most don't also have royalty like England does. America already seems to have all the problems of aristocratic egocentricity in the form of a "bourgeoisocracy" which likes to brag about "hustling" 90-hour workweeks even goes so far as to idolize dropping out of college like Bill Gates. People aren't respected for staying in college and learning Chaucer and Milton and what have you. People think money is the end of all things when every rap fan knows money is literally called "means," and people don't like the idea of anyone being better than anyone else even in ways I'd consider unoffensive like preferring to watch Cinderella over Desperate Housewives, preferring to read A Picture of Dorian Gray over Fifty Shades of Grey, or preferring listening to Jimi Hendrix over an annoying middle school kid with an out-of-tune stratocaster. Even Yale students have internalized that value is money and money is value and stultify everyone in the conformity of postmodern values and philosophy. Aristocracy can't even be a bunch of Nazis or entitled brats if Sir Elton John is a literal knight. So, for the love of all that has non-monetary value, let's amend the Constitution and hand out titles to our Elton Johns.

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    Emerson wrote an essay called Aristocracy if anyone would like to discuss, and here are a couple of rambunctious but also correct articles I'm reposting.

    Aristocracy
    How the assault on American excellence at Yale–and all universities–threatens our democracy
    Yale professor: Some humans are better at being human

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    This is some Nietzsche fandom shit
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    I haven't even read this yet, but I'm leaving the link here to read later, bc I think this "tall poppy syndrome" may be fairly widespread and the root of what you're talking about
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a29...b51b7e25a0.pdf

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    HARRISON BERGERON by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

    since @squark mentioned it in the other thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I haven't even read this yet, but I'm leaving the link here to read later, bc I think this "tall poppy syndrome" may be fairly widespread and the root of what you're talking about
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a29...b51b7e25a0.pdf
    what the fuck even is a "non-intellectual achiever" lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    This is some Nietzsche fandom shit
    Not if squark agrees with me, since I don't think she's a Nietzsche fan, and anyways, calling everyone a Nietzsche fan for thinking things are better is the genetic fallacy (not to be confused with some people's inferior genes.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Not if squark agrees with me, since I don't think she's a Nietzsche fan, and anyways, calling everyone a Nietzsche fan for thinking things are better is the genetic fallacy (not to be confused with some people's inferior genes.)
    Welp, if you hold OP opinion, all the major reasons not to be a nietz fanboi are virtually obliterated.


    On average I'd think the number of people who have to fear being totally obsolesced by machines or beaten into lifelong despair and alienation by a starving job market and toxic corporate culture far outweigh the minority of cancer scientists who get...rocks thrown at them or whatever......for some reason.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I haven't even read this yet, but I'm leaving the link here to read later, bc I think this "tall poppy syndrome" may be fairly widespread and the root of what you're talking about
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a29...b51b7e25a0.pdf
    I've heard of this before, but the problem is hurting other people usually only hurts you. If the Nazis go destroy a bunch of modern art, it doesn't make Nazi art better in any way. If I go eat unhealthy food because healthy food is for dem snoody people, I'm poisoning myself and waiting for the other person to die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    what the fuck even is a "non-intellectual achiever" lmao
    sports, pop music, etc. And while I haven't finished reading it yet, looks like their thesis does not support the idea of intellectuals in Australia being considered "tall poppies" bc people tend to see them as more deserving.

    The results from the first
    study replicated and extended those from the pilot, as it was found that intellectual
    high achievers (e.g., academics, scientists, poets, and writers) were viewed less as
    tall poppies, and more deserving of their success when compared to non-intellectual
    high achievers (e.g., politicians, pop stars, sportspersons, tv celebrities). Thus, this
    indicated that intellectual high achievers were distinctive from non-intellectuals, and
    this was partly as a result of perceived level of deservingness.
    So, that's interesting. But, haven't finished it yet.

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    Oh, here's a related problem for the curious, people who seriously want to remove all job security for teachers and/or college professors, which means no one would get taught to read the things posted on this thread:

    Abolish Tenure?
    Do Nots and Dos When Defending Tenure
    A History and Defense of Tenure

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    No, we need an Idiocracy. It's just American.
    Does absolutely nothing, then dies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Welp, if you hold OP opinion, all the major reasons not to be a nietz fanboi are virtually obliterated.


    On average I'd think the number of people who have to fear being totally obsolesced by machines or beaten into lifelong despair and alienation by a starving job market and toxic corporate culture far outweigh the minority of cancer scientists who get...rocks thrown at them or whatever......for some reason.....
    Most jobs are BS jobs created to uphold the Needy Pyramid Scheme ("Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs") despite a virtually unlimited amount of free material resources being legally available in urban areas. I prefer calling postmodernity The Glut and the behavioral sink for a reason. Robots can't make people who are already obsolete obsolete, especially when they're OK with it due to social pressures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoodoo View Post
    No, we need an Idiocracy. It's just American.
    Are you sure? Or are you... Not Sure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Welp, if you hold OP opinion, all the major reasons not to be a nietz fanboi are virtually obliterated.


    On average I'd think the number of people who have to fear being totally obsolesced by machines or beaten into lifelong despair and alienation by a starving job market and toxic corporate culture far outweigh the minority of cancer scientists who get...rocks thrown at them or whatever......for some reason.....
    squark never expressly agreed, disagreed, or said she had an opinion at all though. She just expressed some degree of sympathy to the viewpoint, since she's probably pretty close to a cancer scientist who got a rock thrown at her since she actually works as an environmental scientist and Americans like metaphorically and occasionally literally throwing rocks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    squark never expressly agreed, disagreed, or said she had an opinion at all though. She just expressed some degree of sympathy to the viewpoint, since she's probably pretty close to a cancer scientist who got a rock thrown at her since she actually works as an environmental scientist and Americans like metaphorically and occasionally literally throwing rocks.
    No, I mean the idea you're suggesting is freaky. I don't see how you could think any overt aristocracy could possibly be "good" if you already have a problem with the middle-class, who themselves still have some but less exploitative power than an elite class would.


    I mean, the Horse Metaphor is good for debunking a few things.....but it doesn't account for the behavior of the de facto corporate aristocrats. Because there's solid evidence out there that corporate culture is designed to make people more miserable to profit, and keep them economically insecure and exploitable even when providing for them might be mutually beneficial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    No, I mean the idea you're suggesting is freaky. I don't see how you could think any overt aristocracy could possibly be "good" if you already have a problem with the middle-class, who themselves still have some but less exploitative power than an elite class would.


    I mean, the Horse Metaphor is good for debunking a few things.....but it doesn't account for the behavior of the de facto corporate aristocrats. Because there's solid evidence out there that corporate culture is designed to make people more miserable to profit, and keep them economically insecure and exploitable even when providing for them might be mutually beneficial.
    I think competing standards of elitism would cancel out the negative aspects of either individually, and I think it's intellectual cowardice that, when Americans give a list of better countries than ours on various metrics, they're willing to adopt foreign education systems and foreign economic systems even when they associate them with suicide and genocide, but not consider foreign systems of social ranking even while acknowledging we do have a system of social ranking already and while thinking inequality of outcome is desirable based on their impressions of human nature.

    While handing out titles might not be the answer and might even be a catastrophe in practice, I can't help but be reminded of the situation in American literature. Most of the world doesn't take American literature seriously and Americans don't take most of the rest of the world's literature seriously and the conflict shows itself exactly in Americans judging literature based on market value and ignoring literary prizes while other countries follow various prizes rather than book sales. People also refer to political movements around the world as "populism," especially if they're problematic. We clearly need an adrenaline shot of elitism to the heart even if aristocracy is as ridiculous as it sounds, which I don't think it is since entitled aristocrats don't all seem like a bunch of horrible people to me.

    The "middle class" is not actually a middle class. It's an upper class with bourgeoisie values, which has existed since the bourgeoisie was recognized as a group. I don't relate to bourgeoisie values that threaten to consume everything else like some kind of metastatic tumor and only value things according to what they cost and sell for on a commodity market. I don't want to live in a world controlled solely by merchants and laborers, yet I'm given no other option. Even if my education, connections, and skills wouldn't give me a title, I'd still rather live in a world that recognizes better and worse and strives for the good rather than one that sweats like a horse and runs like a horse but only produces horseshit.

    Here’s Why Almost Everyone Thinks They Are Part of the Middle Class
    Last edited by coeruleum; 11-05-2019 at 01:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    I think competing standards of elitism would cancel out the negative aspects of either individually, and I think it's intellectual cowardice that, when Americans give a list of better countries than ours on various metrics, they're willing to adopt foreign education systems and foreign economic systems even when they associate them with suicide and genocide, but not consider foreign systems of social ranking even while acknowledging we do have a system of social ranking already and while thinking inequality of outcome is desirable based on their impressions of human nature.

    While handing out titles might not be the answer and might even be a catastrophe in practice, I can't help but be reminded of the situation in American literature. Most of the world doesn't take American literature seriously and Americans don't take most of the rest of the world's literature seriously and the conflict shows itself exactly in Americans judging literature based on market value and ignoring literary prizes while other countries follow various prizes rather than book sales. People also refer to political movements around the world as "populism," especially if they're problematic. We clearly need an adrenaline shot of elitism to the heart even if aristocracy is as ridiculous as it sounds, which I don't think it is since entitled aristocrats don't all seem like a bunch of horrible people to me.

    Foreign social rankings are going digital in a way civilization has never really been able to deal with before. We've never had a revolt against something like Zhima Credit before; we don't know that it'll even be possible to back out from once we've dipped in its waters.
    I'd argue the computational dimension of a system like that means that humanity will never have a semblance of freedom again once the entire world has accepted such a system.


    If you value true biodiversity of thought, and you don't want an overt, institutionally-sponsored digital credit system like that (NOT an implicit one like facefuckbook or all the other crap from Silicon Valley, I'm talking the perfected, full-metal Legalist versions from the East) squelching out all other systems the world over with its monolithy, then I'd think our first priority should be preventing things like Zhima Credit from taking root over here, not paying attention to the number of annoying europeans who hate Catcher in the Rye for whatever reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    I think certain approaches and policies tend to hold people down in the name of equality (like the No Child Left Behind Act) lowering the ceiling while attempting to raise the floor. Trying to force demographic changes can have a similar effect, as once you've met your limit of one demographic or another you have fewer overall candidates to choose from. The politicization of achievement is also imo detrimental, focusing too much on race and gender. Telling some people that they only reached where they have because of some unseen privilege really discounts all the hard work and effort they've put into something, and telling others that they're super impressive because of their race or gender for achieving less, I'm not sure how that helps anyone.
     
    Although if you're a woman and beat all the men's world records in a sport, that's impressive and you're a very rare person. That might change in the future though if you can just decide you're a woman by telling people you are one. Bruce Jenner got a "woman of the year" award, should he also get the women's records and olympic medals?


    So, I'm not really a fan of cutting the legs off of tall people so the short people seem less short . . . but I can't really say that I'm a fan of some kind of elite aristocracy being promoted either. I would however like people to be able to take a little more pride in trying to do great things, and encouraging others to rise up to that level as well.

    Edit: This is what I am a fan of, the sentiments expressed below

    Our Deepest Fear
    By Marianne Williamson

    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
    Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
    It is our light, not our darkness
    That most frightens us.

    We ask ourselves
    Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?
    Actually, who are you not to be?
    You are a child of God.

    Your playing small
    Does not serve the world.
    There's nothing enlightened about shrinking
    So that other people won't feel insecure around you.

    We are all meant to shine,
    As children do.
    We were born to make manifest
    The glory of God that is within us.

    It's not just in some of us;
    It's in everyone.

    And as we let our own light shine,
    We unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
    As we're liberated from our own fear,
    Our presence automatically liberates others.

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    Now is the time we need Raver. At least we all have Black Mirror and all his archived posts.
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    Unless you're using a different meaning for either word than is commonly understood, the bourgeoise are the "aristocracy." Correct me if I misunderstand, but you're proposing either we:

    A) Restore a feudal-esque ruling class

    B) Same as above, but membership in this ruling class is merited by cultural merit or something like that.

    Whenever people look at countries they'd like America to be more like, the real similarity seems to be that they usually have an entitled aristocracy, though most don't also have royalty like England does.
    It should be noted that the "aristocracies" you mention don't actually possess much power insofar as each member is not also a member of the bourgeoise.

    America already seems to have all the problems of aristocratic egocentricity in the form of a "bourgeoisocracy"
    “The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships...” -Marx

    In other words, that society has adopted "bourgeois values" is proof that the bourgeoise already comprise the ruling class. How do you propose replacing them? And if we're going to get rid of one ruling class, why not abolish class stratification altogether?
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

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    @FreelancePoliceman Yes, that's what I mean. The American ruling class is so strongly opposed to feudal-esque ideas it's insane. I would expect the two groups to have a large amount of overlap, but I don't want the mighty dollar to become the almighty dollar, which it has. My dad has spent $100,000 on comic books and he doesn't seem to have read them. Buying comic books, also known as what Comic Book Guy in The Simpsons likes, solely as a form of social capital and not even reading them is the epitome of "late capitalism" also known as The Glut since I'm not sure capitalism is dying though something clearly is. Money has negative value when you look at it, so the rotting corpse of dead capitalism with insects feeding on it is about right.

    There's no way to abolish class stratification. Even Marx wasn't a Marxist at the end of his life. Also: why would you want to? If you force class equality on everyone, not only will all the people who like being superior die, all the people who like being inferior will die. I think we can only make one society of stratified people and one society of equal people and avoid trying to go to war at best.
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    @FreelancePoliceman I don't think that's a different meaning than commonly understood. I specifically referred to titles and aristocracy, not simply the upper class.
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    This reminds me: I wonder if the "gig economy" means the proletariat will gain on the bourgeoisie. There are already workers with more money than property owners: successful artists (especially the ones who make millions,) professors, programmers, etc. That's not the image "worker" brings to mind, and people always resent them, because people would rather make money influencing things than make money taking it from other people who are actually influencing things. There's a reason terrorists like to claim credit for attacks they didn't do and never deny credit for attacks they did. If only the bourgeoisie would be more like terrorists.
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    philosophers ftw

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    With psychology papers replicating less than 40%, dietary advice reversing after 30 years of fatphobia, macroeconomic analysis working worse than astrology, the appointment of Bernanke who was less than clueless of the risks, and pharmaceutical trials replicating at best only 1/3 of the time、
    You know what they all have in common? Fields that are entirely based on inductivism... overreliance on "statistics" and "correlations", without having explanations for why things are the way they are, and ignoring or downplaying of causation.

    If you say that something is "statistically significant" because it has "60% chance of being correct" (whatever that means), then of course the result is going to be mediocre with less than 40% success rate of replication.

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    A comment on the Yale guy . . . titles don't equal excellence. I don't have a problem recognizing someone's time and effort with a title but that isn't what distinguishes a person. Yes, recognize them for what they've done, but don't fail to recognize others in different fields as well. What a person studies, pshaw, that doesn't matter imo. Like the poem I posted where each of us can show our best and bring others up with us, I like a quote from this short book The Coming Aristocracy
    He may be a day laborer, an artisan, a shopkeeper, a professional man, a writer, a statesman. It is not a matter of birth, or occupation, or education. It is an attitude of mind carried into daily action, that is to say, a religion. It [the aristocratic spirit] is the disinterested, passionate love of excellence . . . everywhere and in everything; the aristocrat, to deserve the name, must love it in himself, in his own alert mind, in his own illuminated spirit, and he must love it in others; must love it in all human relations and occupations and activities; in all things in earth or sea or sky.
    And this is an argument against the Yale guy who seems to think having a particular kind of education is what matters. The following is a quote I much agree with. Pride in one's work, whatever that work may be and a striving towards excellence is not limited to any specific group of any specific kind of education.

    Anyone wishing to identify an aristocrat in the making must, as Henderson implies, ignore occupational categories, social status, wealth, fame, education, race, creed, or color. Look for a person, whether he be a janitor, waiter, gardener, mechanic, teacher, or in any other walk of life, who takes a "fierce pride" in his work: there is the aristocratic spirit in emergence! This spirit does not need him; he needs this spirit, and he knows it!
    So yeah, it's this spirit of striving for excellence that I think we need more of, and not titles or worship of a specific class of people. Striving to be and do one's best rather than striving for money, fame or power.

    Edit: Finishing up reading various links. Although not actually done yet. I don't agree with everything in the above link in this, my own post, but those things I quoted I heartedly do. Emerson in post #2 is too wordy for his own good and muddies things quite a bit but still merits consideration. When he says
    a pure reverence for character, a new respect for the sacredness of the individual man, is that antidote which must correct in our country the disgraceful deference to public opinion . . . we must come back to the repose of self-reverence and trust.
    I think he hits on something important: self-reverence and trust. Something that I've noticed is all the shame and guilt currently so popular - and hm, well I find it pretty gross. You have people apologizing for their very existence, being ashamed not for doing something wrong, but for merely existing. . .and it's well, I find it disgusting. Have some self-respect, you know?
    Last edited by squark; 11-05-2019 at 08:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    A comment on the Yale guy . . . titles don't equal excellence. I don't have a problem recognizing someone's time and effort with a title but that isn't what distinguishes a person. Yes, recognize them for what they've done, but don't fail to recognize others in different fields as well. What a person studies, pshaw, that doesn't matter imo. Like the poem I posted where each of us can show our best and bring others up with us, I like a quote from this short book The Coming Aristocracy


    And this is an argument against the Yale guy who seems to think having a particular kind of education is what matters. The following is a quote I much agree with. Pride in one's work, whatever that work may be and a striving towards excellence is not limited to any specific group of any specific kind of education.



    So yeah, it's this spirit of striving for excellence that I think we need more of, and not titles or worship of a specific class of people. Striving to be and do one's best rather than striving for money, fame or power.

    To be fair, I think the "kind of education" that suffers due to bourgeoisie careerism is "all education," but especially anything that seems feudal or European. His analysis is not right but the story about Yale students going like "slavery!" was amusing.

    I don't think titles make a person either but see the American revolt against literary awards, and also the truly bourgeoisie artist who doesn't see the point in actually sculpting when he can hire people. We could do with a lot more formal recognition of people even if Nietzsche fanboyism is not the answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Please debate and discuss: I'm now of the opinion America needs an entitled aristocracy in order to save culture and individuality from being drowned under the values of the bourgeoisie.
    This is where you go wrong: thinking that the problem is caused by the bourgeoisie and the lack of an aristocracy. You are leaving out the group that was created by the Industrial Revolution, i.e. the working class, or proletariat.

    The Middle Ages were the age of the aristocracy, the Modernity is the age of the bourgeoisie and Post-Modernity is the age of the working class. The Postmodern age is what we are currently heavily moving into, and it will be dominated by the culture of the working classes, that have, in an economic sense, been upwardly mobile, but culturally have pretty much stayed on imbecile levels of behaviors driven by a need for short term gratification. You can see it on facebook and twitter day after day.

    This is what drives current western societies: the bourgeois are losing cultural power in favor of working class. Now lots of working class people nowadays do not consider themselves working class, because they think they have been upwardly mobile relative to their parents and grandparents, but like I said, that's just in the economic sense. In the cultural sense, they still have working class attitudes.

    You do not believe me? Well, read this and I rest my case:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/05/u...ing/index.html

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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    You know what they all have in common? Fields that are entirely based on inductivism... overreliance on "statistics" and "correlations", without having explanations for why things are the way they are, and ignoring or downplaying of causation.

    If you say that something is "statistically significant" because it has "60% chance of being correct" (whatever that means), then of course the result is going to be mediocre with less than 40% success rate of replication.
    Now go get an academic job. Captain Academia to the rescue!

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    Nietzsche would probably say put down your master and slave moralities and become a free spirit.

    The opening post here tells me the person speaking doesn't even understand the words they're saying, what they individually want in life nor any direction, nor what culture is and the good and bad that it brings. It is the plaintive wail of a masochist looking for a master.

    It's quite tragic, please find yourself before you become more of a stooge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Nietzsche would probably say put down your master and slave moralities and become a free spirit.

    The opening post here tells me the person speaking doesn't even understand the words they're saying, what they individually want in life nor any direction, nor what culture is and the good and bad that it brings. It is the plaintive wail of a masochist looking for a master.

    It's quite tragic, please find yourself before you become more of a stooge.
    LOL

    Go be a "free spirit" covered in breadcrumbs, sweat, and grease in the basement.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    LOL

    Go be a "free spirit" covered in breadcrumbs, sweat, and grease in the basement.
    Said by a true house slave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Said by a true house slave.
    Why do you sit and fart resent the whole world for being inaccessible to you even after having read all your philosophers? I've also never heard of a "house slave" in Nietzsche, so for someone who feels the desire to not think for himself and measures his value by the names he drops, that's rather rich.
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    All I know is that we gotta bring back the habsburgs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    All I know is that we gotta bring back the habsburgs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I like a quote from this short book The Coming Aristocracy
    I'm reading this whole book and now it's discussing libertarianism and the Foundation for Financial Education. It's always such a paradox that free markets and socialism both end up sounding wonderful when defined by their advocates, yet I don't think anyone seriously identifies as a free market socialist. "Free markets" are always "the ability to buy and sell without coercion" and "socialism" is always "the workers own the means of production." People owning their means of production, setting the prices they'd like to sell at, and choosing the prices they'd like to buy at without outside parties interfering seems like a trivial position to me, yet no one seems to take it seriously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    I'm reading this whole book and now it's discussing libertarianism and the Foundation for Financial Education. It's always such a paradox that free markets and socialism both end up sounding wonderful when defined by their advocates, yet I don't think anyone seriously identifies as a free market socialist. "Free markets" are always "the ability to buy and sell without coercion" and "socialism" is always "the workers own the means of production." People owning their means of production, setting the prices they'd like to sell at, and choosing the prices they'd like to buy at without outside parties interfering seems like a trivial position to me, yet no one seems to take it seriously.
    Yeah, it went from talking about aristocracy in the first chapter, then maturity in the second, and then suddenly it's free market stuff which I wasn't expecting. As for comparing it with socialism, yeah both viewpoints are easily warped into something very negative even though each start out with good intentions and starry eyes. Things don't always pan out the way they imagine they will.

    I'm more libertarian in my viewpoints though, and it's because of what underlies the ideas of each - in one you are responsible for yourself and free to make your own decisions - I like that very much, in the other everyone is responsible for everyone and you're tied into the mass, and held down by them. It's that feeling like being back in school and having group projects with a single grade. . . great for the slackers and the unimaginative, not so great for everyone else. I'm not a worker ant, and I don't want to live in an ant colony.
    Last edited by squark; 11-06-2019 at 04:46 PM. Reason: fixed a word - grammar

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