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Thread: LIE's and Ne

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Default LIE's and Ne

    Ne (extroverted intuition) in LIE's is an unvalued 4D Demonstrative function. In other words, LIE's can use it well but don't care about it.

    I know a lot of LIE's, and what I've observed is that we have a weakness when it comes to the intuition of possibilities. When we are working well, Ne takes the form of investigating alternate realities before settling on the one (Ni) best (Te) possibility.

    But this can easily go very wrong when it comes to steady leadership. In particular, I find that I become distracted by a lot of alternative ways of doing things. LIE's seem to chase one course of action one day, then switch to something completely different the next day, and I can see that this has an incredibly detrimental effect on the impression we make with the people we work with.

    Most people just want a steady and predictable environment, and when things change every day, even if those "things" entail moving away from the active volcano (that hasn't erupted yet, and might never erupt), most people find this sort of thing to be incredibly disturbing.

    Discussion?

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    @Adam Strange I find I don't usually try a new method every day. Mainly if the methods work and are streamlined enough, I won't normally try and make radical changes to it. I do get bored of routine though. I love to try new things, especially at work. But the new things I try are usually not new ways of doing things, but new goals and proposing new ideas for new products.

    But yeah, I agree with you that most work environements are full of people who are static and don't wanna take risks, I don't see this as a quality though. Having a dynamic workplace with exciting goals - I see this as a quality. Nevermind that most people don't like it - they'll just have to deal with it. Especially if at the end of the day you're putting up results, what will they do, fire you for bringing money into the company?
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    I understand our (your and my own) Ne through intertype relationship

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

    I strive to speak (bridge the gap and establish relationship on a close level -Fi) with LIE on a friendly relationship level and they want to capitalize on my ideas (Ne), interests and write and sell a cookbook based on all the great recipes I come up with (Te).

    “ LIE's persistence in achieving goals, logical acumen, inexhaustible energy, his preference for creativity and innovation – as well as by the characteristic traits of this type: LIE's cheerfulness and optimism.”

    As for Ne:
    “ Both partners in this pair are of intuitive types – they are both romantics and dreamers, visionaries and theorizers, who find it easy and interesting to talk to each other and exchange information. ”
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Alonzo's Avatar
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    Yeah, in certain contexts, not reigning in my Ne can be somewhat of a "problem" for others (which can become a problem for me), particularly when I'm really interested and intrigued by whatever has captured my attention and imagination. New ideas, concepts, methods, and pathways are ever emerging, pushing me to adjust my overarching Ni vision or simply how I get there--the beauty of creative Ni is that it's flexible and amenable to context.

    However, these Ne related adjustments are always geared towards betterment and optimization, never simply for the sake of, as can be the case for Ne leads. If something can be improved upon (which might result in more gains), I honestly don't understand not going for it, even if to others, it seems as if I'm all over the place/unreliable/unpredictable/uncertain.

    Ultimately, I don't give a damn about what anyone thinks provided I get good results but it can certainly be frustrating to deal with Debby Downer motherfuckers who don't want to cooperate, who bitch and moan because they can't "see" it or are afraid of something "risky," who try to dampen your creativity, etc... and especially when they outnumber you. The good thing about being a LIE is that we're wired to bulldoze their asses if necessary. Lol

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    The only time that LIEs seem to take an externalized perspective of relational information is when their worlds are crashing about them; they seem to grow quiet in order to put the facts together so as to come up with alternate directions - often abusing substances to numb any sense of failure. In this state, they still don't seem to focus on consequence or long-term relationships (even though these can be rather obvious) as much as the simple hard facts at hand, and if they do formulate a plan, they rarely stick to it. It's as if fixed strategies tie their hands but this need for speed and quick fixes, so to speak, can be really frustrating for the people supporting LIEs......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    SHS perspective :

    Ne in LIE (it is creative to support Te): when things get hard change comes to play and therefore is confident to tackle new obstacles and is usually quite confident. Hence LIE may have lots of professions, hobbies, work environments. Goes against expectations and norms. Good experimenter and inventor. Likes to show off if no other way is available.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    SHS perspective :

    Ne in LIE (it is creative to support Te): when things get hard change comes to play and therefore is confident to tackle new obstacles and is usually quite confident. Hence LIE may have lots of professions, hobbies, work environments. Goes against expectations and norms. Good experimenter and inventor. Likes to show off if no other way is available.

    yeah this was always an aspect that I didn't like about model A, that the 8th function is unvalued and people "don't care about it", when in reality people use it all the time. LIE and EIE need new opportunities, LIE's always think about business opportunities, how to make money etc. for me as an LII, I always think about time, how long something will take, the future consequences of my actions etc. it's really a huge focus of your type.

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    Yes, I’ve concluded that is how the demonstrative operates, by unconsciously but constantly minimizing every potential weakness of the PoLR. What you are describing is the struggle of having a focus that is tangibly very removed from Si values (stability, comfort), and thus always making sure your Ne demonstrative has touched on every possible situation before moving forward to avoid facing an attack on vulnerable Si unarmed. It’s involuntary, I think, in a similar way to how an eye starts to water or shut in response to something getting close to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    yeah this was always an aspect that I didn't like about model A, that the 8th function is unvalued and people "don't care about it", when in reality people use it all the time. LIE and EIE need new opportunities, LIE's always think about business opportunities, how to make money etc. for me as an LII, I always think about time, how long something will take, the future consequences of my actions etc. it's really a huge focus of your type.
    I've been hating how I get a flood of connections and opportunities. I want to get to one executable vision. The Ne-ing is necessary, but it's not necessary to degree I can do it, imo. I do value Ne, but in a sorta theoretical way..or a 'not that excited about it but it's clearly important' way...but if I'm in a situation where I'm less able to execute directives/methods I design or 'see'....the Ne-ing my mind does is kinda upsetting..

    I guess it carries less of a psychological reward with it for me

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    I think constantly agitating for different ways of doing things increases fitness and adaptability of the org. But I can see constantly swapping the agreed-upon course of action for something else would be not only annoying but kill the solution you're working towards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asd View Post
    They are more willing to engage it, and to hypothesize and come up with possibilities for the fun of it for an entire conversation, than an ILI is. Actually ILI seems to be immune to Ne like it’s a non-entity, a nuisance.
    ILIs are Ne ignoring.

    LIE 4DNe-

    2. Realization Function -I — Opportunity Intuition
    It is hard for him to endure despair and hopelessness. He will happily
    engage in any activity as long as he’s confident in its success. He likes to
    test himself in various activities, and therefore often changes hobbies,
    professions, places of work, etc., until he finds what he needs. He is
    curious and often goes against the norm of expectations.
    He likes to experiment, go unchecked, and act as an inventor. LIE totally
    dedicates himself to a favorite business. He is vain. If his abilities are not
    appreciated, he is inclined to oppose others.

    even in EIEs ... Ne is immediately noticeable to someone on the outside. similar situation in my case, other ppl immediately notice my Si but I didn't for years. Its like background radiation or "stuff one automatically does but isn't conscious of doing". Around the same strength as the lead function, but one has a "meh" attitude towards it. Its like ppl say my grilling skillz are amazing e_e, but I literally don't give a fuq if they enjoy the food or not.. I just cook according to my subconscious tastes by default for fun and don't think much of it. I also get annoyed if ppl don't take care of their health and are not aesthetically pleasing to my eye lol or if they live in a "sterile" environment.. but to actually bother with taking care of their health and needs or getting them into shape is not something I ever do outside of sharing information on how to go about it. If its my space, stuff and health I just automatically alter it to fit my idea of how things should be without much care about what others think in this regard.
    Last edited by SGF; 03-24-2021 at 06:28 AM.

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    Talk about creative function, I realize that I use Ti as much as I use Te, even when I don't like Ti very much. I just see it as an necessary tool to explore things further.

    About my ignoring function Ne, I like Alpha Ne more than Delta Ne. Maybe because I'm creative subtype, I love both Se and Ne activities (love Se more), but I have dificulty doing both of them, I can't use them as naturally as I use Ni, Te and Ti, and I need someone or something to awake my Ne/Se to be use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moharu View Post
    Talk about creative function, I realize that I use Ti as much as I use Te, even when I don't like Ti very much. I just see it as an necessary tool to explore things further.

    About my ignoring function Ne, I like Alpha Ne more than Delta Ne. Maybe because I'm creative subtype, I love both Se and Ne activities (love Se more), but I have dificulty doing both of them, I can't use them as naturally as I use Ni, Te and Ti, and I need someone or something to awake my Ne/Se to be use.
    Hope you find this useful.

    ILI function strength: Ni=Ti>Te=Ne

    ILI TI:

    2. Realization Function +L — Structural Logic (Ti)
    Her work is done strictly on technology, slowly and clearly, delving into
    all the details. The Critic is scrupulous and meticulous to the point of
    being pedantic. Business activity and diligence are inherent in her only in
    the system of formal relations when order and executive discipline prevail.
    She strives to have a set of necessary tools for performing her work, both
    in everyday life and in business matters. She doesn’t like to borrow
    anything and is independent and self-sufficient. Law-abiding and
    responsible, she does not have dodgy or criminal inclinations. In business,
    she is reliable and leads an honest game.

    ILI Ne:

    8. Controlling Function +1 — Opportunity Intuition She worries that
    her awareness and intellectual abilities rarely lead to the expected result.
    She knows a lot, but it’s difficult for ILI to think up something new for
    herself. She is skeptical about the prospects of new initiatives and bold
    ideas, and typically presents things as more complicated than they really
    are, though she can inspire hope in the desperate and disappointed. She
    strives to try herself in various activities to prove her abilities; however, it
    is rare for her to become a comprehensively-developed personality. She
    studies all the novelties in her particular field of interest. She knows how
    to find a new application for old things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    ILIs are Ne ignoring.

    LIE 4DNe-
    and act as an inventor. LIE totally
    dedicates himself to a favorite business. He is vain. If his abilities are not
    appreciated, he is inclined to oppose others.
    it is painful to see one's own type called out as vain.

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    All humans are vain. Struggle in vain against an uncaring world created by an uncaring god. Enjoy your struggle. I know I do.

    "If his abilities are not appreciated, he will be upset." Who wouldn't?

    LIE Ne would be:

    In the absence of an application of an idea to some useful end goal, LIEs usually will lose interest in it.

    Mine is:

    Instead of relying on systematic bases of knowledge, ILIs often fall into a constant cycle of dynamically reevaluating their informational outlook (ie "this may change, but at the moment i sort of am inclined to think the facts suggest that droog is better than blinth, despite these plausible alternative interpretations").

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    it is painful to see one's own type called out as vain.
    it's painful but it's a bit true.

    It's a good contrast to ESIs who are way too self-critical. ESIs learn how to be a bit vain about their abilities and LIEs temper down.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    ....It's a good contrast to ESIs who are way too self-critical......
    ESIs aren't nearly as self-critical as are EIIs because they don't often place themselves within the context of a group and look at the overall impact and implications of their own personal behaviour. They simply dwell on their failures (often too much and become depressed or lose self-confidence) and analyse how they could have arrived at a better outcome that would be more favourable to them. They look at the facts as they see them and don't often consider how others may see them. Unfortunately, LIEs tend to do the same thing when they've failed and are feeling low even though they're usually quite aware of their impact on others when they're attempting to do the deed.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    ESIs aren't nearly as self-critical as are EIIs because they don't often place themselves within the context of a group and look at the overall impact and implications of their own personal behaviour. They simply dwell on their failures (often too much and become depressed or lose self-confidence) and analyse how they could have arrived at a better outcome that would be more favourable to them. They look at the facts as they see them and don't often consider how others may see them. Unfortunately, LIEs tend to do the same thing when they've failed and are feeling low even though they're usually quite aware of their impact on others when they're attempting to do the deed.

    a.k.a. I/O
    So what's your contribution with this post, to be honest, I don't see how I can use it except that you're saying that EIIs are better than ESIs.

    Man up, usually your posts are much more insightful
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    So what's your contribution with this post, to be honest, I don't see how I can use it except that you're saying that EIIs are better than ESIs.

    Man up, usually your posts are much more insightful
    I was referring to LIEs turning into pseudo-ESIs when under stress and the limits that such a transformation holds; it also indirectly implies that Ne is a perspective that LIEs will never have and that they probably don't need; tunnel vision serves them well by enabling controlled decisions. ILEs go into most endeavours with all options open and usually they're not nearly as productive as LIEs because they often won't choose until their backs are up against the wall and decisions are made in a panic.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Vanity is a pointless thing to be worried about. It's like being worried about the brown stuff that comes out of your body sometimes. Get over it. It's incredibly important to get on with and move along in your life.

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    My Ne convinced me several times that I didn't need to put up with my ex-bosses impulsiveness or drama because I had A-Z alternatives to what I was doing at that time careerwise.


    I paid off the first couple of times until it didn't.

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