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  1. #481
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    Reposting here, because.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    I only vaguely remember it, but I had a dream in which I married my crush and then he turned into a literal monster hell-bent on eliminating all of humanity, so I had to kill my former-husband-now-monster-enemy to save the world.

    If I believed that dreams had deeper meaning (which I don't), I'd say I unconsciously believe that—upon growing closer to my crush—I would discover he's a "monster" and a menace to society.
    So, does this explain why every Fi-dom ESI I've ever dated will go out with me once and then starts to postpone further dates?

    It happened again yesterday with the latest ESI I met. Dinner at a nice restaurant (bill was $106 for two, or nice enough), and then "I'm pretty busy with work. I guess I filled my time with work and other things, like volunteering, etc. I guess I didn't want to have any free time for relationship distraction. Don't take this personally."
    WTF? Of course it's personal. It doesn't get any more personal than this.
    "Don't take anything personally about relationship distractions. Everyone has their personal focus and timeline."

    Evidently, her timeline is forever while she waits for evidence that I'm a "monster" and a menace to society.

    TBH, 2D Ni without an emergency to galvanize them is a pain in the ass.

  2. #482
    Quiet Riot ✊ Lady Lunacik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    My impression of Ragnar is that he is a clear SLE, but that’s from Google images and one brief scene I watched.

    Remember, LIE and SLE have the same dimensional Fi and Fe.
    Did you really just use that logic as a basis for your impression?
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  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroplasticity View Post
    Did you really just use that logic as a basis for your impression?

    Yes. I'm a guy who does Ready-Fire-Aim all the time, so I tend to make stupid mistakes based on too-little data. Sometimes, this enables LIEs to win, but often we just look like we have no idea what we are doing. (Until you look at the record.)
    The scene I was referring to was a scene from Vikings that someone on this forum posted here, in which some woman, I assume she's Ragnar's wife, leaves the village (maybe with her son?) in a cart pulled by a horse, and this Viking guy goes after her and starts crying in front of her, saying he loves her, and she tells him that she's tired of his disrespect so she's done with him.

    Since I don't watch TV and I certainly don't know who these characters are, I just assumed that this scene was from some great story arc of love between the main characters and that those were the characters to whom you referred. Maybe I was completely wrong there, but if that guy was Ragnar, then I could see an SLE acting that way, possibly, if he realized that he was in danger of losing someone very near to him.

    Having 1D Fi means that our feelings are very low-res. Black, or white, not many shades of gray.

    If I'm wrong about my assumptions, please ignore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Reposting here, because.

    So, does this explain why every Fi-dom ESI I've ever dated will go out with me once and then starts to postpone further dates?

    It happened again yesterday with the latest ESI I met. Dinner at a nice restaurant (bill was $106 for two, or nice enough), and then "I'm pretty busy with work. I guess I filled my time with work and other things, like volunteering, etc. I guess I didn't want to have any free time for relationship distraction. Don't take this personally."
    WTF? Of course it's personal. It doesn't get any more personal than this.
    "Don't take anything personally about relationship distractions. Everyone has their personal focus and timeline."

    Evidently, her timeline is forever while she waits for evidence that I'm a "monster" and a menace to society.
    Ugh, groan. I'm sorry -- how frustrating, and I'm frustrated with my identical for that weird message...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    TBH, 2D Ni without an emergency to galvanize [them/us/myself] is a pain in the ass.
    I *completely* agree, lol.

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    not a conversation, just sharing something: LIE dad and LIE brother are doing a 2-day avalanche preparedness training course in the mountainous west which is so very, very them of an activity. i find the knowledge-gathering adorable, honestly, and am glad to not participate at that high of a level of physical risk-taking (the opportunities that the course could open up for them in terrain, that is), too. they both snowboard recreationally.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Yes. I'm a guy who does Ready-Fire-Aim all the time, so I tend to make stupid mistakes based on too-little data. Sometimes, this enables LIEs to win, but often we just look like we have no idea what we are doing. (Until you look at the record.)
    The scene I was referring to was a scene from Vikings that someone on this forum posted here, in which some woman, I assume she's Ragnar's wife, leaves the village (maybe with her son?) in a cart pulled by a horse, and this Viking guy goes after her and starts crying in front of her, saying he loves her, and she tells him that she's tired of his disrespect so she's done with him.

    Since I don't watch TV and I certainly don't know who these characters are, I just assumed that this scene was from some great story arc of love between the main characters and that those were the characters to whom you referred. Maybe I was completely wrong there, but if that guy was Ragnar, then I could see an SLE acting that way, possibly, if he realized that he was in danger of losing someone very near to him.

    Having 1D Fi means that our feelings are very low-res. Black, or white, not many shades of gray.

    If I'm wrong about my assumptions, please ignore.
    Sorry, I was in a shitty mood that day and was too impatient. It's been lingering on my conscience ever since, and I feel bad. My emotional state blinded my judgment a bit, I didn't realize I was being moody til hindsight.
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  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Evidently, her timeline is forever while she waits for evidence that I'm a "monster" and a menace to society.
    TBH, 2D Ni without an emergency to galvanize them is a pain in the ass.
    Yes, and couple that with Ne-polr and Se-creative, so they begin prodding you like some sort of laboratory animal until you bark. Immediately they interpret this as the ultimate proof that you must be a monster and thus see their worldview confirmed. They then do their infamous vanishing act, never to be seen again.

    Not so fun fact, only a couple of years ago dogs who were suspected to be aggressive were put in cages and prodded with sticks until they would bite. If they did so, they would be killed immediately, because they were deemed a danger to society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Reposting here, because.



    So, does this explain why every Fi-dom ESI I've ever dated will go out with me once and then starts to postpone further dates?

    It happened again yesterday with the latest ESI I met. Dinner at a nice restaurant (bill was $106 for two, or nice enough), and then "I'm pretty busy with work. I guess I filled my time with work and other things, like volunteering, etc. I guess I didn't want to have any free time for relationship distraction. Don't take this personally."
    WTF? Of course it's personal. It doesn't get any more personal than this.
    "Don't take anything personally about relationship distractions. Everyone has their personal focus and timeline."

    Evidently, her timeline is forever while she waits for evidence that I'm a "monster" and a menace to society.

    TBH, 2D Ni without an emergency to galvanize them is a pain in the ass.
    Why do you think she thinks you're a monster/menace?
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  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroplasticity View Post
    Why do you think she thinks you're a monster/menace?

    I don't think she thinks I'm a monster/menace. I think she's AFRAID I MIGHT BE a monster/menace.

    What I've seen of ESIs is that they have a really hard time predicting the future (Low Ni), or extrapolating present events into any of the possible futures (Ne-PoLR). This means that they seem to rely almost entirely on past performance because, to them, the future is entirely unknowable.

    If you can't pick up three hints from a chaotic environment and use them to predict where everyone will be in a year, you have to make your judgements on the basis of past histories. ESIs remember everything because, if they forget something, THAT ONE THING could be their undoing.

    So, she doesn't know me and she can't predict very well what I'll do. She's therefore waiting, waiting, waiting and gathering more and more information to see if I kick dogs or am mean to little children. Until then (and that time when she feels safe is probably Never), she's looking for evidence of me being a monster in hiding.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I don't think she thinks I'm a monster/menace. I think she's AFRAID I MIGHT BE a monster/menace.

    What I've seen of ESIs is that they have a really hard time predicting the future (Low Ni), or extrapolating present events into any of the possible futures (Ne-PoLR). This means that they seem to rely almost entirely on past performance because, to them, the future is entirely unknowable.

    If you can't pick up three hints from a chaotic environment and use them to predict where everyone will be in a year, you have to make your judgements on the basis of past histories. ESIs remember everything because, if they forget something, THAT ONE THING could be their undoing.

    So, she doesn't know me and she can't predict very well what I'll do. She's therefore waiting, waiting, waiting and gathering more and more information to see if I kick dogs or am mean to little children. Until then (and that time when she feels safe is probably Never), she's looking for evidence of me being a monster in hiding.
    Mm. Ehh, I personally don't relate to this much. I recall everything simply because...well, I have a good memory. I also especially recall things that emotionally impact me, because...well, it was impactful, therefore it stuck with me vividly. If something felt threatening, upsetting, etc. it's very personal to me, and I recall the way I felt. It's like...if a bee stings you, lol...you're going to remember "be careful with bees." I think it's merely part of natural survival mechanisms.

    I'm constantly extrapolating, this was always one of my natural strengths. I've always called it math with human behaviors simply because it really is like seeing a formula: A + B = you're going to come out with C. I'm not always right, but more often than not, I am. I talk about that a little HERE. While terrible with numbers and traditional math, I've found that once numbers are changed out with humans, behaviors, the psyche/general inner workings of mankind, and even animals, I'm suddenly excellent with mathematics style "logic." Identifying the next [behavior instead of number] in a pattern sequence, finding the missing [motive/behavior instead of number value] in an equation such as 76 + a + 16 = 154, except, instead of numbers, it'd be some equation of words, actions, choices, feelings, etc...so that I wind up identifying the unspoken variables...which results in situations such as mediating between others, like, "uhh, what they're actually trying to say is..." because I know the person and understand them well enough to do that. Extrapolation is a large part of that. I make predictions such as "So-and-so is going to end up distancing/drifting off, I think, based on demonstrated (words/behaviors) x, y, z." What I don't do, is place much TRUST in that, as I know that it's uncertain and the variables are able to alter the present trajectory things are on. But yeah, humans/relationships are extremely predictable to me. All of this is also relevant to how I figure things out that people don't expect me to, such as, having a crush that would be the very last person you'd probably expect them to. Those moments are always hilarious. Them: "I have something to tell you." Me: "Oh, you have a crush on so-and-so?" Them: "HOW THE FUCK DID YOU KNOW?" Lmaoo. Other ways it factors in, "Yeah, you're approaching this situation all wrong...you're wanting y, but your actions aren't those that'll lead you to y, these will lead you to z, because a+b without c = z, not y. If you want y, you have to do x rather than b, because blah blah."

    I prefer to call it seeing the trajectory someone is on, though, not extrapolation. The difference is that extrapolation entails assuming that an existing pattern is going to continue in the same pattern in the future. Trajectory, on the other hand, entails using *currently present* factors in order to predict where that combination of (traits, behaviors, choices, etc) will ultimately take you...AKA what is the outcome of the present variables combined? This is a more accurate predictive method, as it is better attuned to changes that do occur within the patterns. Don't get me wrong, though......when there's a sudden change in someone's patterns, I notice. Big time. And I will also push for answers. That's probably annoying to some people, but I don't particularly care, because it has made alarms sound in my mind. "I see this change, what does it mean? What's going on?" Sometimes I can figure it out, though. If I know the person on a personal enough level.

    So, with all of that said...I'm a complete skeptic that those pertain to "bad N," or if so, I'm unconvinced that 1D N is really as terrible as you're describing it. Maybe you're underestimating it a bit. I will say, though...outside of human/relationship dynamics, I can't do this well whatsoever. It's always more of a personal psychological assessment kind of skill. Business trends, stocks, etc....LOOOOOOOL uhhhh....*points out a distraction, makes an excuse, and walks away*

    Anyway, I was wondering, since...honestly, to me it's quite clear that you're a decent person, and it was easy for me to tell that from quite early on. I wondered if it might be that your socialization style/methods are sending messages you don't mean to give, rather than her thinking something may be wrong with your character.

    EDIT:
    Or, perhaps...since you mentioned having difficulties with understanding boundaries before, you are talking about some things that maybe shouldn't be talked about so early on? Something like that?
    Last edited by Lady Lunacik; 01-19-2022 at 10:54 AM.
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    I used them interchangeably above, but that was a mistake.

    Extrapolation: "The hospital cafeteria always serves soup on Fridays, so on Friday, they'll probably serve soup."

    Trajectory: "The ingredients here are crushed tomatoes, tomato paste, onion, garlic, kale, chicken stock, cream, salt, and red pepper...this is going to be a soup."

    The better you know someone personally, the more accurate you can be. Especially when you can use both extrapolation and trajectory combined. "These are your past patterns, these are your current [variables], this is where you're headed."

    It's pretty short term, though...very much based on past/present, with insights into short-term future outcomes. Nothing like, "in 5 years from now..." it's...more like some vague sense of time (I actually don't ever put a solid time frame on it or even think about the time at all, and would probably be entirely wrong if I tried to), but it's generally something that occurs within the next few weeks/months of when I've called it.
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  12. #492
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    If I understand you correctly, following someone's trajectory sounds more like deduction à la Sherlock Holmes, while extrapolating is more ( Ni ) style pattern recognition and prediction, like connecting the dots? To me the kitchen examples you provide sound more like the difference between propositional logic ( Ti ) versus deduction ( Te ), however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    What I've seen of ESIs is that they have a really hard time predicting the future (Low Ni), or extrapolating present events into any of the possible futures (Ne-PoLR). This means that they seem to rely almost entirely on past performance because, to them, the future is entirely unknowable.
    Literally what i've been going through this month in navigating the next, new, different stage of my program in school. EII friend - "and the thing about being a student is that you're in a perpetual state of transition." but this stage REALLY IS new, and the only 'model' i've had for it is how my ILI friend experienced it. but going through it without dominant 4D Fi and complicated-ass feelings that can temptingly direct you entirely is very different, so this model has been of limited utility. 💪

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    If I understand you correctly, following someone's trajectory sounds more like deduction à la Sherlock Holmes, while extrapolating is more ( Ni ) style pattern recognition and prediction, like connecting the dots? To me the kitchen examples you provide sound more like the difference between propositional logic ( Ti ) versus deduction ( Te ), however.
    I think everyone uses extrapolation and deduction to an extent. I think the difference comes in with one's focal point, though. That was Jung's entire definition of Feeling vs Thinking. People conflate feelings in the everyday sense of the word with Jungian Feeling, but Jung adamantly stressed that Feeling was a rational function just as much as Thinking is. The difference between Thinking and Feeling, according to Jung, was simply that Thinking prioritizes factual and impersonal factors, while Feeling prioritizes the personal and "the needs of the people." Honestly, if going by nothing but that, I'd sometimes type as a Logical type due to being abusively conditioned to prioritize the impersonal throughout the first 24 years of my life (so up until 6 years ago, although the conditioning stuck until about 2 years ago, with some of it still being worked past). Due to my unique background, I'm probably more balanced between both, as I do believe I started off as being ESI. Ever since I was little, I have always been more human/relationship-centric. I think becoming more T or Logic type was something I did to adapt to my environment, where F things were harshly punished and T things were "the only right way" to be.

    Anyway, rabbit trail aside, the point I'm making is that F is not emotions, T is not thinking, and both types do process things rationally. Ts just prioritize facts over the emotional effects, while Fs are more inclined to take what would be seen as a compassion-based or personal approach. In other words...because all of this revolves around human emotions and the personal realm as a strong point of focus, while the impersonal, etc. are disproportionately out of focus (applying this same kind of reasoning to those makes me lost), this would all be feeling related rather than thinking related. It is the rational exploration of the world of emotional nuance, personal behaviors, relationship dynamics, and so forth.

    Let's put it this way...Socionics talks about Ethical types offering duals/others assistance in navigating psychological distance, etc. If F was purely emotional, with no rationality, how in the hell would they be navigating those kinds of relationship dynamics?
    Last edited by Lady Lunacik; 01-20-2022 at 09:51 AM.
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