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Thread: ESI/LIE Conversations

  1. #321
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    This isn't an ESI/LIE conversation, but this thread seems to be the most appropriate place to say this without starting a new thread.

    At the moment, I have two ESIs in my life. One is an ESI-Se, and the other is an ESI-Fi. They feel very, very different to me, despite me liking both of them a lot.

    The ESI-Se feels more like an Activity partner, as if she were an SEE, except she's not as flighty as SEEs.

    The ESI-Fi feels more like an EII Semi-Dual to me, except she's able to influence me to do things, which the EIIs are not.

  2. #322
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'm redecorating my house and I'm using an ESI-Se to help set the taste of the place. I can do the structure, but I need help with the appearance of things, and that's what she does very well. She moves furniture around and throws stuff out if it isn't useful any more. We're not at the stage yet where we're buying. She wants everything out first.

    One thing I absolutely hate doing is paperwork. As a consequence, I have boxes and boxes of financial records sitting around, unorganized except roughly by year. The ESI wants to get rid of them, and I'm fine with that, as long as I don't need something for a future duel with the IRS. The ESI said, "I can't decide what to keep and what to throw out. Only you can do that."

    "Right," I said, despondently. I'm not looking forward to spending time sorting through old papers when I could be making new money.

    "Do I have to stand over you to get you motivated?", she asked.

    "You know," I said, poking her, "I belong to a personality forum, and there are descriptions written about the two of us together where you are in a dominatrix costume standing over me with a whip."

    She laughed. "They miss how this feels. I'm trying to help."
    Adam, I am enjoying reading this thread which I haven't seen in awhile. The IRS papers: they are going to be DONE soon. At least put them somewhere poised for trash, for as soon as you have the reality confirmed that there will be no income tax anymore. : )
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  3. #323
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Adam, I am enjoying reading this thread which I haven't seen in awhile. The IRS papers: they are going to be DONE soon. At least put them somewhere poised for trash, for as soon as you have the reality confirmed that there will be no income tax anymore. : )
    @Eliza Thomason, that's exactly what we did. We filed the papers and bagged the receipts by year and threw out everything that was more than five years old.

    Now, with every passing year, we will throw out the five-year-old papers. Feels good.

  4. #324
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    ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think the whole world is going wrong and people are shit.

    LIE-Te 8w7: I'm the opposite. I think that we can fix the world and that most people are basically good.

    ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think people like YOU are what's wrong with the world.

    LIE-Te 8w7: Maybe you can fix things. After all, you're the only person I listen to. You're the only person who seems to be able to get me to do things I don't want to do. Or stop me from doing things I shouldn't do. In return, I can provide you guys with some optimism and an assured, secure future.

    ESI-Se CP 6w7: You can't do that. No one can do that. I don't need you in my life.




    Editor's note: This is pretty typical of ESI-LIE conversations I've had, especially when the LIE is e8 and the ESI is e6. This is almost certainly why I'm still single.

    Let me tell you one thing: LSI's are much more reasonable. They, at least, run on logic.

    No, I'll add a second thing. Compared to most LIEs, I'm a fucking idiot.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-28-2021 at 02:53 PM.

  5. #325
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    I hired an ESI-Se Decorator to fix my house, because I sure as hell can’t do it alone. She hasn’t worked specifically as a paid decorator before, but I’ve seen the interior spaces that she has arranged, and they are both appropriately Gamma, which is important to this boy who was raised Delta and wants to get back home, and they are extremely comfortable and tasteful. IMO.
    Plus, she’s available for a while and we get along.
    Today, she pointed to a wall and said, “That has to go.” So my son and the other Destructor Crew members got the chop saws and sledge hammers and they all took down the wall. It was a huge amount of work.
    After the ESI left for the day, my son said, “Dad, you were right about her not having many other jobs. She’s amazed that I get here early and work late. She’s clearly not used to working.”
    I said, “Well, it’s not because she doesn’t want to work.”
    “No, I didn’t mean that. She jumps right in and she’s learning how to wire and lots of other stuff. But she gets worn out after a few hours. I guess it’s because she has a Master’s in Psychology.”
    I said, “It’s because she hasn’t had to work manual jobs. Her parents are well off and she’s not really had to work. Plus, she’s been supported by the State for the last few years.”
    He said, “She seems like a Flower Child.”
    He was referring to her loud laugh and innocent, wide-eyed approach to life.

    “Here, let me show you something.”
    I went over to a bookshelf and got down a book.
    “When your mother and I were newly married, before you were born, dude, she gave me this book and we read it together. It has a test in it.” The book was Keirsey’s Please Understand Me.
    I opened the book to a bookmarked page and said, “Here. Read these two paragraphs.”

    Next to the title The ENTJ “Fieldmarshal” was my name, penciled in. A result of one of the tests we took. Under that, it read:

    “The ENTJ is a natural “fieldmarshal,” that is, he’s itching to get his hands on several “armies” so that he can marshal his forces and conduct the “war” as it should be conducted. If our ENTJ is in charge of any kind of enterprise, however small, his temperament dictates that he run it as he would his armies – with an eye to long-term strategies and their derivative tactics, logistics, and consequences. In startling contrast to this, the fieldmarshal is enamored by the “flower child,” the bucolic artist ISFP, tranquilly ensconced next to Walden Pond! Perhaps the ENTJ wishes a spouse who will share with him or her the quiet of the forest and field far from the madding crowd, thus separating home from work by a great, insulating distance.”

    “Flower child”, my son said aloud, and stopped.

    “When I first read that passage, newly married to your mother, I thought it was bullshit. I said, “This book is complete bullshit.” I couldn’t imagine me being with a woman who was a flower child.”

    “Well,” he said, “you said something to her a few days ago that really pissed her off. She was mad all day.”

    "Do you remember what it was?"

    "No."

    “Neither do I. I expect that will happen to you with your Duals, too. Duality is not a guarantee that people will get along.”

    “OK. Enough of this. You ready to fix these pipes?”

  6. #326
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ...
    I went over to a bookshelf and got down a book.
    “When your mother and I were newly married, before you were born, dude, she gave me this book and we read it together. It has a test in it.” The book was Keirsey’s Please Understand Me.
    I opened the book to a bookmarked page and said, “Here. Read these two paragraphs.”

    Next to the title The ENTJ “Fieldmarshal” was my name, penciled in. A result of one of the tests we took. Under that, it read:

    “The ENTJ is a natural “fieldmarshal,” that is, he’s itching to get his hands on several “armies” so that he can marshal his forces and conduct the “war” as it should be conducted. If our ENTJ is in charge of any kind of enterprise, however small, his temperament dictates that he run it as he would his armies – with an eye to long-term strategies and their derivative tactics, logistics, and consequences. In startling contrast to this, the fieldmarshal is enamored by the “flower child,” the bucolic artist ISFP, tranquilly ensconced next to Walden Pond! Perhaps the ENTJ wishes a spouse who will share with him or her the quiet of the forest and field far from the madding crowd, thus separating home from work by a great, insulating distance.”

    “Flower child”, my son said aloud, and stopped.

    “When I first read that passage, newly married to your mother, I thought it was bullshit. I said, “This book is complete bullshit.” I couldn’t imagine me being with a woman who was a flower child.”

    “Well,” he said, “you said something to her a few days ago that really pissed her off. She was mad all day.”

    "Do you remember what it was?"

    "No."

    “Neither do I. I expect that will happen to you with your Duals, too. Duality is not a guarantee that people will get along.”

    “OK. Enough of this. You ready to fix these pipes?”
    I like that book. I also like Gifts Differing, a lot. They are the best of MBTI. In my experience, using the best of MBTI, such as these books, to gain undeerstandign of MBTI, leads to a different understanding of MBTI than you get from online sources. Specifially, I think the 4 letter types tend to be the same as Socionics when you learn MBTI by books, and if you learn MBTI online, you tend to have issues translating MBTI 4-letter types directly into SOcionics 4-letter types - you instead focus on the use of specific functions, and may translate an ISTj into an ISTp. Do you find that they tend to transfer directly, as they do for me? For me, whatever MBTI type I gave a person is alsways turns otu to be the same in Socionics.

    But Socionics is FAR superior to MBTI of course.


    You son's reaction sounds consistent to SLI for me. My SLI husband also listens openly to new information, but he tends to hold to "conservative", or previously-held-view, as long as possible, particularly concerning long-held views, and he is relieved for any inconsistensies he perceives that prevent him from having to adopt a new view. [in the above case, I can see how your son would need to see more interaction to understand that an ESI being able to be miffed all day does not normally threaten the dual relationship (business or otherwise) but may instead it may show she feels safe and comfortable enough to be miffed. Particularly in a situation where you are paying her!] My husband does use the new information he receives to, in his own time, with his own contemplation - that includes his own reasearch as well as new information that comes to light, to change his viewpoint. He has surprised me a couple of times with this, when, after he has resisted some new idea or view I have presented, I just take the view of "each to his own", and continue to accumulate more knowledge in the new direction or mystery, and he hangs back and watches (kind of covertly, with no pressure from me) and he researches in his own way. Then he sometimes has, in big ways I did not expect, fo rhis very own reasons, later concedes fully or partially to the new direction of thought or views that I am taking. Any departure of views that remain I feel make sense in what I know of him.

    I love how it ends up we are on the same road but gettign to our destination in different ways. It's like we are trying to uncover what the truth is on parallel but differning paths. In that way it is like when we watch a movie together. In a given scene, if he makes any comment, it is always evident that we were looking at COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things in the SAME scene. Every time.

    (I meant to write just about how your son is like my SLI husbsand, but I veered off into Duality. I find your duality stories heer intersting because I know duals in the other Quadras but not Gamma.)
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  7. #327
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    I’ve been infrequently dating a married-but-separated ESI-Fi for about 16 months. The first ten months were spent exchanging texts on Match.com. We go out to eat and go for walks. It’s very platonic, but she’s the only Dual I’ve run across who is both attractive and even slightly interested in dating. Although our “dates” are about 3-5 weeks apart.

    Two weeks ago, she texted me and said she wants to go to Chicago for a couple days, together. I thought, “Great! This could be fun.”

    I have some trouble understanding her texts. She’s ESI-Fi, and she thinks the world is centered on herself. For example, she’ll say things that are snippets of conversations she’s had, but will omit the context. I’m supposed to just know what she means.
    So I know a lesbian ESI-Se who is sympathetic to my attempts to date the ESI-Fi and I sometimes use her for translation. I’ll show her a text from the ESI-Fi and will tell her what I want to say and she suggests the phrasing.
    Shades of Roxanne.
    But it has gone great. The ESI-Fi becomes more fluid and responsive in text when the author is the ESI-Se. Lol.

    Anyway, I sent the ESI-Fi an itinerary of things to do in Chicago and didn’t hear from her for a week. I asked the ESI-Se to review my text to see if my approach was wrong and she said it seemed generally ok.

    ”But she hasn’t responded to me for a week!”, I said.

    ”Yeah, I’ve noticed that,” said the ESI-Se, with a hint of disapproval in her voice.

    Having 1D Fi means I’m fucking clueless when it comes to knowing what I can expect from romantic partners. So maybe I’m not asking too much if I expect an SO to actually respond to me when I speak. I’ve read that Gottman says this is the cornerstone of good relationships, but I’m not putting this into practice.

    Maybe the ESI-Fi is not the girl for me.


    *EDIT*
    Now that I think about it, she’s displaying classic “avoidance” symptoms. I told myself that she was just getting over her trust issues that resulted from two bad marriages. She seems to like being hugged when I’m there. But you know, even avoidant people need love. Just not very often, and on their own limited terms.
    I already went through an Avoidant relationship with my ex-wife. There’s no need to repeat this.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-31-2021 at 01:43 PM.

  8. #328
    The Evening and the Morning Star Eudaimonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I’ve been infrequently dating a married-but-separated ESI-Fi for about 16 months.
    I read this and knew immediately this wasn't going to end well. I don't want to seem patronizing but when I see your posts on here I always feel a little sorry for you. You sound like someone who wants to be close to someone but can't quite figure out who you should trust.

    You really show me suggestive Fi in action.

    Having 1D Fi means I’m fucking clueless when it comes to knowing what I can expect from romantic partners. So maybe I’m not asking too much if I expect an SO to actually respond to me when I speak. I’ve read that Gottman says this is the cornerstone of good relationships, but I’m not putting this into practice.

    Maybe the ESI-Fi is not the girl for me.
    This further illustrates my point.

    Now that I think about it, she’s displaying classic “avoidance” symptoms. I told myself that she was just getting over her trust issues that resulted from two bad marriages. She seems to like being hugged when I’m there. But you know, even avoidant people need love. Just not very often, and on their own limited terms.
    I already went through an Avoidant relationship with my ex-wife. There’s no need to repeat this.
    It sounds like from what I read she isn't interested in anything long term. Just my 2 cents.

  9. #329
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    I don't know if I agree that this means it's ending or she is disinterested. Maybe. But you definitely never want her to feel sorry/pity for you at all. And also this is certainly the most wrong time of all to correct her on her relationship skills. I do think you just have to sit tight and wait. If you press in, she will pull away. Especially if she is getting scared because of the reasons she gave (her past). So let her be alone since she seems to need that now. It's hard, but it's better than pushing her further. If she sees you are giving her space, she can get comfortable with having the space she wanted, but the big gap should eventually make her curious, and lead to a desire to close it a bit. The curiosity will escalate if she contacts you and finds no sign that she caused any desperation. So just be patient, and seek peace in the waiting.

    If you want to understand this romance-dance with one of a pair pulling away from the other, and you want to do well the only thing that works to get her back vs. push her further away, get the book "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson, and he will explain this strategic situation perfectly. See reviews on Amazon. A lot of happy readers. It will give you confidence and hope while you wait. The "technique" in this book saved my sis-in-law's marriage when she was at a simlar crossroads, with a husband turning bored/disintersted (it got him back, and they are still together many years later). Also I recommeneded it to someone here on 16T, when she was unhappily in the same spot, and she got the book, did what was instructed and she said it worked exactly for her! I was so glad for her. (I forget her name here, but i think fox-something). Álso the author tells of how he learned this technique by his wife using it on him in their early dating years, and they are still together many, many years later, too. (Don't let her, or maybe ESI-Se, either, see or read the book. Mystery is everything with this.)
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 08-03-2021 at 10:07 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  10. #330
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    I told this ESI-Se female that I've been occasionally dating an ESI-Fi who doesn't seem very interested in maintaining the relationship. I've been going slow because the ESI-Fi has had two bad marriages and a bad divorce lawyer, etc., etc. and maybe she needs time to heal and to begin to trust again.

    The ESI-Se said "Bullshit. I think you should date someone else, rather than wait around forever for something that's never going to happen."

    Wow. Timber said that "things happen fast around LIEs", but I think he was referring to work stuff. I'd say that relationship stuff happens fast around ESIs. But I guess if you are an Fi-dom, you spend a LOT of time processing information about relationships. So, you can have the answers ready when needed.

  11. #331
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    I have another series of thoughts to add, regarding your thoughts/concerns that dear ESI-Fi may be an Avoidant Type, which you would understandably want to avoid, since you had a previous long experience with that, which you naturally desire to avoid repeating.

    What I want to say is that it likely should take thought, observation, and much time getting to know her to determine whether she is an actual Avoidant Type, or, simply a normal type experiencing needs/desires to act avoidant at times, especiallyt at times when things naturally trigger her past problems with the previous negative relationships.

    These triggers are naturally going to happen when she is considering getting deeper in intimacy, especially when/if she is considering a first big step. Which she must have been considering as a desirable step to take at the moment when she suggested an overnight trip with you. But her having second thoughts about getting in deeper in your relationship means a hesitation is normal, considering her past she needs to resolve. [She likely triggered big fears with her suggestion that would/might be a natural going-deeper step, fears that her strong Fi now needs to process alone, resulting in her "rudely" not communicating with you about this change of mind, and whatever it involves for her).

    And likewise, you feeling really bad, and even feeling a bit of a sense of betrayal (betrayal is the most painful thing there is) when this hurdle is suddenly and inexpicibly thrown in front of mid-race* is totally understandable, but, for the strategic reasons explained in great detail in the above-mentioned book, your next move in this game of romance is very important, and you want to make big efforts to hide that particular natural reaction from her at this time, keeping your cards close to your chest and wearing your poker face.

    If/when she gets over this trigger, IMO, the next triggers that show up should go much easier and easier, and be less and less severe, once she knows what your response to her pulling away is (which is: "easy", and makes her feel safe). For someone with past relationship trauma it is very important not to push the start of intimacy; you need to be extremely patient about that and properly respond to her unforeseen (should be temporary) barricades she throws up like this. Because she IMO is very likely in active healing, thorough your relationship, it is probably a very good sign that triggers happen, because they need to come out in order for her to heal from them, so that she can move forward. Which is the goal!

    But you hold a Trump Card, one that can easily result in the Big Jackpot, and that is that this is a Dual relationship, and duals, being in proximity and just simply being your easy, normal authentic selves in each other's company is the most psychologically healing of all relationships. Really! Your relationship and time spent together, (and likely, your friendship with the lesbian ESI-Se is also working this way for you two), even when just texting, is more deeply healing to you both, in a way better, way faster, and way more effective way than would be CBT therapy sessions or expensive long therapy with a psychiatrist! And way more fun.

    I think I have heard you express before the desire not to wait about too long for the intimacy in a relationship to begin, so you will consciously need to develop patience here. But the healing will happen with the two duals spending time together. So just let her take her natural Agressor role of your pair, and play the majestic Queen, who is the final authority on exactly when all things are to happen, and you, her Loyal Subjert, who embraces his humble role, wait for her authorative word (timing, etc.) without questioning it, and I think, when it begins to go deep, you will be in it for good. And you will rejoice that it was well worth the wait!

    [Hopefuly I haven't jumped to any wrong conclusions here, invalidating what I have opined on, since everything I know about this relationship is just from this thread!]

    I want to emphasize my point that while certain episodes may make her seem to be an Avoidant Type, what you are seeing may possibly only be the necessary avoidant behaviors displayed while she is working through triggers to the past that must come out in order to be healed. So there is a difference between avoidant behaviors and Avoidant Personality, and you don't want to misunderstand whatever the reality actually is. Two very diffrent things. One to be avoided, one to be patient about while it is worked through.

    Not that I know a lot about Avoidant Personality. What I do know a lot about is Narcicisst Personality Disorder, having lived life with an NPD for many years (the vast bulk of those years, ignorant of the NPD reality, making me the perfect victim to it). Besides that experience, I have read very extenisvely the intellectual and respected works of Dr. Sam Vaknin, NPD, on the subject, and in more recent years, I have watched piles of expert Dr. Ramani videos on NPDs, so I truly do know the NPD subject. And to segway the above topic and this, we live in Narcissistic times, with much of our world run by NPDs, so we are surrounded, and like Avoidant Types vs. avoidant behaviors, it is also easy to confuse NPD types with just narcissistic behaviors (which we all have, to one degree or another). (see in red, below!)


    *which, in turn, makes you mindful of other inexplicable things she has done, like, as you described above, telling a thing while leaving out the entire context. Which is confusing! But that one is easy. You ARE her Dual, and you can laugh it off and be frank and tell her how confusing this is to you, like, "Hey! You left out the context! How am I supposed to get that?!"

    Which is also a very loving thing, because behind that frank statement, you are actually saying: "I am listening to you, because you are so important to me, in every way, and I want to understand everything you say, because everything about you matters to me. So please, enlighten me to your ways, O my Dual, who is opposite of me in every way/function, excepting our j/p preference!"
    ___________


    Yes, it takes work for Duals to get off the ground, and for the connection to be sealed, but at least you have been granted the Socionics aforeknowledge that once the connection is made, it becomes harder and harder, practically impossible to sever. It's a pretty permanent tie! Worth the work for sure! So I discern that maybe for you a big part of this work will be patience, particularly magnified and painful to give at times such as these. To sacrfice (or put off), to die (temporarily) to your great desire by granting her the great gift of patience, is heroic. And who doesn't love a man who lays down his life for her? Really, that is the stuff of the ultimate romantic hero.

    ___
    And so now, in this little paragraph, I want to take the opportunity to segway into a statment that I am glad to have the opportunity to make, because it is the truth, and I like to state the truth. The LYING MEDIA of our times - - and that Media of today is in fact exactly PERFECTLY described 2000 years ago, by the Apostle John, in the Book of Revelation, in the form of a [I]very[/] strange creature, so strange that it all these centruies of Bible study by the most excellent and most intelligent theologians of all times it can ONLY be recognized in these very days - - THAT lying Media, that likes to repeart and repeat what they KNOW are LIES**, because, they know that if you repeat a lie often enough people will think it is the truth, and they are unrepentant liars and they can only lie. One of the many, many lies they like to repeat and repeat, so that you can believe it on that basis alone, is that President Donald J. Trump is an NPD. He is NOT, which is why NO true NPD expert is EVER interviewed saying that he is an NPD. Everybody has narcissitic behaviors. SLEs included. Our President Donald J. Trump is NOT an NPD.

    **The Media has been on this lying mission with determined unrelenting constancy for decaades. They are the enemy, and they do not have our good in mind. Never, never forget the most timely quote, nor the context of when and where it was made, of former CIA Director William Casey's "We will know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."
    _________

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    ESI: *existential worry about climate change*
    LIE: Everything is going to be fine.

    Sometimes I don't want to share my worries with LIE because I feel brushed off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Great View Post
    ESI: *existential worry about climate change*
    LIE: Everything is going to be fine.

    Sometimes I don't want to share my worries with LIE because I feel brushed off.

    Would it be better to hear that we'll all be dead in fifty years and there's nothing, absolutely nothing, that you can do to change that fact?

    Forty-three percent of humanity is busy punching holes in the hull of the Titanic as it is sinking.

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    When I and my "ideal" ESI-Se CP e6w7 female Dual go out to buy stuff, people assume that we're together. Personality-wise, we're an almost perfect match.
    She just told me that she likes it when her SO's are sexually aggressive.

    So what's stopping me? Not the fact that she sleeps with women. I don't care about that.

    Maybe it's the fact that she's 26 and I'm older than her father. That might be it.

    FML and my ethics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Would it be better to hear that we'll all be dead in fifty years and there's nothing, absolutely nothing, that you can do to change that fact?
    Yeah, you do have a point. Makes me wonder if I'm expecting too much.

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    I’m almost done with working with an ESI-Se on redecorating my house. She set out a vision that I like and appreciate and it’s being implemented.

    She said she wants to work with me on future projects. I’m up for that because we work well together.

    She’s kind of a perfect Socionics and Enneagram match for me, and she’s got a Secure attachment style. She said she feels protective of me and I definitely have her back. I told her that if I had two wishes, they would be that I would be 29 and she would be straight. We both laughed at the impossibility of this.

    Well, I was laughing on the outside, anyway.

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    I've been paying the ESI-Se redecorator a lot, compared to what most people make.

    I'm 1D Fi so I have trouble assigning value to things, including my own actions. Worst case, I've asked myself if I'm grooming her for future sex, but I don't think the evidence bears this out. I'm attracted to her ESI-ness and her mental health, and not her body, believe it or not. Besides, she's a lesbian so there's no real potential there.
    Instead, I think I'm paying her a lot to keep her around (she's e6w7 and tends to wander, and God, I like having her around), and also to bring her up closer to my own level of earning. (Gamma is a democratic Quadra.) Not everyone realizes just how much money there is out there, so I'm helping her get used to making a lot. I'm not sure how much she's going to make as a social worker, which she's training for.

    She said that, as part of her training, the U of M is going to send her to Detroit to work with disadvantaged people. Her father is an immigration lawyer and her mother is a therapist, so she has been immersed in a culture of caring.

    I said to her, "I respect that. Helping people, that is. Personally, I could help them, but I don't want to."

    She thought about that for a minute. "That's because you're an asshole."

    The funny thing is, while I am an asshole, or can certainly play one well*, I didn't feel like she was exactly condemning me when she said that.



    *

    No, come to think of it, I actually, naturally, am an asshole. It's "human" that I'm trying to play well.

    I told her, in a moment of weakness, that my being an asshole is why I need her around; to mitigate my worst tendencies. She scowled at me and then she laughed.

    I'm falling in like with her. Friendship is when you know exactly who the other person is, and you like them anyway.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-20-2021 at 02:07 PM.

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    pingas

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    I don't normally obsess over what people think of me, but I can't seem to let go of the fact that an ESI 6w7 called me an asshole and said that I'm what's wrong with the world.

    Not that she's wrong. No.

    I'm just wondering if I should try to be a better person. How would that even look?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I don't normally obsess over what people think of me, but I can't seem to let go of the fact that an ESI 6w7 called me an asshole and said that I'm what's wrong with the world.

    Not that she's wrong. No.

    I'm just wondering if I should try to be a better person. How would that even look?
    What did you do/say that made her say that?
    R

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    I’ve been sinking into depression for the last few days. I can feel it. The ESI-Se who said I’m an asshole is going to start grad school this week and that will be the end of our contacts for a while. Months, maybe a year.

    She called me this morning and said she starts school tomorrow. She sounded nervous. She said she wants to come over for an hour and talk about life, the universe, and everything.

    My depression just vanished. She has said that being around me calms her down. Maybe she needs me the way I need her.

    If you could bottle Duality and sell it, you’d be a very rich individual.

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    LIE: "All my life, I've been trying to excel. I've always wanted to be better than the average person and to stand out in some way. Maybe this was due to being told by my parents that I didn't measure up to their expectations, but in any case, I've had to work really hard to achieve the things I've done."

    ESI: "What you really need is simple affirmation that you're worth spending time with."

    LIE thinks, "Damn, she's right. That's the essential lack that runs through my entire life. But that's not all I need. I also need a smart, attractive babe who thinks for herself."

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    The ESI-Se won't be seeing me for a few weeks or months while she starts grad school, so she came over with a recorder to capture my voice.
    (I once had a GF who, when I was out of town, would sleep with my unlaundered T-shirts.)

    ESI-Se, turns on recorder: "OK, tell me what type I am."

    LIE-Te: "You're an ESI-Se and an enneagram 6w7 with a Secure attachment style, and are also extremely smart and healthy."

    ESI-Se: "What do all those things mean?"

    LIE-Te goes into a long explanation of information exchange and the enneagram. ESI-Se gets bored.

    ESI-Se: "I think it's time to do something."

    LIE-Te: "You look like you hate this personality stuff."

    ESI-Se: "I do hate it. I hate the idea that people are placed into categories. That they can't be anything that they want to be."

    LIE-Te: "I used to think that everyone I met was a special snowflake. That they might be anything at all. I quickly saw that Socionics does put them into defined categories in many respects. Not in all respects, but in enough to be useful."

    ESI-Se: "OK. Enough. Time to work."
    She turns off the recorder.

  24. #344
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    LIE, to a female ESI he hired to do some work on his house: "You know, when we go out to buy stuff, people think we're a couple."

    ESI, relying to a male LIE who is older than her father: "Yeah. A totally age-inappropriate couple."

    LIE, laughs: "Right."

    LIE thinks, "Neither one of us is making any PDAs. We're just comfortable and supportive with each other. Duality is a strong drug. It might be the model for what most people unconsciously imagine a good marriage would look like, where the partners are also best friends."

  25. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think the whole world is going wrong and people are shit.

    LIE-Te 8w7: I'm the opposite. I think that we can fix the world and that most people are basically good.

    ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think people like YOU are what's wrong with the world.

    LIE-Te 8w7: Maybe you can fix things. After all, you're the only person I listen to. You're the only person who seems to be able to get me to do things I don't want to do. Or stop me from doing things I shouldn't do. In return, I can provide you guys with some optimism and an assured, secure future.

    ESI-Se CP 6w7: You can't do that. No one can do that. I don't need you in my life.




    Editor's note: This is pretty typical of ESI-LIE conversations I've had, especially when the LIE is e8 and the ESI is e6. This is almost certainly why I'm still single.

    Let me tell you one thing: LSI's are much more reasonable. They, at least, run on logic.

    No, I'll add a second thing. Compared to most LIEs, I'm a fucking idiot.

    Thanks for sharing your story, I find it very enlightening.

    Regarding Climate Change, I too would be offended when people say "everything will be alright", because such thinking undermines the need to take action. Rather I would hear about solutions to convince me why things might end okay. Or even better yet, how I can take action myself to contribute to a solution. I'm not an ESI, but as a fellow Gamma those are my two cents.

    Also, you're repeatedly saying that you don't want to help people who you don't know. But how can you be sure of that, if you haven't tried it yet? Te-users need a meaningful goal to strive towards too. If not, we tend to earn a lot of money, only to burnout when we realize money is meaningless when we have no-one to share it with.
    If anything, message her that you would like to see the work that she's doing, not just hearing about it. And tell her that you would like giving it a shot yourself. Take a weekend off to visit her in Detroit and join her at her work with disadvantaged people.That way you show to her that you're making an effort to see things from her perspective as well. You might even redeem yourself from "asshole" status when you start connecting to the people you help and find out how rewarding it can be.

    Heck, you might even come across some nice lady yourself there. Work, work, work definitely has not been the place to find the person you're looking for, and dating apps and websites tend to be rather superficial. So, there's no better place to find the person who you're looking for than when you explore that which your Dual loves most of all. If anything, it would be a good opportunity to nurture your Fi, which you seem to have neglected for quite long.

    Sorry, if I sound rather direct, but I'm a LIE and Dutch. Directness is in my culture, I'm afraid, haha. ��

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    I was talking to an ESI-Se interior decorator a few weeks ago. I’ve been spending money at a remarkably high rate to completely remake my house, and I told her that I was going to be broke at the end of the month.

    ESI-Se: “You’re either flush or you’re flat broke.”

    LIE-Te: “Uh, yeah... Actually, I have plenty of money. I’m just getting to the point where I’ve spent all the money I mentally allocated to this project. Obviously, I underestimated.”

    My SLI-Te son chimed in. “He says he’s broke, but he always comes up with the money.”


    I guess that’s how it looks from the outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    “He says he’s broke, but he always comes up with the money.”
    Is this not the most concise explanation of an LIE?
    With mind distracted, never thinking, "Death is coming,"
    To slave away on the pointless business of mundane life,
    And then to come out empty--it is a tragic error.
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  28. #348
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    LIE-Ni male / ESI-Se female



    In another video, they were talking about how they handle issues in their life.
    him: "We're still going through stuff."
    her: "It's easier to ride the waves now."
    him: "But it just seems like it's never-ending, there's always something new."
    her: "It's called resilience. You need to foster your resilience so it doesn't effect you as much."
    him: "...Kind of hard."
    Last edited by toska; 09-11-2021 at 09:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by toska View Post
    LIE-Ni male / ESI-Se female



    In another video, they were talking about how they handle issues in their life.
    him: "We're still going through stuff."
    her: "It's easier to ride the waves now."
    him: "But it just seems like it's never-ending, there's always something new."
    her: "It's called resilience. You need to foster your resilience so it doesn't effect you as much."
    him: "...Kind of hard."

    Link to that video?
    @toska, I think you got these two typed correctly. The guy acts just like an LIE-Ni whom I know, and the girl is very close to an ESI-Se that I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Link to that video?
    @toska, I think you got these two typed correctly. The guy acts just like an LIE-Ni whom I know, and the girl is very close to an ESI-Se that I know.
    Right on, it was around 16:30.

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  31. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Link to that video?
    @toska, I think you got these two typed correctly. The guy acts just like an LIE-Ni whom I know, and the girl is very close to an ESI-Se that I know.
    She might be EII alternatively but some interesting Te-Fi moments regardless.
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  32. #352
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    This isn't exactly a conversation, but it is an interaction.

    My relationship with an ESI-Fi is doing a slow-motion crash and burn, even though its platonic. This is bothering me a lot.

    This lesbian ESI-Se who I think is almost perfect has helped me a bit in texting the ESI-Fi (so the ESI-Fi won't be shocked by the natural differences between an ESI whom she understands, and an LIE who seems like a space alien) and she's seen her picture, but she thinks the relationship is doomed and advised me to date someone else.

    Well, I thought. I have someone in mind, but I'm not a girl.

    Man, the ESI-Fi just isn't ready for a relationship, and I'm feeling sorry for what might have been. I did something that I never would normally do; I took a screenshot of a naked porn actress who looks almost exactly like her, and now it's on my phone's picture gallery. I've been meaning to delete it to restore my self-pride, but I haven't yet.

    Yesterday, I was going to show the ESI-Se pictures of my place in the country to point out where she can have a bonfire for her birthday party, and we were both looking at my phone when the gallery came up with the tiny picture of the naked porn star amongst the scenery pics. It's exactly the kind of picture that a guy might take of a beautiful woman whom he's just had sex with. She's sitting there looking nice and warm and Fi introspective.

    Shit, I thought. I tilted the phone away from her and cleared my throat and said "Wait a minute. Let me find it." But I'm pretty sure she saw it. She may have mistaken it for a picture of the ESI-Fi, since they look almost identical.

    After I found the right pictures, I handed her the keys to the place and she thanked me. Then she looked at me and made a quick phone call to a male friend of hers.

    Now, I don't care if she has sex with women, but I'm insanely jealous of the fact that she's hanging out with guys. I try to be cool about this, but she's smart and a feeler and I think it's prudent to assume that she knows how I feel about her and how I feel about her with other men.

    So now I'm wondering if we were testing each other? "Hey, do you like me? Am I the most important person in your life, or don't you care that I might be seeing someone else?

  33. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Now, I don't care if she has sex with women, but I'm insanely jealous of the fact that she's hanging out with guys. I try to be cool about this, but she's smart and a feeler and I think it's prudent to assume that she knows how I feel about her and how I feel about her with other men.
    I also think it's safe to assume that she knows how you feel about her, the question is, why is it she continues to hang around you so much? That's what I would be trying to answer.

    Also, do you think she is sexually interested in these men? Why does it make you jealous?
    With mind distracted, never thinking, "Death is coming,"
    To slave away on the pointless business of mundane life,
    And then to come out empty--it is a tragic error.
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  34. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaimonia View Post
    I also think it's safe to assume that she knows how you feel about her, the question is, why is it she continues to hang around you so much? That's what I would be trying to answer.
    A mercenary person would say that I'm a good source of resources for her. I've bought her art in the past and I hired her this summer to redecorate my house.

    A romantic person would say that we are Duals and she just feels more sane and comfortable around me.

    I will assume that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaimonia View Post
    Also, do you think she is sexually interested in these men? Why does it make you jealous?
    I don't think she is sexually interested in these men, but I'm afraid that at some point, she's going to decide she's not a lesbian and will marry one of these guys. This probably indicates a complete lack of understanding of sexuality on my part, but that's how I feel.

    I mean, she sleeps with women, but my first sexual adventures were with guys, so sexual identity can be complicated and it can evolve until we sort out what we really want.

    These guys make me jealous because they have something that I never will; age appropriateness. I think jealousy is a feeling that people get when they wish for the unattainable.

  35. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    A mercenary person would say that I'm a good source of resources for her. I've bought her art in the past and I hired her this summer to redecorate my house.

    A romantic person would say that we are Duals and she just feels more sane and comfortable around me.

    I will assume that the truth is somewhere in the middle.



    I don't think she is sexually interested in these men, but I'm afraid that at some point, she's going to decide she's not a lesbian and will marry one of these guys. This probably indicates a complete lack of understanding of sexuality on my part, but that's how I feel.

    I mean, she sleeps with women, but my first sexual adventures were with guys, so sexual identity can be complicated and it can evolve until we sort out what we really want.

    These guys make me jealous because they have something that I never will; age appropriateness. I think jealousy is a feeling that people get when they wish for the unattainable.
    Oh wow, I didn't know you used to be gay.

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