Sharing resources, because your partner shares the same goal as you, so helping him is the same as helping yourself and vice versa?Originally Posted by Adam Strange
The fun part of this manga is, though, that the ESI is the robot, not the LIE. He is very self-conscious of it.
Last edited by Armitage; 03-18-2022 at 09:16 AM.
Yes, @Armitage, exactly.
Members of your Quadra all share the same values, and so present minimal dissonance towards each other.
Duals provide the best level of support to each other without competing in each other’s areas of expertise.
Finally, there are lots of Duals out there, but not all of them share your goals. The only way that two people can walk side-by-side for any length of time is if they are going in the same direction and share the same goals.
At that point, helping them get to their goals helps you get to yours.
Well, I think I found an academic mentor for myself, to mentor me through my dissertation planning, and he's in my same discipline -- who is actually a dual. Dropping by here to release that update into the ether <3
@wonderwoman, the only thing to be cautious about will be your Dual’s tendency to approve of your work more than most reviewers will, and his tendency to criticize your work less.*
”To be happy, marry a Dual. To be a philosopher, marry a Conflictor.”
*Well, the other thing to worry about is that he might start seeing you as a valuable partner, but that’s a different kind of problem.
Congrats, @wonderwoman!
Thank u so much, @Armitage!and for the wise words, @Adam Strange!
LIE, on a date with an ESI: "I'm pretty good with knowing facts and with planning the future, but I'm not very expressive. I don't show my feelings."
ESI, waiting for the hostess to seat us: "Oh, no! You show your feelings. I can tell."
LIE: "What? How?"
ESI: "Sometimes, when you're talking, your voice goes up and down."
Lol.
Not the response I'd get from an SEI or an LII.
"Duals: Built for each other, not for another."
These following conversations aren't verbatim, but I think it might be valuable to share them for future reference.
On Friday, I met a new ESI and, for some reason (Victimhood? IDK) I told her that I am very, very good at bullshitting. I'm good at painting a rosy picture to get people on-board with whatever it is that I want them for, and please don't look behind the curtain. She seemed unfazed at this news and just laughed.
Well, no one can say that she wasn't warned. On the other hand, ESIs are so full of doubt that she's going to be doubting everything I say anyway.
Yesterday, the ESI-Se whom I hired last summer to start redecorating my home came over to say she was available for more work, if I could use her. (Of course I can. Her benefits far outweigh her costs.) She told me in passing that she made more money in two months working for me than she's made in any previous year. She had a huge tax bill, and it was all due to me. Lol.
I told her that I, on the other hand, despite having had a great year, paid no taxes at all last year. 4D Te vs 1D Te.
I should have stopped there (maybe before there), but when an ESI is around, my mouth just has a mind of its own. I told her that my sociotype is one of the best earners, and hers is one of the worst earners, but she has a moral sense that is way beyond mine. My type is also great at bullshitting, and her type is great at doubting, and her constant questioning of me and my motives is what keeps me honest.
Truly, some of the stupidest things I've done were done because I did not have effective constraints on my actions or my spending. An ESI would fix that, I think. I find that I actually listen and (reluctantly) obey ESIs when they make a good case. So I need an ESI as a defense against my own worst tendencies.
I think that, while ESIs don't seem to make much money, as a rule, their role is to control the way that the money is spent.
I told the ESI-Se this, and she got this thoughtful expression on her face.
The ESI-Fi that I dated last summer told me that the reason I'm paying the ESI-Se to redecorate my house is that I hope to fuck her. (Her words. ESIs have 3D Se.) I said I wasn't against having sex with the lesbian interior decorator, but that wasn't my main reason for paying her well.
I have two main reasons for paying her well. One, I want to lend a hand to a person who is going to be financially challenged for the rest of her life. I've got money, she doesn't, and a democrat wants equality. Two, I want to keep her attention. Just having her around, to both limit my excesses and to show me a moral life, is worth far more to me than money. You can't buy that shit. You might find it by accident, but if you do, you still need to keep it around for its benefits. Money is a cheap way to do that.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-17-2022 at 01:25 PM.
It is hard to resist them, to tell them "No.", unless it is truly something outrageous that they demand and even then it can be difficult to ignore their request when they have set their sights on something. ESIs and LIEs sure share stubborness.
I tend to disagree, I actually have to bar my boyfriend from making dumb financial decisions. For instance, he wanted to squander his remaining money on getting his phone camera repaired, so we can videocall again. But he has few savings and the end of the month is still far away. In addition to that, today he informed me that he needs to pay for some official documents and get them signed, because he needs the dossier for his next contract. I'm glad that I prevented him from getting his smartphone repaired, because this is far more important. It really seems that he's winging his life, trying to land his next contract and getting all the overdue maintenance and purchases done, but when between contracts he skimps out on everything to get by. It's an unhealthy oscillating lifestyle without an overarching Ni plan behind instead of just trying to survive and working hard to get to a better living standard.
Yes and yes. The emotional support that ESIs provide I deem incredibly valuable, both Räv and my cycling friend help me in this. I only realized what I had been missing all this time now that I've found it.
ESI-LIE duality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-clmL9fj5_o
Last edited by Armitage; 04-18-2022 at 12:04 AM.
I believe that Duals are the type most able to form happy, reasonably long-lived relationships with each other, but there are caveats. In my particular case, I'm finding that ESIs vary. A lot.
Over the years, I've read on-line that ESIs are jealous, that they are condemning, that they are moral police, that the Se variety have sexual hangups, that they can be self-centered and selfish, and in my experience, it's all true.
Last summer, I hired an ESI-Se interior decorator to fix up my house, and I was dating an ESI-Fi who was separated from, but still married to, her husband.
The ESI-Fi accused me of hiring the ESI-Se only because I "wanted to fuck her", which was not incorrect, but that was only about 5% of the reason. Ninety-five percent was because she had good, Gamma taste.
The ESI-Se started her work by getting rid of everything that was associated with my ex-wife. Later, she told me that the ESI-Fi had lots of problems and that I deserved to be with someone better (but not her). Just someone.
Another time, the ESI-Se told me that the reason she snapped at me was because she had PMS. I asked her if she felt this way every month, and she said that she didn't want to discuss it (after bringing it up), especially with me. (She's a lesbian, if that matters.)
The ESI-Fi seemed to initially want my company until she got back on her feet (after her separation), and then she didn't want to hang out with me so much.
So, morally condemning? Yes.
Jealous? Yes.
Policing my morals while not exactly being paragons of virtue themselves? Yes.
Sexual hangups? Yes.
Self-centered and selfish? Yes.
This is probably why LIEs spend so much time at work.
SF caveats for Gamma, I think both j/p are like that from my personal experience (Mostly my SEE and my ESI Uncle)
My dad yells at me for random crap I do wrong. Very helpful actually. He is an idiot though, like he thinks my Aunt is fine and I'm not, I'm breaking it to him very slowly. He's obviously ESI, because understand each other perfectly and get pissed at bad news.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko
I have an older LSE friend whom I like. We've worked together on some projects and I like the way he thinks. I've also met his family, and they do not like him at all. I chalked it up to them being spoiled by his money, but he did tell me once that his ancestors owned slaves, and he seemed pleased by this fact.
I told an ESI-Se about him, then she met him when he came over one day. I later told her that he was kind of a Te asshole, but he was basically a good guy.
"I don't think he's a good guy at all," she said. "I think he's a very bad guy."
I was dismayed. One meeting and she hates my friend.
The worst thing about it is that I think she might be right.
I've encountered so much problems dealing with ESIs, and so my LIE friend. We spoke about it weeks ago.
ESIs are usually full of prejudices and continually afraid that someone will take away from them the people they love, even if the conditions for this are almost impossible.
An ESI I know is extremely jealous and every time a girl follows her boyfriend on Instagram, she follows them after a second and checks them out. She claims that she is afraid that anything will happen and that the boyfriend will leave her (PolR Ne?). For this reason she has prejudices towards anyone who approaches the group, even male friends, because male friends could give him advice against her (her words).
The thing that is most often noticed is the Ti Role overreaction: she begins to tell you that the reasons for which something negative will happen for sure has a logic, and she explains that from reason A to consequence B etc, trying to convince you that it is a flawless logic, while being over personalistic and bordering the absurd.
This girl mistyped herself for INTP (mbti) and LII too many times for this reason.
@Adam Strange see i told u
Even if u arent as bad as him maybe ur volatility is the same
And maybe theres something wrong with u im not fully discerning yet and im thirsty for drama but ive never managed to get through an LIE
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
where do u think ur going? where do u think ur going?where do u think ur going?where do u think ur going?where do u think ur going?
i'm afraid it will hurt like hell, i am afraid of screaming and i am afraid of crying, i am afraid of forgetting but i'm not afraid of dying.
I’ve known this ESI-Se female for about eleven years. Yesterday she and I were moving some of my four thousand odd books, half of which are fiction and the other half are on science topics, and she asked me, “Are you an Engineer?”
Lol. Se-doms might be the most observant types, but when mixed with strong Fi, they can miss a lot.
”No. I never took an engineering course in my life.” …….pause…… “My degree is in Astrophysics. I just pretend to be an engineer.”
”How can you do that?”
”Because, if you learn physics, engineering is easy. It’s EASY.”
Reposted from another thread, but I like this thread better.
I spent the entire day yesterday with an ESI-Se interior decorator, doing interior decorating things. Best time I’ve had in a long time.
I’ve talked to her so much about Socionics that, while she personally hates the idea that people can be put into boxes, she also is beginning to see some truth to it. She sometimes shows me pictures of the people she knows and asks me what I think of them. She’s not going to learn the theory, though.
She’s a natural psychologist, so she might not need any help in dealing with people. She judges them entirely on how good a friend they are to her. In turn, she can be a very good friend to them.
She said that I would have more success in dating if I adopted her strategy, which is to judge a person by how well they treat me, and recommended that I get out there in real life and just meet more people.
I told her that, in the past, I’ve found women who were good friends but bad Socionics matches, and so the friendship went well enough, but the interactions were often bad in a way exactly predicted by Socionics. More recently, I’ve been meeting ESIs who were great Socionics matches, but were bad friends.
Hey, not all LIEs or ESIs have the same history or the same coping skills.
I told her that I want both a good Socionics match and a good friend.
She seems to be both, so I guess I have to add “heterosexual” to that list.
Reposted from another thread, but I like this thread better.
An ESI-Se interior decorator and I were improving my house yesterday and she decided that the couch had to go, so she put it on Facebook Marketplace. She, as typical for her type, set the price too low.
A guy texted her immediately and said he would buy it, and he’d be over to get it in one hour.
One hour later, he hasn’t shown up. She texts him and he said his buddy is coming to pick him up in his truck and they’ll be here in thirty minutes.
Thirty minutes later, she has five offers for the couch, and some people have offered much more than her asking price. She texts the guy and asks what’s going on?
He texts back and tells her that his buddy is doing some errands before picking him up.
She turns to me (remember, she’s ESI and has a time horizon of right now) and says “This guy’s a flake and this woman just upped her offer again. What should I do?”
I said, “That’s an Ethical question and is not up to me to decide. You make that decision.”
She turned back to her phone. “It IS an ethical question,” and started typing.
I told the above story verbatim to my EII secretary of eleven years, to whom I’d probably be married if we were Duals instead of Semi-Duals, and she said, “She went for the one with more money, didn’t she?”
Damn, girl. That’s harsh. Harsh, but perceptive.
Sometimes I wish I could see people as well as Fi-doms do, but if I had that talent, I’d probably have to give up some equally useful skill, like walking or talking.
Lmfao I love this phrasing.
So fucking accurate, too >.<
I would've done the same thing. I don't see it as unethical whatsoever, either, since he wasn't communicating or being dependable. "You snooze, you lose." My choice wouldn't be about more money in that situation, it'd be about not waiting around while someone repeatedly says one thing but does another. If it was me, your friend would've been misinterpreting my motives.
She went for the one who didn't stand her up repeatedly, it's the same event, only a different way of framing it, just like Lady Leviathan said. Our perspective changes reality.
It's a perfect example of how most people assume the worst about others.
I love this explanation. For one thing, ESIs don't seem to spend a lot of time thinking about how to get every dollar from a transaction, so the money would not have been of prime importance to her. Instead, the prospective buyer's Ne unpredictability would have made a much bigger impression on her. I've worked with her (and other ESIs) a lot, and they seem to have trouble judging whether a price is "good" or not, but they also want to make the transaction happen right away.
Weirdly enough, I have found myself being much more definite (anti-Ne) about everything when I'm dealing with ESIs. If I'm going to be five minutes late to a meeting with most people, I let them wait. When I'm going to be late to meet an ESI, I text her and tell her exactly when she can expect me.
This isn't something that I decided to do; this is something that I find myself doing naturally. It surprised me. It seems as if just interacting with ESIs makes me conform, consciously or not, intentionally or not, to their needs.
From my perspective, which is that of a guy who does not want to be controlled, I find my behavior fascinating. I've described this kind of thing before by saying that it's as if the driver of a car has some controls and levers that they use to control the car, and when dealing with Duals, all those levers are connected to something. But when dealing with people who have different values, some of those levers are not connected. They either don't have any effect, or they do something different from what you want to have happen. The further from your Quadra you go, the fewer levers there are that are connected, until you get to your Conflictor and find that none of the levers work.
The Dual's levers also work effectively on me. I find myself doing what they ask, which is almost completely unbelievable to me. It's like I'm a robot and someone else has taken control of my actions. Fortunately, the Duals I've met don't seem to abuse this superpower. I can usually trust them to act responsibly.
When at dinner the other night, I told my semi-Dual EII secretary that, since she controls the money details, she should give herself a good raise this year. She said, "Don't you think I'll abuse this?"
I laughed and said No. If anything, she'd underestimate the figure that I had in mind. And if she does, I'll let her know and she can have more.
Believe me, money is nothing compared to keeping her around. She's a half-Dual and is not going to abuse the Fi/Te part of our relationship.*
The EII was judging the ESI based on her own values, which are not ESI values. She's going to interpret the ESI's actions as not being in-line with what she would do, or if her actions were identical, then they'd be coming from a different place. Not her place.
Deltas just don't seem to place a high importance on money, at least, not to the degree that Gammas seem to. And by the time the Quadras rotate around to the Alphas, you find people who hold money in disdain.
*
Last edited by Adam Strange; 05-13-2022 at 12:34 PM.
I employ an ESI-Se artist as an interior decorator for my house renovation. She’s strong and beautiful and she sleeps with women and if there were two things I’d change in the world, they would be to make her straight and me a lot younger.
Anyway, she was at the house today to decide on bathroom finishes and she walked into my bedroom and saw a blanket on the bed that my ex-wife made. She knows that my ex-wife made that blanket.
She came out of the room and said, “You need to get rid of that blanket. It’s hideous.”
I’ve known her for ten years, so I said, jokingly, “Do you hate that blanket because my ex made it?”
”Noooooo”, she insisted. “It’s ugly. No woman would want to sleep in a bed with that blanket. Not that I’m ever going to sleep in that bed, but no one else would, either.”
WTF?
I said, ”That blanket is like a weighted blanket. Sometimes I like to sleep with a weighted blanket.”
”I’ll buy you a better weighted blanket. Get rid of that one.”
Sometimes I wonder what she’s thinking. Her thought process is a complete mystery to me.
To be honest, it always creeps me out a bit when you say things like this, even though I know that you will refrain from forcing yourself onto her.
She's thinking exactly what she says she is. That's the beauty of ESIs, they play no mind games. She wants to help you, a good friend, be happy by increasing your dating prospects by replacing that ugly weighted blanket with one that actually looks decent. Because whenever you get along well with a woman and invite her over to your home, if that's the first thing that she'll see it will kill the mood inevitably. I haven't seen the particular blanket, but I side with your ESI interior decorator friend 100% on this. Moreover, you also know yourself that she has a better taste than you, which is why you hire her as your interior decorator and purchase her art.
The John Wayne voice thing was too funny lol.
Weighted blankets are great. Ugly one needs a facelift, that's what is called a Duvet Cover in the US. Get one!
Yesterday, the ESI-Se interior decorator was choosing finishes for the new downstairs bathroom that’s being built. She found some absolutely beautiful tile and a granite shower surround. She also proposed a custom wood folding wall to hide some plumbing.
The SLI-Te project manager said that he would recommend finishes which would do the exact same job but would be much cheaper.
I, as the money resource, said that money was not a problem and I’d rather go with the aesthetic vision of the ESI. In an earlier planning meeting, I had said that money reserves are down this month to a level below what is needed to finish this project, but I will find more money in 30 days.
Later, the ESI was at my standing desk in my study, leaning over the keyboard, looking at kitchen examples, and thinking.
”I think you should pay me less”, she said.
This pissed me off. ”Stop that.
“Every ESI I’ve ever met undervalues themselves and their contribution to projects. Every. Single. One.”
”I know we negotiated a price for my work, and it seemed fair….”
She was worried that I’m going to run out of money.
“I’m not going to run out of money.”
I paused for a minute, considering whether to generalize the conversation.
”Let me tell you a secret about LIEs. We take pride in our ability to pay high salaries. It means that we are capable of doing so.”
”OK, fine.” She focused on the computer screen. “I love this countertop.”
While her attention had shifted back to the world of buying beautiful things, I was still thinking about what I’d said. Paying her less would mean that I was less of an LIE. Less capable than I am. Would she wish to be less beautiful, or less understanding of human values?
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