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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    An ESI whom I like but consider to be a bit selfish: " Do you think I am selfish?"

    Me: "well if you are selfish and I tell you that you are, you wouldn't take my word as fact and will hate me for thinking you are and if I say no you aren't it would boost your ego.
    If you aren't selfish and I tell you that you are, not only is that unfair but also shows my inability to make judgements and would also make you dislike me as a result of which will not take me seriously. If I tell you no you are not and you really are not, since you are asking this question now, you will think I'm lying. So I don't really know how to answer that question."

    ESI: "So you think that I'm selfish!"

    Me: "How do you define selfishness?"

    ESI: "You think too much"
    Slightly offending (just slightly, mind you) ESIs who are already friends with you makes them like you more, usually.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Adam! This is absolutely amazing! Her replies are exactly the same as the replies I got from an ESI the first time I seriously told him about socionics (had mentioned it multiple times before but just as advertisement planning for a right moment to finally tell it in the future)

    Will post more on that later!

    BTW do you think the woman was Se subtype or Fi?

    Also, my first infatuation was with an ESI-Fi who worked at a bank!
    @Zero, I can't tell if the woman leans more Fi or Se. The one woman that I'm sure is an ESI-Fi is also an e4, and the one woman whom I'm sure is an ESI-Se is a CP e6w7. Not easy to separate the influences, if that is even an appropriate endeavor. Maybe e4=Fi in ESI's, and e6=Se, IDK.

    If I had to pick an enneatype for her, I'd say she's an e6, because she isn't trying to be eccentrically unique like an e4, and isn't a peacekeeper, like an e9, leaving only someone who doubts; an e6. So, maybe ESI-Se?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Zero, I can't tell if the woman leans more Fi or Se. The one woman that I'm sure is an ESI-Fi is also an e4, and the one woman whom I'm sure is an ESI-Se is a CP e6w7. Not easy to separate the influences, if that is even an appropriate endeavor. Maybe e4=Fi in ESI's, and e6=Se, IDK.

    If I had to pick an enneatype for her, I'd say she's an e6, because she isn't trying to be eccentrically unique like an e4, and isn't a peacekeeper, like an e9, leaving only someone who doubts; an e6. So, maybe ESI-Se?
    Maybe someone who doubts is more like Fi subtype? Because from my experience the Se subtype sounds more sure of themselves. And the ESI-Se I know is e4. Always trying to be eccentrically unique even if something he does or likes doesn't make much sense
    What are the connections between subtype and enneagram?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Slightly offending (just slightly, mind you) ESIs who are already friends with you makes them like you more, usually.
    Yes FDG, it was supposed to be exactly slightly offensive. This was in the middle of an argument and I find them slightly selfish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Maybe someone who doubts is more like Fi subtype? Because from my experience the Se subtype sounds more sure of themselves. And the ESI-Se I know is e4. Always trying to be eccentrically unique even if something he does or likes doesn't make much sense
    What are the connections between subtype and enneagram?
    DCNH should agree with this, while Fi normalizing leads to anxious behavior Se Creative leads to connecting and engaging.
    Still the erotic attitude mostly describe The Esi-Se as the one with complexes who needs to be won over and made sure.

    Could be The weakened Ne Polr in contact subtypes, i don't know.

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    When you're talking about an idea or a new theory/finding an ESI is almost always suspicious of it being as true as you think it is. Specially the Se subtype. Therefore their immediate reply almost always starts with: But, maybe but, what about and such. If not these words, they will in one way or another ask you for additional information with the purpose of finding something to prove that what you're saying is not as true as you think it is. Anyway, this being said, when the ESI is listening attentively without questioning, interrupting or deviating the topic it means that what you're saying is making absolute sense.

    When I catch an ESI suddenly listening attentively after so much refusal and denial, it is a big moment of victory.
    This moment happens in the middle of the conversation and is rare. One can catch it while conversing. Before the ESI realizes that they have brought their guard down and are being attentive and hold their guards up again, one can see Fi clearly.

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    Today I (along with other members of our team) attended the regular Monday morning meeting with a car supplier after a two week hiatus. They have asked us to design an infrared sensor for vehicles to make them more autonomous. The car supplier team is headed by an ESI who keeps everything moving and seems to know everything about the project, including the optics, electronics, software, and mechanical parts, and although there are specialists in every one of those areas somewhere on the two teams, the ESI, as the buyer, coordinates the project. He and I dualized months ago, after a slightly rocky start.

    My particular role there is to define the optical system and what is physically possible to accomplish. I did that a couple months ago, and now I'm a third wheel while the software and electronics guys on their team sort out how to extract signal from noise and send the info to the car's communications bus. As a consequence, I don't do or say much at meetings now, other than to show up and affirm everyone. And to keep them from taking a course of action that cuts off future attack lines, in case we run into something that no one anticipated.

    So today, I said almost nothing, except to repeat that we can shrink the laser optics to the size of a pencil eraser once we gear up for production. The ESI, who had been doing 99% of the talking, said "It's so good that you're here, because now we get to hear exactly the information that we need."

    And I thought, here's a completely competent guy, with a PhD, who is still Te-seeking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Today I (along with other members of our team) attended the regular Monday morning meeting with a car supplier after a two week hiatus. They have asked us to design an infrared sensor for vehicles to make them more autonomous. The car supplier team is headed by an ESI who keeps everything moving and seems to know everything about the project, including the optics, electronics, software, and mechanical parts, and although there are specialists in every one of those areas somewhere on the two teams, the ESI, as the buyer, coordinates the project. He and I dualized months ago, after a slightly rocky start.

    My particular role there is to define the optical system and what is physically possible to accomplish. I did that a couple months ago, and now I'm a third wheel while the software and electronics guys on their team sort out how to extract signal from noise and send the info to the car's communications bus. As a consequence, I don't do or say much at meetings now, other than to show up and affirm everyone. And to keep them from taking a course of action that cuts off future attack lines, in case we run into something that no one anticipated.

    So today, I said almost nothing, except to repeat that we can shrink the laser optics to the size of a pencil eraser once we gear up for production. The ESI, who had been doing 99% of the talking, said "It's so good that you're here, because now we get to hear exactly the information that we need."

    And I thought, here's a completely competent guy, with a PhD, who is still Te-seeking.
    Also, there's a sort of comfort in having someone who you know will tell you if you're going off the deep end and they don't say anything. Negative space Te.
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    Since gamma doesn't have a lounge I don't know where to ask this.

    I was reading a ITR descprition and saw this. Help me make sense out of this sentence.

    ESI's love is not a burden only for the LIE because due to the "specialization of his sociotype" the LIE remains at large distances away from it, and needs this kind of love precisely at such a distance.
    Does that mean physical distance for the LIE or psychological distance. Like do they stay away from ESI or is it saying their Fi strength is at a greater distance and requires a stronger Fi to fill the gap?

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    @Lord Pixel I dunno if this is useful for answering your question but I was thinking this morning about how a little distance (within reason lol) can be my preference in a relationship because of how it stokes passion, adds an element of interest, makes time together feel more meaningful, provokes a little aggressor work-for-it kinda element, etc. As for why an LIE needs it, couldn't tell you, but reading that excerpt I get the impression that they need a reprieve from ESI emotional intensity? Lol.

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    @Lord Pixel, my experience has been with an LSI, but a relationship where I saw her on weekends was about optimal. Every day would be too much. I realize that LSI's are not ESI's, but they are pretty similar.

    In HS, I had a great ESI buddy, and I'd go over to his house frequently after school, just to talk and make telescopes. We'd spend a few hours together, and then we'd both be good for the day.

    I've spent a week or two at a time living with an ILI-ESI couple, and I get along with the ESI great. I don't really need breaks from her. She's an introvert and spends a lot of time either reading or shopping. She'd come back from shopping, show us what she'd bought, and then would go off and watch a movie. Or we'd go shopping with her. She was super easy to just hang out with.
    The only time that I felt kind of weird around her was when the three of us went to a concert on a lawn, and her ILI husband decided to take off somewhere for a half hour. She and I were left there together, and since I didn't want to get too close to her, we didn't talk much. But aside from that, she's just really easy to be with.

    Personally, I like to go off and do things on my own a lot. But I also like to do stuff with a partner.

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    I am pretty sure my uncle is an LIE and my mother ESI. When I was somewhere around 17 or 18, I remember getting into a big fight with my mom after this conversation between her and my uncle... just one of those random things that you don't forget. I probably just ruined their dualizing. Whatever. lol

    ESI: Oh, I love that sports car. I want one.
    LIE: If you want it, you should buy it.
    ESI: But it is expensive, I'm sure.
    LIE: *looks at price tag* It would come out to approximately X per month, by cutting back on this other bill, you could probably do it. It is here now, it is a good opportunity, if you really want it.
    ESI: Yes, I do want it.

    She walked out with a freaking sports car. (How the story ended - it turned out it was too expensive for her, and she called him complaining that he led her astray, that he didn't think about it as carefully as he should have... then he offered to help her pay for it as she made him feel sufficiently bad, and she said something like, "no, it was my fault, I cannot accept your help, I knew I should not have bought it." To me, after hanging up the phone, she said "Oh. I'm a terrible person. He meant well, he was just trying to make me happy. I should apologize...")

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Since gamma doesn't have a lounge I don't know where to ask this.

    I was reading a ITR descprition and saw this. Help me make sense out of this sentence.

    "ESI's love is not a burden only for the LIE because due to the "specialization of his sociotype" the LIE remains at large distances away from it, and needs this kind of love precisely at such a distance."

    Does that mean physical distance for the LIE or psychological distance. Like do they stay away from ESI or is it saying their Fi strength is at a greater distance and requires a stronger Fi to fill the gap?
    @Lord Pixel, I just realized that I have a better explanation for the quotation above that you found.

    Normally, I'm engaged in highly rational Te activities and I'm not considering Fi human relations much at all. This means that I can go out and explore and influence the world in my limited way without needing too much in the way of deeply personal human interactions.

    However, just because I don't need much in the way of human interactions on an intimate level, does not mean that I don't need ANY human interactions. I actually do need to know that I am loved in a deeply personal way by someone.

    Stratiyevskaya said it very well:

    "Going out on a long journey or venturing on a risky venture, the LIE must feel assured that his "rear flank" is covered and that he has a "warm home" to return to - a place where someone is waiting for him and where he needs to return. For LIE it is very important to realize that he is very needed and dear to somebody, that his life is very valuable and significant, that there is somebody out there who loves him, who cares and waits for him. If there is nobody like this, the risks that the LIE takes on diminish in their value - his life and his work become meaningless. In accordance with the system of values ​​of the third quadra and of his dual dyad, the LIE risks himself for the success and well-being of his "team."

    His "team" is a specific group of people with whom he is associated by strong tries and reliable relations. For the sake of friendship, love, respect and peace of these people the LIE is ready to take on any load, both physical and psychological, to endure thought any tests, to go for any risks and sacrifices - but it all makes sense only if this is needed by somebody."


    As she stated, I can go out and do things in the real world without much in the way of human support, but I have to know that someone is available who cares about me.

    With my LSI GF, we'd not talk much during the week, and then we'd spend the weekend together, doing things that were either maintenance or just plain fun. We'd go camping, visit museums, walk in the woods, go swimming in a local lake, go on mini-trips to nearby interesting places, go to sports events, or sometimes we'd work on repairs to her home or car or do yard maintenance. Being with her in these times was easy and fun, with only a little of the gear-grinding that Mirage produces.

    In her case, I think she got a kick out of deciding what she wanted to do and then getting me to do it. Aside from the fun of going on trips, she also got her house and car repaired. Her life opened up tremendously as a result of our interactions. In my case, doing all this stuff was just a continuation of my regular life, so it was falling-down easy for me to do, and what I got in return was the knowledge that she loved me.

    Now, she only had Role Fi, but to a starving man, bread and water are a feast.

    I actually think that LSE's and LIE's are damaged or undeveloped in a particular way, in the sense that we have what is called one dimensional Fi, but is what I think of as retarded Fi. I actually think that Te-doms are stuck in an early development stage of children where, for example, the mother takes the little kid to the playground and he runs off to explore, and then stops, turns around, runs back to his mother to make sure that she's still there for him, and once reassured, goes off again to explore, his mother temporarily forgotten until the "love assurance" runs out and he has to return to her again.

    Certainly, I've seen an LSE call home from work several times a day to check on his wife and ask her what she's doing and does she need anything. It is really the LSE who needs to know where his wife is, and he's the one who needs something from her. He needs her steady and reassuring existence. In return, he'll pick up dinner on the way home, pay for the house, and fix the toaster when he gets there. Because he can.

    In my own case, I think I need to close the distance between me and my SO and be intimate for a while, until the "love meter" reads "full", and then I can go off and do things independently, working only with my Te and Ni, until the supply of love runs out and I need to return to fill it up again. But I need to know that she is nearby and is available when I need her. That is essential. I need that like oxygen.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-11-2020 at 01:01 PM.

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    Thanks for sharing, @Adam Strange.

    Gamma quadra... No matter which way you cut it, they are all equals, somehow. Whenever you try to change one, the more it stays the same... and whenever one has power over the other, just give it enough time and it evens out.

    To some extent this is true of all types but it seems their individualism really gets in their own way sometimes.

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    I own rental property, and it was recently inspected by a city inspector. I wasn't there, but the guy cited two improvements I'd made but hadn't pulled a city permit for. So, I had to get a couple of permits from city hall.

    The previous inspector had been an ILE and he and I did not get along very well. In fact, I thought he was a nit-picking jerk, so I wasn't looking forward to interacting with the city again. Nevertheless, I want to stay legal, so down I went to the building department to get a permit for the work that was already done.

    The woman at the counter said I needed to get the work OK'd by a licensed plumber and electrician before this Friday, or the fines start. I told her I was going to be out of town until Saturday, and what can I do to avoid the fines?

    About this time, an introverted balding guy wandered over and said coldly "-address of my property here-?"

    I said, "Yes, I own that building" and I started explaining my situation to him, that "an inspector had inspected the place and I don't have time to find licensed contractors before Friday and.."

    "I'm the inspector", he said. I looked at him for the first time, expecting to see an ILE guy being a total jerk. Instead, I saw that he was an ESI. The Inspector was an ESI. Of course. It made total sense. "Ridding the world of problems", as Strat said.

    "Really?", I said, brightening. He wasn't an asshole. I was so relieved. "So how can I get this taken care of? I don't have time to fix everything before Friday."

    He looked sideways at the woman at the desk, and then said to me, "I guess we can make an exception here. I can give you an additional two weeks to find a contractor before the fines start."

    "Thank you!", I said. "That should be plenty of time to arrange things, assuming I can find a contractor."
    I started to leave, but then thought of something and said "Say, one other thing. I know that you guys aren't able to make specific recommendations for contractors..." I slid a piece of paper across the counter towards him, "but if a name just appeared on this paper..."

    "No.", he said.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-11-2020 at 09:16 PM.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    @Adam Strange hey you own rental property, what's your take on the likelihood of my landlord being open to converting to month-to-month at the end of my lease?

    I'm asking for Te so it's kinda relevant to the thread topic lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    @Adam Strange hey you own rental property, what's your take on the likelihood of my landlord being open to converting to month-to-month at the end of my lease?

    I'm asking for Te so it's kinda relevant to the thread topic lol
    @ashlesha, a lot depends on what the rental market is where you live. Here in Ann Arbor, if you have a nice place to rent, you can usually find high quality tenants pretty easily, IF you have a few months notice. Only then, though.

    You should understand how your landlord thinks. Here is his world:

    1. Rents in a city rise to the point where they reflect the maximum income that your target audience is capable of paying. That means, probably, 40% or so of your combined income. If you aren't spending that, congratulations.

    2. Rental property values rise until they are equal to the value of an alternate, common investment (stocks, bonds) that yields the same profit that the landlord makes in the long run, after he pays all taxes, maintenance costs, repairs, improvements, and interest income on his loan. This means that your landlord, despite raking in $1600/month from you and from every other renter that he has, isn't actually making that much profit. If you looked at his cash flow, you'd find that he is just breaking even, year after year.

    3. The way that landlords make money is through appreciation in property values. His property is worth two to eight percent more every year. He can't "eat" that money, but after many years, he can borrow against his built-up equity and can buy more property. Eventually, he can cash out, after a lifetime of plunging out toilets at midnight in the middle of winter.

    In case this isn't clear, his monthly margins are non-existent. If you miss a rent payment, that is covered by your deposit, but two missed rent payments, and he's paying the bank out of his own pockets. Just about the worst situation for a landlord, after having to evict deadbeat renters who stopped paying altogether (six months income lost, which comes out of his savings), or having renters who trash the place. Trashing the place is generally covered by insurance (another cost), but where it hurts is the months it takes to repair the damage, during which he's still paying the bank out of his own savings.

    So by going to monthly payments, you are saying to him, "We might leave at any time. Too bad for you, Jack. Good luck finding a renter in the off season at a moment's notice." He's not going to be happy about that.

    However, if you have been on time with the rent and haven't made pains of yourselves and haven't wrecked the place, and if you sign an agreement which says that you will give him three months notice before moving out, and if you give him another month's security deposit, to be forfeited if you leave sooner, he might do it.

    Or, if he's new to the landlord business and is ignorant, he might do it because he likes you and wants to be a nice guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Lord Pixel, I just realized that I have a better explanation for the quotation above that you found.

    Normally, I'm engaged in highly rational Te activities and I'm not considering Fi human relations much at all. This means that I can go out and explore and influence the world in my limited way without needing too much in the way of deeply personal human interactions.

    However, just because I don't need much in the way of human interactions on an intimate level, does not mean that I don't need ANY human interactions. I actually do need to know that I am loved in a deeply personal way by someone.

    Stratiyevskaya said it very well:

    "Going out on a long journey or venturing on a risky venture, the LIE must feel assured that his "rear flank" is covered and that he has a "warm home" to return to - a place where someone is waiting for him and where he needs to return. For LIE it is very important to realize that he is very needed and dear to somebody, that his life is very valuable and significant, that there is somebody out there who loves him, who cares and waits for him. If there is nobody like this, the risks that the LIE takes on diminish in their value - his life and his work become meaningless. In accordance with the system of values ​​of the third quadra and of his dual dyad, the LIE risks himself for the success and well-being of his "team."

    His "team" is a specific group of people with whom he is associated by strong tries and reliable relations. For the sake of friendship, love, respect and peace of these people the LIE is ready to take on any load, both physical and psychological, to endure thought any tests, to go for any risks and sacrifices - but it all makes sense only if this is needed by somebody."


    As she stated, I can go out and do things in the real world without much in the way of human support, but I have to know that someone is available who cares about me.

    With my LSI GF, we'd not talk much during the week, and then we'd spend the weekend together, doing things that were either maintenance or just plain fun. We'd go camping, visit museums, walk in the woods, go swimming in a local lake, go on mini-trips to nearby interesting places, go to sports events, or sometimes we'd work on repairs to her home or car or do yard maintenance. Being with her in these times was easy and fun, with only a little of the gear-grinding that Mirage produces.

    In her case, I think she got a kick out of deciding what she wanted to do and then getting me to do it. Aside from the fun of going on trips, she also got her house and car repaired. Her life opened up tremendously as a result of our interactions. In my case, doing all this stuff was just a continuation of my regular life, so it was falling-down easy for me to do, and what I got in return was the knowledge that she loved me.

    Now, she only had Role Fi, but to a starving man, bread and water are a feast.

    I actually think that LSE's and LIE's are damaged or undeveloped in a particular way, in the sense that we have what is called one dimensional Fi, but is what I think of as retarded Fi. I actually think that Te-doms are stuck in an early development stage of children where, for example, the mother takes the little kid to the playground and he runs off to explore, and then stops, turns around, runs back to his mother to make sure that she's still there for him, and once reassured, goes off again to explore, his mother temporarily forgotten until the "love assurance" runs out and he has to return to her again.

    Certainly, I've seen an LSE call home from work several times a day to check on his wife and ask her what she's doing and does she need anything. It is really the LSE who needs to know where his wife is, and he's the one who needs something from her. He needs her steady and reassuring existence. In return, he'll pick up dinner on the way home, pay for the house, and fix the toaster when he gets there. Because he can.

    In my own case, I think I need to close the distance between me and my SO and be intimate for a while, until the "love meter" reads "full", and then I can go off and do things independently, working only with my Te and Ni, until the supply of love runs out and I need to return to fill it up again. But I need to know that she is nearby and is available when I need her. That is essential. I need that like oxygen.
    Wow, that was eye opening.

    I think I can understand also why this might have came after your first response too. It might have taken awhile to trickle down the chain of command until it got to Fi.

    Same happens to me when in an argument. In the moment I am sure I have a point to make but lost for words, then much later the words come to me via Te and I can clearly state and articulate my points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    I actually think that LSE's and LIE's are damaged or undeveloped in a particular way, in the sense that we have what is called one dimensional Fi, but is what I think of as retarded Fi. I actually think that Te-doms are stuck in an early development stage of children where, for example, the mother takes the little kid to the playground and he runs off to explore, and then stops, turns around, runs back to his mother to make sure that she's still there for him, and once reassured, goes off again to explore, his mother temporarily forgotten until the "love assurance" runs out and he has to return to her again.

    Certainly, I've seen an LSE call home from work several times a day to check on his wife and ask her what she's doing and does she need anything. It is really the LSE who needs to know where his wife is, and he's the one who needs something from her. He needs her steady and reassuring existence. In return, he'll pick up dinner on the way home, pay for the house, and fix the toaster when he gets there. Because he can.

    In my own case, I think I need to close the distance between me and my SO and be intimate for a while, until the "love meter" reads "full", and then I can go off and do things independently, working only with my Te and Ni, until the supply of love runs out and I need to return to fill it up again. But I need to know that she is nearby and is available when I need her. That is essential. I need that like oxygen.
    That's insightful and well explained.
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    I have been wondering if LIE and LSE are the types that are most likely to commit suicide over a break up. I've heard of several stories from coworkers of a person who I thought was an LSE that jumped in front of a train after his wife has left him. (I work for german railways).

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    I have been wondering if LIE and LSE are the types that are most likely to commit suicide over a break up. I've heard of several stories from coworkers of a person who I thought was an LSE that jumped in front of a train after his wife has left him. (I work for german railways).
    Are you in charge of supplying body bags?

    That is somewhat common way to go while another similar one is to get hit by a truck. I have heard of people telling stories about their train trips along the lines of: We saw one guy looking depressed and walking on the railway and then... Lots of collateral damage on top of one death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Are you in charge of supplying body bags?

    That is somewhat common way to go while another similar one is to get hit by a truck. I have heard of people telling stories about their train trips along the lines of: We saw one guy looking depressed and walking on the railway and then... Lots of collateral damage on top of one death.
    I'm working with computers at my company, but you meet a lot of people who share stories and they are often very similar, like: hard working guy, wife left him after 10-15 years of marriage, he jumped in front of a train. the way people describe them often makes me think that they were EXTJ types.
    Last edited by dead account; 02-15-2020 at 12:11 AM.

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    Probably because they realized they did not know what they lived for other than being financial providers... Sad, really.

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    well it's Fi as suggestive function, they are very suggestible by love. it's very painful for these types to lose a friend or a partner (I mean it hurts everyone obviously, but for these types it seems more painful). I've met quite a few LxE types that were in horrible relationships (conflict, superego etc.) and yet they stay with their partner for decades.

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    OK, this isn’t about ESI-LIE conversations, but it could conceivably bear on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    I'm working with computers at my company, but you meet a lot of people who share stories and they are often very similar, like: hard working guy, wife left him after 10-15 years of marriage, he jumped in front of a train. the way people describe them often makes me think that they were EXTJ types.
    When my (now) ex-wife left me, I was in a state of shock. I didn’t see it coming and really could not believe it was happening. She moved out and took our son with her.
    About four or five days later this guy shows up at the front door and says he’s from my son’s school and could he come in? I said, Sure. It turns out my son mentioned the fact that he and his mother left, and the guy was actually from city services suicide watch or some crazy thing. I told him I was depressed but not suicidal. I don’t know why he would think I would be suicidal.
    Ann Arbor is a very rich, liberal city. Personally, I think they go overboard in some areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by remiges View Post
    Probably because they realized they did not know what they lived for other than being financial providers... Sad, really.
    Well, duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    well it's Fi as suggestive function, they are very suggestible by love. it's very painful for these types to lose a friend or a partner (I mean it hurts everyone obviously, but for these types it seems more painful). I've met quite a few LxE types that were in horrible relationships (conflict, superego etc.) and yet they stay with their partner for decades.
    Interesting that you say that LxE types stay in horrible relationships. I, of course, married my Supervisor, which is generally considered to be a low 12 out of 16 on the Socionics Compatibility Scale, but I was pretty happy. Even after my ex-wife moved out, I tried to get her back. Eventually, I realized that she wasn’t coming back and I divorced her. Maybe I have a high tolerance for bullshit, IDK.
    I had a Mirage GF within about six months, and while she wasn’t perfect, she was an improvement over the ex in many, many ways. So much so that when I told my ex that I was dating again and she said, “Why not date me?”, I mean, I could not believe it. After breaking our relationship, she wants to fuck me over again?
    She’s gonna be single and alone for the rest of her life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    .......Interesting that you say that LxE types stay in horrible relationships. I, of course, married my Supervisor, which is generally considered to be a low 12 out of 16 on the Socionics Compatibility Scale, but I was pretty happy......
    Of the factors that contribute to content, long-term marriages, type doesn't seem to be all that significant. Type certainly helps with the understanding of partnering (especially for managers who have to put project teams together) but beyond that, I wouldn't stake future success of a marriage on it. Most people acquire so much baggage as they go through life that type effects are usually rendered insignificant. If your ISTp wife caught you by surprise, then expect no less from ISFjs because they can be even less communicative. I've seen some duals divorce (some of those regretting it, but not all) and versions of all other combinations that have lasted. Other needs usually overshadow type. For example, a dual relationship where one partner is never home, has adopted another belief system, or has become an abuser.........

    a.k.a. I/O

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    This times 1000. "Stratiyevskaya said it very well:

    "Going out on a long journey or venturing on a risky venture, the LIE must feel assured that his "rear flank" is covered and that he has a "warm home" to return to - a place where someone is waiting for him and where he needs to return. For LIE it is very important to realize that he is very needed and dear to somebody, that his life is very valuable and significant, that there is somebody out there who loves him, who cares and waits for him. If there is nobody like this, the risks that the LIE takes on diminish in their value - his life and his work become meaningless. In accordance with the system of values ​​of the third quadra and of his dual dyad, the LIE risks himself for the success and well-being of his "team."

    His "team" is a specific group of people with whom he is associated by strong tries and reliable relations. For the sake of friendship, love, respect and peace of these people the LIE is ready to take on any load, both physical and psychological, to endure thought any tests, to go for any risks and sacrifices - but it all makes sense only if this is needed by somebody."

    As she stated, I can go out and do things in the real world without much in the way of human support, but I have to know that someone is available who cares about me."
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    LIE:
    Hi, (ESI's name here).
    Are you up for some tacos at Tmaz Taqueria in an hour or two? My treat.

    ESI:
    Please consider learning how to plan ahead a little further.

    LIE:
    Is that a "No"?
    I haven't eaten yet.

    ESI:
    Or put another way, the chances of me showing up with an hours notice is zero to negative zero.
    That is a no

    LIE:
    How about tomorrow for dinner? The taco place is closed, but Seva is open.

    ESI:
    You pretty much called me fat, which pretty much earned you a spot on the permanent poop list.

    LIE:
    What?
    You're not fat.
    I could not have called you fat because I don't believe you are fat, and I never lie. Not lying makes my life easier.

    ESI:
    You're the one that wins against the odds. Consider finding another girl who is more physically to your liking.


    -Adam: Man, this woman is a hard sell.
    I know this was forever ago, but why did she think you'd called her fat?
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I know this was forever ago, but why did she think you'd called her fat?
    She was referring to an earlier conversation we'd had. She asked me about my previous GF's, and I stupidly told her the truth. That my ex-wife was 5'8" and weighed 118 lbs, and that all of my previous GF's were really skinny.

    I said exactly nothing about her. She happens not to be as thin as my previous GF's, but she's not fat. She's fine. Definitely acceptable to me, and I'd be happy to be seen with her. In retrospect, I should have said that my previous GF's all were female and left it at that.

    Honestly, I think she was looking for a reason to not go out with me. She's 43 or 44 and has never been married (which in my book is a caution flag), and she's fixated on SLI males like her father. (I can understand that. I was fixated on marrying a type like my SLI father, too.) That means that I'm not in the running, and while that isn't my preferred situation, I'm not going to try to change her mind.

    I'm done trying to change any woman's mind.

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    Thank you. Your experiences inform my decisionmaking
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    I have nothing to add but I just wanted to say your posts are very amusing and interesting to me. I still have a soft heart for ESIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    This times 1000.
    This was just posted by Adam in the same thread

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    just to make a comment: supervision is actually medium comfort relationship especially once you have accustomed to accept the supervising abuse but it is not made for very good understanding.
    This just leaves me thinking why on earth people with such gaps end up together? Maybe it is because my PoLR...

    ( for example EII thinks that supervisee wants money and safe base where his actual drive is all about curiosity and play... smh)
    Measuring you right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    just to make a comment: supervision is actually medium comfort relationship especially once you have accustomed to accept the supervising abuse but it is not made for very good understanding.
    This just leaves me thinking why on earth people with such gaps end up together? Maybe it is because my PoLR...

    ( for example EII thinks that supervisee wants money and safe base where his actual drive is all about curiosity and play... smh)
    I find my relationships with SLE rather uncomfortable. I really don't see how I could bear this type of relationship for a long period of time. I think in supervision relationships you often see some instant connection for each other because the creative function directly stimulates the base of the other person, and one is extro and the other introverted, so the communication is not as dry as a business relationship for example. my conversations with SLE usually focus on Ti aspects, while I have more of a focus on Ne with IEE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    I find my relationships with SLE rather uncomfortable. I really don't see how I could bear this type of relationship for a long period of time. I think in supervision relationships you often see some instant connection for each other because the creative function directly stimulates the base of the other person, and one is extro and the other introverted, so the communication is not as dry as a business relationship for example. my conversations with SLE usually focus on Ti aspects, while I have more of a focus on Ne with IEE.
    I suppose they force you to be submissive. Abuse of demonstrative just like EII's like to abuse my Te.
    Measuring you right now

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    I know this female ESI whom I described in post #5 of this thread. She’s ESI-Se, e6, about 44, and looks exactly like the singer Peggy Lee. She owns a lawn care company and I first talked to her a few years ago when she was working on the house across the street. At that time, she suggested that we go out for “a burger and beer but no sex”, and I thought “Who the hell thinks like that?”

    It took over a year of me constantly asking, but she and I eventually went out for a burger and beer and no sex. And no beer, because I don’t drink, but we did end up talking for eight hours.

    I asked her out again, many times, and she always had an excuse for not going out. I like her, and I actually think she’s sexy, but she’s never been married and it’s easy to see why. She’s just saying No No No No No. You know, after a while, this gets to be a pain in the ass, and at some point, I just stopped trying to date her and flipped a mental switch to “she’s a lawn care resource, and that’s all she is”.

    Today, I spent the entire day working with a male ESI customer, trying to sort out the problems of a device my company designed for his company. He and I dualized months ago and we broke for lunch at his favorite lunch place, just because we enjoy each other’s company. So my tank was basically “filled up” with dual understanding by the end of the day.

    When I got home, I noticed that the tree trimmers had cut down a tree and had left the wood on the ground, so I called the female ESI and asked her if she wanted some free firewood. She said she knew someone who would take it. I said I’d have some workmen over this weekend who could help her load it.

    ”Are they cute?”, she asked?

    I thought, WTF? “They are a guy like your father and a muscular guy who did prison time. I don’t think you want to go there.”

    ”Are you still seeing your girlfriend from across the street?” She asks the craziest things.

    ”She’s not my girlfriend. She’s not my type. I don’t even know if she’s still living there. I haven’t seen her in months.”

    ”Oh, she’s still there. I saw her today.”

    ”Look, she’s the same type as my last girlfriend and I’m not going there again.”

    ”At least you’re keeping your standards high.”

    Now this is exasperating. “Why are you asking about the woman across the street?” I thought this conversation was about firewood?

    She says, ”I’m flirting with you, dummy.”

    I do a mental head slap. For three years, all I get is No No No and now she wants to flirt. Well, I’m not a very romantic guy. If she wants to talk to me, she should come over and take her clothes off.


    *EDIT*
    Stratiyevskaya said, in her essay on LIE-ESI Duality, that relations between this Dual pair proceed quickly and practically without a lot of elaborate formalities, because for both of them, “Life is work.”
    This seems to be exactly the attitude that I am defaulting to.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-22-2020 at 09:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I know this female ESI whom I described in post #5 of this thread. She’s ESI-Se, e6, about 44, and looks exactly like the singer Peggy Lee. She owns a lawn care company and I first talked to her a few years ago when she was working on the house across the street. At that time, she suggested that we go out for “a burger and beer but no sex”, and I thought “Who the hell thinks like that?”

    It took over a year of me constantly asking, but she and I eventually went out for a burger and beer and no sex. And no beer, because I don’t drink, but we did end up talking for eight hours.

    I asked her out again, many times, and she always had an excuse for not going out. I like her, and I actually think she’s sexy, but she’s never been married and it’s easy to see why. She’s just saying No No No No No. You know, after a while, this gets to be a pain in the ass, and at some point, I just stopped trying to date her and flipped a mental switch to “she’s a lawn care resource, and that’s all she is”.

    Today, I spent the entire day working with a male ESI customer, trying to sort out the problems of a device my company designed for his company. He and I dualized months ago and we broke for lunch at his favorite lunch place, just because we enjoy each other’s company. So my tank was basically “filled up” with dual understanding by the end of the day.

    When I got home, I noticed that the tree trimmers had cut down a tree and had left the wood on the ground, so I called the female ESI and asked her if she wanted some free firewood. She said she knew someone who would take it. I said I’d have some workmen over this weekend who could help her load it.

    ”Are they cute?”, she asked?

    I thought, WTF? “They are a guy like your father and a muscular guy who did prison time. I don’t think you want to go there.”

    ”Are you still seeing your girlfriend from across the street?” She asks the craziest things.

    ”She’s not my girlfriend. She’s not my type. I don’t even know if she’s still living there. I haven’t seen her in months.”

    ”Oh, she’s still there. I saw her today.”

    ”Look, she’s the same type as my last girlfriend and I’m not going there again.”

    ”At least you’re keeping your standards high.”

    Now this is exasperating. “Why are you asking about the woman across the street?” I thought this conversation was about firewood?

    She says, ”I’m flirting with you, dummy.”

    I do a mental head slap. For three years, all I get is No No No and now she wants to flirt. Well, I’m not a very romantic guy. If she wants to talk to me, she should come over and take her clothes off.


    *EDIT*
    Stratiyevskaya said, in her essay on LIE-ESI Duality, that relations between this Dual pair proceed quickly and practically without a lot of elaborate formalities, because for both of them, “Life is work.”
    This seems to be exactly the attitude that I am defaulting to.
    I think you and I may miss things. Like maybe the neighbor has a crush on you so the lawncare worker thought you were in a relationship....but...her asking about the neighbor could be construed as flirting in that she's trying to see if you're free.

    But, were the years of 'no's only about the neighbor? or was it something else? CAN SHE GIVE ACCOUNT when it comes to those 'no's?
    I mean, people don't owe us explanations, but if she wants to date you, I think it's a good idea.

    Okay, this sounds weird, and...she MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT be healthy to date, but just being blunt and saying the 'when you said no over the years, I concluded you are not interested in dating me, and you being open to it now makes me wonder why you said no then and i f you really are attracted to me now.' that lays out your thought process and hints at the vulnerability that lies underneath. It could work. You might BOTH be being self-protective. That might be enough frank vulnerability to indicate you're looking for something real and not to hurt nor be hurt.

    Listen to yoursel f about whether that's a good idea with this person.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Lord Pixel, I just realized that I have a better explanation for the quotation above that you found.

    Normally, I'm engaged in highly rational Te activities and I'm not considering Fi human relations much at all. This means that I can go out and explore and influence the world in my limited way without needing too much in the way of deeply personal human interactions.

    However, just because I don't need much in the way of human interactions on an intimate level, does not mean that I don't need ANY human interactions. I actually do need to know that I am loved in a deeply personal way by someone.

    Stratiyevskaya said it very well:

    "Going out on a long journey or venturing on a risky venture, the LIE must feel assured that his "rear flank" is covered and that he has a "warm home" to return to - a place where someone is waiting for him and where he needs to return. For LIE it is very important to realize that he is very needed and dear to somebody, that his life is very valuable and significant, that there is somebody out there who loves him, who cares and waits for him. If there is nobody like this, the risks that the LIE takes on diminish in their value - his life and his work become meaningless. In accordance with the system of values ​​of the third quadra and of his dual dyad, the LIE risks himself for the success and well-being of his "team."

    His "team" is a specific group of people with whom he is associated by strong tries and reliable relations. For the sake of friendship, love, respect and peace of these people the LIE is ready to take on any load, both physical and psychological, to endure thought any tests, to go for any risks and sacrifices - but it all makes sense only if this is needed by somebody."


    As she stated, I can go out and do things in the real world without much in the way of human support, but I have to know that someone is available who cares about me.

    With my LSI GF, we'd not talk much during the week, and then we'd spend the weekend together, doing things that were either maintenance or just plain fun. We'd go camping, visit museums, walk in the woods, go swimming in a local lake, go on mini-trips to nearby interesting places, go to sports events, or sometimes we'd work on repairs to her home or car or do yard maintenance. Being with her in these times was easy and fun, with only a little of the gear-grinding that Mirage produces.

    In her case, I think she got a kick out of deciding what she wanted to do and then getting me to do it. Aside from the fun of going on trips, she also got her house and car repaired. Her life opened up tremendously as a result of our interactions. In my case, doing all this stuff was just a continuation of my regular life, so it was falling-down easy for me to do, and what I got in return was the knowledge that she loved me.

    Now, she only had Role Fi, but to a starving man, bread and water are a feast.

    I actually think that LSE's and LIE's are damaged or undeveloped in a particular way, in the sense that we have what is called one dimensional Fi, but is what I think of as retarded Fi. I actually think that Te-doms are stuck in an early development stage of children where, for example, the mother takes the little kid to the playground and he runs off to explore, and then stops, turns around, runs back to his mother to make sure that she's still there for him, and once reassured, goes off again to explore, his mother temporarily forgotten until the "love assurance" runs out and he has to return to her again.

    Certainly, I've seen an LSE call home from work several times a day to check on his wife and ask her what she's doing and does she need anything. It is really the LSE who needs to know where his wife is, and he's the one who needs something from her. He needs her steady and reassuring existence. In return, he'll pick up dinner on the way home, pay for the house, and fix the toaster when he gets there. Because he can.

    In my own case, I think I need to close the distance between me and my SO and be intimate for a while, until the "love meter" reads "full", and then I can go off and do things independently, working only with my Te and Ni, until the supply of love runs out and I need to return to fill it up again. But I need to know that she is nearby and is available when I need her. That is essential. I need that like oxygen.
    I love this. it explains my own needs so much...and my challenges. But, I don't think it's bad that our fi resembles a little kid looking in an adventure looking back and checking we're loved. I think it's actually (depending on if we handle it honorably) just a trait. It could be hella romantic to some ESIs....that we want them and look back while we're off adventuring. And, it could be an adaptive trait, helping us remember not to be an asshole and make it so a person has to leave us.
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I think you and I may miss things. Like maybe the neighbor has a crush on you so the lawncare worker thought you were in a relationship....but...her asking about the neighbor could be construed as flirting in that she's trying to see if you're free.
    @nanashi, I completely agree with you that you and I miss things when it comes to relationships. Thinking back, there were a lot of girls who seemed to like me, or mutual friends told me that they liked me, but at the time, I was completely unaware of their interest.
    In the case of this ESI, I think you're right: she's trying to see if I am free, or if I'm interested at all in the woman across the street. The truth is, I'm anti-interested. My neighbor is a nice person, now stay away.
    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    But, were the years of 'no's only about the neighbor? or was it something else? CAN SHE GIVE ACCOUNT when it comes to those 'no's?
    I mean, people don't owe us explanations, but if she wants to date you, I think it's a good idea.
    I've thought about her behavior a lot, and I think the years of her stand-offishness were simply due to her not wanting to leave her comfort zone and having no idea about the passage of time, combined with the fact that she'd never, ever interacted with an interested LIE at close range. She had no one to compare me to, and so assumed I'm like everyone she's ever met before. It was only my steady persistence that gradually enabled her to "see" me. I think that, to her, I look kind of like a comet from the outer solar system. Something dim or unnoticed for months in the night sky, never seen before, and then one night it shows up all across the sky. Our one date went really, really well, for a date that didn't include any sex, or kissing, or even touching. It was all conversation. She's had a long time to think about that, and I think she's probably comparing that date to every single day of her life before and since then, and comparing me to her other male acquaintances, and now she's slightly curious.

    Or maybe she just decided she needs some attention from someone who might give her some. I really have no idea what she's thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Okay, this sounds weird, and...she MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT be healthy to date, but just being blunt and saying the 'when you said no over the years, I concluded you are not interested in dating me, and you being open to it now makes me wonder why you said no then and i f you really are attracted to me now.' that lays out your thought process and hints at the vulnerability that lies underneath. It could work. You might BOTH be being self-protective. That might be enough frank vulnerability to indicate you're looking for something real and not to hurt nor be hurt.

    Listen to yoursel f about whether that's a good idea with this person.
    Lol. You think she might not be healthy to date? That's hilarious. Where did you get that idea? From the fact that she's 44 and still single? From the fact that she falls for guys who are the same type as her father? From the fact that she says "No" to every single advance?

    I have no idea where you got the idea that she might not be healthy. SMH.

    Still, I'm not the most normal person I know, either.

    I'm interested in her because she's incredibly easy to be around (for eight hours, AFAIK*) and she's pretty and she's funny. But I'm also pretty sure she has some serious problems when it comes to trust and relationships. I've thought about this a lot, which is why I'm taking a laissez-faire approach to future contacts with her. I'm not running away, but I'm done chasing her. If she wants to go out again, I'll go out with her, but I'm going to be very, very cautious.

    Your advice about being open with her is really good. Thanks.

    *

    The only time I was with her that I saw a red flag was when I was helping her locate a rumbling noise in her car (not on the date). I had driven it to an open parking lot and was under the car looking for loose brake parts or play in the universal joint, and she's standing next to the car, bitching about something instead of being grateful that I'm helping her. It wasn't a big deal; it was more like one of those windows which open up during a date, where the woman is rude to the waiter and you're picturing yourself as the waiter in twenty years.
    This woman is ESI e6, for sure.

    ESI's come in three flavors; e4's who are a bit too "Tragic Romantic" for me, e6's who are active and go out and do things but who seem to hold me at arm's length because they trust no one, not even god, and e9's, who are easy to get along with but seem very passive, almost asleep, until they are not.
    After living life with my problematic mother, who was violent, narcissistic, cold and selfish, I'm looking for kindness in a woman first. Not someone who is just going to bitch about things not being perfect.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-29-2020 at 05:27 PM.

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    I was having lunch with a male ESI whose wife left him, and we were talking about our relationships and dating.

    He said that his ex-wife was from the Philippines and was single when they met, but after he married her, she sent for her two sons to come and live with them. “And then we were four”, he said.
    ”I don’t want to think that....man, I don’t want to go there, but you know....”

    ”You’ll find someone better. So will I. We just have to get out there and mingle.”

    He looked out the window. ”I sometimes think about how things were before I was married. You know, going out on dates.” He stared at his beer. “That was a lot of work. I mean, it was work.”



    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-29-2020 at 08:13 PM.

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