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Thread: ESI/LIE Conversations

  1. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I took an ESI (BD-her initials for my records) to The Black Pearl*, one of the nicest restaurants in town. The reservation happened to be the day before Valentines Day, which historically has been a very bad day for me in past years. Not just sequential disasters with women, but also in business dealings. The historical record has been two major, major breakups, some very bad days with women, and one house closing which has been a financial loss. The day is not my lucky day.

    This is our fourth or fifth date and she said once again that she only wants to be friends. She said that she can’t see herself ever being in a close relationship again, after her two previous husbands and some very crappy boyfriends. She said she was only on Match.com because her shrink told her she needed to get out of the house and meet new people. I seem to be getting nowhere with her, but I’m discovering a lot because she’s the first ESI I’ve ever been on “formal” dates with.
    For example, when I compare her to my two LSI girlfriends, with the ESI, I’ve managed to shake her hand. With the LSI’s, we were having hot sex at this point.

    Someone wrote that Mirage relationships (LIE-LSI) are relationships of increasing relaxation, and I completely agree with this, because I’ve been expecting this to happen with the ESI, as it did with the LSIs, and it is not happening. I feel comfortable around the ESI, but not relaxed. It’s more like I feel like I should be doing better in my life than I am.

    The ESI ordered white wine and I ordered black coffee and we both had the clam chowder and the trout. As we were eating, I was looking around. The theme was black and dark, with ghostly sails rotating over our heads and the only illumination coming from behind the wall of bottles over the bar. The effect was like being on a ghost ship in the dead of night, adrift off the coast with the lights of a city burning on the coast.

    The chowder was average, but the trout was excellent. As we ate, the ESI said
    ”My father choked to death on food.”
    I thought, “???????”
    ”He only halfway swallowed. His eyes got really big and he looked scared. I called for help but my brother ran out of the room. I guess he’d never seen a person die before.”


    So, another typical Valentines Day for me.



    *

    The Black Pearl is a fictional ship in the Pirates of the Caribbean film series. In the screenplay, the Black Pearl is easily recognized by her distinctive black hull and sails. Captained by Captain Jack Sparrow, she is said to be "nigh uncatchable". - Wikipedia
    it's cool psychologically when people share shit. yes, that's a lot for a dinner divulgement, and this person is only here for friendship, but....cool opportunity to connect

  2. #242
    Moharu's Avatar
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    ESI-LIE Anime gayness count?

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    I know a gay ESI. We’ve known each other for ten years and have had many conversations. He even “defended” me against a group that was critical of how much I took from the company vs how much I contributed. Lol.

    He’s a good guy but he’s deep in the closet. I think he secretly wishes that I were gay, also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moharu View Post


    ESI-LIE Anime gayness count?
    I rarely see our weirdness captured so well. I feel seen af


    rarely see our duality depicted so well, either

  5. #245
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    He’s a good guy but he’s deep in the closet. I think he secretly wishes that I were gay, also.
    Straight guys often think that but it's really doubtful. We really don't want you - although I know 'straight guy' fetish porn is popular it usually seems to me like some fringe thing for guys that can't come out yet. Straight male pheromones are a huge turn-off to real gay guys. Whenever I smell my sister's boyfriends
    I end up gagging. I don't even know how she can even do that.

    If we appear extra nice or friendly or even crush-y somewhat- it might be because certain str8 male logics can balance out gay male emotions or something I don't know lol. And we often deeply appreciate a nice straight guy that isn't a bully or douche (cuz its such a stereotype to encounter a str8 male asshole, it's kinda refreshing if he's tapped into his humanity or 'sensitive' side). But I doubt it's romantic at all.

    Or maybe I'm wrong and he really likes you. That probably would fade the more he comes out of the closet though.



  6. #246
    C-ESI-Se sx/sp ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post


    Straight guys often think that but it's really doubtful. We really don't want you - although I know 'straight guy' fetish porn is popular it usually seems to me like some fringe thing for guys that can't come out yet. Straight male pheromones are a huge turn-off to real gay guys. Whenever I smell my sister's boyfriends
    I end up gagging. I don't even know how she can even do that.

    If we appear extra nice or friendly or even crush-y somewhat- it might be because certain str8 male logics can balance out gay male emotions or something I don't know lol. And we often deeply appreciate a nice straight guy that isn't a bully or douche (cuz its such a stereotype to encounter a str8 male asshole, it's kinda refreshing if he's tapped into his humanity or 'sensitive' side). But I doubt it's romantic at all.

    Or maybe I'm wrong and he really likes you. That probably would fade the more he comes out of the closet though.


    straight guy fetish porn. when i say quarantine has kinda messed me up i think people don't take me seriously

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post


    Straight guys often think that but it's really doubtful. We really don't want you - although I know 'straight guy' fetish porn is popular it usually seems to me like some fringe thing for guys that can't come out yet. Straight male pheromones are a huge turn-off to real gay guys. Whenever I smell my sister's boyfriends
    I end up gagging. I don't even know how she can even do that.

    If we appear extra nice or friendly or even crush-y somewhat- it might be because certain str8 male logics can balance out gay male emotions or something I don't know lol. And we often deeply appreciate a nice straight guy that isn't a bully or douche (cuz its such a stereotype to encounter a str8 male asshole, it's kinda refreshing if he's tapped into his humanity or 'sensitive' side). But I doubt it's romantic at all.

    Or maybe I'm wrong and he really likes you. That probably would fade the more he comes out of the closet though.


    @BandD, the ESI has never indicated in the slightest that he's sexually interested in me. Instead, we've known each other for ten years and we really just get along well. As in, we respect and support each other and depend on each other to some extent. I think he likes the ease with which we get along.

    I always thought that the ESI was just a loner, since he lives alone and doesn't date. I didn't know he was gay until about two years ago, when he took up with a gay male ILI. They started hanging out together which was normal enough and then they'd have these spats, which seemed weird for co-workers but kind of natural for sex partners. I got the impression that the ESI wanted a guy who was more extroverted, and the ILI wanted a guy who chased him harder. The ESI just seemed really frustrated sometimes when the ILI would put him off for no reason, even for little things like when they would go to lunch together.

    I think that the ESI was comparing his relationship with the ILI to his relationship with me, and that's why I said that I thought he wished I were gay. Not because he's lusting for me. I'd absolutely say that he is not. But rather because our interaction is smoother and more about what each of us is expecting from another person, while his relationship with the ILI is full of little jarring incidents.

    He has hinted at how he feels about his situation in conversations with me before. He's said that, everything considered, he's pretty happy with his choices.

    "Everything considered" is the important part.

  8. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    straight guy fetish porn. when i say quarantine has kinda messed me up i think people don't take me seriously
    ESI to ESI, i take you seriously

    (and i've also felt that some haven't really understood what i meant when i've tried to describe how quarantine has affected me...:/ oh well, i let it pass. i get it and enough of my friends get it. found this article helpful for giving voice to some of it, most usefully the longer-term trends that even preceded quarantine life, that i wasnt necessarily aware of before quarantine began: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/19/m...n-culture.html)

  9. #249
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    ESI sp/sx (initials BD), to LIE: The last guy I went out with said he wanted to see my cat. That sounded strange. I asked my girlfriend what he meant by that. She said, "You know. Your cat."

    LIE: -_-

    LIE thinks, "I can't read this at all. Is she really this dumb? Why did she bring up sex? And why does this feel like a warning?"


    I think I'm having a problem with the ESI's ambiguity. I've had two long-term LSI GFs, and there was no ambiguity with them at all.
    It's exactly like what @Rebelondeck described here:


    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    LSIs are very literal. Only quantifiable things are acceptable and only quantifiable things are produced; there's very little ambiguity with them at all.
    ESIs prefer quantifiable input but often don't produce it for others; they can be quite ambiguous but hate it when someone else is. They seem to turn quantifiable information into the qualitative, which can make them rather inventive in an artistic sense.
    ESIs tend to have much thinner skins and seem less confident in themselves than LSIs, but this can be all for show. LSIs seem far more rigid, inflexible and or regimented while ESIs have a soft outer layer that covers an equally hard interior. To tell them apart, look for a soft coat, and if it's not there, think LSI......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-28-2021 at 03:30 PM.

  10. #250
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    On 1D Fi vs. 4D Fi: Assholes vs. Emotional Nuance

    #1

    ESI to LIE: “I’m not advancing in my work. Some of the other girls that hired in at the same time I did are making five, ten dollars an hour more than me. But when the bosses say, “Let’s go out for pizza and beer”, the other girls do that. I don’t. I just want to work.
    “I think my problem is that I’m just not willing to act like a prostitute to get ahead.”

    LIE to ESI: “You’re not wrong. You have to stick with who you are. Your problem is that you’re too faithful.
    “A better solution than trying to fit in where you are right now would be to simply apply to different places to work. Ask for a LOT more money. Most places will say No, but eventually you’ll find a place that likes you and is willing to pay you more.”

    ESI just looks at LIE: “That’s very black-and-white thinking.”

    LIE thinks, “It is?”




    #2 ESI tolerance of assholes:

    LIE to ESI: “I’ve never actually gone out with a woman like you before. I had drunk sex with one once and she was actually pretty great, but she lived too far away to keep doing that.
    “There is this one woman that I think is perfect, but she’s 26 and she likes women.”

    ESI to LIE: “The Artist? You told me about her before.”

    LIE: “Yes. I don't think that her sleeping with women is actually an impediment in my book. I’m not sure….”

    ESI: “You think she’s just young and is still making random choices?”

    LIE: “I don’t know.”

    ESI: “Maybe you should just ask her.”

    LIE thinks, “She’s amazingly tolerant of a guy talking about banging other women when she’s sitting across a restaurant table from him. Is this some kind of nuanced, complex ethical thinking which understands all things?”

  11. #251
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    On ESIs “Dealing a Blow”

    ESI Nurse, to LIE, over lunch: “I get along with most of the doctors, but some of them are just jerks. I once arrived at the hospital and two nurses came out of the operating room in tears. “He’s being so mean”, they said.
    “I told them that I’d take over. I went in and the doctor said, “Did you bring the (insert the name of some surgical instrument that I didn’t catch – ed.)?

    “I said (here the ESI shifts to a forceful, sarcastic, extremely critical voice) “No, because I’m a complete fucking idiot.”
    “He behaved himself for the rest of the day.

    “Sometimes, I think they think I’m Nurse Ratched, but I don’t care. He made those two nurses cry.”

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    On ESIs “Dealing a Blow”

    ESI Nurse, to LIE, over lunch: “I get along with most of the doctors, but some of them are just jerks. I once arrived at the hospital and two nurses came out of the operating room in tears. “He’s being so mean”, they said.
    “I told them that I’d take over. I went in and the doctor said, “Did you bring the (insert the name of some surgical instrument that I didn’t catch – ed.)?

    “I said (here the ESI shifts to a forceful, sarcastic, extremely critical voice) “No, because I’m a complete fucking idiot.”
    “He behaved himself for the rest of the day.

    “Sometimes, I think they think I’m Nurse Ratched, but I don’t care. He made those two nurses cry.”
    I don't see how this was dealing a blow. Does it relate to low valued Fi? My spontaneous reaction to that would be "Well, go back and get it then, and lose the attitude"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    I don't see how this was dealing a blow. Does it relate to low valued Fi? My spontaneous reaction to that would be "Well, go back and get it then, and lose the attitude"
    I don't think she ever loses the attitude, to be honest. She seems to be unaffected by other people.

    As for "dealing a blow", she did make the surgeon change his behavior. I suspect that she had some sixth sense about what would work with him. If he had been an SLE, she might have directly criticized his moral behavior in front of the other doctors, IDK.

    I've never interacted with a female ESI for so long before. She's very different from other women. She dresses like a runway model and acts like she has to correct the world's morals. I've been taking her to lunch for months and she's never worn the same thing twice.

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    Male LIE, walking to a restaurant with a female ESI: "Do you notice that people look at you?"
    ESI, incredulously: "People look at me? No."
    LIE: "Well, I noticed. People look at you. Women look at you."
    ESI: "No, I never noticed that."
    LIE thinks: I'm jealous. Women never look at me.

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    Female ESI, to LIE: "When I was a little girl, I wanted to be a runway model."
    Male LIE thinks "Don't say anything. Don't say anything."
    Female ESI: "They walk like this." She walks in a straight line, putting one foot in line in front of the other with each step.
    Male LIE: "Uh huh."

  17. #257
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    I don't see how this was dealing a blow. Does it relate to low valued Fi? My spontaneous reaction to that would be "Well, go back and get it then, and lose the attitude"
    actually that seems to be a SEE-ESI (Se subtyle, high neuroticism) interaction, when SEEs are mad ESIs can calm them down by threathening to act even more crazy than they do - usually works.

    SLEs are more low key...i haven't seen really ESIs and SLEs fight...
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    actually that seems to be a SEE-ESI (Se subtyle, high neuroticism) interaction, when SEEs are mad ESIs can calm them down by threathening to act even more crazy than they do - usually works.

    SLEs are more low key...i haven't seen really ESIs and SLEs fight...
    I've known an ESI-Se artist for about eight years (and been in limerance with her almost since Day One) who, at one time, had an SLE-Se GF. I didn't see them fight, but I did see the ESI give the SLE a look like "What the fuck do you think you're doing?" They broke up shortly after that.

    Just for the record, the ESI-Se Artist now has a new GF, and by VI, she's an ESI-Se.

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I've known an ESI-Se artist for about eight years (and been in limerance with her almost since Day One) who, at one time, had an SLE-Se GF. I didn't see them fight, but I did see the ESI give the SLE a look like "What the fuck do you think you're doing?" They broke up shortly after that.

    Just for the record, the ESI-Se Artist now has a new GF, and by VI, she's an ESI-Se.
    Also consider that ESIs and SLEs have IxFx - ExTx temperament compatibility. One is feeler introvert the other one extroverted thinker there isn´t much overlap except when SLEs become to "sensing" and reach their Se apex

    Many adult SLEs have occupations where strong Te is required
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Also consider that ESIs and SLEs have IxFx - ExTx temperament compatibility. One is feeler introvert the other one extroverted thinker there isn´t much overlap except when SLEs become to "sensing" and reach their Se apex

    Many adult SLEs have occupations where strong Te is required
    This particular woman is an ESI-Se artist who was raised by an SEE father (who constantly took pictures of her and posted them to his social media accounts. Take a look at what Stratiyevskaya, an ESI herself, says about ESI-SEE relationships) and an EIE mother who is a psychologist with cult-creation tendencies. (“Dissolve your own ego, give yourself up to my greater cause and follow me. Become me.”)

    If the woman is consistently choosing female Se-doms for partners, then she’s still at the personal development stage where she’s looking for personal validation of her own identity, rather than being at a stage where she is happy with who she is and confident in her strengths and is merely looking for someone (an LIE-Ni) to cover her own clear weaknesses.

    In my considered opinion.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-15-2021 at 01:41 AM.

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    I have some art in my house that was made by an ESI-Se artist. One of the pieces, made when the artist was eighteen and in my opinion one of my best commissions, is on the wall right next to the door, so you can see it when you leave.

    When I was dating an LSI, she stopped and examined it.
    “That’s not very good”, she said.

    The LSI is gone.

    I’m now dating an ESI occasionally. She saw it, paused, touched it, and said “This is beautiful. I really like it.”
    ”I like it, too”, I said.
    She stepped back. “I like the way the light reflects off the tiles, and the depth, and the colors....”
    ”Yes. Notice the dichotomy between the two sides of the picture, how they are represented as opposites, but joined into one single entity. Like Duality. She met me, we talked, and then she created this. When she was eighteen. I have more of her art in my room. Maybe I’ll show it to you sometime.”

    Finding your own tribe is half the battle.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-14-2021 at 11:51 AM.

  22. #262
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I have some art in my house that was made by an ESI-Se artist. One of the pieces, made when the artist was eighteen and in my opinion one of my best commissions, is on the wall right next to the door, so you can see it when you leave.

    When I was dating an LSI, she stopped and examined it.
    “That’s not very good”, she said.

    The LSI is gone.

    I’m now dating an ESI occasionally. She saw it, paused, touched it, and said “This is beautiful. I really like it.”
    ”I like it, too”, I said.
    She stepped back. “I like the way the light reflects off the tiles, and the depth, and the colors....”
    ”Yes. Notice the dichotomy between the two sides of the picture, how they are represented as opposites, but joined into one single entity. Like Duality. She met me, we talked, and then she created this. When she was eighteen. I have more of her art in my room. Maybe I’ll show it to you sometime.”

    Finding your own tribe is half the battle.
    Glad you are occasionally dating an ESI. : )

    This art mention here is so interesting because it coincides exactly with what I was thinking about this morning.

    I spend time compiling N.C. Wyeth's illustrations and paintings for the Favorite Art thread (Here, starting with post #145) It took time but it was a labor of love because I LOVE N.C. Wyeth's work! It's ideal, perfect to me. I wondered why not a single person hit "like". Did everyone not-like? Now, reflecting on what you say here, it seems actually possible that a lot of people just are indifferent, for Socionics reasons.

    So I am reading a big think bio book on N.C. Wyeth now. I immediately realized Howard Pyle, his first teacher/mentor, was EIE, and that is based on what you said of EIE and cult-starting: “Dissolve your own ego, give yourself up to my greater cause and follow me. Become me.” - that could have been Pyle's motto. (Pyle was criticized for making his students into copies of himself, which also Wyeth later rebelled against). And Wyeth's wife was clearly SEI. But why hadn't I figured out Wyeth? Then I realized, I could not rule out IEE. But no, I must be flattering myself that such an amazing artist, that I so idealize, would be IEE.

    But now I do think IEE. For so many reasons. Yes, if I had been born a genius, I would probably paint like Wyeth. In fact, as I wrote this, I realized I did an illustration for a book (not published - but the author told me the publisher liked my illustrations) and it only now occurs to me it truly looks like an N.C. Wyeth-type illustration. I have never been able to post pics here from my computer files (only from internet) but if I can figure it out I will later) but the boy is in an action position, and with the landscape behind, and the big sky, with super fluffy clouds, and it's very its mindful of Wyeth's work, which I never thought of when I drew it - perhaps an unconscious association with a picture seen long-ago, before I studied his work? Or, maybe IEE minds think alike.

    Mark Twain, also an IEE. I absolutely LOVED his Joan of Arc, which he absolutely loved, too, considering it to be the pinnacle of his literary works.

    So the point is, it makes sense that art is not appreciated only for it's level of accomplishment and professionalism, but also for whether the artist's Socionics values speak to yours. Which you illustrate in the above example perfectly. The art by an 18 year old may not have been done at the pinnacle of her professionalism, but likely it was a very clear ESI expression, which did not resonate with the LSI, but did with the ESI. We are drawn to our tribe's values and expressions. : ) (Also literary works. Twain's Joan of Arc is one of the best reads of my life.)
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  23. #263
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    ESI: you are a fascist robo pig

    LIE: hehe *sends ESI 1000 dollars*

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    I’ve been taking an ESI whom I met on Match.com out on dates for a few months and I’ve been learning a lot about ESIs. You can read about a type for years, but it doesn’t compare to (although it might slightly prepare you for) the real thing.

    The dates consist mainly of me providing her with positive Se experiences, like taking her somewhere that is outdoors and pleasant, or taking her to a nice restaurant where the food and ambiance are excellent. I expected her to want to spend time shopping, but when I suggested this, she said she doesn’t like to shop that much. Which is exactly what another ESI once told me. This is hard to believe, because both of them dress with great taste, but let’s assume it’s true. I’m postponing judgement on this question.

    She did, however, tell me that she was at a fair and they gave her a coupon worth $5 towards any purchase, so she impulse-bought a $30 jacket because she could get it for $25. I just shook my head. I had already read that ESIs can spend a lot to save a little.

    What she does on these dates is talk about her relationships. Mostly, her bad relationships.

    We were sitting on a stone terrace in front of an 1886 train station converted to a restaurant, having a light, late afternoon snack of scallops and clams and a dry white wine, and she was telling me about her life.

    She was married at 17 to an SEE who was in the Navy and sold drugs. She married him because he got her pregnant and she divorced him two years later because his drug habit was becoming dangerous for her and her son.

    She then moved in with an LSI who, she thought, would provide a father-figure for her son, married him, and then he moved them into a trailer next to a busy road and proceeded to cheat on her with his previous GF. But, perhaps because she lacks strong Ni, she stayed with him, maybe because she had a hard time imagining anything else.

    After many years, the LSI cleaned out their bank accounts, moved in with a younger woman, and told the ESI that he'd never been happy with her. The ESI got a divorce lawyer who was an alcoholic and a womanizer who managed to give the LSI all of the marriage’s savings in exchange for letting the ESI share his GM health insurance and only got a separation, not a divorce, because he filed the wrong papers. When the ESI complained about this, the lawyer asked her if she had a law degree? HE had a law degree! Because the ESI was extremely depressed after this, her divorce lawyer told her that she should see a psychiatrist, who happened to be a friend of his (and who accepted only cash as payments).

    The psychiatrist told her that she was too socially isolated, and that was causing her to be depressed (not the fact that his buddy, her divorce lawyer, was a terrible lawyer. Please don’t even think about suing the guy, because everything is YOUR fault), and she should go on Match.com and start dating again.

    I took a sip of water from the clear crystal glass, scraped the crab encrusted scallop out of the half shell with my fork and said, “Well, that seems to have worked out. It was through Match that I met you. As for the rest of that, you should just let it go. It’s over and done with.” One of the guys at a neighboring table was staring at her.

    She said, “After telling my psychiatrist all my experiences, he said there must be something wrong with me. Something is wrong with my man-radar.” And then she stared at me, flatly.

    Was this a challenge to me? Was she joking or being serious? Is she really dumb or really smart? Damn, I can’t tell. I can’t exactly read her when she says things like this, but I think it’s funny.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-18-2021 at 05:15 PM.

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    ESI: "I left my first husband because he was using drugs, and G---, my second husband, left me for a younger supply."
    LIE: "These guys sound like complete assholes."
    ESI: ".........."
    (LIE realizes that he's just called her life choices stupid.)
    LIE: "Sorry. I don't filter much. There's, like, no difference between what I think and what I say."
    ESI: "That's OK. It's even a good thing. It saves me from wondering what you are thinking."

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    ESI: "My husband lied to me. My lawyer lied to me. The psychologist that my lawyer recommended to me lied to me. It makes me wonder if everyone is lying to me?"

    LIE: "Well, I'm not lying to you. The only way I can lie is to omit the truth. Not tell the whole truth, that is."

    (ESI then changes the topic of the conversation, but not the nature of the conversation.)

    ESI: "All during my marriage, I thought we were working for us, but I guess my husband thought we were working for his benefit."

    LIE: "Everyone treats everyone else as if they were a Dual. You thought you were in an equal relationship, but you were in a hierarchical one. Your husband's Dual wouldn't have let him take all the money."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ESI: "My husband lied to me. My lawyer lied to me. The psychologist that my lawyer recommended to me lied to me. It makes me wonder if everyone is lying to me?"

    LIE: "Well, I'm not lying to you. The only way I can lie is to omit the truth. Not tell the whole truth, that is."

    (ESI then changes the topic of the conversation, but not the nature of the conversation.)

    ESI: "All during my marriage, I thought we were working for us, but I guess my husband thought we were working for his benefit."

    LIE: "Everyone treats everyone else as if they were a Dual. You thought you were in an equal relationship, but you were in a hierarchical one. Your husband's Dual wouldn't have let him take all the money."
    Socioception.

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    In another thread, BandD said
    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post

    Why do you even believe LIE/ESI is such a good relationship anyway? It's moronic. If it was so good- you would be with a ESI woman happily ever after instead of here all the time. So I don't think it's that shocking or 'news' when a famous LIE/ESI breaks up. Duality is a weird thing- you really idealize it on here but often times living with a dual your polr can get hit a lot and not really protected even tho 'in theory' that's not supposed to happen. Depending on different stimuli I think demonstrative functions can turn into ego ones.


    I was talking to an ESI over dinner in a restaurant and she was complaining that her ILI son has quit his law job and his movie career and is now working for Amazon and has moved three times in the past three years.

    I immediately thought of the process/results divide in Socionics. XXXp's want to take life as it comes, and XXXj's want to crush it into their plans.

    She went on to say that she offered to help him move, but he always refuses.

    It's so obvious that she really loves him and wants to help him and that her son feels like he's being smothered by his mother's attentions because he's Fe-PoLR.

    I told her that I have eleven friends just like him, and they are all like that. They aren't unfriendly and they don't hate their mothers, but rather they have this aversion to public displays of affection.

    LIE: "It's a weakness, and everyone has one. In your son's case, it's called Fe-PoLR. In my case, my weakness is my inability to make a comfortable house or to take care of my health. It's basically one of the reasons why it's so hard for Duals to meet. You're a nurse and you spend all your time in hospitals. I haven't been in a hospital since I broke my foot ten years ago. Before that, it was for my son's birth, and before that, it was for my own birth. So how could we meet each other?"

    "To give you some idea of what this feels like, your own weakness is having too many choices. When I invited you out yesterday..."

    ESI: "You gave me a list of three possible things we could do."

    LIE: "Yes, and that was two too many. I should have just asked for one thing, and then you could say Yes or No, and if No, then I could suggest a second thing. Then a third. You guys don't like to have too many choices."

    ESI: "Like that woman at the Farmers market just now. She seemed OK, but then she started offering us different items and different combinations of items for different prices and I just wanted to get out of there."

    LIE: "Exactly. Well, the way you felt about her offering you too many choices is exactly the way your son feels when you rush over to give him a hug and offer to help him and his friends move.
    "Guys like your son are really good guys and they can really care about people, -more than me, actually-, but they don't like public displays of affection. When I see one of my friends of this type, I usually just tell them to stop being a dick to strangers. That shows them that I know them well, as a friend, and I'm not going to embarrass them with a big hug. And then we're good."

    LIE, to ESI: "Now, there's not much you can do about this particular weakness (meaning the PoLR), but you can work around it with a Dual. For example, you guys are fantastic people. You take care of things right away, you clearly see what needs to be done, you work hard and save money, and yet you are almost never the CEO. It's because CEOs have to make lots of multiple-option choices, none of which have a right answer."

    The ESIs eyes got really big and she said "Yes", as if that explained to her why someone as talented and as aggressive as she was, wasn't in the top slot.

    ESI: "So is that why your house is so dirty?"

    Ouch. PoLR hit. Because Yes, that's actually why my house is so dirty. When I'm living alone, I'm not spending all my time cleaning. I don't see the dirt or the chaos very well and I certainly don't want to spend my life cleaning it up. I suck at this and I know it.

    When I arrived at the ESI's house, she was mowing the grass "because the neighbors mowed their grass yesterday."
    My grass gets mowed by the people I pay to do it, not by me. But at least I know what this is all about. This has a solution, and it doesn't involve me being critical of myself.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 05-17-2021 at 02:11 PM.

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    Probably no one reading this has ever had the experience of manually changing gears in a non-synchromesh transmission, but I've done it many times. I had an old Jaguar sports car with so much engine torque that the synchromesh rings on first and second gears were gone. Also, I drove a very, very old Volkswagon Beetle that some guy was rebuilding when he stalled it and couldn't figure out how to get it back in gear.

    In these old cars, the gears mesh together perfectly, but shifting from one gear to another involves a special technique called "double clutching" and if not done just right, will grind the gears together as they are trying to engage the teeth. Hence the phrase in relationships "grinding the gears".

    The very Republican ESI that I've been seeing finally said that she had some time available after 1:30 PM on Sunday, so I went over to her house to pick her up for a late lunch. When I got there, I noticed that she has a picture of an old woman saying grace before a meal on her wall, a picture of Christ teaching the children on a different wall, and a pot full of orchids on the coffee table in her living room.

    Since orchids are Beta, not Gamma, I figured that she hadn't bought them, and I asked her about them.

    ESI: "Oh, a man from church gave them to me. We've gone out together several times. I think he's lonely because he's single now."

    LIE, thinking that this guy is probably an SLE: "Is this guy really pushy? Like, does he intrude on your space?"

    ESI: "Yes! He has no, what do you call them?, ...boundaries. After our last time out, he called me just as I was going to sleep and said he wanted to talk. I told him not to call me that late because I had to get to sleep, and he said, "What's the matter? Don't you like me?" and I said, "No, I just have to get to sleep because I have to work tomorrow." I'd block him but he belongs to my church."

    ESI, after a long pause: "So, do you go to church?"

    LIE: "No. And to be perfectly honest, I don't believe in God, either." In for a penny, in for a pound.

    ESI, looking away. "Well, I knew you were a liberal."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSb99oSyaa4

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    @Adam Strange lol oh dear. Maybe you should believe in God, because she's even considering you. Also, I know you really want an ESI and she seems decent, but try to get a better feel for how deep her faith feelings/convictions are. If she's made it a part of herself, then it'll be hard on her to decide between you two, whether that comes sooner or later.


    That aside, I feel like ESIs are similar to EIIs in the excommunicating of someone after they've crossed a line. Not a perfect match (particularly in severity, possibly), but similar repositioning of the offender. Where that line is and what it looks like can be very variable depending on the individual (and their attachment styles).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    @Adam Strange lol oh dear. Maybe you should believe in God, because she's even considering you.
    Lol. @Minde, I’m the one who found her on Match. Now, I will admit that I’ve tried to date other ESIs with no long-term luck, and I’ve been talking to this one for a little over a year and she hasn’t told me to get lost yet, but I’m chalking that up to good luck and long preparation and hard work, not prayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Also, I know you really want an ESI and she seems decent, but try to get a better feel for how deep her faith feelings/convictions are. If she's made it a part of herself, then it'll be hard on her to decide between you two, whether that comes sooner or later.
    I’m not planning to interfere with her beliefs or ask her to decide between her religion or me. I was married to a woman who went to church every Sunday and volunteered a lot of her time to the church and tithed. I mean, she tithed. Did I tell her that this a complete waste of money? No, not even when my SLI father told me it was. Did I ever say anything at all about it? No. Did I volunteer the slightest hint in any way that she shouldn’t spend money that way? No. She worked and she earned money and how she spent it was her business, and I expected the same consideration from her in return. So I’m not too concerned about this ESI’s religious views, but rather I’m more concerned that she will be intolerant of mine. And if she rejects me for that, I’d call that her loss.

    One thing I have absolutely learned is that there are other people out there and you can love many of them. You aren’t stuck with just one. I tend to be very loyal and will stick by the decisions I make, until those decisions absolutely can’t be supported any more, and then I will move on without looking back.
    I will admit, I don’t think I will find someone with her exact mix of looks, psychology, habits and history, but that’s OK. I can love a fairly wide spectrum of people, and truthfully, if she and I don’t connect, then I might find someone slightly different whom I like better. I’m only restricting myself to ESIs because I don’t want to work that hard in my relationship. Not as hard as you’d have to work, for example, to stay married to an SLE. And SLEs vary a lot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    That aside, I feel like ESIs are similar to EIIs in the excommunicating of someone after they've crossed a line. Not a perfect match (particularly in severity, possibly), but similar repositioning of the offender. Where that line is and what it looks like can be very variable depending on the individual (and their attachment styles).
    I mostly agree with this, but I think the “break” points and reasons are slightly different between EIIs and ESIs. I’m absolutely certain that she divides the world into Friends and Enemies, based on her experiences with those people. She doesn’t do much intuiting. So far, based on what she’s seen of me, I’m in the tentative and possible “Friend” category. But I told her that I’m an alcoholic and I used to do a lot of drugs and I saw panic and alarm bells go off in her head, based on the fact that her first husband bonds by drinking and he used to deal drugs. But I don’t do that anymore, and I think she sees that. But if she eventually decides that I’m not her cup of tea, for whatever reasons, that’s not going to be a huge problem to me.

    There are others.

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    Ok.
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

    "Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue." - Francis Thompson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Ok.

    High resolution Fi commenting on Low resolution Fi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    High resolution Fi commenting on Low resolution Fi.
    You just sounded a little prickly is all. I wanted you to know I read it but didn't feel emotionally up for engaging with it more.

    We're still all good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    You just sounded a little prickly is all. I wanted you to know I read it but didn't feel emotionally up for engaging with it more.

    We're still all good.
    You're right. I reread it and I was being defensive, which is probably not a good sign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    You're right. I reread it and I was being defensive, which is probably not a good sign.
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    When I read the convo @Adam Strange my first reaction was to laugh a bit. I thought she might be sort of making a joke (ESI can be playful?) and also I thought she’s showing that she’s thought about the fact you have different beliefs and what it might mean. Either way, she wasn’t necessarily bothered by your different beliefs? Are there other things that you do agree on? More personal stuff? Attitudes about individuals/ how individuals behave?

    Does it bother you that she’s religious/republican? What are you worried about? Sorry I haven’t read all the comments but I’m curious

    As a left-wing Londoner who went to Catholic school (taught by an ESI nun at one point who loved football lol) I have to say that I think Christianity is socialist/left wing at its heart. It’s super interesting hearing about republican views on this forum. The US is such a big place I think people can feel more secure in voting for a party that is hardline than one that is softer. Religion is something that helps people justify/explore their moral
    choices, but lots of people seem happy to balance religion with being practical
    and progressive (like people on this forum) and are open-minded to views of non-religious people. I suppose you’ll need to talk a bit further with her to see if there is room for discussion in your relationship regarding politics and religion which you can both grow from?
    Last edited by Bethany; 05-26-2021 at 01:31 PM.

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    Um @Adam Strange
    if God is important to her and it’s not inherently important to you (which you cannot change) and she is miffed by it, that might be bit of a problem perhaps. I don’t have any practical advice on something like this as much as some differences that seem like not that big of a deal, can end up emerging as a bigger deal later on

    Esp being Fi lead if she values something she may take it pretty personally at times

    ..but anyways, yeah

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    Quote Originally Posted by asd View Post
    Um @Adam Strange
    if God is important to her and it’s not inherently important to you (which you cannot change) and she is miffed by it, that might be bit of a problem perhaps. I don’t have any practical advice on something like this as much as some differences that seem like not that big of a deal, can end up emerging as a bigger deal later on

    Esp being Fi lead if she values something she may take it pretty personally at times

    ..but anyways, yeah
    Yes, @asd, it might become a problem in the future. I don't think it will, but I've been blind-sided before.

    Her religion might be very important and fundamental to her. After all, the Hidden Agenda of LSIs and ESIs is "to believe". Finding out whom they can believe seems to be the sticking point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    When I read the convo @Adam Strange my first reaction was to laugh a bit. I thought she might be sort of making a joke (ESI can be playful?) and also I thought she’s showing that she’s thought about the fact you have different beliefs and what it might mean. Either way, she wasn’t necessarily bothered by your different beliefs? Are there other things that you do agree on? More personal stuff? Attitudes about individuals/ how individuals behave?
    @Bethany, I don't think she's super-offended by my religious beliefs. She seems to me to mostly be talking to herself sometimes about this, as if saying something out loud enables her to examine it better as a part of her external environment. "Oh, I knew you were a liberal." Not said disparagingly, as I first feared, but rather like "Oh, I knew that male Cardinals have red feathers."

    As to other beliefs where we might differ, she talks about her friends and work and church when we go out, and her stories are mostly about how some people have offended her sense of right and wrong in some way.

    Weirdly enough, if I can follow what she's saying (ESIs are not big on external references), I usually agree with her assessments. I've caught her surprised reaction to me agreeing with her sometimes, and that, more than anything else, seems to be how she gauges me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    Does it bother you that she’s religious/republican? What are you worried about? Sorry I haven’t read all the comments but I’m curious
    When I first started talking to her, she said her husband listens to Rush Limbaugh, and I stalked her and found out that she's a registered Republican. She drives a conservative American car and her house is spotless. What I was afraid of was not that she might be religious, or necessarily a Republican (I was, once, too), but rather that she might be a right-wing Authoritarian. But she isn't.

    Her nail polish is clear/White liberal, not red Conservative, and she seems openly curious about other people.

    When I first met her, her speech was filled with racist and low-class descriptions of out-groups, including Jews, but I hoped that might be due to constant exposure to her factory-rat husband and his friends. And that seems to have been the reason, because I haven't heard that from her recently. Last week, she asked me if I'm on Twitter, because she just discovered that she can talk to real people in Israel on Twitter. She seems to just be naturally curious now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    As a left-wing Londoner who went to Catholic school (taught by an ESI nun at one point who loved football lol) I have to say that I think Christianity is socialist/left wing at its heart. It’s super interesting hearing about republican views on this forum. The US is such a big place I think people can feel more secure in voting for a party that is hardline than one that is softer. Religion is something that helps people justify/explore their moral choices, but lots of people seem happy to balance religion with being practical and progressive (like people on this forum) and are open-minded to views of non-religious people. I suppose you’ll need to talk a bit further with her to see if there is room for discussion in your relationship regarding politics and religion which you can both grow from?
    I think I've established to my satisfaction that she's not an Authoritarian, and with that out of the way, the rest of it is just background noise. Harder still, for me, is the fact that ESIs don't extrapolate, and instead have to decide what they believe and feel towards other people based on their experience.
    SMH.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 05-26-2021 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    @Bethany, I don't think she's super-offended by my religious beliefs. She seems to me to mostly be talking to herself sometimes about this, as if saying something out loud enables her to examine it better as a part of her external environment. "Oh, I knew you were a liberal." Not said disparagingly, as I first feared, but rather like "Oh, I knew that male Cardinals have red feathers."
    Yes I thought so, she is engaging with this information about you (in her own way.) That's how it seems on the surface anyway although my knowledge of ESIs is quite surface level...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    As to other beliefs where we might differ, she talks about her friends and work and church when we go out, and her stories are mostly about how some people have offended her sense of right and wrong in some way.

    Weirdly enough, if I can follow what she's saying (ESIs are not big on external references), I usually agree with her assessments. I've caught her surprised reaction to me agreeing with her sometimes, and that, more than anything else, seems to be how she gauges me.
    That's good, sounds like you have conversations where you are comfortable sharing your true opinions about stuff. Sounds..easy, which might be a good thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    When I first started talking to her, she said her husband listens to Rush Limbaugh, and I stalked her and found out that she's a registered Republican. She drives a conservative American car and her house is spotless. What I was afraid of was not that she might be religious, or necessarily a Republican (I was, once, too), but rather that she might be a right-wing Authoritarian. But she isn't.

    Her nail polish is clear/White liberal, not red Conservative, and she seems openly curious about other people.

    When I first met her, her speech was filled with racist and low-class descriptions of out-groups, including Jews, but I hoped that might be due to constant exposure to her factory-rat husband and his friends. And that seems to have been the reason, because I haven't heard that from her recently. Last week, she asked me if I'm on Twitter, because she just discovered that she can talk to real people in Israel on Twitter. She seems to just be naturally curious now.


    I think I've established to my satisfaction that she's not an Authoritarian, and with that out of the way, the rest of it is just background noise. Harder still, for me, is the fact that ESIs don't extrapolate, and instead have to decide what they believe and feel towards other people based on their experience.
    SMH.
    Haha my knowledge of American politics is not great. But good to hear you are taking the time to think about who she is behind some of the surface level impressions I had a really good ESI friend at uni and I remember when we first started she made some racist comments and tried to defend them. She stopped pretty quickly after people commented on it. She was/is a super nice person (I have had a couple of ESI friends who I just thought of as being very lovely in one way or another). I think I'd be the same when it comes to politics- I wouldn't want their views to be too extremely different to mine. I'm not sure about religion- I don't think I'd want them to be too too religious. It's good you are thinking about it, hopefully it will become clear soon whether it seems you are too different or not. I suppose it depends on if you both want it to work as well..not sure what I mean by that. Btw, does she know about socionics- does she believe in it??

    Well, I have met up with a dual now a couple of times. It does take some time to get to know them..it's really not a clear-cut yes for me atm haha. I do think it can happen sometimes that you just know..but not necessarily. I have my eye on a couple of others :s I feel like I've been making it a bit too easy for the dual I'm talking to atm and he's not making enough effort. It's a funny thing, knowing about socionics when you're getting to know someone in a romantic capacity. Useful of course, but also good to remember that you need to let it be natural..for you to really get to know each other. By making too much effort with the dual, he is perhaps being too relaxed about things and making me think he's not that nice..but maybe I'm not giving him a chance to be lol.
    Last edited by Bethany; 05-27-2021 at 07:12 PM.

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