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Thread: ESI/LIE Conversations

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    ... Could she take a picture of the valve so you could see it? Or call a plumber if you got there and it wasn't the right one? I feel like there are a few more options than what was considered and eliminated, lol. Maybe she was flustered and they didn't occur to her.

    I'm not an ESI, but when I was single one of my plausibly deniable flirting techniques was to ask for advice or help. I had a very similar interaction to the one you describe with my now-husband a few months before we started dating. My car brakes needed replacing and I made a FB post asking for advice from anyone who cared to answer. Of course, the kind of person who would answer and be actually helpful is the kind of person I wanted to interact with more, and I figured it could be a great opportunity to build up some relational strength/ties. My now-husband answered with not only advice but an offer to help me do it if I could bring my car out to where he lived. It turned out those particular brakes were the more complicated kind, and I ended up determining that it would be more practical and efficient to just take it into my regular mechanic, especially since he lived 45 minutes away and I would have been cold the whole time. I wasn't that motivated. So I never actually utilized the offered help.

    Fortunately he still invited me to group things he organized and included me on a few email list kinds of things and appeared at mutual friend gatherings, so I had more opportunities to explore his potential and create connection.

    So, anyway, different dynamic than your particular types, but I thought the similarity in situation was kinda interesting.
    Thanks, @Minde.

    She probably is flirting, but panicked when I suggested meeting her at her place. She is so Avoidant to close relationships that even if she did want to date, I doubt if I'd be into it. I first met her five years ago and she's been "You stay on your side of the planet" since then. I have a need for a shorter feedback loop.

    I first saw my ex-wife at an astronomy club meeting and I resolved to talk to her after the meeting, but she got up and left at the halfway point. I met her again on a field trip that the astronomy club took to Yerkes Observatory, and after that, she asked me if I could come to her apartment to help align her sister's telescope. I said, "Sure."

    Total time, less than one month. And my ex was both sx-last and pretty Avoidant, too. I really don't need a woman who is 60X to 100X more avoidant than my ex.

    I mostly posted that vignette so that people could see an ESI, albeit an Avoidant one, in action.

  2. #202
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    One time after inviting my LIE friend to a punk show with a young crowd...


    LIE: The thing about zoomer culture I have a problem with is its relation to nihilism and postmodernism, the irony isn't even ironic anymore, it's not interesting until it goes around in another loop and starts referencing itself, but that in itself is just an endless feedback loop

    ESI (me): I agree with you but I just got kicked in the head, I think I have a concussion so my brain can't even work through what you just said

  3. #203
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    I’ve been exchanging texts for six months on the dating site Match.com with a recently cheated-on and divorced RN ESI-Si (I know. But she might be an SEI.) . She isn’t very talkative and she doesn’t initiate much, but she recently has been saying nice things about me.

    This feels kind of strange to me because I tend to judge people more by what they do rather than what they say. It’s almost as if she wants to be understood and is telling herself that she likes me before she interacts with me in person.
    Weird. I hope she’s not delusional.

    *EDIT*
    She really puzzles me. In many pictures, she looks either SEI or grumpy ESI. In a couple pictures where she’s kayaking and having the time of her life, she looks EII. In a picture with her family, her father looks Si and her son looks LII and she looks slightly crazy. I think her ex is an Alpha. But when I met her in person, I felt completely comfortable with her and when I talked about investing, she looked pure ESI.
    I wonder if she grew up in an Alpha home and married an Alpha and has been bent and misunderstood and alienated ever since?

    A Gamma raised in an Alpha household would be bad. I grew up in a Delta household and I always felt like a wolf raised by ducks. Why the hell can’t I fly? When am I going to get feathers? Why am I failing their expectations all the time?
    I have Alpha cousins. The feeling of alienation with them was much worse. Every time I visited their house, I felt like I was among space aliens.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 10-26-2020 at 04:29 PM.

  4. #204
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    I’ve been talking for five years to an ESI-Se who owns a lawn care company. We went on one date where she told me that I talk too much and I told her my net worth and she won’t go out with me a second time, although she calls me from time to time for Te/Ni advice or to flirt.

    In Gulenko’s DCNH system, she’s a clear D. But so am I. I think she’s looking for a guy that she can dominate.

    So yesterday she texted me with some questions and started flirting (she clearly likes ME but doesn’t like our net worth differential) and I complained that my business is in trouble (probably true) and that I paid taxes on $35k last year (which is strictly true. Thank you, tax attorney. There have been years when I paid no taxes before I figured out that that was a bad idea. But with low Ni, she might not see the missing part of that statement) and she suddenly got a lot friendlier when I appeared poorer.

    She is definitely looking for a guy she can own.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 10-26-2020 at 02:26 PM.

  5. #205
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    LIE: Money. Facts. Capitalism. Financial security. Office meetings. Efficiency. More boring corporate shit. Help, I can't relate to people, because no one gives a shit about any of the neat things I listed above.
    ESI: I may be a stone cold bitch on the outside, but I really care about you deep down in the bottom of my icy heart. As long as you continue to get $500k a year, that's all I care about. I will love you unconditionally and never let go.
    LIE: Thanks, I was getting worried there for a second that I'd be alone for the rest of my life. Now I know that someone cares about me, even if they really only care about my paycheck. Nice!

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    LIE: Money. Facts. Capitalism. Financial security. Office meetings. Efficiency. More boring corporate shit. Help, I can't relate to people, because no one gives a shit about any of the neat things I listed above.
    ESI: I may be a stone cold bitch on the outside, but I really care about you deep down in the bottom of my icy heart. As long as you continue to get $500k a year, that's all I care about. I will love you unconditionally and never let go.
    LIE: Thanks, I was getting worried there for a second that I'd be alone for the rest of my life. Now I know that someone cares about me, even if they really only care about my paycheck. Nice!

    Thanks, QT. A classic. Best ESI-LIE conversation on this thread.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Thanks, QT. A classic. Best ESI-LIE conversation on this thread.
    Anytime, though I can't take all the credit - I pulled it from the SLE domain on Wikisocion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The 44 yo never-been-married ESI whom I went on one date with two years ago and who looks like Peggy Lee and owns a lawn care company called me and asked if I know a good plumber. I gave her the name of a guy that I use and she thanked me and then said she had some other questions.

    One of them was whether or not I still saw my ex-wife, and I said that she has been with her new BF since March and I'm glad she found someone. This ESI has insisted on keeping our relationship strictly business, but she remembered the name of my son and my ex. She seems really concerned about whether or not I still see my ex, like that is a huge deal for her for some obscure reason. I repeated that No, I don't see her much anymore at all. The ESI was laughing and kind of teasing on the phone and I thought she sounded horny but I figured that she is Avoidant and I'm not going to try to kick Lucy's football again until she clearly asks for it.

    She then asked me if I knew anything about plumbing myself and I said I did. She asked me if I thought I could change a 3/4" valve from round-handle compression style to a lever-handled ball valve, and I said I could and I might even have the valve she needs in my basement, but I'd have to see the valve in question to know for sure, since they come in different styles.

    She said, "Can you be absolutely sure that you can change the valve, or not? I don't want to be without hot water for a day."

    "No, I can't be absolutely sure, not until I see the valve."

    "It's in my basement."

    "I'm busy right now, but I could be there in an hour to look at it and then I could tell you either A. I can fix it immediately, or B. I don't have the shutoff valve that will fit and you'll have to wait until Saturday when I can buy the right valve and install it."

    "You could be here in an hour?" Now she wasn't sounding so bright and perky.

    "Yes."

    "How do I know that you'll keep your word?"

    "What? It's ten minutes to collect the tools, ten minutes out the door and twenty minutes to your place. I doubt if I'll get lost."

    "But you aren't certain that you can fix it. Never mind. I'll just call a plumber tomorrow." Lol.

    "OK, fine. Let me know if you need any more help." Like when you're eighty.


    See, for example, the first line under the heading "Chapter Four. Overview."

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ng-an-ISFj-ESI
    hm...I know an EII enneagram 4 that reminds me of this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    LIE: Money. Facts. Capitalism. Financial security. Office meetings. Efficiency. More boring corporate shit. Help, I can't relate to people, because no one gives a shit about any of the neat things I listed above.
    ESI: I may be a stone cold bitch on the outside, but I really care about you deep down in the bottom of my icy heart. As long as you continue to get $500k a year, that's all I care about. I will love you unconditionally and never let go.
    LIE: Thanks, I was getting worried there for a second that I'd be alone for the rest of my life. Now I know that someone cares about me, even if they really only care about my paycheck. Nice!
    i don't relate to this. I know it's half-hyperbole and all...but ....I actually prefer to be with someone who isn't so focused on money they can't see me and to be with someone who wants to work with or psychologically support me as I work at my enterprise but who is with me for the spark (wants chemistry and love) and for the fun and the adventure, not strictly there for whatever money comes along, and....at least partners of LIE-Ni, can't be only in it for the money because we can be so risk loving and so into a development/project that we forget financial stuff. I have companies I worked with trying to pay me......

    And I see the esi carefulness and nervousness regarding Ni and Ne in LSI, too. It's not money-grubbiness and using a LIE for their money...it's more good brakes....like that story one of the socionists shared about a LIE who kept handing out household items to people who needed them (something I do, too), and the ESI spouse finally realized their house staples were going out the door and confronted the reappropriating LIE and explained their life couldn't function well at a certain point of de-stocking. The LIE listened and stopped giving away all the winter coats, etc.


    there's a practicality to ESI and LSI and a conserving quality that can keep EIE and LIE balanced. We're great at being opportunistic, and that's great and quite adaptive for SOME scenarios. We help out the less integrated and less (in that way) resourceful XSI types. But they're resourceful in helping us retain and let go of stuff when it makes sense to for Si reasons or whatever.
    Last edited by nanashi; 10-27-2020 at 06:55 AM. Reason: apparently I don't read and need to correct my writing so ppl know wtf I mean :)

  10. #210
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    I don't relate to it either. I find it depressing, if taken literally, the idea that someone could be into me for money I make and not for me.

    Those descriptions are meant to be funny, not sure why you would base your ideal relationship on them though.
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

  11. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    A Gamma raised in an Alpha household would be bad. I grew up in a Delta household and I always felt like a wolf raised by ducks. Why the hell can’t I fly? When am I going to get feathers? Why am I failing their expectations all the time?

    THIS.

    I felt like that all the freaking time with a delta parent.

    And I like that I get feedback from people on how I interact because it helps me get back to a more genuine me and to start to grow in ways that I need to versus kind of putting parts of myself in stasis in order to have an easier time in a delta ish place.

    Also glad I got the influence from an EII, though. Very useful and increased my skills/health.

  12. #212
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I don't relate to it either. I find it depressing, if taken literally, the idea that someone could be into me for money I make and not for me.

    Those descriptions are meant to be funny, not sure why you would base your ideal relationship on them though.
    @Uncle Ave, those descriptions are meant to be funny, but they contain a kernel of truth. I am repulsed by gold diggers and when a woman starts asking me for money, I'm willing to help out to a certain extent but not if she expects it. I'm actually horrified by transactional relationships if they are with people whom I really want Fi from.

    I just got off the phone with an ESI who said she'd go out with me if I bribe her.

    I said, "Now, what would you like as a bribe? I know you like money and beer and loyalty."

    "That's right. How did you know that?"

    "I have some wine in the basement, but I don't want our first meeting to be one where you are drunk. How about lunch somewhere? I know you probably like dive bars." (My ESI buddy likes dive bars.)

    (Sounds slightly disappointed and offended) "I like dive bars because I can meet very interesting people there."

    "OK, not a dive bar. How about Cafe Zola on Saturday?"

    "Mmmmm.....Cafe Zola. They have the best cheeseburgers." (Adam thinks this is going to be a cheap date.) "But not Saturday. I'm working that day."

    Adam is starting to get pissed off at her analysis paralysis.

    "Sunday"

    "No."

    "Monday"

    "No."

    "Tuesday."

    "No."

    "Stop this. I'm calling you on Tuesday and that's when we're going out."

    "No. I won't answer the phone."

    "I'm calling you. I'm marking it on the calendar."

    "Don't mark it on the calendar. I will be tired that day."

    "Then a nice lunch will be exactly what you need."

    "Don't call me. I'm going to be busy."

    "I'm calling you. Goodby." (Adam hangs up.)

    Adam gets a text from her. "Thank you."
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 10-29-2020 at 05:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Uncle Ave, those descriptions are meant to be funny, but they contain a kernel of truth. I am repulsed by gold diggers and when a woman starts asking me for money, I'm willing to help out to a certain extent but not if she expects it. I'm actually horrified by transactional relationships if they are with people whom I really want Fi from.

    I just got off the phone with an ESI who said she'd go out with me if I bribe her.

    I said, "Now, what would you like as a bribe? I know you like money and beer and loyalty."

    "That's right. How did you know that?"

    "I have some wine in the basement, but I don't want our first meeting to be one where you are drunk. How about lunch somewhere? I know you probably like dive bars." (My ESI buddy likes dive bars.)

    (Sounds slightly disappointed and offended) "I like dive bars because I can meet very interesting people there."

    "OK, not a dive bar. How about Cafe Zola on Saturday?"

    "Mmmmm.....Cafe Zola. They have the best cheeseburgers." (Adam thinks this is going to be a cheap date.) "But not Saturday. I'm working that day."

    Adam is starting to get pissed off at her analysis paralysis.

    "Sunday"

    "No."

    "Monday"

    "No."

    "Tuesday."

    "No."

    "Stop this. I'm calling you on Tuesday and that's when we're going out."

    "No. I won't answer the phone."

    "I'm calling you. I'm marking it on the calendar."

    "Don't mark it on the calendar. I will be tired that day."

    "Then a nice lunch will be exactly what you need."

    "Don't call me. I'm going to be busy."

    "I'm calling you. Goodby." (Adam hangs up.)

    Adam gets a text from her. "Thank you."
    I don't understand the verbal exchange's context.Is this person depressed and anxious or something? Are they afraid of you and just feeling coerced but are used to coercion? This sounds unhealthy, but I can't process it. What is going on ?

    Spidey sense: problem.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I don't understand the verbal exchange's context.Is this person depressed and anxious or something? Are they afraid of you and just feeling coerced but are used to coercion? This sounds unhealthy, but I can't process it. What is going on ?

    Spidey sense: problem.

    I'm trying to recall a totally healthy relationship that I've been in..........


    .........uh, yeah. I got nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'm trying to recall a totally healthy relationship that I've been in..........


    .........uh, yeah. I got nothing.
    hug


    well, that's just ,YET

  16. #216
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    ESI: “I think that women should get MORE than 50% after a divorce.”

    LIE, carefully not choking on coffee: “You do? My ex-wife thought so, too. She kind of made a point of it.”

    ESI: “It’s more expensive being a girl. Everything costs more. Haircuts, pedicures.” She shows the LIE her hand, bereft of nail polish or rings. “I can’t even afford to have my nails done now.”

    LIE is grateful that he wore shoes to this meeting so his own unpainted toenails are not glaringly obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ESI: “I think that women should get MORE than 50% after a divorce.”

    LIE, carefully not choking on coffee: “You do? My ex-wife thought so, too. She kind of made a point of it.”

    ESI: “It’s more expensive being a girl. Everything costs more. Haircuts, pedicures.” She shows the LIE her hand, bereft of nail polish or rings. “I can’t even afford to have my nails done now.”

    LIE is grateful that he wore shoes to this meeting so his own unpainted toenails are not glaringly obvious.




    also, can anyone explain what this ESI might be feeling? thinking? I genuinely don't get it. Is it insecurity on ESI's part and assuming LIE doesn't like that her hands aren't professionally painted?


  18. #218
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    My local computer store has a small rotating staff of employees. The place is run by an SLE-Ti who is never there, but the two main guys who run it on a daily basis are an older LII guy with a ponytail who is overweight and might be asexual, and a young, 22 yo SEE who is tall and thin and blonde and seems to be polysexual.
    Other guys fill in from time to time on a regular basis, and one of those guys is a male ESI named Devlin.

    When Devlin isn’t at the store, he’s ice skating, where he seems to be competitive. He’s thin and kind of goofy-looking, but he reminds me of my best ESI buddy from high school. But you can’t tell a total stranger that just because he looks like someone else, you two should be buds, right?

    When I walked into the store, Devlin and the LII were there. Normally, the LII would hit the service desk first, but he was wrapped up in talking to this crazy old lady who seemed to be ESE, so Devlin stepped up.

    “How may I help you?”

    “Hi, Devlin.”

    “Oh, Mr. Strange. I didn’t recognize you with your mask on.” Devlin was wearing a full-face clear plastic shield.

    “You just have to look for the old guy who’s losing his hair.
    Say, I came in to get a USB hub, and are you still skating?”

    “I think we have one of those, and no, I’m not. Pretty much all the skating areas are shut down. I’ve probably reverted to where I was back in ’05. The only thing I do nowadays is to show up here to keep this place running.”

    “Well, a business only needs one thing to keep it running, and that’s customers. You can be incompetent, a moron, or evil and if you have customers, your business will succeed.”

    At this point, a formerly neutral-carefully optimistic Devlin froze his expression and moved away to look for the hub, and I instantly realized that he “naturally” assumed that my description of bad business people was aimed at him.

    So quick to take personal offense, these ESI’s.

    So I followed him to the aisle where the USB hubs were located, and said, loudly, “I know, because I’m all of those things.”

    Devlin seemed to agree, because he nodded and smiled.

    By now, the more senior LII had finished with the crazy old lady and cashed me out. As I left the store, I said goodbye to him, and Devlin shouted “Goodbye, Adam” from the back room, and I was left to reflect on the ways in which Duals might not jump at each other with joy, but rather refrain from stepping on each other’s toes. And occasionally have USB hubs that the other Dual needs.

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    Found a person who fits the description, but this is probably ESFp. "Where is the product label for this?" "Oh. I forgot to put one out. I'll go do that."

    Probably ESFp, which is interesting, because we highlight each other's weaknesses, but I talk to him more than usual, and we work well enough together. Once we get working for a while, that'll be solved.

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    An ESI giving me compliment on how I dress: Wow, you're really great at matching colour!
    Me: Thank you! You're great at observing.

    Just happened yesterday. He's my friend's partner.

  21. #221
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    On a third date with an ESI. The first one, she drove to a restaurant in my town. The second one, we met at a restaurant midway between our two towns. The third time, we go to a restaurant in her town and after lunch, she invites me in to her house for coffee.

    She seems friendly and mostly relaxed, but every once in a while an expression crosses her face that seems to angrily say “You’re in my space!”
    To avoid getting thrown out, I’m careful to give her lots of physical space. No passes, no verbal suggestions of “Let’s sit next to each other on this couch and see what happens.” No double-entendres. When she gets within four feet, I step back.

    She starts telling me this story about a guy she met who wanted to get close to her too fast. They dated and after the date, he was hard to get rid of.
    I resolve to quickly finish my coffee and go. Better to walk out than to be thrown out.
    She continues, “One morning I get up and he’s sitting outside on my deck, watching the lake. I said, What are you doing here? He said he just wanted to find out where I lived. I told him he had to go home because I have to go to work.”

    Now I’m thinking that either this woman has boundary problems or the men in the dating pool are fucking dirt balls. I do know that the LSI that I was dating told me that most of the men she met wanted a woman to support them. Which seems completely alien to me, but hey, I don’t date men.
    I’ve always thought that being a woman would be difficult when trying to find a partner. Maybe that’s sexist of me, but that’s what I think.

    Anyway, I’m listening to this story and getting both angry and outraged at the guy and at the same time I’m edging towards the door so I don’t get classified as a home intruder and potential rapist.
    She goes on, “So don’t show up on my deck.” And laughs.

    “I would never do that,” I assure her.

    ”No. You seem harmless.”

    Harmless? What the fuck? HARMLESS? I was just ramping up to kill some guy and she calls me harmless?

    I’m not a guy scoping out women’s homes so I can live off them, but HARMLESS?

    It occurs to me that maybe I’m good at hiding what I’m feeling. Pushing it down, not showing it. I must have learned this early, because it seems a basic part of who I am.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-19-2021 at 06:02 AM.

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    @Adam Strange, it could be that she meant you seem harmless to her ego/boundaries

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    @Adam Strange, it could be that she meant you seem harmless to her ego/boundaries
    Well, thank you, kalinoche. My damaged pride certainly wants to grab that explanation. Lol.

    Plus, you’re probably right. I guess.

  24. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Well, thank you, kalinoche. My damaged pride certainly wants to grab that explanation. Lol.

    Plus, you’re probably right. I guess.
    I mean that's what we do, even thought it can be charming to assume that one speaks a word globally and we understand it globally. Specificity will save the world etc.

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    On the fourth (chaste) date with an ESI, we again went to a restaurant, and she invited me back to her place for coffee.

    Fortunately, I read the manual on How to get Dreiser.


    Preface.
    First, think – do you need this? It is only at first glance that Dreiser seems gentle and good-natured. Do you need to be fed (with what she sees as fit) taken care of (the way she sees it fit) and taught how to live? If not, then it's better to not initiate anything. Maybe she will leave in the end, but you'll feel yourself the last bastard for at least six months.

    Chapter one. "Hi girl, may we get acquainted?" - "You may. Begin."
    Becoming acquainted with an ESI is easy. Usually it's enough to demonstrate your interest. No, not in her. In getting to know her. In response to any interest shown in her ("hey, what are you reading? do you like it?"), and other imposing questions, an inadequate reaction could follow. In general, fewer questions. Better tell something interesting yourself.
    Any questions are best formulated in the form of ideas or proposals: "I will escort you out. Do you mind?"
    Relax. If she doesn't like something, she will let you know.

    Chapter Two. Flirting or the club?
    Two of the most common ways to direct relations into a more intimate course – flirting and pressuring – here can lead to unexpected results.
    No, Dreiser will willingly flirt ... and only flirt. No guarantee that this will lead to anything else. The same with pressuring. Rude pressure will be perceived as an assault, polite – as a game.
    This means that you will be trying to seduce Dreiser, and she, with pleasure participating in this activity, will not become seduced. The activity itself is more interesting than the outcome (if the end outcome is more interesting, Drayka will seduce you herself).
    However, the "distraction" method works well on her: "I read to the beloved selected chapters from the course of differential geometry". Dreiser will be taken in by an interesting story, and relax ... here she can be taken warm. Or you.

    Chapter Three. Financial matters.
    Dreisers very much appreciate efforts and attention that were spent on them. Only they appreciate not the absolute, but the relative quantity. They are well capable of determining how much effort you have invested.
    Meaning, if you are a millionaire, an expensive gift will leave her indifferent (another matter, if you are a poor student). But if you have managed to find an hour in your busy schedule to spend this time with her ...
    If you have good imagination and conventional courting is not in your style, the most original gift will not make an impression as much as doing something traditional (and, conversely, if you are more traditional, rely on your imagination). In short, do something that you wouldn't naturally do, for her beautiful eyes.

    Chapter Four. Overview.
    An important sign that you are considered to be "her own" is an invitation to her home. If you're persistently not being invited over (and you know that she has a place), your chances are getting progressively smaller. To seduce an ESI on a foreign territory is much more difficult.
    But don't consider an invitation to her home as an invite for something more. It's much safer to interpret what she says literally. If you are asked to "go have a cup of coffee" – what was meant is a cup and some coffee.


    So everything stated in the manual was happening exactly as described. She was saying she just wanted to be friends and she wasn't interested in a relationship. She was saying this every chance she gets. She has taken to telling me stories about guys who tried to date her and did some spectacularly foolish thing, like hitting on her or showing an interest in her, and then they had to be kicked out forever. Fail.

    As I was in her kitchen drinking some coffee out of a cup, she told me a story about one guy she was going with who asked her to stop the car so he could get out and take a leak. When he returned to the car, he asked her if she'd been spying on him while he was relieving himself.
    She stopped and waited for my reaction. She was doing a slow burn.
    I have to admit, I've had thoughts along those lines myself at times, and even suggested to one GF that she could use one of those moments to write her name in the snow. If she could write in cursive, that is.
    But I didn't think that story was what the ESI was exactly looking for.
    I thought about trying to share her moral outrage, but I just didn't feel like it, so I threw caution to the wind and said to her, "Most guys really like their junk, and they are looking for a woman who likes it as much as they do."
    I don't think this was what she was expecting, but she said that she appreciated the fact that I say exactly what I think, because that makes things easier for her. And that guy had the wrong idea about how she felt about him. And now he was gone.

    I told her I was fine with just being friends, and then, since I was on a roll of oversharing, I told her that I'd read an article on how women like her acted on dates, and it said that aggressive women don't like to be pushed into intimacy. And if I hadn't read that article, I'd probably have made a pass at her, because I've been on dates with women who rewarded me for making a pass at them. But as it is, I'm just enjoying some coffee and her company, and I'm fine with that.

    I finished my coffee and asked her if she wanted to go out again, and she stated that she was pretty busy for the next few weeks and really couldn't say right now.

    I said, "Well, text me when you have some time," and then I left.

    Two days later, she texted me and said "Are you free the Saturday after next? Anytime."


    That Dreiser manual has made a huge difference, to tell the truth. If I'd never read it, I'd have made a pass long ago and would have been left at the side of the road. Honestly, I think her behavior is actually normal for ESI's (No No No No no No no No), and my instinctive behavior is way too aggressive for LIE's. Fortunately, I can read. And if this all comes to nothing, as it may, well, at least I've has some coffee. In a cup.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-04-2021 at 09:32 AM.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    On the fourth (chaste) date with an ESI, we again went to a restaurant, and she invited me back to her place for coffee.

    Fortunately, I read the manual on How to get Dreiser.


    Preface.
    First, think – do you need this? It is only at first glance that Dreiser seems gentle and good-natured. Do you need to be fed (with what she sees as fit) taken care of (the way she sees it fit) and taught how to live? If not, then it's better to not initiate anything. Maybe she will leave in the end, but you'll feel yourself the last bastard for at least six months.

    Chapter one. "Hi girl, may we get acquainted?" - "You may. Begin."
    Becoming acquainted with an ESI is easy. Usually it's enough to demonstrate your interest. No, not in her. In getting to know her. In response to any interest shown in her ("hey, what are you reading? do you like it?"), and other imposing questions, an inadequate reaction could follow. In general, fewer questions. Better tell something interesting yourself.
    Any questions are best formulated in the form of ideas or proposals: "I will escort you out. Do you mind?"
    Relax. If she doesn't like something, she will let you know.

    Chapter Two. Flirting or the club?
    Two of the most common ways to direct relations into a more intimate course – flirting and pressuring – here can lead to unexpected results.
    No, Dreiser will willingly flirt ... and only flirt. No guarantee that this will lead to anything else. The same with pressuring. Rude pressure will be perceived as an assault, polite – as a game.
    This means that you will be trying to seduce Dreiser, and she, with pleasure participating in this activity, will not become seduced. The activity itself is more interesting than the outcome (if the end outcome is more interesting, Drayka will seduce you herself).
    However, the "distraction" method works well on her: "I read to the beloved selected chapters from the course of differential geometry". Dreiser will be taken in by an interesting story, and relax ... here she can be taken warm. Or you.

    Chapter Three. Financial matters.
    Dreisers very much appreciate efforts and attention that were spent on them. Only they appreciate not the absolute, but the relative quantity. They are well capable of determining how much effort you have invested.
    Meaning, if you are a millionaire, an expensive gift will leave her indifferent (another matter, if you are a poor student). But if you have managed to find an hour in your busy schedule to spend this time with her ...
    If you have good imagination and conventional courting is not in your style, the most original gift will not make an impression as much as doing something traditional (and, conversely, if you are more traditional, rely on your imagination). In short, do something that you wouldn't naturally do, for her beautiful eyes.

    Chapter Four. Overview.
    An important sign that you are considered to be "her own" is an invitation to her home. If you're persistently not being invited over (and you know that she has a place), your chances are getting progressively smaller. To seduce an ESI on a foreign territory is much more difficult.
    But don't consider an invitation to her home as an invite for something more. It's much safer to interpret what she says literally. If you are asked to "go have a cup of coffee" – what was meant is a cup and some coffee.


    So everything stated in the manual was happening exactly as described. She was saying she just wanted to be friends and she wasn't interested in a relationship. She was saying this every chance she gets. She has taken to telling me stories about guys who tried to date her and did some spectacularly foolish thing, like hitting on her or showing an interest in her, and then they had to be kicked out forever. Fail.

    As I was in her kitchen drinking some coffee out of a cup, she told me a story about one guy she was going with who asked her to stop the car so he could get out and take a leak. When he returned to the car, he asked her if she'd been spying on him while he was relieving himself.
    She stopped and waited for my reaction. She was doing a slow burn.
    I have to admit, I've had thoughts along those lines myself at times, and even suggested to one GF that she could use one of those moments to write her name in the snow. If she could write in cursive, that is.
    But I didn't think that story was what the ESI was exactly looking for.
    I thought about trying to share her moral outrage, but I just didn't feel like it, so I threw caution to the wind and said to her, "Most guys really like their junk, and they are looking for a woman who likes it as much as they do."
    I don't think this was what she was expecting, but she said that she appreciated the fact that I say exactly what I think, because that makes things easier for her. And that guy had the wrong idea about how she felt about him. And now he was gone.

    I told her I was fine with just being friends, and then, since I was on a roll of oversharing, I told her that I'd read an article on how women like her acted on dates, and it said that aggressive women don't like to be pushed into intimacy. And if I hadn't read that article, I'd probably have made a pass at her, because I've been on dates with women who rewarded me for making a pass at them. But as it is, I'm just enjoying some coffee and her company, and I'm fine with that.

    I finished my coffee and asked her if she wanted to go out again, and she stated that she was pretty busy for the next few weeks and really couldn't say right now.

    I said, "Well, text me when you have some time," and then I left.

    Two days later, she texted me and said "Are you free the Saturday after next? Anytime."


    That Dreiser manual has made a huge difference, to tell the truth. If I'd never read it, I'd have made a pass long ago and would have been left at the side of the road. Honestly, I think her behavior is actually normal for ESI's (No No No No no No no No), and my instinctive behavior is way too aggressive for LIE's. Fortunately, I can read. And if this all comes to nothing, as it may, well, at least I've has some coffee. In a cup.

    I truly love reading about your ESI cajoling PsyOps.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenaeva View Post
    I truly love reading about your ESI cajoling PsyOps.
    Apparently, the trick is to hang out around ESI's and be boring until they decide that they like you. At least, that's what I've got so far. We'll see if I'm way off base or not.

    This dating business is a really good training course.

  28. #228
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    The two kinds of people (LIE & ESI) when I explain my kinks.

    https://imgur.com/a/V4HKOiD
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-12-2021 at 04:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post



    also, can anyone explain what this ESI might be feeling? thinking? I genuinely don't get it. Is it insecurity on ESI's part and assuming LIE doesn't like that her hands aren't professionally painted?

    To me it reads more as moral outrage at what ESI had just spoken about unfair higher costs of grooming products & services for women. Kind of like attaching oneself to a school of thought -- a school of feminism, I take it, here -- which one has heard about before from reliable sources and is now pointing to an everyday example of it in action. That's how I read it. ESI could feel kind of proud to be linking big-picture context and everyday experience here.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaciousfreedom View Post
    To me it reads more as moral outrage at what ESI had just spoken about unfair higher costs of grooming products & services for women. Kind of like attaching oneself to a school of thought -- a school of feminism, I take it, here -- which one has heard about before from reliable sources and is now pointing to an everyday example of it in action. That's how I read it. ESI could feel kind of proud to be linking big-picture context and everyday experience here.

    My brain is fucking melting. I can't even remember the original conversation.

    I should tag these with the other person's initials, so when I'm shown that I did a poor job of relating the essence of the incident, I can clarify.

  31. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    My brain is fucking melting. I can't even remember the original conversation.

    I should tag these with the other person's initials, so when I'm shown that I did a poor job of relating the essence of the incident, I can clarify.
    dat 1D Si and I agree that I was going in a different direction than a more mating-type behavior of showing the unpainted nails to the LIE (you)... maybe that's cos I don't really relate to that behavior, done in that way. So maybe you related the essence of it just fine, I just don't have insight into what she was thinking/feeling.

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaciousfreedom View Post
    dat 1D Si and I agree that I was going in a different direction than a more mating-type behavior of showing the unpainted nails to the LIE (you)... maybe that's cos I don't really relate to that behavior, done in that way. So maybe you related the essence of it just fine, I just don't have insight into what she was thinking/feeling.
    Wow. I'm trying to reconstruct from my post who the ESI was. If she was who I think she was (an ESI-Se CP-e6 who owns a lawn care business and is kind of tough but has a good heart), then she's flirted with me in a really oblique way before. Like, she's challenging me to do something, but IDK what. Submit to her in some way, I think.*

    If the conversation was with her, I do know that she isn't happy with her income level and that she knows I'm fairly well off. Maybe she was just voicing a complaint that she has to work hard while some other people don't. She's a woman competing in a traditionally male area and she puts up a tough front, but inside, she's kind of warm and cuddly (...I suppose. I'm truly guessing here, though. Lol.)



    *This might be why I've never been able to get anywhere with her. I don't submit well.
    She kind of reminds me of Judy Hopps in Zootopia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Wow. I'm trying to reconstruct from my post who the ESI was. If she was who I think she was (an ESI-Se CP-e6 who owns a lawn care business and is kind of tough but has a good heart), then she's flirted with me in a really oblique way before. Like, she's challenging me to do something, but IDK what. Submit to her in some way, I think.*

    If the conversation was with her, I do know that she isn't happy with her income level and that she knows I'm fairly well off. Maybe she was just voicing a complaint that she has to work hard while some other people don't. She's a woman competing in a traditionally male area and she puts up a tough front, but inside, she's kind of warm and cuddly (...I suppose. I'm truly guessing here, though. Lol.)



    *This might be why I've never been able to get anywhere with her. I don't submit well.
    She kind of reminds me of Judy Hopps in Zootopia.
    This sounds like a movie where the poor person is wondering if the rich person could ever be happy living with the poor person---that they are aware they aren't as fancy and the rich person might dislike sharing a life that was more rough and poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by spaciousfreedom View Post
    To me it reads more as moral outrage at what ESI had just spoken about unfair higher costs of grooming products & services for women. Kind of like attaching oneself to a school of thought -- a school of feminism, I take it, here -- which one has heard about before from reliable sources and is now pointing to an everyday example of it in action. That's how I read it. ESI could feel kind of proud to be linking big-picture context and everyday experience here.
    I just don't get it because instead of questioning why dudes don't feel pressured to paint themselves by the industry in order to be seen as polished and attractive, she's seeing it like a duty she's obligated to perform...

    And if she had said that like the at home caregiver is doing the elder-care or the domestic stocking/cleaning/maintenance or the child-care that would be compensated but often is ignored, and that's why that person should get more in a divorce, well sure, that would make sense.

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    This sounds like a movie where the poor person is wondering if the rich person could ever be happy living with the poor person---that they are aware they aren't as fancy and the rich person might dislike sharing a life that was more rough and poor.
    A high difference in earning power between two people could very well derail most relationships, so she's not wrong to be cautious here. What she's not seeing is that I do not care how much she makes, but rather I care about her work ethic and what kind of person she is. You can't really buy that for any price. Nevertheless, she's probably thinking the same thing that my mother told me: That when you marry for money, you have to earn it. And who wants that?

    I get around this problem by having the mindset that some things are far more valuable than money. And truthfully, the ability to make a lot of money from whatever it is that you are doing, involves a certain mind-set which most people don't have and which took me a long time to discover. It's not like it's an inborn talent. It's just an attitude that anyone can learn. It's basically a willingness to ask for a lot and to have a "fuck you, show me the money" attitude about doing their work for them. Nice, caring people don't usually hit on that solution right away.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I just don't get it because instead of questioning why dudes don't feel pressured to paint themselves by the industry in order to be seen as polished and attractive, she's seeing it like a duty she's obligated to perform...
    One thing I've noticed with 2D Se/3D Ni females is that they often have this defensiveness about not being seen as being feminine enough. They don't always fall easily into the role that society promotes for women. Certainly not as easily as an IEI or an EII or an SEI. So her showing me her unpainted nails might just have been her way of saying "See? This is me. Take it or leave it."

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    And if she had said that like the at home caregiver is doing the elder-care or the domestic stocking/cleaning/maintenance or the child-care that would be compensated but often is ignored, and that's why that person should get more in a divorce, well sure, that would make sense.
    Yes, she might have been doing that. Caregivers certainly don't get paid enough. See my comment about "caring people" above.

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    Reread the snippet of the original convo... yeah, we don’t know if she was making a larger societal critique about why “it costs more to be a girl” or just accepts that that’s how it is, as her reasoning for women getting >50% after a divorce. I would hope the former, personally, but have no idea. I did read the getting manicures as something she enjoys AND thinks should be less expensive, but yeah, that idea doesn’t really make sense if within it you’re not also comparing to lack of social pressure on men to groom themselves in a similar way.
    Weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Judy Hopps in Zootopia.

    personality database has Judy as an Fe-primary and 2w1 216.

    I'm not sure if that is correct, but it sound close, to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    personality database has Judy as an Fe-primary and 2w1 216.

    I'm not sure if that is correct, but it sound close, to me
    I see that they list Judy Hopps as an ESE, because she got into police work in order to rid the world of all sources of evil, and that's definitely what ESE's do. And because she's such an aesthete in her apartment decorations, and not because her family is so important to her that she calls them every night.

    Personality database also has Nick Wilde as an ILE, because he’s a great inventor, not an LIE entrepreneur. And because he has an ILI partner, which all ILEs have.



    Maybe we all see what we want to see.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-13-2021 at 11:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    LIE: Money. Facts. Capitalism. Financial security. Office meetings. Efficiency. More boring corporate shit. Help, I can't relate to people, because no one gives a shit about any of the neat things I listed above.
    ESI: I may be a stone cold bitch on the outside, but I really care about you deep down in the bottom of my icy heart. As long as you continue to get $500k a year, that's all I care about. I will love you unconditionally and never let go.
    LIE: Thanks, I was getting worried there for a second that I'd be alone for the rest of my life. Now I know that someone cares about me, even if they really only care about my paycheck. Nice!
    This does not bring out victim aggressor romance. Let me try:
    LIE: **Counts his money on a sofa made out of mammoth's fur.**
    ESI: **Steps in.** You better give me that towel from the the ground while I strangle you with it.
    LIE: **Has the biggest smile on his face.** Yes, Ma'am!
    ESI: Think about all the wrongdoings you have committed against humanity while I strangle you.
    LIE: **Thinks: I'm the happiest man on the planet and says:** My ILI neighbor just got his new gimp suit. **tries to get oxygen**
    ESI: Excellent. You can watch us. He has spent a lot of time at the gym lately.
    LIE: **Can barely breath but still has enough oxygen to be used in groin area.**
    ESI: About that money. Do you think we can afford a torture camber?
    LIE: **Dies out of euphoria with the biggest grin on his face.**

    Luckily LIE owned a margarine factory and his wife able to use 95 % of his husband to a margarine that was given to a charity. And life continued upbeat happily ever after.
    You see folks we have a reason why LIE-ESI duality is the most rewarding while also being the shortest.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

  39. #239
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    I took an ESI (BD-her initials for my records) to The Black Pearl*, one of the nicest restaurants in town. The reservation happened to be the day before Valentines Day, which historically has been a very bad day for me in past years. Not just sequential disasters with women, but also in business dealings. The historical record has been two major, major breakups, some very bad days with women, and one house closing which has been a financial loss. The day is not my lucky day.

    This is our fourth or fifth date and she said once again that she only wants to be friends. She said that she can’t see herself ever being in a close relationship again, after her two previous husbands and some very crappy boyfriends. She said she was only on Match.com because her shrink told her she needed to get out of the house and meet new people. I seem to be getting nowhere with her, but I’m discovering a lot because she’s the first ESI I’ve ever been on “formal” dates with.
    For example, when I compare her to my two LSI girlfriends, with the ESI, I’ve managed to shake her hand. With the LSI’s, we were having hot sex at this point.

    Someone wrote that Mirage relationships (LIE-LSI) are relationships of increasing relaxation, and I completely agree with this, because I’ve been expecting this to happen with the ESI, as it did with the LSIs, and it is not happening. I feel comfortable around the ESI, but not relaxed. It’s more like I feel like I should be doing better in my life than I am.

    The ESI ordered white wine and I ordered black coffee and we both had the clam chowder and the trout. As we were eating, I was looking around. The theme was black and dark, with ghostly sails rotating over our heads and the only illumination coming from behind the wall of bottles over the bar. The effect was like being on a ghost ship in the dead of night, adrift off the coast with the lights of a city burning on the coast.

    The chowder was average, but the trout was excellent. As we ate, the ESI said
    ”My father choked to death on food.”
    I thought, “???????”
    ”He only halfway swallowed. His eyes got really big and he looked scared. I called for help but my brother ran out of the room. I guess he’d never seen a person die before.”


    So, another typical Valentines Day for me.



    *

    The Black Pearl is a fictional ship in the Pirates of the Caribbean film series. In the screenplay, the Black Pearl is easily recognized by her distinctive black hull and sails. Captained by Captain Jack Sparrow, she is said to be "nigh uncatchable". - Wikipedia
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-14-2021 at 04:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I see that they list Judy Hopps as an ESE, because she got into police work in order to rid the world of all sources of evil, and that's definitely what ESE's do.
    I don't think so. Can you explain what you mean any more?

    I think ESEs often immediately want to and try to help when they see something bad happening, but they generally don't really think of themselves as hero types or think in terms so abstract as "ridding the world of all evil", or such a thought would be faint. Like they might entertain the fantasy for a few seconds, enjoy it, and then move on. They seem to be pretty down-to-earth in that way. Judy Hopps isn't realistically characterized and I wouldn't type her, but I think that specific self-conception is more typical of IEEs.

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