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Thread: ESI/LIE Conversations

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    An ESI whom I like but consider to be a bit selfish: " Do you think I am selfish?"

    Me: "well if you are selfish and I tell you that you are, you wouldn't take my word as fact and will hate me for thinking you are and if I say no you aren't it would boost your ego.
    If you aren't selfish and I tell you that you are, not only is that unfair but also shows my inability to make judgements and would also make you dislike me as a result of which will not take me seriously. If I tell you no you are not and you really are not, since you are asking this question now, you will think I'm lying. So I don't really know how to answer that question."

    ESI: "So you think that I'm selfish!"

    Me: "How do you define selfishness?"

    ESI: "You think too much"
    Reading all of that was painful, lol. I'm just sitting here like...why go through all these hypothetical possible outcomes (which may not even be accurate) when it's so simple? Just muster up the guts to give your honest opinion and be done with it. Lol
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    I had a (lesbian) e6 Dual ESI-Se help me with redecorating my house this summer and then she went to grad school, so I figured that working with her was a great experience but just a one-off. Then she called me this week and proposed that we get together for a few hours every week because the place isn't finished. I agreed, because I can't find anyone who is even close to her in good taste, or in coming up with solutions that I like. And the place is only about half-done.

    So we met this morning and then went to get some coffee. When I started the car, the car started playing music, which it does sometimes. I can leave the radio on, or it grabs my iPhone songs and just plays them. The ESI exclaimed "The car is playing my iPhone!"

    I said, "Is it?"

    "Yes." She took her phone out of her purse and I turned off the speakers. "I was listening to this song earlier." ...... "Do you want to hear it?"

    "Yes, of course. What I heard sounded nice. Very ESI-like, actually."

    She laughed and reset her iPhone to start the song from the beginning again while I turned on the speakers, and this is what it played:



    The song is pretty, like an ESI, but I don't speak French.

  3. #363
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    Ever read anything by smilingeyes where he accurately describes Te-Fi duality as being: Te gives protection and public face, Fi gives the content and the motivation?


    I was talking to an ESI today. She said she wanted to go to a coffee shop to talk at one of the public outdoor tables, so I took her there.

    She chose a table where we could see and be seen by everyone. https://i.imgur.com/Xv3Kg2x.jpg

    She asked me "What do you want to do with the rest of your life? What would make you happy?"

    Lol. I answered honestly, "I have no idea."

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I've always loved this song. Your friend has good tastes, lol.

    This one by her is one of my favorites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    Reading all of that was painful, lol. I'm just sitting here like...why go through all these hypothetical possible outcomes (which may not even be accurate) when it's so simple? Just muster up the guts to give your honest opinion and be done with it. Lol
    Haha, true. Well, that was a long time ago, in the end I did tell them what I really thought and broke off relations. It was painful but must have been done.

  6. #366
    No Chill 🔥 Noir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Haha, true. Well, that was a long time ago, in the end I did tell them what I really thought and broke off relations. It was painful but must have been done.
    I see. That's unfortunate then, sorry that happened. Tbh though if you can't be open around someone it doesn't sound like a great match in the first place so it sounds like you are probably better off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Lol.

    @FrassatiLo, I'm gay the same way that you're a German citizen.
    So you're not gay yet but plan on becoming gay later, when you get the chance?

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    I had a work meeting this morning which included a male ESI Dual from another company. After the meeting broke up, he and I went to lunch together because we like each other and we get along. We've had lunch a couple times before. He's single and I want to help him find a female LIE, but they are so rare....

    At lunch, I told him that I'm working with an interior decorator artist who is the same type as he is (ESI). They even look alike, if you can imagine that.
    Anyway, he asked me how I met her, and I said I commissioned a work of art from her.

    "And did you let her know that you liked her?"

    "Eventually, kind of, I guess," I said. "I stood really close to her in her studio."

    "What did she do then?"

    "She turned to me and said, "Back up, bub."

    The male ESI started laughing. "That's perfect!", he said.

    I was sitting there, slightly steaming. "No, that's not perfect. It felt like a complete shutdown."

    He said, still laughing his head off, "No. That response was very measured. It left the door open."
    "Adam, you should have then said to her, "Oh, so I should let that spider that I just stepped on bite you?""

    I thought to myself, "Who the fuck thinks that fast? Only someone who spends 99% of their time thinking about relationships. A 4D Fi person. I, myself, as a 1D Fi person, was just hoping she'd kiss me. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrassatiLo View Post
    So you're not gay yet but plan on becoming gay later, when you get the chance?
    I love Germany. I admire their efficiency, even if separating trash into like 7 bins seems a bit much.
    ESI-Se
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange
    "Adam, you should have then said to her, "Oh, so I should let that spider that I just stepped on bite you?""
    I can't speak for all ESIs here obviously, but personally, I'm not necessarily a fan of these kinds of responses. It depends on the relationship (intimacy?) I have with someone. If they crossed the line, I asserted my boundaries, and that was their response, I'm just going to interpret that as though that boundary I asserted isn't being taken seriously enough. That'd make me remember it more, keep my guard up more, to assert that boundary harder.

    The fact that your friend said “That response was very measured. It left the door open.” only confirms that my assessment would've been accurate, the boundary wasn't taken seriously. I'm a direct person — I don't play subtle, covert games. If I say back up, it means back up. “Bub” sounds like lack of interest. If it's said in a playful way, I'm smiling, and I tease you sometimes…that's when it's likely just me being spicy.

    EDIT: If I wasn't serious and I can tell you interpreted it as though I was (which I would know, as I read people stupidly well), I'll make it known I was playing around by doing something like hypocritically doing the same thing you just did or something…but in a way that's sassy or bratty, not awkward.

    TL;DR — you were fine, and more Fi from you is not needed. That is what Fi seeking / Fi providing is about. (This entire situation is about where the boundaries are, AKA the distance/intimacy between people.)
    Last edited by Noir; 10-20-2021 at 04:50 PM.
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    So I fucked up my knee and some other parts of my leg yesterday when I slipped on some wet rocks and fell while running and my knee is at the point where it's not cooperating with the commands my brain is sending it. In other words, I'm not walking well despite my best efforts to walk like a person who isn't handicapped, and an ESI who came over today to do some interior design work on the house noticed it and said I needed to put it on ice and I replied, "OK, I'll do that tonight."

    "No you won't. You're lying to me.", she said, correctly.

    "Uh," I said, thinking, Damn, she's right. I hate this. I hate being health-challenged. I hate being seen as being weak.

    She said, "I'll go over to the drug store and get you something for your knee."

    I didn't want that. It doesn't hurt all that much. If she did that, I'd be admitting that I needed health care. But I probably did need health care. And she's proven to be right about things that we disagreed about before. OK, I give up. She wins. I'll accept her help.

    "You'd do that for me?"

    "Yes." And she was out the door like a shot to run to the drug store in the rain.

    Damn.

    I don't care that she's a lesbian. I'd marry her in a minute, just to keep her around.

  12. #372

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    @Adam Strange I wouldn't be surprised if she put you on chondroitin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    @Adam Strange I wouldn't be surprised if she put you on chondroitin

    I don't know what it was, @Kalinoche buenanoche. I didn't read the label. She's the 4D Si health expert. I trust her. Isn't she supposed to know this stuff?

    Hmm. Maybe I should look. She does need help with Te sometimes.

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    I was working with this lesbian ESI interior decorator this summer almost every day, then she had to return to Grad school. But we agreed that we work together well and we should keep meeting for four hours a week to keep things progressing.

    For the past three weeks, we haven't met because of schedule conflicts, but we met yesterday and got a lot done.

    She said that we might be near a stopping point until I can get the ceilings and walls put back up. After that, she can paint and fill the place with furniture. My face fell, because I won't have the walls back up for many weeks yet and that means I won't see her for a long time. I'll tell you the truth; I get normal after spending time with her. And I want that, and I don't want to give it up unless I can replace it with something equal or better.

    "However," she said brightly, "because we haven't met for a while, I suggest we meet twice a week for the next few weeks. I'm sure we can make good progress."

    Goddam. I think I might be her Heroin. For sure, she's mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    I don't care that she's a lesbian. I'd marry her in a minute, just to keep her around.
    She'd make a great roommate.

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    ESI: [A LIE's name] has a big mouth. It's good for shoving dicks in it.
    LIE: ...

    That's it, that was the entire conversation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    ESI: [A LIE's name] has a big mouth. It's good for shoving dicks in it.
    LIE: ...

    That's it, that was the entire conversation.
    @Phoenix Fire, what were the genders of the two speakers?

    I was at the apartment of my LSI (half ESI) first GF, and I said that one of our female co-workers talks all the time, and what's the best way to get her to shut up?
    The LSI replied, "Put a dick in her mouth."

    I was shocked. "How can you say that?" Remember, she was my first GF, and I was pretty naive.

    "Because it's true", she said, pulling down my zipper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Phoenix Fire, what were the genders of the two speakers?
    ESI female (me) joking with a heterosexual male LIE (my boyfriend). Lmao
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    Is my life a tragedy or a comedy? I can't decide.

    I'm sitting here typing this and feeling better and more normal than I have in years, and that's because I've just spent four hours with a great female Dual.

    A week or so ago, I went to lunch with a male ESI with whom I work, and he later told me how great that lunch was, how great it was to sit down and have a discussion over a fantastic meal, etc., etc. He was basically telling me that he liked the feeling he got when we were talking over lunch. I did, too, but he's a male and there are better forms of Duality.

    The female Dual is an ESI-Se e6 CP artist whom I'm paying to redecorate my house (and reorder my life, but revolutions start by simple acts like robbing a bank).
    She worked for me this summer and made what some people make in a year, and yesterday, when she came over, I asked her if she'd invested that yet?

    She got this look on her face that looked exactly like the way I feel when someone asks me if I've been to the dentist recently, and why haven't I? She scrunched up her face and got her phone out and said "I'm using my grandmother's financial advisor. I like him. Do you want to see a picture of him?"

    She knows that I VI everyone, and so I said "Sure", while reflecting on the fact that I can help her with her obviously difficult problem of getting her finances in order so she'll be rich when she retires. And she can help me with finding value in the things I do, because both she and I are discovering that I can see many futures, but she can help me choose which one I should have. It's her strength in Fi and Se.

    God, I'm in love with her.

    I'm in love with the way she's able to make my life better. I'm in love with the way that she makes me feel. And I'm in love with the way that I can effortlessly help her in her weak areas.

    "Here. That's him. I like him", she said, as she handed me her phone.

    I looked at the guy. He was running to fat and had hints of SEE in his face, but if I mentally stripped away the fat, his eyes were ILI. Which is pretty typical of financial advisors, and it's (my great and damned misfortune that it's) typical of an ESI to instantly like an ILI.

    As I was holding her phone, looking at the picture of her financial advisor, it rang. The caller was named Ann on the screen.

    I handed it back to her. "Phone call", I said.

    She took the phone and quickly typed something and put it away. Her latest girlfriend, from the looks of things. Probably not an LIE.

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    A couple of years ago, a Delta woman on the forum said that she had an LIE boss, and he was smart and good at finding money, but he was completely random and she felt that it was destructive to his business and it made it difficult to work with him.

    I've actually met a lot of LIEs like that. They can't remember what the hell they did at the last meeting and they haven't prepared for the present meeting and have to be reminded that they are on Planet Earth and then they launch right into a very capable-looking simulation of a CEO.

    I thought that kind of behavior was all from "those" guys, not me.

    Yesterday, the ESI-Se who is redecorating my house came over and I started by telling her that I'd found the oak flooring we'll put down but I can't find the window blinds I want, and the money for replacing the ceilings and walls is in the pipeline, and she told me that she hadn't had a chance to find the shower fixtures yet but she would do that soon.

    I said, "I wondered if you would remember to do that. I remembered that there was something that you were going to do, but I couldn't remember what it was, but I figured that you would remember."

    She stared at me for a minute, and then got a notepad out and wrote down a list of tasks which we need to do, in order, then she taped it to the wall.
    "I remember everything," she said. "You're the one who forgets. This is to remind you."
    "I have a homework assignment due in a week," she continued. "I finished it yesterday."

    I laughed. "I tend to wait until ten minutes before the meeting, then check the meeting notes and say 'Oh, forgot to do all that, guess I'll wing it.'"

    "I noticed," she said, deadpan. "That's why I made this list. To keep you on track."

    "I'm on track. I have a lot of things going on, and I'm trying to balance them and get them all done in an efficient way."

    "Tell me what things."

    So I did, and she told me which things were most important to do, in which order. She's good at that, I admit. She's less good at seeing a forward path.

    "OK", I said. "That helps me set my priorities."

    "Good. Every time I come over here, it's like a new day. Your priorities change every time I see you."

    I thought, "Uh oh. That sounds suspiciously like the behavior that I see in other, less competent LIEs."
    I said, defensively, "Circumstances change. Sometimes, there's more money available. Sometimes, there are more workers available. Sometimes, you can't get supplies. I'm juggling all of those things and I'm rearranging work assignments, including mine, to optimize the work flow."

    "That's fine. But do this list. In order. I can't choose furniture or paint until the ceilings are back up, and we can't put the floor in before then. Send this part of the list to the foreman and ask him when he can get this done."

    Damn. For a person who can't make money and can't see the future, she's pretty good at sorting out what needs to be done right now.

    *EDIT*
    In Socionics terms, I'm 4D Ne, which can lead me to see every option out there. ESI's PoLR is Ne, and they hate it. So one of ESI's roles in the Duality is to reduce the randomness that the LIE sees, and since the LIE doesn't value the randomness, he is merely good at it, he can discard it without a second thought.

    Similarly, ESIs have 4D Si, whichi is LIE's PoLR. I've read accounts of ESI-LIE Duality in which the LIE ignores his health and works like crazy until the ESI tells him to stop for the sake of his health.

    Seems to be a good match.

  21. #381

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I can't choose furniture or paint until the ceilings are back up, and we can't put the floor in before then[/I]
    how come she can't choose furniture or paint until the ceilings are back up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    how come she can't choose furniture or paint until the ceilings are back up?

    I think she has a hard time imagining things that she can't actually see, but I could be wrong. Certainly, when we were working together this summer, she'd rearrange a room, and then a few days later, she'd rearrange it again, after she had a chance to experience it and then think about it for a while.

    This is actually in the ESI handbook. "If you are LIE, be prepared to help ESI move the furniture every once in a while."


    Really, with most people, I can use what I observe about them to do a simulation and get inside their heads. My purpose in this is to better anticipate what they are going to do and to figure out what I can expect from them. With her, I can't do this. She seems to be coming from a very, very different place, and my brain doesn't bend that way.

    I probably will never really understand ESIs, and I doubt if they can really understand me. She already told me that people like me are why the world is so fucked up, so I assume she has no desire to better understand me.
    But I find that, despite not being able to truly understand each other, Duals are invariably able to provide the other person with exactly the kind of help they need.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-01-2021 at 06:22 PM.

  23. #383

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think she has a hard time imagining things that she can't actually see, but I could be wrong.
    do you use any kind of mockups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    do you use any kind of mockups?

    No, not at all. She's flying completely by the seat of her pants.

    For the record, last night, I showed her my building with the machines in it and she asked me what that thing was against one wall, and I told her it was a twelve-foot optical table that I didn't have room for when I laid the place out, and she suggested putting it down the middle of one of the big rooms, which might actually work.
    I told her that when I laid the place out, I made a scale model on a sheet of paper with little cutouts for the machines (because it's easier to move a cutout around than a 13,000 lb machine) and she lit up and said that was a great idea!

    So she's an Artist, not an Engineer. I value that part of her.

    There is software which can simulate buildings and interiors, and I have a number of CAD programs and renderers (for presentations) which could do this, but it takes a huge amount of time to build these models in CAD. I find it much easier and faster to just find someone with a good eye.

    Her taste and mine coincide really well. My only complaint is that she tries to save money when she doesn't have to on this project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    My only complaint is that she tries to save money when she doesn't have to on this project.

    lol
    have you told her that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    lol
    have you told her that?

    Yes, but I'm not sure what she thought of that. She is trying to do what she thinks is best for me, and she sees that sometimes I have a lot of cash available and sometimes I have almost none. I should ask her what she has concluded from that.

    I think she's naturally frugal, which I like, actually. I had an LSI GF whom I did not trust with my credit card, but the ESI, I do.

    I do think she's getting more comfortable with the idea that I will be able to come up with the money when it is needed, or soon thereafter.

    IDK. From my perspective, information goes into her, she remembers everything, and concrete actions come out. She doesn't seem to share her thoughts much, other than to say she's excited about something, or she doesn't like something else.

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    This interior decorator/artist ESI that I've been working with to redecorate my house in the city knows that I also have a house on five acres in the country that I almost never use, so she asked me if she could use it this weekend, probably to entertain someone, IDK. I told her, Sure, because I know she's responsible and won't burn the place down, and also because she'll clean up after herself.

    She asked me why I don't live there, since the place is paid for and pretty private. It's surrounded by a small grassy field but the property is half-wooded and is next to a little lake.

    I told her that the guy I bought it from was a single guy who died there, and I don't want to live my life the way he lived his.

    She laughed and said "Yeah, you don't want to be a lonely old man living alone."

    WTF? Aren't ESIs supposed to have a modicum of ethical sensitivity?

    Maybe not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This interior decorator/artist ESI that I've been working with to redecorate my house in the city knows that I also have a house on five acres in the country that I almost never use, so she asked me if she could use it this weekend, probably to entertain someone, IDK. I told her, Sure, because I know she's responsible and won't burn the place down, and also because she'll clean up after herself.

    She asked me why I don't live there, since the place is paid for and pretty private. It's surrounded by a small grassy field but the property is half-wooded and is next to a little lake.

    I told her that the guy I bought it from was a single guy who died there, and I don't want to live my life the way he lived his.

    She laughed and said "Yeah, you don't want to be a lonely old man living alone."

    WTF? Aren't ESIs supposed to have a modicum of ethical sensitivity?

    Maybe not.
    Fi =/= they always make you feel good

    Especially ESIs lol. Sorry.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This interior decorator/artist ESI that I've been working with to redecorate my house in the city knows that I also have a house on five acres in the country that I almost never use, so she asked me if she could use it this weekend, probably to entertain someone, IDK. I told her, Sure, because I know she's responsible and won't burn the place down, and also because she'll clean up after herself.

    She asked me why I don't live there, since the place is paid for and pretty private. It's surrounded by a small grassy field but the property is half-wooded and is next to a little lake.

    I told her that the guy I bought it from was a single guy who died there, and I don't want to live my life the way he lived his.

    She laughed and said "Yeah, you don't want to be a lonely old man living alone."

    WTF? Aren't ESIs supposed to have a modicum of ethical sensitivity?

    Maybe not.
    Maybe she just interpreted things as-is, and didn't think anything of it? I myself am not sure why this seems insensitive to you, tbh. To me it seems like repeating the same thing you just said, but in different words. Of course, I don't have all the context, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Fi =/= they always make you feel good

    Especially ESIs lol. Sorry.
    That's true sometimes, but it generally pertains more to emotional/factual realness than being uncaring. If there's not something to be real with someone about, there's no reason to just blatantly disregard someone's feelings, especially when it's someone you care about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    She laughed and said "Yeah, you don't want to be a lonely old man living alone."

    WTF? Aren't ESIs supposed to have a modicum of ethical sensitivity?

    Maybe not.
    Typology aside for a moment, is she the kind of person who will just accept raw/real truths without much strain involved? Able to face harsher realities and such in life without them bringing her down?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Maybe she just interpreted things as-is, and didn't think anything of it? I myself am not sure why this seems insensitive to you, tbh. To me it seems like repeating the same thing you just said, but in different words. Of course, I don't have all the context, though.

    It's really hard for me to step into her mind in order to see things from her perspective.

    From my perspective, I'm trying pretty hard to find a compatible ESI who isn't inappropriately younger, as she is, so I won't be a lonely old man, and unfortunately, she's the best psychological and social match I've met so far.

    From her perspective, she's got every reason in the world to keep me interested in her because she materially benefits from me. (I pay her for her work.) So she might be inclined to drop these hints every once in a while that without her, I'd be all alone. Let me add that she doesn't like my previous ESI GF, and while that woman was pretty good, she did have attachment issues which were similar to my SLI ex-wife, and I don't wish to repeat a relationship like that again. (Secure with Avoidant).

    I have a lot of experience with women who don't admit to themselves the real reasons why they do the things they do (when observation of their actions points to only one thing) and it wouldn't surprise me if she's trying to preserve her position with me while not actually being a GF. In other words, give advice, keep the guy single, but point out that he hates being single.

    However, if I take a purely logical and dispassionate approach to what she's said and what she does, I could see her actions as being genuinely helpful. I need to disregard any doubts about her motives to arrive at that conclusion, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Typology aside for a moment, is she the kind of person who will just accept raw/real truths without much strain involved? Able to face harsher realities and such in life without them bringing her down?

    I really can't judge her abilities in this area. She seems pretty tough on the outside, but she has or had a lot of anxiety which she thinks she hides but which is easy for me to see. (My presence seems to calm her down.) I've idly said things to her in the past which set her off for a day, but she just got mad, she didn't try to confront me about me being an asshole to the world.

    On the other hand, she tells me straight out what she sees in me (mostly bad) and has never complimented me (to say I'm smart or bold) but she has said that she likes doing things with me. That might be the closest she can get to giving compliments.

    In a larger sense, regarding her ability to face harsh realities, I, personally, think that she feels like an outcast who has been rejected for being who she is. I got this same sense from my last ESI GF. The ESI Artist seems to translate this subjective feeling into her opposition to racism and sexism so she can externalize it and have a reason to fight back against people who reject her.

    When I first started telling her that she was acting like standard descriptions of ESIs, she absolutely hated it. She wants to be free to be anyone she wants, while ignoring the fact that she has opposable thumbs. But gradually, as our association progressed and she realized that the ESI traits that I was calling her out on are actually things that I like and need (which is something I tell her every time we're together), she has come to look on this stuff more favorably. Or, at least, with less suspicion.

    Notice here, though, her interest was not in validating the truth of some obscure Russian cult's beliefs, but rather in finding someone who accepts her for the person that she is.

    I think that it must be difficult for an ESI, who is the moral arbiter of the socion and who speaks out when they see transgressions, to deal with the natural reaction that most people have to being called out. It must feel like unending rejection. So finding someone who actually needs what she produces must be revelatory to her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    On the other hand, she tells me straight out what she sees in me (mostly bad) and has never complimented me (to say I'm smart or bold) but she has said that she likes doing things with me. That might be the closest she can get to giving compliments.
    That's a bit of a potential red flag…is she a pessimistic person overall? Is this her pattern in life, or does it seem more specific to you guys' relationship?

    In a larger sense, regarding her ability to face harsh realities, I, personally, think that she feels like an outcast who has been rejected for being who she is. I got this same sense from my last ESI GF. The ESI Artist seems to translate this subjective feeling into her opposition to racism and sexism so she can externalize it and have a reason to fight back against people who reject her.
    I meant something more along the lines of...when there is an ugly truth in life, does she accept it, being honest with herself? If someone is that way, they tend to readily and easily admit to their own shortcomings. They're aware of their own flaws and they don't beat themselves up over them, they admit it when they're wrong and take responsibility. In a hypothetical scenario that someone was cheating on them, they'd rather know than stay unaware just to avoid the pain. These kinds of people also don't tend to agonize over these truths too much (not that they aren't at times hurt by them), and that is part of why they're able to accept them more easily than some other people in the world. (Some do agonize over it a bit more but still accept everything easily, but that's less common, and usually those kinds of people demonstrate what can almost seem like emotional masochism in other areas also.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    That's a bit of a potential red flag…is she a pessimistic person overall? Is this her pattern in life, or does it seem more specific to you guys' relationship?
    I'd say that she's a negativist, in the sense that she sees every glass as being half-empty and every person as potentially a problem. I don't think I'd call her a pessimist, though. She seems pretty excited to be going into social work, and often she's said that she's excited to start working (each day) with me. So she does look forward to things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I meant something more along the lines of...when there is an ugly truth in life, does she accept it, being honest with herself? If someone is that way, they tend to readily and easily admit to their own shortcomings. They're aware of their own flaws and they don't beat themselves up over them, they admit it when they're wrong and take responsibility. In a hypothetical scenario that someone was cheating on them, they'd rather know than stay unaware just to avoid the pain. These kinds of people also don't tend to agonize over these truths too much (not that they aren't at times hurt by them), and that is part of why they're able to accept them more easily than some other people in the world. (Some do agonize over it a bit more but still accept everything easily, but that's less common, and usually those kinds of people demonstrate what can almost seem like emotional masochism in other areas also.)
    Yes, she seems to be fine with accepting ugly truths.

    She told me that her last GF brought up the idea of being in a threesome, which she immediately hated but then cautiously accepted and then found that she couldn't stand it and saw it as cheating and left her because of that. She was amazingly hurt and pissed off at her ex-GF for a while, but they had been together for a couple years and the woman was probably either an LSI or an IEE, I couldn't tell which from a picture, so she was heading into the wind in that relationship anyway.

    I'm not sure what her thought process was in reviewing that relationship, but I think it was mostly "the other person did wrong", rather than "we just weren't meant for each other, but we'd be great with other people".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'd say that she's a negativist, in the sense that she sees every glass as being half-empty and every person as potentially a problem. I don't think I'd call her a pessimist, though. She seems pretty excited to be going into social work, and often she's said that she's excited to start working (each day) with me. So she does look forward to things.
    I see. So, probably just someone who should try to make a point to acknowledge the positives in others more, rather than a red flag. We all have things we could improve in. Does it ever actually bother you that she points out mostly negative things? I could see it having the potential to cause someone to feel “never good enough” for her or something, if she takes it too far.

    Yes, she seems to be fine with accepting ugly truths.

    She told me that her last GF brought up the idea of being in a threesome, which she immediately hated but then cautiously accepted and then found that she couldn't stand it and saw it as cheating and left her because of that. She was amazingly hurt and pissed off at her ex-GF for a while, but they had been together for a couple years and the woman was probably either an LSI or an IEE, I couldn't tell which from a picture, so she was heading into the wind in that relationship anyway.

    I'm not sure what her thought process was in reviewing that relationship, but I think it was mostly "the other person did wrong", rather than "we just weren't meant for each other, but we'd be great with other people".
    One more question I need answered before I can share what I'm thinking — why exactly did her comment seem insensitive to you? Was it something to do with it being a real possibility for you to live a life like that guy's? Was it her blunt phrasing? Something else?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I see. So, probably just someone who should try to make a point to acknowledge the positives in others more, rather than a red flag. We all have things we could improve in. Does it ever actually bother you that she points out mostly negative things? I could see it having the potential to cause someone to feel “never good enough” for her or something, if she takes it too far.
    Honestly, I never noticed her lack of praise until I started thinking about it in response to your question. I think that I get most of my positives from just seeing her be happy around me. I don't need her to tell me I'm great, because she's showing it by just showing up.
    And her criticisms are actually helpful because they are things which I didn't notice but which can be either fixed or worked around with proper action. They don't bother me at all.
    All my life, I've known that I'm impervious to most people's criticism. I thought that was due to being an LIE whose plans often step on other people's toes and if the plan is to go forward, you have to expect some criticism and not be swayed by it, and that might be a side benefit, but the basic reason might be that I'm a Dual to ESIs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    One more question I need answered before I can share what I'm thinking — why exactly did her comment seem insensitive to you? Was it something to do with it being a real possibility for you to live a life like that guy's? Was it her blunt phrasing? Something else?
    I do have a real fear of being alone for the rest of my life. It's not as great a fear as spending my life with the wrong person, but it's there.
    I thought her comment was insensitive because she should be able to see that I'm working on the problem and she doesn't need to point it out, but then, I'm discovering by working with other ESIs that their priorities are immediate and mine are more future-convoluted.

    It also made me wonder why she would say something so insensitive, and that led me to suspect that her motives might be selfish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Honestly, I never noticed her lack of praise until I started thinking about it in response to your question. I think that I get most of my positives from just seeing her be happy around me. I don't need her to tell me I'm great, because she's showing it by just showing up.
    The bolded — is that something you tend to think about those who show up around you, or are you saying that because you know how she personally expresses things?

    And her criticisms are actually helpful because they are things which I didn't notice but which can be either fixed or worked around with proper action. They don't bother me at all.
    That's good, then.

    All my life, I've known that I'm impervious to most people's criticism.
    Is that true of things like false accusations (whether they're based on lies or assumptions) also? Especially in an environment where there may be social repercussions. If so, why do you think those don't get under your skin?

    I do have a real fear of being alone for the rest of my life. It's not as great a fear as spending my life with the wrong person, but it's there.
    Is she aware of that?

    I thought her comment was insensitive because she should be able to see that I'm working on the problem and she doesn't need to point it out
    I see. I'm a bit confused, tbh. I was under the impression that you stated why you didn't want to go live there, and then she pretty much did the equivalent of replying, "Yeah, you definitely don't want that."

    It also made me wonder why she would say something so insensitive, and that led me to suspect that her motives might be selfish.
    Her motives in having involvement with you, you mean?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    The bolded — is that something you tend to think about those who show up around you, or are you saying that because you know how she personally expresses things?
    I believe that actions speak louder than words. People can promise to show up, but not everyone does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    That's good, then.

    Is that true of things like false accusations (whether they're based on lies or assumptions) also? Especially in an environment where there may be social repercussions. If so, why do you think those don't get under your skin?
    False accusations usually don't bother me at all. I just consider the source. If their opinion matters to me, then I'll try to change their mind. If it doesn't, then I ignore them.
    If I'm accused of something ludicrous, then I just let everyone see their accusation, and most people will be able to make up their own minds about what is what. If they can't, then they are morons and don't matter.

    I don't know why criticism doesn't bother me. Maybe because I've thought out why I do what I do and I'm OK with that, the good and the bad parts, so they aren't telling me anything that I haven't already thought about. Maybe because I have 1D Fi and I have trouble setting values on anything, including other people and their opinions.

    What I will say is that I try to short-circuit criticism if I think it's going to inconvenience me or if it will make my goals harder to achieve. I can be positively political then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Is she aware of that?
    Probably, but she hasn't adjusted all her opinions to my facts yet. For example, I think she assumes that the reason I like her is because I want to have sex with her (she does have an objectively great body), when in truth, I like her because of the way she makes me feel and because of her real assistance. If she wanted to have kids, then I'd want to have sex with her. Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I see. I'm a bit confused, tbh. I was under the impression that you stated why you didn't want to go live there, and then she pretty much did the equivalent of replying, "Yeah, you definitely don't want that."
    Her reply wasn't exactly the equivalent of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Her motives in having involvement with you, you mean?
    Yes. I could be reading something into her actions which isn't there, though. More data is needed.

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    ESI (Me) / LIE (Boyfriend)

    LIE: Thanks for being so understanding. You're a goddess.
    ESI: Yes, now kneel before me.
    LIE: Yes, my queen.

    This totally happened, and I didn't completely warp it into something way different than what actually took place. I swear. He is not going to break up with me when he reads this.
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