Results 1 to 32 of 32

Thread: Catholic Reformation?

  1. #1
    Professionally Typed RPG Class Warlock coeruleum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    the16types¬info
    TIM
    NFable
    Posts
    2,545
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Question Catholic Reformation?

    I expect a Catholic Reformation very soon. The Catholic Church is the closest thing to the Devil there's ever been and I think the Bible, without attributing more than historical significance to it, says as much, yet Catholic culture seems quite independent and very critical of it right now. What do you think will happen?

  2. #2
    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ministry of Love
    Posts
    6,358
    Mentioned
    92 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    dunno about the Catholic church, but I expect a religious revival in the West sometime this century. every generation wants to differentiate itself from its parents. on the other hand, the Muslim world will confront (is already confronting) a growing wave of atheism.

  3. #3
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    3,548
    Mentioned
    238 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I like Pope Francesco, he's done a lot to reform the Catholic church already and I hope things will keep progressing in this direction. Btw, agree with @xerxe, I've been thinking too that the omnipresent secularism/atheism of the West is going towards some kind of change, or that, at least, some new form of belief will take place... science has been growing and growing, it makes people believe and put their faith into it. But talking of more transcendental things, I've seen astrology gain more and more consensus... I wouldn't consider it a religion, but in some weird way it makes people more conscious of their place in the universe, which is not all that bad.

  4. #4
    ТРВЕ КВЛТ DarkAngelFireWolf69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Hell
    TIM
    N-IEI 459 sp/sx
    Posts
    1,196
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    it's interesting how the Eastern Orthodox Church has literally never been reformed (whereas the Catholic Church has), yet they don't seem to have the same widespread problem with pedo priests etc. as for Pope Francis, I'm not too certain about him, but I also don't understand the concept of papacy anymore

  5. #5
    ТРВЕ КВЛТ DarkAngelFireWolf69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Hell
    TIM
    N-IEI 459 sp/sx
    Posts
    1,196
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think some kind of reformation is due, now whether that will a more liberal or traditionalist one - time will show. A lot of Catholics seem really frustrated with the state of the Church right now (and understandably so). the Church has a very rich tradition, I understand the frustration of seeing that disappear coupled with the frustration of hierarchy at times seemingly doing nothing about children being molested

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,347
    Mentioned
    1038 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Christianity and liberal politics are in the developping opposition.
    Either there will be open fight or principle changes of one or both sides.
    There will be tries to adopt but later there will be no place for compromises.
    This may divide the church. Mb on pseudo-Christian branch which may keep much of today surface rituality, a new closer to initial ideas before Christianity appeared and other variants.

    Many ones who are religious may do not care about formal churches significantly. Even if they visit them and do some ritual part, - they have no need for that. It's more a tradition for them, not the religion itself. If a church will be changed too much - those will not be affected, but they may stop to visit it. So may appear new churches or communities sharing similar ideas and many people formally will stay on their own.

    In the past official churches mainly were used for propaganda and social control. Today this role is taken by mass medias and education. Social function of churches is minimized. Religious function of official churches is small from the start.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  7. #7
    LemurianLo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Eagleland
    TIM
    SLI-Si 6w5 spsx
    Posts
    124
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    The Catholic Church is the closest thing to the Devil there's ever been
    You seem to be confusing the Catholic Church with the Church of Sweden.

    There already was a reformation called Vatican II that was a complete disaster in making the church more liberal and protestant like in structure/culture. But the baby boomers Bishops and parishes who most strongly support this catastrophe are dying out and once the later generations, especially those of Africa which has been proving to be more true to tradition compared to populations among Europe and Latin America, start taking positions of authority I expect to see something of a counter Reformation silently occuring.

  8. #8
    Professionally Typed RPG Class Warlock coeruleum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    the16types¬info
    TIM
    NFable
    Posts
    2,545
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, the Vatican is pretty diabolical. If Sweden is somehow worse, no wonder the country basically let Satanists burn churches in the 80s.

  9. #9
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    3,548
    Mentioned
    238 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armalite View Post
    it's interesting how the Eastern Orthodox Church has literally never been reformed (whereas the Catholic Church has), yet they don't seem to have the same widespread problem with pedo priests etc. as for Pope Francis, I'm not too certain about him, but I also don't understand the concept of papacy anymore
    probably it has to do with how protestants and orthodoxes can have a sexual life, while catholics religious people can't. it's sad to consider this aspect as distinctive of their faith, I personally don't think of molesting children when thinking of catholicism, favoring instead the humanitarian bend which is stronger than in other churches, but it's definitely worth considering... especially if we think of a reformation that could help avoid those matters, like for ex, giving priests and nuns the right to get married... after all, they're made of flesh too.

  10. #10
    FreelancePoliceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Maizistan
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    689
    Mentioned
    41 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    dunno about the Catholic church, but I expect a religious revival in the West sometime this century. every generation wants to differentiate itself from its parents. on the other hand, the Muslim world will confront (is already confronting) a growing wave of atheism.
    What I’ve bolded is, at most, cultural, and a not very strong impulse. People wane or wax religious for real reasons, ultimately rooted in material conditions. Why has the population of certain countries become steadily less religious for the past 100 years? Why have those countries been “developed” countries? What’s common to “developed” countries? Investigate and you’ll find your answer. It’s nothing to do with rebellion.
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

  11. #11
    Professionally Typed RPG Class Warlock coeruleum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    the16types¬info
    TIM
    NFable
    Posts
    2,545
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    What I’ve bolded is, at most, cultural, and a not very strong impulse. People wane or wax religious for real reasons, ultimately rooted in material conditions. Why has the population of certain countries become steadily less religious for the past 100 years? Why have those countries been “developed” countries? What’s common to “developed” countries? Investigate and you’ll find your answer. It’s nothing to do with rebellion.
    Maybe people have bad material conditions because they're religious and want God to grant their wishes, like Joel Osteen's idiots. I think people are mostly religious because they're scaredy and they don't work to improve their conditions because they're afraid of going to Hell for taking "rewards" on the Earth. In turn, I think that's because they're like "me me me" and can't think about improving others' conditions which is not damning in any religion, but that doesn't directly lead to religiousness. It's easy to be like "I have sinned but God has forgiven me" but no one can earnestly be like "You have sinned but God has forgiven you" and still call themselves kind. The ideology of sin is so selfish and disgusting and skeptics usually just mirror it by replacing sin with "I am a meat robot and don't matter" when no one would ever say "You are a meat robot and don't matter" unless they're Hannibal Lecter or something. There are no sins unless you think you've sinned and you're not a meat robot unless you think you are. Certainly don't run around psychopathically saying everyone else is.

    America is basically religious because Americans are Hannibal Lecter and believe Joel Osteen has a secret invisible money genie who also created the Universe yet is your slave somehow.

  12. #12
    xerxe xerxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Ministry of Love
    Posts
    6,358
    Mentioned
    92 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    What I’ve bolded is, at most, cultural, and a not very strong impulse. People wane or wax religious for real reasons, ultimately rooted in material conditions. Why has the population of certain countries become steadily less religious for the past 100 years? Why have those countries been “developed” countries? What’s common to “developed” countries? Investigate and you’ll find your answer. It’s nothing to do with rebellion.
    I used to think so, but I've learned over time that there are people who want change for the sake of change. There are also people who crave status or notoriety for the their own sake, and they'll adopt contrarian positions as a way to achieve that. If they're charismatic, they can bring enough people over to their side. These people (or their followers) may only represent a tiny sliver, but vocal minorities are often the ones who get things moving.

    If religion is formulated as 'organized' religion, then developed countries have indeed grown steadily less religious. However, in my experience, spiritual belief, in and of itself, hasn't waned. People still believe in things like astrology or new age superstitions, and there's enough of that for a new cult (or an existing one) to coagulate around.
    Last edited by xerxe; 09-24-2019 at 08:06 PM.

  13. #13
    Professionally Typed RPG Class Warlock coeruleum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    the16types¬info
    TIM
    NFable
    Posts
    2,545
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yes, but people pick things to change out of a genuine desire. No one goes like "it would be better if we had no arms, so let's cut our arms off." At worst, things get changed out of pre-existing apathy or devaluation. People might create a new religion to be different if they don't care, but no one's going to remove arms on a mass scale to be different because nearly everyone likes having arms.

  14. #14
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    820
    Mentioned
    131 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    I expect a Catholic Reformation very soon. The Catholic Church is the closest thing to the Devil there's ever been and I think the Bible, without attributing more than historical significance to it, says as much, yet Catholic culture seems quite independent and very critical of it right now. What do you think will happen?
    Hahaha! Oh yes, you are correct... in all the wrong ways I'm afraid. I will say you're wrong about it being "evil" and the fact you think as you do basically demands me to ask you to pass a witch test in order to confirm my own theories in these matters. Your failure to do so would confirm them and reinforce my faith in the one true, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church in much the same way the first martyrs did to their contemporaries. Logic says you ought to type out words you clearly don't mean (in fact I encourage you to type out in great detail how you mean not a single word/bit of binary code you type/post as you type out your proclamation that Jesus is the Christ and God has risen him from the dead) to prove me wrong and thus likely shake my own faith in my god, my convictions, and my theories. You will not though, I'm already wagering on it. Hell, I'll flat out say you won't. Your "friends" would never let you live it down .

    There will be a "reformation" though. If by reformation you mean a rejection of Modernist heresy and with it a rejection of Vatican II than yes, the evidence is already in, the reformation is coming and God wills it most righteously. Deus Vult, I pray for the salvation of your and all our souls.
    Last edited by End; 09-25-2019 at 06:40 AM.

  15. #15
    Professionally Typed RPG Class Warlock coeruleum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    the16types¬info
    TIM
    NFable
    Posts
    2,545
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The idea of some savior called Jesus who comes in and forgives sins is utterly stupid. Somehow people can believe that once upon a time, you had no sins and were amazing like God, then you hit your brother or ate until your tummy hurt, and now you deserve to burn forever because you went sour. However, your sky daddy will ignore your falling short and let him think about how awesome he is instead of how awful you are! Your god is an idiot. If everyone worshiped him, the world would decay, because everyone would be like "welp, I can't attain perfection, so I'll just do whatever and confess then we can, teeheehee, get to Heaven, and it'll be a real nice puffy cloud!" (Doesn't that sound like anti-modernism, entropy and decay?) And in Heaven, everyone will be like "I'm saved! I'm saved! I was horrible and here's how I was saved!" Is that really what anyone wants? Death, decay, guilt, and tragedy is hell. An omnipotent and omnibenevolent god wouldn't force people to sin, because that's the ultimate injustice. However, that's also an incoherent notion, because law has the idea of a guilty conscience, while no one consciously would choose to be inferior to a god. The idea of inferiority itself is hell and that's why the word demon was the Greek word for a god. Ironically, Catholicism is full of saints and angels for you to worship statues of since you're not as good as them and never shall be, though they constantly backtrack on figures such as Joan of Arc.


    Modernism is much better.


  16. #16
    ТРВЕ КВЛТ DarkAngelFireWolf69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Hell
    TIM
    N-IEI 459 sp/sx
    Posts
    1,196
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ^that pic is literally me

  17. #17
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    14,555
    Mentioned
    798 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Re: countries with unhappier people being more religious, yeah. I turned to religion after facing death and I figure that's why old people are at church, lol. BUT dudes. If God is as universal to the human condition as suffering? Well. You know the rest.

    Also xerx brings up astrology and stuff and ive been thinking for awhile that that shit is like a replacement to fill a human need. For the record, I was into that way before, so you could claim it's just me (though I'd disagree but also be willing to embrace it)

  18. #18
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    820
    Mentioned
    131 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    The idea of some savior called Jesus who comes in and forgives sins is utterly stupid.
    Don't need the rest of the quote, theories once again (lamentably) confirmed. I will still pray for your soul, seemingly utterly lost as it is. You also seem to have a "negative" identity. Those are bad as, if we suppose you actually win and defeat the thing you identify yourself as opposing, then what? It's the same problem as an all-consuming need for vengeance. Once/if you get it, then what?

    Another thing I notice is that people hating or ridiculing a belief in God always seems to veer into the irrational every time I observe it. Again, you can throw me for a loop by passing that test I mentioned, but you won't. I'm sad about that really, I'm actually happy when I'm proven wrong about these kinds of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Re: countries with unhappier people being more religious, yeah. I turned to religion after facing death and I figure that's why old people are at church, lol. BUT dudes. If God is as universal to the human condition as suffering? Well. You know the rest.

    Also xerx brings up astrology and stuff and ive been thinking for awhile that that shit is like a replacement to fill a human need. For the record, I was into that way before, so you could claim it's just me (though I'd disagree but also be willing to embrace it)
    I'd like to ask which religion we're talking in regards to the "unhappy" countries. I have my guesses, wishing to see if I'm right. Also, "religion" isn't "replacing" a need, it's filling one. You have a "God" whether you will admit to it or not. You are "religious" about something. Everyone is, the question is what. Most worship themselves sadly, which is not good. I'd rather people worship anything ​but themselves but that ain't the way the world's working right now.

  19. #19
    Professionally Typed RPG Class Warlock coeruleum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    the16types¬info
    TIM
    NFable
    Posts
    2,545
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @End The Eastern Orthodox church is the only major denomination I think that has any claim to legitimacy. I still think Roman Catholicism itself is Hell because if Jesus brought everyone back when they least expected, yet they went to Catholic church with their immortal bodies and expected some sort of resurrection into Heaven because they didn't know about Jesus, they'd be eternally punished. That's not difficult. "The first shall be last and the last first" should ring a bell.

  20. #20
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    820
    Mentioned
    131 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    @End The Eastern Orthodox church is the only major denomination I think that has any claim to legitimacy. I still think Roman Catholicism itself is Hell because if Jesus brought everyone back when they least expected, yet they went to Catholic church with their immortal bodies and expected some sort of resurrection into Heaven because they didn't know about Jesus, they'd be eternally punished. That's not difficult. "The first shall be last and the last first" should ring a bell.
    Ah, a flash of possible reason then. You're quite close to passing the test. If you really believe that the Eastern Orthodox may well have a sense of legitimate authority than you should have no problem with proclaiming the same thing they do. That is, proclaim that Jesus is the Christ and God has risen him from the dead. Saying "I believe in Jesus Christ the risen lord" and then going into full on blasphemy as you ridicule that notion works too. The reason the test is effective is because pretty much everyone arguing against Christianity presupposes its moral framework. The "opponent" of it assumes all its basic premises and thus, ironically, accepts it as true even as they wail and gnash their teeth insisting they are anything but believers in the stupid, ignorant, and infinitely cruel sky daddy who's literally worse than Satan.

    So I'll ask again, will you confess that Jesus is the Christ? You need not mean it, just the words are enough. It'd make me very happy if you said them for it'd mean that it may be possible to save your soul despite my cynicism in these matters.

  21. #21
    Investigator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Earth
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    84
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    First let’s knock off the notion that being Christian makes people “unhappy.” I will go out to say that this claim is blatantly wrong. Happiness is the one of the biggest tools to longevity of life and the most of the top countries for life expectancy have their main belief system as Christianity.

    There are three problems I have with Catholicism in particular. One, the practice of praying to Mary (a mortal). Two, the amount of religious practices (paganism roots) maintained which might sidetrack people from getting a personal relationship with God (“I have done all my religious duties, I must be saved”). However, if you ask me if you can find God through Catholicism, I would say “absolutely.” If you are really seeking after God, you won’t let the small flaws of your denominations hold you down. So far I have stated two problems. The third is the role of the Pope. I hate how he is a political figurehead and how influential he is on the thoughts of Catholics. He has stated some very Anti-Christian things as of late due to social pressures, utterly useless.

    I know some people might bring up the amount of sexual assaults that happen in the church, but that goes back to my second problem. Robotic religious practices are not “holy.” They build an unnecessary artificial hierarchy. People focus on rising the ranks, and not on getting closer to Jesus. Just like any nonsensical hierarchy system, it gets bad people into positions of seeming authority making it easier for them to do bad things.

  22. #22
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    14,555
    Mentioned
    798 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Investigator I don't think christianity makes you unhappy, never claimed that was the case (:
    There's a misunderstanding somewhere. Maybe it's me lol

  23. #23
    Investigator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Earth
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    84
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Oh I see, you’re saying that unhappy people turn to religion. I don’t think that is true either. If anything, unhappiness is the reason people turn away from faith. They “grow weary in well doing.”

    You find more old people in church just as you would find more students attending office hours and lectures as the exam gets closer and closer. It’s not a question of “unhappiness”, but rather of an impending deadline.

    I do apologize for the initial misunderstanding @ashlesha, but you must understand how I made that mistake.

  24. #24
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    14,555
    Mentioned
    798 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    I understand. I don't think old people are always unhappy (:
    Last edited by ashlesha; 09-26-2019 at 04:30 PM.

  25. #25
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    14,555
    Mentioned
    798 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    For the record, facing death didn't turn me to religion because of a deadline (lol its still a ways off I hope!) But it did in the sense that it's like I was on the edge, with my arms on the other side, feeling what? What's there?

  26. #26
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    820
    Mentioned
    131 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    First let’s knock off the notion that being Christian makes people “unhappy.” I will go out to say that this claim is blatantly wrong. Happiness is the one of the biggest tools to longevity of life and the most of the top countries for life expectancy have their main belief system as Christianity.

    There are three problems I have with Catholicism in particular. One, the practice of praying to Mary (a mortal). Two, the amount of religious practices (paganism roots) maintained which might sidetrack people from getting a personal relationship with God (“I have done all my religious duties, I must be saved”). However, if you ask me if you can find God through Catholicism, I would say “absolutely.” If you are really seeking after God, you won’t let the small flaws of your denominations hold you down. So far I have stated two problems. The third is the role of the Pope. I hate how he is a political figurehead and how influential he is on the thoughts of Catholics. He has stated some very Anti-Christian things as of late due to social pressures, utterly useless.

    I know some people might bring up the amount of sexual assaults that happen in the church, but that goes back to my second problem. Robotic religious practices are not “holy.” They build an unnecessary artificial hierarchy. People focus on rising the ranks, and not on getting closer to Jesus. Just like any nonsensical hierarchy system, it gets bad people into positions of seeming authority making it easier for them to do bad things.
    On that first part, it only stands to reason. Reason leads to truth, truth leads to happiness, and God is the ultimate truth. Thus, the closer you are to him, the happier you'd be.

    I'm a Catholic myself but I get your objections. Sadly, I am not a trained theologian/Priest and am thus ill equipped to answer your objections in a fully authoritative way. I will try to do so in what limited ways I can though, because hey, if I get challenged somehow I gotta try and answer honorably as it is what I believe and all. First, Mary, she literally gave birth to Jesus who is both fully Divine and fully man. So she had to be something a bit more than a "mere" mortal. Denial of that fact I just mentioned about Jesus was one of the first heresies called by the name of the man who propagated it "Arius", hence it's called the Arian heresy or "Arianism" who, fun fact, was punched in the face by Saint Nicholas. Yes, that Saint Nicholas many cultures sing praises to in December because that's the least he deserved (so that nixes any insult to the faith that says Christians are/ought to be a bunch of pacifist pansies). Also, one of my favorite memes I like to drop during that time of year. "I came here to give presents to kids and punch heretics, and I just ran out of presents."

    Second, the "pagan roots" complaint. Human reason comes from the divine. As I've said, reason, properly practiced, leads to truth, and the ultimate truth is God. Thus, any good Catholic will tell you that the other religions (assuming they're not satanic in some form and even then the Devil himself does acknowledge Christ despite his desire not to in essentially all he does) will have aspects of the truth. Hell, even the Pagans did. They all had this notion of a "hidden" God, and that notion was what enabled Paul and those that came after him to convert them. He/they didn't tell them they were all a bunch of idiots who worshiped false gods/demons, but rather, that they were on the right track and that they had pieces of the puzzle, but had yet to truly attempt to assemble them and that once they did the "truth" of God/Christ would become obvious. You aren't going to win many a convert by telling them how "wrong" they are, but you just might win a few if you tell them how close they already are to the truth.

    Lastly, the pope. Plenty of evil ones in history, and the current one is a friggin' commie. We deserve this, it's a chastisement. We did, after all, let Vatican II become a thing and far too many just meekly accept his "authority" even though he's pretty clearly a heretic (as communism is but a facet of the "modernist" heresy) and that "papal infallibility" only applies if a whole laundry list of criteria is met (i.e. any "Catholic" who thinks every word out of the pope's mouth is from God is woefully ignorant in regards to their own professed faith). As the philosopher Kirkegaard lamented even in his day, it was "too easy" to be a Christian in his eyes. Thus I actually do agree with your complaint somewhat about "robotic" ritual. Praying the Rosary, for instance, means jack shit to me and the lord if you do it merely because someone told you to or you think Mary will just give you graces if you just merely utter words while holding plastic beads in the "proper" sequence.

    If you, on the other hand, pray it because you seek to glorify god and give him his just due of your time and talent in a way a proper authority says you can than it does mean something even if others say it's naught but a robotic ritual. After all, I doubt Lepanto would have been won if all those people praying it at the time saw it as but merely a way to win a battle in the physical realm against an opposing military force instead of as an exercise in spirituality and the glorification of the most high.

  27. #27
    Investigator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Earth
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    84
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    On that first part, it only stands to reason. Reason leads to truth, truth leads to happiness, and God is the ultimate truth. Thus, the closer you are to him, the happier you'd be.

    I'm a Catholic myself but I get your objections. Sadly, I am not a trained theologian/Priest and am thus ill equipped to answer your objections in a fully authoritative way. I will try to do so in what limited ways I can though, because hey, if I get challenged somehow I gotta try and answer honorably as it is what I believe and all. First, Mary, she literally gave birth to Jesus who is both fully Divine and fully man. So she had to be something a bit more than a "mere" mortal. Denial of that fact I just mentioned about Jesus was one of the first heresies called by the name of the man who propagated it "Arius", hence it's called the Arian heresy or "Arianism" who, fun fact, was punched in the face by Saint Nicholas. Yes, that Saint Nicholas many cultures sing praises to in December because that's the least he deserved (so that nixes any insult to the faith that says Christians are/ought to be a bunch of pacifist pansies). Also, one of my favorite memes I like to drop during that time of year. "I came here to give presents to kids and punch heretics, and I just ran out of presents."

    Second, the "pagan roots" complaint. Human reason comes from the divine. As I've said, reason, properly practiced, leads to truth, and the ultimate truth is God. Thus, any good Catholic will tell you that the other religions (assuming they're not satanic in some form and even then the Devil himself does acknowledge Christ despite his desire not to in essentially all he does) will have aspects of the truth. Hell, even the Pagans did. They all had this notion of a "hidden" God, and that notion was what enabled Paul and those that came after him to convert them. He/they didn't tell them they were all a bunch of idiots who worshiped false gods/demons, but rather, that they were on the right track and that they had pieces of the puzzle, but had yet to truly attempt to assemble them and that once they did the "truth" of God/Christ would become obvious. You aren't going to win many a convert by telling them how "wrong" they are, but you just might win a few if you tell them how close they already are to the truth.

    Lastly, the pope. Plenty of evil ones in history, and the current one is a friggin' commie. We deserve this, it's a chastisement. We did, after all, let Vatican II become a thing and far too many just meekly accept his "authority" even though he's pretty clearly a heretic (as communism is but a facet of the "modernist" heresy) and that "papal infallibility" only applies if a whole laundry list of criteria is met (i.e. any "Catholic" who thinks every word out of the pope's mouth is from God is woefully ignorant in regards to their own professed faith). As the philosopher Kirkegaard lamented even in his day, it was "too easy" to be a Christian in his eyes. Thus I actually do agree with your complaint somewhat about "robotic" ritual. Praying the Rosary, for instance, means jack shit to me and the lord if you do it merely because someone told you to or you think Mary will just give you graces if you just merely utter words while holding plastic beads in the "proper" sequence.

    If you, on the other hand, pray it because you seek to glorify god and give him his just due of your time and talent in a way a proper authority says you can than it does mean something even if others say it's naught but a robotic ritual. After all, I doubt Lepanto would have been won if all those people praying it at the time saw it as but merely a way to win a battle in the physical realm against an opposing military force instead of as an exercise in spirituality and the glorification of the most high.
    Sorry for the late reply, I have been a bit under the weather.

    I don’t remember there being any scripture that in the very least encourages us to pray to Mary or Saints. What there is in the bible is “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” said by Jesus in John 14:6. Notice the use of “the” indicating he is the only one. Mary nor Saints nor Angels are a part of the Holy Trinity, so I would never advise praying to them. Not to say Mary wasn’t a significant figure or a decent role model. I don’t think she is any more significant than David or Paul (she was a very good Christian). I also believe (don’t quote me) that Mary doubted Jesus’s resurrection which seems very weird if she was some being of great significance beyond that of a good Christian.

    In terms of your paganism complaint rebuttal, I agree with a lot of things. Logos is God gifted, many religions point towards a priori knowledge of God’s existence. I also agreed with the approach of Paul. Don’t call people idiots, they want to find God so they are on the right track. Completely agreed. As I stated before, you can absolutely find God through Catholicism (in fact I believe many do just like any denomination). I just want to make sure we know the difference between “letting people know their close to the truth and showing them the rest of the truth” and “letting people know their close to the truth and making them give into the evil spirit of complacency.” I wonder never say another belief system is “close enough” if they know about Jesus, but don’t believe he is God. In other words, I am not one of those people who believe non-Christian beliefs can be “correct.” The small percentage of people who don’t know about Jesus, the bible does give hints to how those cases are handled, but that is not the topic of the conversation so let’s put that on the back burner.

    We agree on the pope, no need to go any further haha. Well I agree with most things of the things you said (albeit the Mary stuff).

  28. #28
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    325 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    The papacy will in all probability continue indefinitely - not even a nuclear bomb in Jerusalem or Rome could prevail against it.

    The Anglican church....in England (and other places) was formed as a split from the Catholic Church during the Reformation, so is widely considered a Protestant church, but they officially consider themselves Reformed Catholic.

    The papacy no doubt disagrees. But the point is, the Catholic Church has had many splits over the years and it is doubtful they would ever see themselves as being "reformed", which they might think implies that they were previously in error.

    Orthodox Christianity actually sees itself as the True Church, and sees the Catholics as splitters.

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church is actually longer than the bible, so at least in terms of bureaucracy, the Catholics may be open to reform and removing all the trivial dogma and saints that never even existed.

    In the bible, Jesus actually said "call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." - so this is certainly something the Catholics could look into.

    They could also have fewer restrictions on who can become priests, given that in an epistle attributed to Peter, it says that all Christians are priests: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood".

    As well as who can be saints, given that according to the apostles, every Christian is a saint (e.g. "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's").

  29. #29
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    325 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    First, Mary, she literally gave birth to Jesus who is both fully Divine and fully man. So she had to be something a bit more than a "mere" mortal.
    I thought that Jesus got zero divine genes from Mary?

    But that leads to an interesting question - given that Joseph was reputedly not the father of Jesus, does this mean that Jesus got all of his mortal genes from Mary? If so, why wasn't he female?

    As I understand, the Day of Resurrection hasn't happened yet, so doesn't that mean that Mary is dead? I understand that the bible has a few contradictory passages on the matter, as it does with many other issues of doctrinal importance.

  30. #30
    FreelancePoliceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Maizistan
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    689
    Mentioned
    41 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I thought that Jesus got zero divine genes from Mary?
    That’s true, but Catholics also believe Mary was born without sin, and so when she gave birth to Jesus, the latter was free of original sin. If that counts for anything.

    But that leads to an interesting question - given that Joseph was reputedly not the father of Jesus, does this mean that Jesus got all of his mortal genes from Mary? If so, why wasn't he female?
    You think the same god that punishes crossdressing with death would deign to incarnate himself in a woman?

    As I understand, the Day of Resurrection hasn't happened yet, so doesn't that mean that Mary is dead? I understand that the bible has a few contradictory passages on the matter, as it does with many other issues of doctrinal importance.
    Catholics believe Mary was assumed into heaven before she died, which is extrabiblical. Papal infallability was invoked in this, meaning God-fearing Catholics can’t question it.

    Jesus in the bible said that "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - isn't that quite clear that if you want cometh unto the Father, then you shouldn't pray to Mary?
    Passages that are “difficult to understand” (i.e. inconvenient to understand) are ignored by Christians in general, but especially by Catholics. You mentioned the bit about calling no man your father; that’s another. My favorite example is “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven”. This one was so inconvenient that a legend sprung up, to wit there was some narrow mountain pass colloquially called “the eye of the needle” in Jesus’ day, through which a camel could only pass if it were disloaded of all its goods and really squeezed through. In fact there’s no evidence of such a pass existing, but churches and seminaries of all denominations teach this the world over, because it’s bad business to antagonize the wealthy!
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

  31. #31
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    325 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    That’s true, but Catholics also believe Mary was born without sin, and so when she gave birth to Jesus, the latter was free of original sin. If that counts for anything.
    Of course, theologians quote scripture endlessly at each other to suite their own purposes. The bible says that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    You think the same god that punishes crossdressing with death would deign to incarnate himself in a woman?
    gods are not above hypocrisy.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Catholics believe Mary was assumed into heaven before she died, which is extrabiblical. Papal infallability was invoked in this, meaning God-fearing Catholics can’t question it.
    I see.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Passages that are “difficult to understand” (i.e. inconvenient to understand) are ignored by Christians in general, but especially by Catholics.
    Odd, those are the sort of passages I like to focus on.

  32. #32
    Professionally Typed RPG Class Warlock coeruleum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    the16types¬info
    TIM
    NFable
    Posts
    2,545
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @FreelancePoliceman I understand the "eye of a needle" passage is actually referring to the eye of a needle. I believe the point is that a camel couldn't fit through the eye of a needle without an actual miracle, so a rich person can't have eternal life without a divine miracle either, i.e. wealth can't save you, not that wealth is evil. People back then thought wealth was God's grace basically or the grace of some other god, kind of like the bourgeoisie today, and Jesus was trying to get people not to worship wealth. People really underestimate ancient people's imagination if they can't imagine that they'd imagine God shrinking down a camel and fitting it through the eye of a needle or growing the eye of a needle and walking a camel through it. I guess an actual fairy tale in a book they want to believe contains zero fairy tales causes their brain to shut down.
    I am disappointed in humanity for not sending unsolicited nude pictures to aliens.
    We're all mad here.
     


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •