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Thread: Si - how to discover it

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Default Si - how to discover it

    If you are SEI or SLI you might be interested.

    This is a "method" of how be more aware of Si base

    Because one is sitting in the middle of the base function it can be hard to discover. There is nothing to compare with.

    Try this:
    I look at the world around me, (houses, trees, the road outside my window etc), and I just try to see it as what it is purely visually, that is only as shapes, colors, objects. Like looking at a technical drawing basically.

    And then I notice, this is not how I really see things. The Si component is missing. The "depth" and the "organic" feeling of the objects around me. That I am normally constantly in tune with, without even reflecting upon it.

    It's difficult to become aware of it, but for me it helps to do this contrasting exercise.

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    Impermanence para's Avatar
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    Si is something along the lines of 'subjective explicit qualia'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    And then I notice, this is not how I really see things. The Si component is missing. The "depth" and the "organic" feeling of the objects around me.
    Could you elaborate on this point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I look at the world around me, (houses, trees, the road outside my window etc), and I just try to see it as what it is purely visually, that is only as shapes, colors, objects. Like looking at a technical drawing basically.
    That sounds like a good description of the Se lens actually ^^'
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    This is how I discovered Si:

    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    That sounds like a good description of the Se lens actually ^^'
    Yes it is very hard for me to do that. (Although I wouldnt say its actually Se). But it provides a contrast

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    This is how I discovered Si:

    One could apply the same method and contrast the sensation of comfort/pleasure with the pure physical sensation of the water. I try doing this also. Like last night in my bed I feel the comfort sensation of my body against the sheet. And then I try to disregard this comfort and just focus on the pure physical sensation of the sheets.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakram View Post
    Could you elaborate on this point?
    Yes. I'll reply tomorrow. No time right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    One could apply the same method and contrast the sensation of comfort/pleasure with the pure physical sensation of the water. I try doing this also. Like last night in my bed I feel the comfort sensation of my body against the sheet. And then I try to disregard this comfort and just focus on the pure physical sensation of the sheets.
    The thing with the jacuzzi is that when in it, I'm able to let go of thoughts and feelings, especially when I turn the bubbles on. The feeling of comfort is not so much arrived at because of the sensation of bubbling water against your body, but of you yourself 'becoming part of the water', so to speak, there no longer seems to be much of a 'self'. I guess it works like a sort of regression to the womb. It is different from, e.g. being massaged: when you receive a massage, it feels good too, but you do not become one with the massage therapist. At least I don't ;-)
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The thing with the jacuzzi is that when in it, I'm able to let go of thoughts and feelings, especially when I turn the bubbles on. The feeling of comfort is not so much arrived at because of the sensation of bubbling water against your body, but of you yourself 'becoming part of the water', so to speak, there no longer seems to be much of a 'self'. I guess it works like a sort of regression to the womb. It is different from, e.g. being massaged: when you receive a massage, it feels good too, but you do not become one with the massage therapist. At least I don't ;-)
    This seems to me to be influnced by the unconsciousness of your suggestive Si. Its really the childish function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    This seems to me to be influnced by the unconsciousness of your suggestive Si. Its really the childish function.
    I guess it is.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakram View Post

    Originally Posted by Tallmo
    And then I notice, this is not how I really see things. The Si component is missing. The "depth" and the "organic" feeling of the objects around me.

    Could you elaborate on this point?
    Si is a contamination of the pure visual experience of the environment. Normally I don't separate these things, but by forcing myself to see the environment purely visually (things, colors, stuff), i realize that there is a contamination. Si itself is not visual, but it comes together with the visual experience. It gives a certain character to the things we see that is hard to describe.

    This is only about the visual experience, but it works the same way with comfort etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Si is a contamination of the pure visual experience of the environment. Normally I don't separate these things, but by forcing myself to see the environment purely visually (things, colors, stuff), i realize that there is a contamination. Si itself is not visual, but it comes together with the visual experience. It gives a certain character to the things we see that is hard to describe.

    This is only about the visual experience, but it works the same way with comfort etc.
    I think I know what you are trying to convey, but could the same not be said of any IE? They all contaminate objects, just using different criteria or in the way they are related back to the user.

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    My SEI GF and I visited her brother (ILE) and his GF (SLE) in Ibiza two weeks ago. So my GF cooked dinner, and the SLE woman asks my GF questions on how my GF cooks, and somewhere in that discussion my GF says she never tastes the food while cooking, to the bewilderment of the SLE, for how can one cook without tasting now and then? To which my GF replied that she knows how it tastes. It's not that my GF follows recipes to the letter, or something, she rather improvises at it, it's all in the wrist, so the speak. It's the same phenomenon Tallmo is talking about, but then applied to food and flavors, instead of e.g. colors and textures.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakram View Post
    I think I know what you are trying to convey, but could the same not be said of any IE? They all contaminate objects, just using different criteria or in the way they are related back to the user.
    That's possible. But I can only speak for Si. I don't know how much other IE bases are experienced in contrast to the visual environment.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    My SEI GF and I visited her brother (ILE) and his GF (SLE) in Ibiza two weeks ago. So my GF cooked dinner, and the SLE woman asks my GF questions on how my GF cooks, and somewhere in that discussion my GF says she never tastes the food while cooking, to the bewilderment of the SLE, for how can one cook without tasting now and then? To which my GF replied that she knows how it tastes. It's not that my GF follows recipes to the letter, or something, she rather improvises at it, it's all in the wrist, so the speak. It's the same phenomenon Tallmo is talking about, but then applied to food and flavors, instead of e.g. colors and textures.
    I don't see how it could be the same, but maybe I didn't understand. If you apply this to food, it means tasting it and separating the pure taste from the Si inner sensation of it.

    For example, when I drink whine I don't really register what it actually tastes like. Only how it sort of feels in my mouth (more Si related)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Si is a contamination of the pure visual experience of the environment. Normally I don't separate these things, but by forcing myself to see the environment purely visually (things, colors, stuff), i realize that there is a contamination. Si itself is not visual, but it comes together with the visual experience. It gives a certain character to the things we see that is hard to describe.

    This is only about the visual experience, but it works the same way with comfort etc.
    I don't know if the pure visual experience is not contaminated anyway : P of visual illusions, distortions and the like. But ofc as long as it's in parallel enough with the actual environment it's good enough and we can call it objective enough.

    Your whatever characterisation of things sounds like umm, are you like, mixing it with memories of other feelings and similar experiences? Or like focusing on just the feeling of enjoying it (or on disliking it)? I think I do the latter more.

    I guess in my identification of things when I'm familiar with something my having experienced it previously plays a heavy role for me with handling stuff more efficiently/faster/more effortlessly. But for me that's neither of the above two options (as mentioned by me). More like I just absorbed the thing and so now I'm familiar with it so it speeds up things. It's not very conscious but I guess I could isolate this layer from the pure objective perception and identification of things. At the same time there's that objective one too, though. That's unrelated to that absorption.

    And imagine that's the same for everyone...

    Though for me I'm not so aware of the former layer but I am if I try to look a little harder at how I experience stuff. Then I see how fundamental a role it plays. But until them I'm like hey isn't it natural to see the environment around you objectively I mean it'll always be impossible for me to imagine how it wouldn't be like that for some people. I get it some people are very absent-minded and pay less attention or whatever bc they tune out here and there but that's all I can imagine. I can't imagine your thingy about the certain character of objects. Other than I guess spatial arrangement that helps with navigation and knowing objects and whatever, but other than that no.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Try this:
    I look at the world around me, (houses, trees, the road outside my window etc), and I just try to see it as what it is purely visually, that is only as shapes, colors, objects. Like looking at a technical drawing basically.

    And then I notice, this is not how I really see things. The Si component is missing. The "depth" and the "organic" feeling of the objects around me. That I am normally constantly in tune with, without even reflecting upon it.
    This also kind of sounds like you removed focus from personal feelings and you just try to see things in a technical & clinical & impersonal way. Like things are no longer animate but just inanimate. (My default)


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    One could apply the same method and contrast the sensation of comfort/pleasure with the pure physical sensation of the water. I try doing this also. Like last night in my bed I feel the comfort sensation of my body against the sheet. And then I try to disregard this comfort and just focus on the pure physical sensation of the sheets.
    I think I do both easily, comfort sensation vs pure physical sensation (as far as it can be pure and objective). The former is what makes me fall asleep fast.

    But I'd dislike it if I were to approach everything like that during the day..... it'd be the antithesis of me. (And probably of most people's. : p) I mean, yeah, I sometimes want to, but then for a pretty large amount of the time I don't want to, bc I want to instead focus on the task or goal I'm doing and for that I'll want discipline and being unaffected by the environment beyond a point. Like, I prefer to just stay in control of the feelings and sensations, I'll put them in their place (where I want to put them), disable them, diminish them, etc., instead of following them.

    If I just look at things as objects or just, objectively, that helps me with that and helps for the goal plus it's just normal and natural for me. But then yeah the focus on comfort or whatever pleasure is also just normal and natural when I want that. It would be pretty bad if I just sensed food in the objective way lol. Or my position for the chair I'm sitting in. And so on, there's many little things where I do want to have more than just objectively registering things. I would imagine this is the same for everyone though some people would want to do it more than others maybe sure.


    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The thing with the jacuzzi is that when in it, I'm able to let go of thoughts and feelings, especially when I turn the bubbles on. The feeling of comfort is not so much arrived at because of the sensation of bubbling water against your body, but of you yourself 'becoming part of the water', so to speak, there no longer seems to be much of a 'self'. I guess it works like a sort of regression to the womb. It is different from, e.g. being massaged: when you receive a massage, it feels good too, but you do not become one with the massage therapist. At least I don't ;-)
    I personally don't pay attention for long to the sensation of the water - I imagine most people don't bc of the sensation becoming habituated and just simply the person getting bored with focusing on one type of sensation - and I'd be soon pretty bored sitting in there. I'd try and start to have thoughts to pass the time when I normally don't have them But I'd be better off not staying in there too long bc all that extra thinking or more like scattered thoughts coming up is just draining too mentally. I.e. if there are too many clouds on the sky (clear sky: thought-less, empty mind, cloud = thought). A few little fleeting clouds is okay, more is draining.

    That would be me disliking the Default mode network so to speak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network - this is also what deals with the "self".

    Funny for you it's the opposite, i.e. it turns off and then you are able to immerse in whatever sensation of being in that "womb". Oh and I'd be bored of that sensation too pretty soon even if I managed to feel that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    My SEI GF and I visited her brother (ILE) and his GF (SLE) in Ibiza two weeks ago. So my GF cooked dinner, and the SLE woman asks my GF questions on how my GF cooks, and somewhere in that discussion my GF says she never tastes the food while cooking, to the bewilderment of the SLE, for how can one cook without tasting now and then? To which my GF replied that she knows how it tastes. It's not that my GF follows recipes to the letter, or something, she rather improvises at it, it's all in the wrist, so the speak. It's the same phenomenon Tallmo is talking about, but then applied to food and flavors, instead of e.g. colors and textures.
    I also prefer to cook without tasting it too often, I guess if I'm really unsure I'll do that but otherwise not. And often I don't need to go outside or even really open the window to know how to dress for the weather. I sometimes do go check the outside (open the window / look at temperature/humidity reports) when I really need to but usually don't have to. And stuff like that. Doubt this is truly type related though lol. But it does seem like a skill, not everyone seems to have it.
    Last edited by Myst; 09-10-2019 at 05:17 PM.

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    For food if we know that there is a preferred amount of spice per certain portion size you can deduce there that if you add this much to it then it might objectively taste more like it. That actually sounds more like Ti/Fe.

    Also interesting to note: humans tend to sense mentally and physically in logarithmic manner meaning that we reach point of saturation sensitivity pretty fast and initial amounts contribute more to it than the next same amount of incremental adding. I wonder if this contributes to false beliefs in homeopathy.
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    How I see Si-egos is they just naturally melt into reality so easily or something. They just become so easily part of the picture. They might internally feel like outcasts because of their introversion but environmentally and physically its just like they morph into everything so well.

    Bndonics 101:

    There are four faggot functions: Ni, Ne, Fi & Fe

    And four str8 man functions: Si, Se, Ti & Te

    Si is a str8 man function, so it's inherently physical & external. Internal in the person, but has a natural externality that extends outward to everything (which also makes sense cuz its paired so well with Ne)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    How I see Si-egos is they just naturally melt into reality so easily or something. They just become so easily part of the picture. They might internally feel like outcasts because of their introversion but environmentally and physically its just like they morph into everything so well.

    Bndonics 101:

    There are four faggot functions: Ni, Ne, Fi & Fe

    And four str8 man functions: Si, Se, Ti & Te

    Si is a str8 man function, so it's inherently physical & external. Internal in the person, but has a natural externality that extends outward to everything (which also makes sense cuz its paired so well with Ne)
    I'm curious, how does this apply to women? Do they have other functions, or are they reversed, e.g. Ni, Ne, Fi & Fe for straight women, and the others for lesbians? It would fit Jung's concepts of anima and animus in a way ;-)
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    @Tallmo The input-data preferences of Si-types are the same as Se-types. They both acquire each piece of information as an entity unto itself in contrast to N-types who tend to look at information relativistically. Simplistically, N-types prefer to gaze at the forest while S-types the trees. Si-types tend to be more engaged and interactive with their environments (so I agree with them being as you say "constantly in tune") while Se-types tend to observe in a sort of detached fashion. Of all the types, SXIs certainly seem to be the most aware of the quantitative details (especially anomalies) of their environments, people in general and their own bodily functions - sometimes to the point of euphoria and other times to the point of paranoia. All Ips seem to be rather sensitive to what goes on around them....

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    I'm curious, how does this apply to women? Do they have other functions, or are they reversed, e.g. Ni, Ne, Fi & Fe for straight women, and the others for lesbians? It would fit Jung's concepts of anima and animus in a way ;-)
    I was thinking more like the faggot/str8 function thing is universal. Because regardless of a person's orientation and gender, Ni/Ne/Fi/Fe is psychological and emotional and Te/Ti/Se/Si is physical and logical. But u made an interesting point lol.

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    Looking outside of window at the scenery sounds like two rarely actively applied SEI functions Ti and Se.

    Anyway, if you have sensed something then you have probably stored those experiences internally and it becomes subjective when recollection happens. So I say it is probably subjetive layer maybe to a point where experiences start to come together. Straight shape might become bit rounded or spikes or something else based on recollection. Is this totally off?
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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    I don't really know how to answer the things that came up

    Si is basically a parallel sensory experience running alongside with the outer experience, being attached to it. I see a tree, visually, but it always comes together with the additional introverted component (Si).

    This introverted component is hard to describe, but good candidates for descriptions are words as: organic, genuine, old, patina, sensory depth, (see Jung)

    This is what Socionics is referring to when they describe Si as "aesthetics".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I don't really know how to answer the things that came up

    Si is basically a parallel sensory experience running alongside with the outer experience, being attached to it. I see a tree, visually, but it always comes together with the additional introverted component (Si).

    This introverted component is hard to describe, but good candidates for descriptions are words as: organic, genuine, old, patina, sensory depth, (see Jung)

    This is what Socionics is referring to when they describe Si as "aesthetics".
    Actually that's not what Socionics sources refer to, ever. Jung is different here.

    I knew someone who told me once that he had a parallel thing running in his head while also being aware of his environment. Like idk, images, imagery of it. Same person told me he once was driving in winter and there was snow outside, the window was not open but it was like he was smelling the snow anyway.

    (And no he didn't type as Si lol and there is no point in categorising this, to me)

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Actually that's not what Socionics sources refer to, ever. Jung is different here.
    I'm saying that's the phenomenon behind what Socionics calls "aesthetics" and Si. Socionics never explains it or doesn't know it.

    The things I have explained in this thread are normally not something one is aware of. I hope you understand that. It's not like "I have a parallel thing running in my head". It's only through carefully observing and analyzing that one can draw that conclusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I look at the world around me, (houses, trees, the road outside my window etc), and I just try to see it as what it is purely visually, that is only as shapes, colors, objects.
    Se

    > The Si component is missing.

    Si is your relation to what you see from your sensory comfort, your relation to that objective. Also all inner sensations alike pain, touches, ... - as those are your reactions on objective materia

    > It's difficult to become aware of it

    it's not. Si is the degree you like the material world from sensory point: aestetical, sensory pleasure, sensory comfort. and all inner sensations alike mentioned above

    I suppose you need to read a normal Socionics book. The only such in English is by Filatova. When after years you talk about related to you base function as "difficult to become aware of it" is either Si is not your strong function or you do not understand the basics of the theory.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I don't really know how to answer the things that came up

    Si is basically a parallel sensory experience running alongside with the outer experience, being attached to it. I see a tree, visually, but it always comes together with the additional introverted component (Si).

    This introverted component is hard to describe, but good candidates for descriptions are words as: organic, genuine, old, patina, sensory depth, (see Jung)

    This is what Socionics is referring to when they describe Si as "aesthetics".
    You're not doing a very good job of describing it, that's for sure. Si is about how your things are affecting you, i.e. for better or worse. It's a sense of whether something is of high quality or not, whether it induces comfort and pleasant sensations, or whether it is distressing, uncomfortable, disruptive to your comfort and equilibrium.

    Jung was not very good at describing Si either, he turned it into Ni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    The things I have explained in this thread are normally not something one is aware of. I hope you understand that. It's not like "I have a parallel thing running in my head". It's only through carefully observing and analyzing that one can draw that conclusion.
    Yeah. I lost it when my brain was injured and I only came to this realization when somebody else talked about it and until then i only knew "something essential is missing" or "a part of me is gone" and couldn't give it a name.

    Because of that, I was going to argue that it's universal. But I guess if I'm 4D Si it's allowed lol. (I still feel it must be universal but I'm terrified of an argument because I'm so emotionally invested.. I'll go with it. )

    You don't wanna see things without contamination, at least not as more than a thought experiment, trust me dude....

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Well ok this just occurred to me so I'll point to it being universal. At least some theorists think foot fetishes have to do with early childhood experiences with feet. We obviously don't all have foot fetishes, lol. But if you believe in that sort of psychology, then nobody JUST sees a foot, whether you sexualize them or not. There's a million unconscious associations with everything. Some cultures sexualize boobs and some don't, but everybody sees more than just fleshy sacks of fat without any surrounding info. If they have a healthy brain, anyway.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Si is about how your things are affecting you, i.e. for better or worse. It's a sense of whether something is of high quality or not, whether it induces comfort and pleasant sensations, or whether it is distressing, uncomfortable, disruptive to your comfort and equilibrium.
    Yes, how things are affecting you is Si. You are basically saying the same things as I did but with other words. But It is also experienced in the environment, you are constantly leaving out this part of Si when you talk about it. Other than that our views are fairly close. You can of course say that this is also "how things are affecting you ".

    The visual environment affects us and creates an inner sensation. But it is experienced as "outside". This is what Si-artists work with.

    Jung was not very good at describing Si either, he turned it into Ni.
    I know that you think so, you have said it many times. But he has an extremely good understanding of Si. Very introverted and analytical. Haven't you read what he says about the contrast Si vs Ni at the beginning of the Ni section of chapter X? It should be enough to see that he can tell them apart.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Si-types tend to be more engaged and interactive with their environments (so I agree with them being as you say "constantly in tune") while Se-types tend to observe in a sort of detached fashion. Of all the types, SXIs certainly seem to be the most aware of the quantitative details (especially anomalies) of their environments, people in general and their own bodily functions - sometimes to the point of euphoria and other times to the point of paranoia. All Ips seem to be rather sensitive to what goes on around them....
    Ok, yes I agree that Si types seem to be focused on the environment. That's what an observer sees and that's what they think themselves. But strictly speaking they are actually focusing on the inner component "projected" onto the environment.

    So my perspective in this thread is more introverted than usual, but it is necessary in order to understand Si. Just to make it clear.

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    I feel like Si is just the "listen to your body" function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Well ok this just occurred to me so I'll point to it being universal. At least some theorists think foot fetishes have to do with early childhood experiences with feet. We obviously don't all have foot fetishes, lol. But if you believe in that sort of psychology, then nobody JUST sees a foot, whether you sexualize them or not. There's a million unconscious associations with everything. Some cultures sexualize boobs and some don't, but everybody sees more than just fleshy sacks of fat without any surrounding info. If they have a healthy brain, anyway.
    I recall @Ananke described Se as having a lot of unconscious associations

    So I guess it depends on who you ask

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    I see it as the sewing function. Threading needles. Brain surgery. Putting nice designs on cakes and cupcakes. It is communication between body and mind. Doing repetitive work for hours down to the letter. Like brain surgery. As far as the way people move, someone on here is known for typing musicians as having strong Si. Look at the way Michael Jackson controls his body. Bruce Lee too. The grace. With some power mixed in their cases like explosive movements. It is also like muscle memory. Tai Chi is similar. Like trying to maneuver your body in a complicated, slow way. Almost like dancing. It is hard for me to see somebody do something with their body, and replicate it. My mind and my body have a very weak connection to each other. Like dial up speed. Art is fucking magic to me. To able to see a thing in the environment and translate it to your hand. How the fuck? From mind to hand. From mind to body. I was actually watching a lecture by a neurologist recently. He said the main purpose of the brain is to perform complex motor movements.

    Si polr types cant move like this:



    I think I have this condition:

    Developmental coordination disorder (DCD),[2][3][4][5][6] also known as developmental motor coordination disorder,[7] developmental dyspraxia or simply dyspraxia,[8][9][10][11] is a chronic neurological disorder beginning in childhood. It is also known to affect planning of movements and co-ordination as a result of brain messages not being accurately transmitted to the body. Impairments in skilled motor movements per a child's chronological age interfere with activities of daily living.[12

    People with developmental coordination disorder sometimes have difficulty moderating the amount of sensory information that their body is constantly sending them, so as a result dyspraxics are prone to sensory overload and panic attacks.[17]
    "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

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    Tearsofaclown's Avatar
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    I think weak si types can still be athletic to some degree. I kind of was. Even Bill Gates is. I have seen him play ping pong, he has a soft touch. And he can jump. He can't fuckin dance tho. lol


    "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    @Myst, I am pretty sure that the pure visual experience is contaminated, or at least highly limited by our expectations and our perceptual capacities. For example, photography changed how people understood visual phenomena. John Szarkowski in “The Photographer’s Eye” touches on this and says, regarding human limitations at perceiving time:

    “The galloping horse is the classic example. As lovingly drawn through all the battle scenes and sporting prints of Christendom, the horse ran with four feet extended, like a fugitive from a carousel. Not till Muybridge successfully photographed a galloping horse in 1878 was the convention broken. It was this way also with the flight of birds, the play of muscles on an athlete’s back, the drape of a pedestrian’s clothing, and the fugitive expressions of a human face.”

    And of course there’s so much out there about stuff like attentional bias (the invisible gorilla) and how people perceive all kinds of things according to wired-in cognitive preferences (universal principles of design) and detecting (or not detecting) microexpressions. I do think we can accept there is a “thing in itself” defined maybe as our initial sense impression, so long as we understand that this impression is already mediated and shaped in ways we aren’t generally conscious of.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    @Myst, I am pretty sure that the pure visual experience is contaminated, or at least highly limited by our expectations and our perceptual capacities
    Maybe I wasn't clear bc I said the same in my first sentence in this thread



    For example, photography changed how people understood visual phenomena. John Szarkowski in “The Photographer’s Eye” touches on this and says, regarding human limitations at perceiving time:

    “The galloping horse is the classic example. As lovingly drawn through all the battle scenes and sporting prints of Christendom, the horse ran with four feet extended, like a fugitive from a carousel.
    Interesting, I guess I never saw a galloping horse in real life (just standing or walking ones), in video I don't really see it as always having all four feet extended, maybe video is different (normal playback speed)



    And of course there’s so much out there about stuff like attentional bias (the invisible gorilla) and how people perceive all kinds of things according to wired-in cognitive preferences (universal principles of design) and detecting (or not detecting) microexpressions. I do think we can accept there is a “thing in itself” defined maybe as our initial sense impression, so long as we understand that this impression is already mediated and shaped in ways we aren’t generally conscious of.
    I saw the gorilla in the test but this depends on the individual btw whether they see it or not. And yeah, microexpressions is another individual difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tearsofaclown View Post
    I see it as the sewing function. Threading needles. Brain surgery. Putting nice designs on cakes and cupcakes. It is communication between body and mind. Doing repetitive work for hours down to the letter. Like brain surgery. As far as the way people move, someone on here is known for typing musicians as having strong Si. Look at the way Michael Jackson controls his body. Bruce Lee too. The grace. With some power mixed in their cases like explosive movements. It is also like muscle memory. Tai Chi is similar. Like trying to maneuver your body in a complicated, slow way. Almost like dancing. It is hard for me to see somebody do something with their body, and replicate it. My mind and my body have a very weak connection to each other. Like dial up speed. Art is fucking magic to me. To able to see a thing in the environment and translate it to your hand. How the fuck? From mind to hand. From mind to body. I was actually watching a lecture by a neurologist recently. He said the main purpose of the brain is to perform complex motor movements.

    Si polr types cant move like this:

    I think I have this condition:

    Developmental coordination disorder (DCD),[2][3][4][5][6] also known as developmental motor coordination disorder,[7] developmental dyspraxia or simply dyspraxia,[8][9][10][11] is a chronic neurological disorder beginning in childhood. It is also known to affect planning of movements and co-ordination as a result of brain messages not being accurately transmitted to the body. Impairments in skilled motor movements per a child's chronological age interfere with activities of daily living.[12

    People with developmental coordination disorder sometimes have difficulty moderating the amount of sensory information that their body is constantly sending them, so as a result dyspraxics are prone to sensory overload and panic attacks.[17]
    Hahahhaa funny you ask like this "How the fuck". I drew stuff very well even in kindergarten. At age 10 I tried to draw a human face in all its detail, worked out well on first try. And so on. I still have the drawings somewhere so I know I was actually good and not just imagining it as a kid. You know it's called right brained drawing by some who teach it supposedly. Idk if that's art, well very realistic art lol. Almost hyperrealism

    Brain surgery would be a lot more interesting to me than sewing bc it would require intellectual abilities too IMO. Besides the refined motor control. But I think I don't really like to pay ANY conscious attention to doing refined motor control. I only like to pay conscious attention to doing rough movements. More a tank than a ballet dancer here heh. But I'm fine with tasks requiring with refined motor control if I must do them for some reason. However with such tasks I'm way better off with paying my attention directly to being methodical with those tasks (step by step) rather than the refined motor control itself. So again, brain surgery over ballet dancing ...would be more interesting

    And when I have to do things like handle very fragile things I automatically handle them very carefully and gracefully (the tank somehow has that *unconscious* ability in the back of the brain). Otoh if I have to deal with lots of complex little elements like taking apart a phone and messing with its pcb or similar, I need to go back to conscious methodical bc I get to become very risk avoidant (at first sight when everything is unfamiliar, I don't want to break all the unidentified things). So I need to know what the elements are like, how they behave, how they are placed etc, preferably also what they are for but that's just intellectual curiosity on top sometimes. And if I know all that I can do it methodically and not fuck up with the fine motor control either. I think brain surgery would be the same but I'd like that intellectual challenge lol

    Drawing is different I guess bc I just liked doing it as a kid. So I didn't feel the need to make the task methodical. I just focused on the things in front of me to draw. I tried recently to draw in some test again, boy was I out of practice... but I started getting used to it again soon enough. Just felt pretty awkward initially lol. Except when it came to tasks about drawing spatial arrangements. Instantly good, not awkward

    Then where I really am 100% methodical and step by step is when copying complex series of moves for some new complex movement, for sport, for an object etc. Well half methodical... it's like, I watch the whole thing, the series of movements. Then I can't copy it yet, I have to break it down step by step for the first couple steps, like really static steps, but then when I got those 1-2 first steps the rest just automatically sorts itself usually, don't ask how that works, it's not very conscious. The copying of the first couple steps *is* fully conscious. Whatever you wanna make of that. I always thought it's an idiosyncrasy of mine. Not good at copying movement until I see those first steps broken down and as soon as I see them I'm instantly good at copying the entire movement, not just those broken down first steps.

    That neurologist sounds weird tho'.

    Oh also. I don't know what your movements are like that you called "Si PoLR", but... are they rough, energetic, or just simply clumsy tripping over everything, or easily breaking things when handling them, or what?
    Last edited by Myst; 09-12-2019 at 06:21 PM.

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Maybe I wasn't clear bc I said the same in my first sentence in this thread
    Yes, I was agreeing with you and offering supporting discussion.

    Interesting, I guess I never saw a galloping horse in real life (just standing or walking ones), in video I don't really see it as always having all four feet extended, maybe video is different (normal playback speed)
    People used to be very familiar with horses and visually they imagined that the gallop had legs extended, but photos showed that to be incorrect. In response, people’s visual imaginations and perceptions seem to have changed to fit what the technology showed. As another writer on photography history, William Ivins, put it:

    “At first the public had talked a great deal about what it called photographic distortion.” But “it was not long before men began to think photographically, and thus to see for themselves things what it had previously taken the photograph to reveal to their astonished and protesting eyes.” So the exposure to those images arguably changed how people see.

    I’m just saying in general that I find the idea of pure reality highly problematic. I hold trying to square up with reality as much as possible as a core personal value, but I also recognize it is not fully possible. This is my response for this thread in general, not at you since I think you understand this very well.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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