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Thread: Logically rationalize God

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Modern physics disproves this pretty well, even if your classical first-order logic would rather remake the world in its image and take us back to a time before calculus.
    I wonder what your background is because I have no clue about what you are referring to in this statement. Maybe you are referencing quantum logic. Last time I checked, quantum logic has not made a major breakthrough as there isn't a modal logic equivalent in quantum mechanics (the last time I checked). However, this isn't the main problem I have with your reply. I didn't make reference to first-order logic. Second-order logic was used: quantification over relations.

    I do not understand what point you were trying to make. Who's "remaking the world with first-order logic." Your reply is very strange indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    Yet your believe that your observations of the present are much more indicative of an indeterminable past.
    No, I just recognise that the whole of existence having a cause is ultimately unfalsifiable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    Saying that you have not observed an instance of a conjecture does NOT imply that its results do not exist.
    Seeing no reason to make a conclusion about something which appears to be indeterminable does NOT imply that I think the universe had no cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    So I challenge you to actual disprove the conjecture that the universe is fundamentally causal. If this can't be done, there would be no reason to disbelieve this property.
    If it is not falsifiable, there is no reason to disbelieve OR believe.

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    @Subteigh you seem to be a "I fucking love science" type along with @coeruleum. Pray tell me how you'd resolve the "replication crisis" currently plaguing that field? I am quite curious. And, if I may, the instant you think the universe has a "cause" of any kind? Congrats, you believe the universe is causal! For to say that A necessarily flows from/leads directly to B means you believe that causality exists and that existence must be in some way causal. Hence why I inquired as to what the somewhat effeminate armored one was/is smoking. Good shit is good shit, even if you found out about it from someone who hates your guts .

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    @Subteigh you seem to be a "I fucking love science" type along with @coeruleum. Pray tell me how you'd resolve the "replication crisis" currently plaguing that field? I am quite curious. And, if I may, the instant you think the universe has a "cause" of any kind? Congrats, you believe the universe is causal! For to say that A necessarily flows from/leads directly to B means you believe that causality exists and that existence must be in some way causal. Hence why I inquired as to what the somewhat effeminate armored one was/is smoking. Good shit is good shit, even if you found out about it from someone who hates your guts .
    It isn't a matter of loving science - I don't see any superior way of improving knowledge than the scientific method. (I suppose it is hard to argue against those who point out that as nothing about the physical world can be known for certain therefore "science" (as though it was some animate force) cannot be said to be more valid than other fields, other than to simply say that we get increasingly brilliant results.

    I think that there is certainly an issue with research determined uninteresting not being published and with research from inadequate sample sizes being too frequently cited in the popular media. Ultimately, we should only believe something proportionate to the strength of the evidence that is available.

    As I understand, if something is eternal, it does not have a cause. Causality may appear to exist within the universe, but we cannot infer anything outside the universe, including whether the universe had a cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    No, I just recognise that the whole of existence having a cause is ultimately unfalsifiable.



    Seeing no reason to make a conclusion about something which appears to be indeterminable does NOT imply that I think the universe had no cause.



    If it is not falsifiable, there is no reason to disbelieve OR believe.
    Ahhh, but saying there is no reason would be a gross exaggeration. Science itself presupposes the principle of sufficient reason(PSP).

    What's crazy to me personally is that you would sit here and argue against it. PSP being false would mean that our cognitive abilities would be unreliable and I couldn't trust your reason for it being false in the first place which is a lose-lose argument.

    That's besides the point. The biggest arguments against PSP have been reductio ad absurdum. There are arguments from a chance-based reality perspective (because I know you guys love pointing to quantum mechanics). However, nothing in Quantum Mechanics points to a flaw in the weak principle of causality. Whether quantum mechanics accepts causality entirely also depends on the interpretation. So pointing to Quantum Mechanics would not be a strong argument against the universe being without cause.

    Edit: Btw, I apologize for calling principle of sufficient reason "PSP" instead of PSR. I always renamed it "principle of sufficient purpose" in my head (haha).
    Last edited by Investigator; 01-04-2020 at 09:21 AM. Reason: Clarification

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    I don't believe the Universe has a cause. You seem to be confusing cause with reason (teleology) anyways. The Universe means everything in existence. I don't believe everything in existence is linked in a single causal chain, which is what the Universe having a cause would imply. Everything could have a purpose or not have a purpose without a cause, but I don't believe everything happens for a reason either. I don't even think it's logically sound to say existence as such has either a cause or a purpose. If you liked philosophers besides Thomas Aquinas including ones the Catholic Church supposedly likes such as Plato and Boethius you've had heard of the idea of God as being and evil as nothing. Supposedly Boethius is a Blessed even though many people have called him a pagan for his rather Jesus-less prison book. Thomas Aquinas comes within two inches of contradicting Christianity's own scriptures anyways since Elijah and Enoch were taken to Heaven (which, while not the final destination of souls, seems to preclude damnation) without dying first and the people who denied Jesus's miracles after having witnessed them seem to have been conclusively damned before they died.

    You don't smoke books on modern logic, topology, and cosmology if you intend to read them, and I also don't think about you enough to be able to hate your guts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    Ahhh, but saying there is no reason would be a gross exaggeration. Science itself presupposes the principle of sufficient reason(PSP).
    No it doesn't. There is no such rule.

    The law of conservation of energy says that in an isolated system, energy remains constant. The laws of thermodynamics state that in an isolated system, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus, the universe can only have a cause if is not an isolated system. But if that is true, then the universe does not represent the whole - which in my understanding of what is meant by universe is contrary to its definition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    That's besides the point. The biggest arguments against PSP have been reductio ad absurdum. There are arguments from a chance-based reality perspective (because I know you guys love pointing to quantum mechanics). However, nothing in Quantum Mechanics points to a flaw in the weak principle of causality. Whether quantum mechanics accepts causality entirely also depends on the interpretation. So pointing to Quantum Mechanics would not be a strong argument against the universe being without cause.
    It is impossible to determine whether "everything happens by chance" or according to some universal laws without knowing if we are in an isolated system. But I do not see how we could exist in an endless chain of open systems, or at least, it has been useful so far to act as though everything is deterministic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    No it doesn't. There is no such rule.

    The law of conservation of energy says that in an isolated system, energy remains constant. The laws of thermodynamics state that in an isolated system, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus, the universe can only have a cause if is not an isolated system. But if that is true, then the universe does not represent the whole - which in my understanding of what is meant by universe is contrary to its definition.
    The Universe can have a cause within the Universe if you invoke microcosm/macrocosm type principles but the cause itself would be subject to causality since it'd be inside the Universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    The Universe can have a cause within the Universe if you invoke microcosm/macrocosm type principles but the cause itself would be subject to causality since it'd be inside the Universe.
    For all I know, time may not be linear or may not even exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    It isn't a matter of loving science - I don't see any superior way of improving knowledge than the scientific method.
    Than I ask you to actually apply it, to stand by your own convictions in it. To acknowledge it openly as "your god" and to follow through on that assertion in having full faith and confidence in it. If you can, I will be both genuinely surprised and more than a bit happy for having done that you will, in time, come to see that faith in Jesus the Christ is indeed correct. Human reason leads to truth, God is truth, thus reason, uncorrupted by diabolic forces, will lead to faith in God. Sad to say, however, that we call him "the lord of this world" for a tragically good reason .

    Case in point? The crisis I mentioned above. "Science" is a replacement faith for many. No wonder they bow to those "credentialed" asshats as if they were priests whom they think they are immune to things like dumptrucks full of money without a true spiritual foundation. Glyphosate is totally safe, safe enough to drink right out of the bottle say the experts! Scientists find adding Mercury to the vaccines to be beneficial to everyone's health! Epstein totally killed himself says the 22nd 11yr old coroner picked by the newly formed house committee fully comprised of former CIA assets!

    I wish, wish, I was kidding here, truly I do. But I am not. Find yourself a real God dude, you'll be much happier once ya do. I recommend Jesus, but if you need a stint in some other faith I understand. Stop trying to please the lord of this world at the very least. He can only offer you misery and despair in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Than I ask you to actually apply it, to stand by your own convictions in it. To acknowledge it openly as "your god" and to follow through on that assertion in having full faith and confidence in it. If you can, I will be both genuinely surprised and more than a bit happy for having done that you will, in time, come to see that faith in Jesus the Christ is indeed correct. Human reason leads to truth, God is truth, thus reason, uncorrupted by diabolic forces, will lead to faith in God. Sad to say, however, that we call him "the lord of this world" for a tragically good reason .

    Case in point? The crisis I mentioned above. "Science" is a replacement faith for many. No wonder they bow to those "credentialed" asshats as if they were priests whom they think they are immune to things like dumptrucks full of money without a true spiritual foundation. Glyphosate is totally safe, safe enough to drink right out of the bottle say the experts! Scientists find adding Mercury to the vaccines to be beneficial to everyone's health! Epstein totally killed himself says the 22nd 11yr old coroner picked by the newly formed house committee full comprised of former CIA assets!

    I wish, wish, I was kidding here, truly I do. But I am not. Find yourself a real God dude, you'll be much happier once ya do. I recommend Jesus, but if you need a stint in some other faith I understand. Stop trying to please the lord of this world at the very least. He can only offer you misery and despair in the end.
    It isn't strictly a matter of "loving" science and things associated with science such as nuclear bombs and so on (which I may well do). It is a matter of following what I believe to be true. I don't "have" to love it, unlike Christians having to love "God". It is a big mistake to mix up truth with aesthetic choices. Faith is also contrary to the spirit of establishing the truth. Faith stops reason, it stops questions. ("I once asked the Lord why so many people are confused and He said to me, 'Tell them to stop trying to figure everything out, and they will stop being confused.' I have found it to be absolutely true. Reasoning and confusion go together." ~ Joyce Meyer).

    I rejected the god of the bible when I was about 7 for aesthetic reasons, as I objected to the use of genocide and torture. The lack of evidence for this god was of lesser importance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    It's ironic that you're using a living and very public atheist as your persona pushing very traditionally religious theism.
    God loves irony, it is his select form of humor. Case in point? The greatest evils tend to give rise to the greatest goods. Only in the deepest shadow can even an objectively dim light shine blindingly. In all his earnest defiance and real power in this world Satan only serves to prove the lordship of Christ even against his infernal will .

    I mean, to go fully Christian here, we literally killed our God with our own bare hands. Nailed the man to a pair of sticks than pierced his side with a rusty spear for good measure. By all logic, we ought not exist given that. Yet, we not only exist, but were actually saved because of it. Talk about irony...

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    End, it's very telling you're fine with Subteigh believing in other irrational superstitions, yet you think science is Satanism. It's almost like you only like religion for controlling people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    God loves irony, it is his select form of humor. Case in point? The greatest evils tend to give rise to the greatest goods. Only in the deepest shadow can even an objectively dim light shine blindingly. In all his earnest defiance and real power in this world Satan only serves to prove the lordship of Christ even against his infernal will .
    This is the link between neocons and (non-critical) postmodernist thought here. Also, a deep shadow can only exist where there's a bright light, and if you had scientific literacy you'd know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    End, it's very telling you're fine with Subteigh believing in other irrational superstitions, yet you think science is Satanism. It's almost like you only like religion for controlling people.
    Socionics is not a cult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    This is the link between neocons and (non-critical) postmodernist thought here. Also, a deep shadow can only exist where there's a bright light, and if you had scientific literacy you'd know that.
    How does the human eye perceive light? There is a mathematical model that'd explain that "fact" of yours in my own favor. Don't hit up google or some other search engine or a friend. Just answer me why the human eye needs far less light to "see" than you'd otherwise think it does.

    A "bright" light is in fact pretty damned relative if you know the facts off the top of your head. Again, seriously, stop trying to be a good little modernist Christ-hater. You'll be much, much, ​happier once you do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    How does the human eye perceive light? There is a mathematical model that'd explain that "fact" of yours in my own favor. Don't hit up google or some other search engine or a friend. Just answer me why the human eye needs far less light to "see" than you'd otherwise think it does.

    A "bright" light is in fact pretty damned relative if you know the facts off the top of your head. Again, seriously, stop trying to be a good little modernist Christ-hater. You'll be much, much, ​happier once you do that.
    Photons have objective amounts of energy and the shadow cast by an object is directly proportional to how much light shines on it. You're welcome.

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    Anybody who says Science doesn't assume PSP has already lost all credibility in my eyes. You are a product of all the cons associated with the indefinite subscription to skepticism.

    PSP <=> principle of causality => a cause for the universe and since the universe exist => God exist. I recommend the reading up on one of my favorite mathematicians, Leibniz. He will give the technical reasons for why this is true (because I can't be bother to do the formal proof).

    Besides that, I pray that God grants you guys the wisdom and understanding necessary to find him (I truly do) because currently I suspect that you lack these things as your technical arguments are significantly misinformed to say the least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Photons have objective amounts of energy and the shadow cast by an object is directly proportional to how much light shines on it. You're welcome.
    That they do, but you failed to mention a little thing called logarithms, lumens, and how they relate to each other. Not as direct as you think my dude. Still, I thank you for even bothering to engage me on an honest intellectual level. I feared/suspected you'd just call me a heretic/nazi and be done with it. I thank you for once again proving I am too pessimistic for my own good it would seem. Perhaps you will even one day come to accept that Jesus is the Christ. A part of me doubts, but the other part hopes .

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    End, it's very telling you're fine with Subteigh believing in other irrational superstitions, yet you think science is Satanism. It's almost like you only like religion for controlling people.
    Yeah he probably looks up to pastors etc because of their ability to control people, and probably had his life limited too because of it. So the only option for him is to ride the train out to the end and to try to be even more fanatic and soliciting, to not feel so bad about his life being controlled. Similar IMO for Prostate @Investigator .

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    1. The Universe doesn't have a cause as long as at least one non-causal event or object exists, and due to ambiguity existing in language plus observer effects in quantum mechanics plus different temporal frames of reference in general relativity this is strongly implied.
    2. Using the principle of sufficient reason to argue for the Universe being caused is literally begging the question as in the logical fallacy, since the principle of sufficient reason is an axiom that states all things must have a cause and if all things have a cause and time exists (also assumed in traditional God arguments,) the Universe has a cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Yeah he probably looks up to pastors etc because of their ability to control people, and probably had his life limited too because of it. So the only option for him is to ride the train out to the end and to try to be even more fanatic and soliciting, to not feel so bad about his life being controlled. Similar IMO for Prostate @Investigator .
    Hey, The End by The Doors is a good song and investigating prostates is fun!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Yeah he probably looks up to pastors etc because of their ability to control people, and probably had his life limited too because of it. So the only option for him is to ride the train out to the end and to try to be even more fanatic and soliciting, to not feel so bad about his life being controlled. Similar IMO for Prostate @Investigator .
    haha, you may act ignorant, but at least your funny. That's a good talent to have, society pays well for it in the name of entertainment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Hey, The End by The Doors is a good song and investigating prostates is fun!
    There’s no end to the prostates involved in this conversation now hehe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    haha, you may act ignorant, but at least your funny. That's a good talent to have, society pays well for it in the name of entertainment.
    I like that you say “act ignorant”. You should do something about your life besides wasting time being annoying on the internet. Christ didn’t save you for you to make an ass out of yourself like this.

    Makes me think The End is Near lol, almost the same looking avatars too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I like that you say “act ignorant”. You should do something about your life besides wasting time being annoying on the internet. Christ didn’t save you for you to make an ass out of yourself like this.

    Makes me think The End is Near lol, almost the same looking avatars too.
    You're a riot. I didn't think I could get a laugh out of this thread. Still ignorant, but still funny.

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    Jesus Saves men's virginity involuntarily and their body odor voluntarily.

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    If we're going to cosplay the Enlightenment badly, I should at least get some proper Enlightenment clothes instead of a lousy T-shirt.

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    Or fit in by buying a Death Note t-shirt and waifu pillow

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Or fit in by buying a Death Note t-shirt and waifu pillow
    I'll take polyester Werther suits, thank you very much, though I guess I could put my polyester Werther suit over my Death Note T-shirt.

    (I don't have a polyester Werther suit or a Death Note T-shirt.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    It isn't strictly a matter of "loving" science and things associated with science such as nuclear bombs and so on (which I may well do). It is a matter of following what I believe to be true. I don't "have" to love it, unlike Christians having to love "God". It is a big mistake to mix up truth with aesthetic choices. Faith is also contrary to the spirit of establishing the truth. Faith stops reason, it stops questions. ("I once asked the Lord why so many people are confused and He said to me, 'Tell them to stop trying to figure everything out, and they will stop being confused.' I have found it to be absolutely true. Reasoning and confusion go together." ~ Joyce Meyer).
    I recommend the works of Soren Kirkegaard to you. Read some of his stuff, way better than that Joyce character you seem to admire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I recommend the works of Soren Kirkegaard to you. Read some of his stuff, way better than that Joyce character you seem to admire.
    Wow, someone is being intentionally dense, thinking a skeptic finds reasoning confusing and talks to God in his head!

    Never mind that @Subteigh has read nearly everything already.

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    I guess I'm a different kind of atheist. I don't understand the arguments in this thread because proving god's existence means nothing to me. I don't really care if he exists or not, I still wouldn't follow him. It's like having a bad father. You are not a slave to your father just because he created you. I do remember being religious though. God to me was more or less a representation of own values/philosophy. Which is a bigger deal to me than whatever everyone else was preaching. Once I reached to that conclusion I left the religion. Why would you even submit to anyone, let alone a being that supposedly gave you the option to defy him? I would make that choice every single time.

    It's funny because looking back I remember when I first told my family I'm an atheist we were going through a rough patch, most of them said that is the only reason I have felt discouraged and left the religion. But the reality is I've actually planned to leave eventually. I just didn't know how, when and where. That is more or less how I plan my long term goals. I'm very opportunistic by nature, I don't force things unless I have to, I'm happy to sit back and wait for a long time but once I'm provided with an opportunity I don't shy away from taking it no matter how drastic it seems to others. It always looks like I make rash decisions when I eventually make them because I don't hesitate (I would have thought about it a million times already), especially if I don't tell anyone about my plans beforehand, which I very rarely do. I feel guilty because the situation wasn't pleasant for anyone and it was very stressful, but again, I would make that choice every single time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Or fit in by buying a Death Note t-shirt and waifu pillow
    I'm conflicted because that is my favourite character. Maybe I should retype as ILI, seems like a lot of ILIs like him.

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    Death Note is an OK anime. If I feel like paying for Netflix I might finish it since it looked short last time I checked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    I'm conflicted because that is my favourite character. Maybe I should retype as ILI, seems like a lot of ILIs like him.
    I just searched and no body pillow of him exists for you, sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    I guess I'm a different kind of atheist. I don't understand the arguments in this thread because proving god's existence means nothing to me. I don't really care if he exists or not, I still wouldn't follow him. It's like having a bad father. You are not a slave to your father just because he created you. I do remember being religious though. God to me was more or less a representation of own values/philosophy. Which is a bigger deal to me than whatever everyone else was preaching. Once I reached to that conclusion I left the religion. Why would you even submit to anyone, let alone a being that supposedly gave you the option to defy him? I would make that choice every single time.

    It's funny because looking back I remember when I first told my family I'm an atheist we were going through a rough patch, most of them said that is the only reason I have felt discouraged and left the religion. But the reality is I've actually planned to leave eventually. I just didn't know how, when and where. That is more or less how I plan my long term goals. I'm very opportunistic by nature, I don't force things unless I have to, I'm happy to sit back and wait for a long time but once I'm provided with an opportunity I don't shy away from taking it no matter how drastic it seems to others. It always looks like I make rash decisions when I eventually make them because I don't hesitate (I would have thought about it a million times already), especially if I don't tell anyone about my plans beforehand, which I very rarely do. I feel guilty because the situation wasn't pleasant for anyone and it was very stressful, but again, I would make that choice every single time.
    I'm a pantheist and not an atheist, but when I quit religion I quit because it seemed liked stunted development to me too. Some people who identify as Christian and other mainstream and non-mainstream religions think you basically grow up to be a god though fyi.

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    Would all the text in this thread fit into an Emerson essay on Unitarianism and his idea of Jesus's enlightenment, which would get Catholic shorts in a knot to even read and disagree with? It'd probably be less than a couple of pages of a real book like that and people are still spending so much time here.

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    I'm here to shove real philosophy and religion books down everyone's thoreauts.

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