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    Natural selection and random mutation is just not enough to make new information.

    Abiogenesis is a pipe dream.

    Irreducible complexity is insurmountable. A flagella just evolved? Not likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Natural selection and random mutation is just not enough to make new information.

    Abiogenesis is a pipe dream.

    Irreducible complexity is insurmountable. A flagella just evolved? Not likely.
    It is known that the appearance of order out of chaos can happen very readily. "Information" is a human notion for patterns they consider meaningfully ordered.

    Flagella are not irreducibly complex: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_1.html

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    OP never really defined the term "god" so I'm not sure how an undefined term can be rationalized

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Natural selection and random mutation is just not enough to make new information.

    Abiogenesis is a pipe dream.

    Irreducible complexity is insurmountable. A flagella just evolved? Not likely.
    Well energy from the Sun hits particles and reduces their entropy. Likely organic matter and inorganic matter form at the same time as a light wave, which consists of photons and antiphotons, hits particles which are too basic to be defined as organic or inorganic. Basic organic matter evolves readily, especially as negentropy is common in the Universe. Perhaps God does this but no Zeus-looking guy running around is necessary to explain science yet again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Well energy from the Sun hits particles and reduces their entropy. Likely organic matter and inorganic matter form at the same time as a light wave, which consists of photons and antiphotons, hits particles which are too basic to be defined as organic or inorganic. Basic organic matter evolves readily, especially as negentropy is common in the Universe. Perhaps God does this but no Zeus-looking guy running around is necessary to explain science yet again.
    Absolutely not what I was talking about at all.

    Just fuck it man, I don't care enough about you or this to really get into it with you. I used to be atheist once as well, you guys truly know you have the single answer and everyone else is deluding themselves.

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    That entire sequence of events for the development of the flagella relies on inherent direction of order. Apparently there is zero direction in evolution. Directionless, purposeless. Yet several simultaneous mutations are required at the same time and these had to be carried on through generations as they immediately needed to have some kind of benefit.

    Frankly its all bullshit. The entire atheist, purposeless, happenstance is entirely bullshit. If it was so easy to theorize about why haven't researchers actually just done it? Just make it already. Its because its far to complex.

    The flagella is just the tip of the iceberg. The folding shape of proteins is another insurmountable obstacle. DNA doesn't bind as amino acid nucleotides without enzymes. Explain the world before enzymes to make DNA? It’s incredibly complex operation for technicians to even do by forcing these molecules to comply with advanced laboratory techniques, you really believe this totally perfect scenario was playing out on early, UV scorched Earth?? As if all you need are the parts and a car will just assemble itself if given enough time. It wouldn’t happen in a hypothetical world, so how could a place with zilch in the way of molecules with some perfect ability to copy with fecundity aka. DNA without a cell wall...just happened to propagate, how the hell did it even get to that place in the first place? DNA doesn't just go together by itself, it needs other kinds of chemistry for that to happen. Hard to do by teams of people in a lab with the best technology, but it was happening in treacherous nature without any mindful intervention just cause? Hur-dur.

    Information in terms of evolution is about creating new forms more complex forms from less complex forms. If it was so easy why haven't they produced a new species of fruit flies after all these years? Time scales are all off as well. Whales in 10 million years is impossible using the very same principles. Make even a simple bacteria that works, but don't cheat and just mash already available forms together. Do it the way is supposedly happened.....it can't be done, even with a simple tiny archaea cell, that has maybe 250 genes. Do it without any single preassembled part. Just pure physical chemistry. ....... There is a growing wave of people moving away from Neo-Darwinism.


    I actually think quantum mechanics will hold clues for evolutionary biology. The intention of the atom and its affinity to entangle holds clues there.


    Like you have to really think about how complex even just cell division is..there are hundreds of thousands, if not a million little chemical operations going on, each distinct and each would have had to evolve separately, by chance, with no direction, no meaning, and no memory..like think about the very first instruction: divide, which is of itself a collection of thousands of individual chemical steps that would have had to evolve just happenstance, for no reason, and against the very principles of pro-ported just to pull it off would need hundreds of codes of information do this in the right order and this order just happened to come about even though the likelihood of hundreds of perfectly ordered instructions is statistically less probable than there are molecules in the entire Universe. It would have to dictate instructions in a order of magnitude that exceeds even common sense and it would look like hundreds of these types of process>>>, then this, then this, stop, then this, then this, stop.


    Abiogenesis is proto, even before that point of the code was able to even do something, how did the DNA (RNA early earth wtv) even get to the point where it could have actually done something useful with its code, like you can't think in terms of step by step evolution here of structure, like this is proto-structure. I'm talking random random DNA string of code with no order and therefore no ability to produce meaningful structure. Like why in the fluke chance in hell would it just happen to actually have enough of a pattern to actually instruct something to manifest from seemingly no-thing. Like really what was the sequence way down at that root level long before there even was a DNA code to begin with?? I'm talking dividing the RNA, DNA string into an equal version of itself, you have to understand that even that basic operation that occurs inside a cell is more complex in steps than any mechanical machine mankind has ever built. Abiogenesis just says to us, it was fortuitous, you see? Its like ya fucking right, give me a fucking break.


    Chimpazees in a cage don’t just type out Shakespeare if given the chance. …. Its this kind of blind faith in magical chance that has lead to the creation of The Rise of Skywalker and the magical Mary Sue that can do anything, because the plot needs it.


    Structure of the DNA molecule gives proteins their shape. Structure is function. To tell a molecule to make a shape and then to add new information just by tiny changes in the DNA molecule is just not a good enough principle to demonstrate that evolution was possible in a world BEFORE DNA molecules even had a shape and coded sequence to begin with. Like DNA doesn't just hang out in open pools, or in the depths of the ocean just chilling without protection from the elements.


    Actually the more you look into it the more ludicrous the atheist world view actually becomes. Its like you guys are separated from spirit or something, when really you are just inside the paradigm that needed to happen to escape the clutches of the Christian Church as it had a strangle hold on Civilization's framework perception of reality, along with the burgeoning fields of technological flowering that was occurring at the time. Its okay to submit to a higher power, even if you have been taught form childhood there is none.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Absolutely not what I was talking about at all.

    Just fuck it man, I don't care enough about you or this to really get into it with you. I used to be atheist once as well, you guys truly know you have the single answer and everyone else is deluding themselves.
    I'm not an atheist (my actual beliefs are complicated,) but no organized religion says "thou mustest believe Creation happened in a way contradictory to science, and then thou shalt be saved." It's always events around a human being or avatar during human history (Jesus, Buddha, etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I actually think quantum mechanics will hold clues for evolutionary biology. The intention of the atom and its affinity to entangle holds clues there.


    Congratulations, you denied my very specific quantum origin of abiogenesis, and then put forth a vague quantum origin of abiogenesis! But unless we find Jew Zeus at the scene, it can't be a valid theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Kierkegaard is terrible. No one should fear a just being. No one should believe something contrary to what reason tells them to be true - is that even really possible?
    I've pointed this out before but I'll do it again here. There is a story by Jack Vance that really illuminated this point for me. If you don't want to read his stuff and find the story I'm referencing in doing so but I"ll spell it out in order for you to "get it" as it were. Two people who are quite desperate for damn good reason get two options, either prostrate themselves before some asshole wizard or a literal God of Justice. They choose to gamble on the later. The being giving them that choice notes how rare/stupid it is that those given the choice gamble on the later choice given how, well, likely that "God" is going to fuck them over so very very hard.

    I doubt you'll get why that story stuck with me as hard as it did but I do welcome you opinion on this matter if/when you get around to reading it. It's a good one, and I'd hope we all share our top stories with each other.

    After all, this ain't a "pay to win" site like Amazon has sadly become...

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    @End, I thought I’d read every story that Jack Vance ever wrote, but I don’t recognize the one that you are describing. What is the name of the story?

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I've pointed this out before but I'll do it again here. There is a story by Jack Vance that really illuminated this point for me. If you don't want to read his stuff and find the story I'm referencing in doing so but I"ll spell it out in order for you to "get it" as it were. Two people who are quite desperate for damn good reason get two options, either prostrate themselves before some asshole wizard or a literal God of Justice. They choose to gamble on the later. The being giving them that choice notes how rare/stupid it is that those given the choice gamble on the later choice given how, well, likely that "God" is going to fuck them over so very very hard.

    I doubt you'll get why that story stuck with me as hard as it did but I do welcome you opinion on this matter if/when you get around to reading it. It's a good one, and I'd hope we all share our top stories with each other.

    After all, this ain't a "pay to win" site like Amazon has sadly become...
    No one can tell if someone is a "God of Justice" if they are capable of any action - that is no choice at at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    That entire sequence of events for the development of the flagella relies on inherent direction of order. Apparently there is zero direction in evolution. Directionless, purposeless. Yet several simultaneous mutations are required at the same time and these had to be carried on through generations as they immediately needed to have some kind of benefit.

    Frankly its all bullshit. The entire atheist, purposeless, happenstance is entirely bullshit. If it was so easy to theorize about why haven't researchers actually just done it? Just make it already. Its because its far to complex.

    The flagella is just the tip of the iceberg. The folding shape of proteins is another insurmountable obstacle. DNA doesn't bind as amino acid nucleotides without enzymes. Explain the world before enzymes to make DNA? It’s incredibly complex operation for technicians to even do by forcing these molecules to comply with advanced laboratory techniques, you really believe this totally perfect scenario was playing out on early, UV scorched Earth?? As if all you need are the parts and a car will just assemble itself if given enough time. It wouldn’t happen in a hypothetical world, so how could a place with zilch in the way of molecules with some perfect ability to copy with fecundity aka. DNA without a cell wall...just happened to propagate, how the hell did it even get to that place in the first place? DNA doesn't just go together by itself, it needs other kinds of chemistry for that to happen. Hard to do by teams of people in a lab with the best technology, but it was happening in treacherous nature without any mindful intervention just cause? Hur-dur.

    Information in terms of evolution is about creating new forms more complex forms from less complex forms. If it was so easy why haven't they produced a new species of fruit flies after all these years? Time scales are all off as well. Whales in 10 million years is impossible using the very same principles. Make even a simple bacteria that works, but don't cheat and just mash already available forms together. Do it the way is supposedly happened.....it can't be done, even with a simple tiny archaea cell, that has maybe 250 genes. Do it without any single preassembled part. Just pure physical chemistry. ....... There is a growing wave of people moving away from Neo-Darwinism.


    I actually think quantum mechanics will hold clues for evolutionary biology. The intention of the atom and its affinity to entangle holds clues there.


    Like you have to really think about how complex even just cell division is..there are hundreds of thousands, if not a million little chemical operations going on, each distinct and each would have had to evolve separately, by chance, with no direction, no meaning, and no memory..like think about the very first instruction: divide, which is of itself a collection of thousands of individual chemical steps that would have had to evolve just happenstance, for no reason, and against the very principles of pro-ported just to pull it off would need hundreds of codes of information do this in the right order and this order just happened to come about even though the likelihood of hundreds of perfectly ordered instructions is statistically less probable than there are molecules in the entire Universe. It would have to dictate instructions in a order of magnitude that exceeds even common sense and it would look like hundreds of these types of process>>>, then this, then this, stop, then this, then this, stop.


    Abiogenesis is proto, even before that point of the code was able to even do something, how did the DNA (RNA early earth wtv) even get to the point where it could have actually done something useful with its code, like you can't think in terms of step by step evolution here of structure, like this is proto-structure. I'm talking random random DNA string of code with no order and therefore no ability to produce meaningful structure. Like why in the fluke chance in hell would it just happen to actually have enough of a pattern to actually instruct something to manifest from seemingly no-thing. Like really what was the sequence way down at that root level long before there even was a DNA code to begin with?? I'm talking dividing the RNA, DNA string into an equal version of itself, you have to understand that even that basic operation that occurs inside a cell is more complex in steps than any mechanical machine mankind has ever built. Abiogenesis just says to us, it was fortuitous, you see? Its like ya fucking right, give me a fucking break.


    Chimpazees in a cage don’t just type out Shakespeare if given the chance. …. Its this kind of blind faith in magical chance that has lead to the creation of The Rise of Skywalker and the magical Mary Sue that can do anything, because the plot needs it.


    Structure of the DNA molecule gives proteins their shape. Structure is function. To tell a molecule to make a shape and then to add new information just by tiny changes in the DNA molecule is just not a good enough principle to demonstrate that evolution was possible in a world BEFORE DNA molecules even had a shape and coded sequence to begin with. Like DNA doesn't just hang out in open pools, or in the depths of the ocean just chilling without protection from the elements.


    Actually the more you look into it the more ludicrous the atheist world view actually becomes. Its like you guys are separated from spirit or something, when really you are just inside the paradigm that needed to happen to escape the clutches of the Christian Church as it had a strangle hold on Civilization's framework perception of reality, along with the burgeoning fields of technological flowering that was occurring at the time. Its okay to submit to a higher power, even if you have been taught form childhood there is none.
    Order is a a human notion.

    DNA replication is not "random". If it was, then things that are incapable of replicating would be as prevalent as things that are capable of replicating. Lifeforms that prosper in their environment are especially good at replicating - this is not "random".

    What happens in the universe happens according to the laws of nature - it is meaningless to say that any one event has "purpose" or is "random".

    We only have one instance of nature to compare things to. You are essentially saying "This happened, it could only have been this way, therefore it must have been created with purpose." This is like a puddle thinking that the hole that it is in was created for it.

    There is no evidence that creating something out of nothing is possible. Chimpanzees typing out the works of Shakespeare someday is merely a matter of estimated low probability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    To put it simply: the structure of the universe cannot have happened randomly. It is a directed effort (it even goes against the second law of thermodynamics). I assume you're an atheist, could you provide some evidence as to god's non existence?
    You can't prove a negative, when you make an assertion that something exists the onus of proof is on you. You can't prove that something doesn't exist, because there are no non-entities in existence that you can refer to as proof. There's an invisible elephant in your room right now, and you can't touch it because your hand would go right through it, prove to me that I'm wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @End, I thought I’d read every story that Jack Vance ever wrote, but I don’t recognize the one that you are describing. What is the name of the story?
    If you have than you are a man of culture that I honestly envy. For I have only had the chance to read a few of them, but I do intend to correct that this year. The man was an absolute genius/grandmaster of storytelling and I hold it to be an absolute fucking crime against the arts that his name and, by extension, his stories are not known by all who call themselves fans of Fantasy and Science-Fiction (at least in the "western" world) from just the samples I've had the pleasure of experiencing. I mean fuck, I've ran into people who are big into D&D and have no fucking clue who Gygax was directly (yet very lovingly and respectfully) ripping off with that system.

    As for the story, it was from his "Tales of the Dying Earth". It was titled "T'sais" and focused on that eponymous, hauntingly beautiful yet very poor girl who, through an accident of her creation by a sorcerer/mage, couldn't see anything beautiful in the world or even accurately conceive of what "beauty" points towards/is a result of but hey, read it again and you'll see he wasn't being subtle about it. It stuck with me for many reasons .

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Lol glad I could make a thread that has been a source of endless amusement.

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