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Thread: TFW someone uses your leading fuction better than you...

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    Default TFW someone uses your leading fuction better than you...

    I wasn't sure if this should be in the "Intertype Relations" section or the "General Socionics Discussion" section.

    Anyway, I haven't seen anything on the interaction between two identical types, only one would be older, mature, more experienced, and most importantly better at the leading function than another. Does this evolve into a mentoring relationship? A rivalry?

    Even if people have the same type they may not have the same personal development which doesn't make them as identical as one would expect.


    Has anyone had such an experience?

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    If i'm SiTe - people dress better, eat better, take better care of their bodies, sleep better, enjoy the food they eat better, more balanced sensory experiences, have a better eye for aesthetics in an externally profitable sense, are less eccentric in their thinking, harmonize with the environment and others, have better control over movement and space, keep their living space clean and healthy
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImOutThere View Post
    Does this evolve into a mentoring relationship? A rivalry?

    Even if people have the same type they may not have the same personal development which doesn't make them as identical as one would expect.
    Could be either depending on the exact situation, there are no hard and fast rules in Socionics. I think you are taking the identical part a little too literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    If i'm SiTe - people dress better, eat better, take better care of their bodies, sleep better, enjoy the food they eat better, more balanced sensory experiences, have a better eye for aesthetics in an externally profitable sense, are less eccentric in their thinking, harmonize with the environment and others, have better control over movement and space, keep their living space clean and healthy
    You are not SiTe, and valuing a function isn't going to mean you conform to it exactly anyways. You could be better or worse at certain aspects of its usage than someone of the same type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    If i'm SiTe - people dress better, eat better, take better care of their bodies, sleep better, enjoy the food they eat better, more balanced sensory experiences, have a better eye for aesthetics in an externally profitable sense, are less eccentric in their thinking, harmonize with the environment and others, have better control over movement and space, keep their living space clean and healthy
    How would interacting with a person like you described make you feel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakram View Post
    Could be either depending on the exact situation, there are no hard and fast rules in Socionics. I think you are taking the identical part a little too literally.



    You are not SiTe, and valuing a function isn't going to mean you conform to it exactly anyways. You could be better or worse at certain aspects of its usage than someone of the same type.
    I don't think I'm taking it too literally, I thought of a dimension to an identical relationship that I haven't seen discussed before. I agree it could go either way, I only wanted to know people's experience of this.



    So, have you experienced someone who is the same type as you only a little more developed?

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    @Muddy
    - yet, with the idea of variance between members of the same type, an infinite chasm between two supposedly identicals, you still think i'm not SLI? Why not? What type do you think i am?

    @ImOutThere
    Neurotic, if invasive towards me, at ease, if gently nudging.
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImOutThere View Post
    Does this evolve into a mentoring relationship?
    identical types people often are pals. where they are not equal - they study at each other in strong regions easier than in average. any info in your strong region you study better than average While identical types give good quality of that info and in format which is easy to understand by both. Identity type should be best teacher in the sense to copy his knowledge and views.

    > Even if people have the same type they may not have the same personal development which doesn't make them as identical as one would expect.

    it's rather evident that as the type is not the only human trait, people of same type are not totally identical lol
    skills and some abbilities may differ also in something
    "personal development" of identical types in the strenght and balance of functions should be close, in average. concrete skills which need to study may differ significantly
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Usually people who engage their normative role instead of base are considered more mature.

    They are forced to seek balanced communal support and conform to it.

    I know identicals who are like that. Bit bland and talk about everyday stuff lacking more detached theories enthusiasm and stuff. Also extremely needy in mobilizing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Usually people who engage their normative role instead of base are considered more mature.

    They are forced to seek balanced communal support and conform to it.

    I know identicals who are like that. Bit bland and talk about everyday stuff lacking more detached theories enthusiasm and stuff. Also extremely needy in mobilizing.
    Why are you calling them boring and needy yet more mature lol. Usually I agree with you but this idea doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe it only seems more mature in the case of Ne vs. Se but for shallow obvious reasons.

    I would guess it's more like if they engage role they're comfortable and branching out a bit, but it doesn't always go well. In a comfortable situation doesn't necessarily mean more mature though. And actually technically role is for social front, so canonical socionics would say the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Why are you calling them boring and needy yet more mature lol. Usually I agree with you but this idea doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe it only seems more mature in the case of Ne vs. Se but for shallow obvious reasons.

    I would guess it's more like if they engage role they're comfortable and branching out a bit, but it doesn't always go well. In a comfortable situation doesn't necessarily mean more mature though.
    That is what people are telling me. That I should grow a pair of serotonin excreting balls and be like everyone else. Lol. Not gonna happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    That is what people are telling me. That I should grow a pair of serotonin excreting balls and be like everyone else. Lol. Not gonna happen.
    Lol yeah self-acceptance is more mature than trying to squeeze into a mold.

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    I guess in my case it'd be the majority of men anytime they physically lift something, and professional athletes? Lol. Should I feel a clash of egos? Maybe I do...

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    - yet, with the idea of variance between members of the same type, an infinite chasm between two supposedly identicals, you still think i'm not SLI? Why not? What type do you think i am?
    How did you go from "variance between members of the same type" (which is true) to "an infinite chasm (hyperbole at best [within the confines of Socionics theory])?" lol Who or what entity has ever said or implied that there was an "infinite chasm" between identicals? Hyperbole aside, still a ridiculous claim. Identity is defined by a general ease of information transmission across the same aspects, which often creates a mutual understanding, sympathy and empathy for the other's "perspective" and orientation--I'd think an "infinite chasm" would get in the way of that and undermine the whole premise of another wearing one's own "identity," which doesn't mean that identicals must always like each other or that they can't disagree, of course.

    Yes, there is intra-type diversity (differing strength, focus, or accentuation of a particular function[s]) at the base "hardware" level and then additional layers like socialization, upbringing, and overall "health," all of which might potentially create a significant "gulf" within a type or the perception of a type. But significant ≠ "infinite," and all of those traits you attributed to yourself (and especially taken as a whole) cross the threshold for outlier SLI and into chameleon, perspective shifting IEI that seems attached to the notion of being SLI for some reason. lol And I mean no offense.

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    I think like animals of the same species, they'd give each other space if possible and occasionally interact. Or just take turns doing stuff, or the weaker person would be phased out and look elsewhere for a more mutually beneficial interaction. It seems like something like that happens when I meet other SLEs anyway.

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    @Alonzo
    No offense taken.

    Hyperbole it was - a finger pointing (somewhat poorly, as evidenced by your reply) towards something i consider an undeniable truth of any conceptual system that wishes to enter the inner space of people: it cannot. The ''infinite chasm'' is simply the space between two minds, only able to confirm exopresent things, phenomenological appearances, nothing more. I simply played a bit on Muddy's statements of me not being SLI, while admitting that there was nothing strictly ''identical'' in Identicals.

    As for me being SLI, i admit that some things stand on shaky ground. My consideration of it is mostly me observing my own mind and trying to fit it into descriptors - although i have accepted that the mind allows no such thing to confine it. I am really unsure here, just testing grounds and playing a bit with others' perceptions of me - it is also a bit of a game, which is both based in truth and illusion really. I think it is necessary for humans to ''act'' roles to complete or totally unify the system as much as possible, it is in our very blood after all. Socionics confirms, establishes and directs, it doesn't just confirm.
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    hey Muddy

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    Ah, yes. I've had my moments of:
    "Who are you?"
    "I'm you, but better"
    479 so/sx



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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    @Muddy
    - yet, with the idea of variance between members of the same type, an infinite chasm between two supposedly identicals, you still think i'm not SLI? Why not? What type do you think i am?
    You lack the dryness I associate with SLI. I can't really say I have opinion a firm about your type as of now. I just whimsically give opinions on types and I don't claim to be an expert. I'll leave that territory to people like K4M.

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    It's gonna happen a lot , the world is obviously unfair and ppl have certain privileges in life and maybe they worked harder than you at it or maybe they just had more privileges and better luck/a better family that supported and nurtured their leading function much better but either way.... comparison is the thief of joy and you'd probably kill yourself paying too much attention to all the ways other people are better and how you suck.

    Ya gotta remember socionics is just one facet of reality and reality is very very complex and there are tons of other factors and non-socionics stuff working at the same time that is going to make some IEIs homeless on the streets near-suicidal and some wealthy very happy and at peace billionaires (even if they have Te polr cuz its too simplistic to be like Te = money.) And its rarer but then there is the ones that are wealthy billionaires but still kill themselves over depression and some that are poor losers but are still more or less content and happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    @Alonzo
    No offense taken.

    Hyperbole it was - a finger pointing (somewhat poorly, as evidenced by your reply) towards something i consider an undeniable truth of any conceptual system that wishes to enter the inner space of people: it cannot. The ''infinite chasm'' is simply the space between two minds, only able to confirm exopresent things, phenomenological appearances, nothing more. I simply played a bit on Muddy's statements of me not being SLI, while admitting that there was nothing strictly ''identical'' in Identicals.

    As for me being SLI, i admit that some things stand on shaky ground. My consideration of it is mostly me observing my own mind and trying to fit it into descriptors - although i have accepted that theyour mind allows no such thing to confine it. I am really unsure here, just testing grounds and playing a bit with others' perceptions of me - it is also a bit of a game, which is both based in truth and illusion really. I think it is necessary for humans to ''act'' roles to complete or totally unify the system as much as possible, it is in our very blood after all. Socionics confirms, establishes and directs, it doesn't just confirm.
    Yes, I totally "got" all of the above and realized a while back that you tend to "play" with the notion of persona/identity around here but Te finds it frustrating nonetheless (though role Fe attempts to deal and be diplomatic). lol Te believes in the adherence to and application of objective truths and when someone or something clearly falls within the scope and boundaries of a certain rubric/metric/parameter [within any given system] but resists that classification (*ahem* Te PoLR *ahem*), that's experienced as someone needlessly and heedlessly "bucking the system" or better yet, some virus bugging the system, which then warrants said virus' quarantine and sanctioning. lol

    When I think and say shit like that, Te's predisposition towards authoritarianism becomes glaringly apparent. Regardless, that is how it's experienced by Te. In order for the system to work, one must know and assume their role, or else there is confusion, instability and chaos--if it's one crucial thing the German language taught me, it's that there can be great beauty, creativity and freedom within the confines of order and structure. So just allow yourself to be "structured"...a bit. That is Te's contribution to the world > order. Though I antagonize Sol quite often (primarily when I believe that he is being disingenuous) I most certainly understand his Gestapo, stalker-esque, Te compulsion to "correct" what he believes should be corrected, for the sake of order and system integrity. Arguably he goes too far, but his form of aid just manifests through a more abrasive, direct, unsympathetic Te channel. I personally sympathize with him because on a forum/space that seems to favor/accommodate/acquiesce to low D Te, it can be cognitively vexing and disorienting for Te leads and so I can easily rationalize his stubborn doggedness as pushing back against overwhelming odds.

    But seeing as how there are numerous people/types that go against the Te directive to varying extents and degrees, clearly "order" is not the cure all for everything and I acknowledge that. But within Socionics, LIE > IEI supervision exists in order to audit, revise and modify Ni+Fe in a way that suits and informs Te, which is why I feel compelled to audit you (though I most definitely don't want to be aggressive, pushy and neurotic about it, because I'm not aiming to cause anyone undue psychological stress). Moreover, if you were SLI, it would be your cognitive task to audit my Te+Ni to fit your Si, but I get that from neither you nor your forum presence--and trust me, I'm extremely familiar with the dynamics of that particular ITR. Instead, I receive a bounty of deep, interesting, thought provoking Ni+Fe that I try to parse for Te clarity.

    The rub is that irrational types, and IEIs, in particular, are skeptical about external sources of information that contradict their own subjective insight (Te PoLR), which then obviously and frustratingly makes it difficult for them to fully get and understand that their constant perspective shifting/playing with self-perceptions/transient identity [Ni+Fe] is all a typical feature of the type and not the "bug." We both come from a very Delta leaning part of the world and SLI would be the "social mask" of the IEI--it would make sense for you to have experienced a lot of social "pressure" on that particular (conscious but non-valued) aspect of your psyche. How do you think I feel? My whole life I've felt supervised af. lol But Muddy is correct--from observing you, if it's one thing I'm certain you are not, it's Fe PoLR--Fe almost always shows up in your posts, in some form or fashion. The SLIs and ILIs I've interacted with over the course of my lifetime are legion and I'm well aware of the diversity present within those sociotypes, but none have ever, and I do mean, ever so belligerently struck me as a IEI. lol

    Forgive this indulgent, somewhat tangential cathartic purge, but I've been thinking about some of this stuff (re: existing among Te PoLRs) for a while now. And by all means, keep "questioning."
    Last edited by Alonzo; 08-10-2019 at 07:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    identical types people often are pals. where they are not equal - they study at each other in strong regions easier than in average. any info in your strong region you study better than average While identical types give good quality of that info and in format which is easy to understand by both. Identity type should be best teacher in the sense to copy his knowledge and views.

    > Even if people have the same type they may not have the same personal development which doesn't make them as identical as one would expect.

    it's rather evident that as the type is not the only human trait, people of same type are not totally identical lol
    skills and some abbilities may differ also in something
    "personal development" of identical types in the strenght and balance of functions should be close, in average. concrete skills which need to study may differ significantly
    If you accept that functions can be developed further then you need to accept the possibility that functions can develop differently according to experience, when you accept these two things you'll realize that two identical types could look drastically different. There was no talk about what you call "human traits" nor am I talking about concrete skill, I'm talking about socionics.

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    @Alonzo
    Yes, it is sort of impossible to ignore those tells, even if i have some sort of personal insight which, in its exclusivity, leads the whole internal analysis skewed. I hope you don't think i haven't taken your posts to heart - the lucidity of your perceptions are a great help in understanding the response i produce in this place, for example.

    As for the ''chameleonic'' nature - i will refer to a theme i also touched upon in the daydreaming thread: my minds eye tends to change the lens every time i am in contact with something, even my own ''static'' stages of life. One day i can think myself as something supposedly diametrically opposed to something the other day, this is something i have been aware of for a long time: the waxing and waning of my mind. It clutters the external world and i have found solitude preferable because of it, this constant change. Something undeniably ascribed to IEI.

    I will keep questioning, no matter how banal they may seem to the observer. Thank you for your continued participation in my 'dilemma of structure', to play in your ballpark.
    I'm already feeling more IEI as i write.
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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