View Poll Results: Your role and self-identified subtype

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5. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm exploiter and D

    0 0%
  • I'm exploiter and C

    0 0%
  • I'm exploiter and N

    0 0%
  • I'm exploiter and H

    0 0%
  • I'm worker and N

    1 20.00%
  • I'm wroker and H

    0 0%
  • I'm worker and D

    0 0%
  • I'm worker and C

    0 0%
  • I'm whipping boy and H

    0 0%
  • I'm whipping boy and D

    0 0%
  • I'm whipping boy and C

    0 0%
  • I'm whipping boy and N

    0 0%
  • I'm Indepedent and C

    2 40.00%
  • I'm Indepedent and N

    0 0%
  • I'm Indepedent and H

    0 0%
  • I'm Indepedent and D

    0 0%
  • I understand DCNH, finally!

    1 20.00%
  • I like to drink kool aid

    3 60.00%
  • I think I'm mixed breed

    3 60.00%
  • I'm the feeder aka GOD

    1 20.00%
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Thread: DCNH type and your role in a society as a rat in a feeding cage

  1. #1
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    Default DCNH type and your role in a society as a rat in a feeding cage

    Gulenko draws the parallel here


    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fsocion iks.net%2Farticle%2F%3Fid%3D216


    Here is article which goes more in depth into the study. It also draws parallel to prison hierarchy system which forms similar hierarchy (apparently there are also independents in prisons who can be fear or indifference inducing enough in that crowd)
    https://steemit.com/psychology/@nato...nd-independent


    Here is the point: 6 rats were sent to fetch food and route goes through unpleasant route (water). After several experiments it was noted that following roles repeated almost 100 % of time.

    Roles were distributed as follows: 2x Exploiters, 2x Workers, 1x Whipping boy and 1x Independent


    Gulenko draws the following conclusion

    Dominant subtype: Exploiter
    Normalizing subtype: Worker
    Harmonizing subtype: Whipping boy (eats left overs and can not defend its rights)
    Creative subtype: Independent (feeds itself)
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
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    One thing I noted was that when they put all of one "type" together those also differentiated out into the same roles. So among the dominants, if everyone is a dominant, they still split into some exploiters, slaves, independents etc. This is something that also applies to DCNH and humans - one may have a certain role among one group, and a different role among another. You see this in everyday action too. A group of kids will be playing, and one decides he's the leader, starts bossing other people around, but when a teacher or coach shows up, suddenly that same kid is the slave, the worker kid doing whatever the coach/teacher wants. In other words going from D to N.

    It'd be interesting to see how different groups would end up interacting and adapting to each other, if you'd see patterns emerging. Does H exist only when there are enough D and Ns around? Seems like that might be the case based on what was said about that group only appearing when the numbers increased. In other words, there needs to be enough waste from the Ds and Ns for them to be able to exist on the crumbs, and perhaps enough going on with the other groups for them to go unnoticed.

     

    I see myself as one of the independent rats heh (maybe that's how we all envision ourselves) - but also from experience know that I'd be encouraging the slaves to become independents too, or to combine resources together and make the fatass exploiters take care of themselves. And defending the rights of the scavengers to scavenge as they wished. But slaves are the "useful idiots" and don't want to be independents. As a social commentary on present conditions in the US - I see the exploiters currently using slaves to try to usurp a different set of exploiters and independents. One group of slaves are the pink-haired weirdos crying about every little thing, "oh no, don't say that word, I might cry" - and then they all cheer, "ha ha look at us, we have powah!!" but they're just being used to transfer power back to the exploiters.

    I'm curious too if the nature of the divisions changed based on the composition of the starting group: ie if you start with all independents do you have looser divisions of power than if you start with all dominants, and what if you start with all scavengers? do the resulting groups all look identical or does each have a different character?

    I kind of think in humans at least that they do have a different character. I was recently doing some research and reading various things from the time period of the Revolutionary War. And if you think about what kinds of people were coming here at that time - many explorers (independents) many people seeking to make their own life in a new land (independents) quite a few literal slaves (who generally fought on the British side) and some dominants (slave owners and governors) and then you see what resulted from mostly creative types forming a government. Later on the character of immigrants changed - slowly the character changed from independents to scavengers. This is because anyone immigrating into an established country to pick up what scraps they can is more scavenger like, and anyone coming to a new country to see what they can build and create on their own in more independent like. Of course you'll get normalizers mixed into both groups as well. So, the nature of immigration always changes over time as the land they are traveling to changes.

    But also, as things become more established a caste system develops and the dominants and normalizers start becoming the majority. In other words, you get authoritarians of various stripes and their slaves. And that's what you see now - groups of authoritarians fighting each other, but using their minions to do so. And the libertarians (independents, C) types are a much smaller group, and the H types (the disaffected, hey idk, I'm just along for the ride) types don't participate at all. You also see the nature of various business change based on the environment - you can have a very C-type business like Google become more of a D-type business because it's just too easy to step into power even if that wasn't the intent when the vacuum exists in an area. Amazon was always a D-type business though.

  3. #3
    mclane's Avatar
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    The secret to DCNH is that you have more than one type, same as socionics.

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    thanks for the thread 007, saves me some time. I work as a programmer in a big german company with hundreds of SLI and LSE, so subtypes interest me a lot. I do think that the subtype of a person is fixed and still requires a huge impact to change. I don't know if a subtype changes in a group enviroment. let's say a normalising subtype gets a lot of authority so he can work on a very important project with a large team, he might be more bold and agressive, but from my observation he still stays a normalising subtype, and he will change his behaviour again once he finishes the project. dominant subtypes have this constant air of authority around them, even if they only play a minor role in a project. maybe the normalising subtype just focuses on an extroverted function for a short amount of time, but it might drain him rather quickly.

    I think genetics seem to play a large role in a subtype of a person. from my observation it seems that very tall and muscular men often fall into the dominant subtype for example, while harmonsing subtypes are very common among very short people (they also seem to be common among autists, people with disabilities, homeless and very obese people.)

    dominant subtype have accentuated Te, Se and Fe. it seems to me that they barely focus on introverted functions and they don't really think about the consequences of their action.

    (I will write more later)
    Last edited by soundofconfusion; 08-09-2019 at 05:51 PM.

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    Interesting article. I don't think there exist a real correlation with DCNH though, because the subtype doesn't change with with the same frequency as the environments in which humans move and according theory, people don't change subtypes so often (2 times in life if so, probably).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragdoll Lynx View Post
    Interesting article. I don't think there exist a real correlation with DCNH though, because the subtype doesn't change with with the same frequency as the environments in which humans move and according theory, people don't change subtypes so often (2 times in life if so, probably).
    You are not going to change your role in eyes of a society but you will change your role in a group.
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    it's interesting that a subtype doesn't seem to have a huge correlation with overall hapiness and that gulenko thinks that dominant subtypes have the hardest life overall.

    I think a subtype change happens very rarely, and it's probably more often a downgrade. creative subtype becomes normalising after a depression for example.

    creative suvtypes (Ne, Se and Fe accentuation) are probably the most difficult to get along with. I've only met a few of them who have had a succesful relationship that lasted >15 years. they want to be famous and are often too focused on their own interest (that's why harmonising subtypes are their dual, because they self sacrifize themselves). they do fairly well in relationships with other creative subtypes, but since both want to become famous, they don't get that much attention from the other person.

    normalising subtypes are extremly common. I don't have any statistics, but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that they make up around 40-50% of the population. here I noticed that the function that a normalising subtype prefers has a huge effect on the comfort of my interaction with them. the functions they prefer are Ti, Fi and Si. developed Ti seems to be more common among men (very pedantic behaviour, I have problems with this) and Fi among women (overanxious behaviour). they are absolutely necessary for a functioning society. they are in danger of getting "stuck" in a job or system, in america it's called "wageslaving"

    a speculation I have is that many third-world countries mostly have harmonising subtypes, that's why there's such a lack of structure. (this is an oversimplification of course). harmonising subtypes are sadly the ones that can be easily opressed and taken advantage of (normalising to some degree too). these are imo the subtypes that work in factories under extreme conditions to sew clothes or build electronics for the west.

  8. #8
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    Well, I think I'm not going to become a N sub even if my life is at stake and I get pressure from all directions. Too much eccentricities going on (pretty high default settings in schizotypy). In the end I can follow the main rules not to get in trouble, but I'm still going to ignore the peasants and bosses and let things be free.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    You are not going to change your role in eyes of a society but you will change your role in a group.
    A group is a small society.

    Group: a number of people that are together in one place.
    Society: a large group of people who live in the same area and have the same laws, traditions, etc.

    DCNH= Accentuates IEs (dominant function, creative function , normalizing function, harmonic function according the stacking in each type). DCNH subtype doesn't change so often as one can change groups (small societies). One person rarely change subtype.

    Then, EII-D= EII (Fi, dominant function),
    The brightest, most vivid subtype – within the limits of type, and in general. This subtype has greatest similarity to its type's descriptions.
    EII-H=EII (Se, Harmonizing function in EII stacking)
    Quite lively and recognizable by his main type's description, however, in comparison with the classic type description he is "suspiciously" nice. It seems that the negative traits of a sociotype have no relation to the harmonizing subtype...Like the Dominant subtype, the Harmonizing subtype functions as a connector, that is, he establishes the necessary links to the environment. But where Dominant does so crudely and directly, Harmonizing does so by careful manipulation (he is capable of manipulation that provides multiple moves, for the purpose of making another person become well).The Harmonizing subtype monitors social desirability and conforms to it.x
    <--This happens since the negative traits of the sociotype are not manifesting as openly or evident as in Dominant subtype, hence this subtypes act as harmonizer, hiding its failures.

    At least that's how I understand DCNH and my base.

    Question: what will happen in a rats cage between an EII-D(Fi) and an EII-C (Se)? who will be the exploiter and who the slave? That's why I don't think there exist much actual correlation. Disclaimer: Gulenko doesn't always make sense according reality imo, Ti (one's personal standards of truth) >Te ( factual information outside the subject).
    Last edited by Ragdoll Cat; 08-09-2019 at 08:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Well, I think I'm not going to become a N sub even if my life is at stake and I get pressure from all directions. Too much eccentricities going on (pretty high default settings in schizotypy). In the end I can follow the main rules not to get in trouble, but I'm still going to ignore the peasants and bosses and let things be free.
    yeah, but let's say you get involved in a car accident and you become disabled, then you might change your subtype. (I obviously don't wish that on you).

    creative subtypes also have major mood swings. periods of inspiration and productivity can easily change to a depressive state and vice versa

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    I think these temperament descriptions describe the subtypes very well

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...le=Temperament

    EJ dominant
    EP creative
    IJ normalising
    IP harmonising
    Last edited by soundofconfusion; 08-09-2019 at 10:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    creative subtypes also have major mood swings. periods of inspiration and productivity can easily change to a depressive state and vice versa
    Hmm. By that definition being a creative subtype is not totally off for me...
    Anyway... I get ego boost when I can solve problems MacGyver style... of course not using MacGyver methods, because they're nonsense most of the time.

    At least I tend to lost a lot of inner balance when my physical health is affected.

    I guess I'm not conflict averse enough nowadays to classify as a harmonizing type.

    Ok, this thread is supposed to be a thread about DCNH in general, I guess... not about a particalar person like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    IP normalising
    IJ harmonising
    Why this way and not the other way around?

    IJ = base introverted judgement function
    IP = base interverted perception function

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Hmm. By that definition being a creative subtype is not totally off for me...
    Anyway... I get ego boost when I can solve problems MacGyver style... of course not using MacGyver methods, because they're nonsense most of the time.

    At least I tend to lost a lot of inner balance when my physical health is affected.

    I guess I'm not conflict averse enough nowadays to classify as a harmonizing type.

    Ok, this thread is supposed to be a thread about DCNH in general, I guess... not about a particalar person like me.


    Why this way and not the other way around?

    IJ = base introverted judgement function
    IP = base interverted perception function
    I made a mistake here, it's the other way around. IP is harmonising

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    one thing to consider is that contact types have accentuated Se, that's why they often have conflicts with their enviroment. they are also more physically active than norm, harmo subtypes. creative subtype sensing types appear more intuitive, while normalising intuitive types appear more as sensing types. from my observation they are very good at housework because of their desire for order. dominant subtypes want order, but it's too tiring for them to actually take care of mundane stuff.

    creative subtypes are really chaotic and forgetful in everyday life. these are the types that leave their child in a hot car during the summer for example. that's why creative identical relationships are a little bit dangerous for a family life.

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    here's a compilation of DCNH stuff from reddit btw. might be helpful.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.red...ems_resources/

    it's interesting that jordan peterson partly talked about these subtypes from another perspective. I think in this video he talks about dominant men and normalising women.

    https://youtu.be/7STtjfoWz38

    and in this one he talks about creatives (and intuitives in general to some extend).

    https://youtu.be/ocDli45faiw

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    I think my dad downgraded himself to normalizing (he was forced not to become an artist) and now he has been in an upgrading process coming back to native creative. For SLI he made this almost look like a natural transition.
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    it's interesting to see that these hierachies also exist in very democratic societies. for example, if one of my normalising bosses at my company needs someone to do an extra shift the next day, he won't call a creative subtype, he will call a harmonising subtype, who almost always says yes, unless he needs to do something for his family.

    this insight might be very obvious to other people, but it's not so easy to see for me with Se as vulnerable function.

    from what I've observed, harmonising subtypes seem to almost always have a succesful relationship (+15-20 years), or they don't have a partner at all. ethical normalising types also often have stable relationships, while logical types seem to struggle.

    I've looked a bit at the statistics for marriage. the divorce rate in europe seems to be around 40-45 percent. I'm assuming that normalising and harmonising subtypes make up the majority of types in stable relationships.

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    Gulenko on Terminal/Initial subtypes and a 32 subtype test (Terminal/Initial)
    https://www.reddit.com/r/JungianTypology/comments/842w8e/gulenko_on_terminalinitial_subtypes_and_a_32/


    ILE:

    • FINDER terminal (invents - from the English. Inventor ) It has a great flair for the new. Often becomes the author of many inventions and discoveries. Unsurpassed generator of ideas. In its proposals very bold. But it is easy throws bored business and switches to a new - more exciting. He is able to express themselves in business. It is characterized by dynamics, rapid speech, a large number of gestures. He often dense physique, manly look, mustache, if it is a man. It attaches great importance to appearance.
    • FINDER initial (recoverable - from the English. Extractor ) Introspection and thoughtful man. He is attracted to abstract ideas that do not have direct contact with reality, such as philosophy, religion, bio-energy, etc. His favorite pastime -.. To compare between different logical systems. Type armchair scientist. It is characterized by asthenic figure. It is angular in his movements, not to pay attention to appearance, cares little about health.
    Contacting Distancing
    Terminating Dominating subtype (connecting) Normalizing subtype (ignoring)
    Initiating Creative subtype (ignoring) Harmonizing subtype (connecting)

    According to this terminal is either D/N (which is erroneously (?) translated as Ne) and initial is C/H (which is erroneously(?) translated as Ti).

    This make lots of sense because I would classify myself as Ti sub in interest with some of the Ne sub behaviors and look.

    I have seen engineering heavy ILE's and they would probably be D/N subtypes [emphasis on N?] while the C/H would be some sort of philosopher or scientist brand which I am. Engineering would drain me.
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    oh I haven't read that one yet. as far as I know, he stopped using the 2 subtype system a while ago.

    I've read an article from Gulenko a year or so ago where he wrote about 192 types. he builds them based on the 16 types, 4 DCNH subtypes, and the 3 accentuations for each subtype (dominant: Te, Se, Fe), creative (Ne, Se, Fe), normalising (Ti, Fi, Si) and harmonising (Ni, Fi, Si). he mentions that, when humans build a new village, they are usually the most efffective with a population of 200, because then they cover all necessary skills. I can't really remember the details and where I read it (if it was his website or a random link on reddit), but if I find the article again I will post it here

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    I've found this article so far, where he mentions that his school differentiates between 64 types. (so basically the types and DCNH)

    https://socioniks.net/article/?id=281

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    A Table of subtypes of DCNH subtypes:

    D sub-subtype IME note
    D-P Te
    D-F Se
    D-E Fe extra
    C
    C-I Ne
    C-E Fe
    C-F Se extra
    N
    N-L Ti
    N-S Si
    N-R Fi extra
    H
    H-T Ni
    H-R Fi
    H-S Si extra
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
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    I would really like to figure out more about the amount of subtypes. some combination seem to get along better with each other. I observe this dynamic constantly at work. sometimes a creative subtype finds a harmonising subtype extremly annoying, but then he gets along well with another harmoniser. it seems to me that some combinations work better, but it could be that this accentuation of a subtype switches more easily. from my ILE normalising friends, I get along extremly well with the one that has a high Si accentuation (focuses on comfort and his body, loves fine food and comfortable and fashionable clothes), while I don't get along with the pedantic Ti accentuation.

    I personally think that I'm a creative subtype with Ne accentuation. I'm mostly focused on theoretical possibilities. I really related to the strenghening of Ne in Gulenko's first DCNH article from 2006 ("Strengthening function forms affective-labile behavior. This is secondary creativity, connected to intellectual fantasy, nonstandard ideas, directed not towards output based on dead-end situations, but to the solutions of future problems.").

    in general, these accentuations are very difficult to notice. you have to be sure of someones type and subtype, and then you need to pay attention to what they focus on, what their interests and pursuit are etc. it can take some time to figure that out

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    That's what I said from the get go regarding DCNH. That type changes very quickly according to the environment. That's why it's useless. You have someone that is N or C in one environment and you can't predict how he will behave if the environment changes.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    the subtype is very stable. if you have 4 dominant subtypes in a group, then one of them might adapt a normalising behaviour. when they are outside of this group enviroment, they get back into their dominant behaviour. the subtypes are important because some combinations will have unsuccesful relationships (terminating and initiating types are incompatible). it's important to research that. gulenko even says now that subtypes are more important for long term success than intertype relationships
    Last edited by soundofconfusion; 08-15-2019 at 06:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    the subtype is very stable. if you have 4 dominant subtypes in a group, then one of them might adapt a normalising behaviour. when they are outside of this group enviroment, they get back into their dominant behaviour. the subtypes are important because some combinations will have unsuccesful relationships (terminating and initiating types are incompatible). it's important to research that. gulenko even says now that subtypes are more important for long term success than intertype relationships
    Yeah you are at a family lunch and act as a normalizer prime and proper. Then you've got your sports training in the late afternoon, you're quite good and lead your guys, D. During the night you help out your friend who plays guitar in a band, H.
    I purposefully excluded a work setting because in that case the change from one environment to another is even more accentuated.
    That's being human and useless from a theoretical socionics pov. Gulenko should forget about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah you are at a family lunch and act as a normalizer prime and proper. Then you've got your sports training in the late afternoon, you're quite good and lead your guys, D. During the night you help out your friend who plays guitar in a band, H.
    I purposefully excluded a work setting because in that case the change from one environment to another is even more accentuated.
    That's being human and useless from a theoretical socionics pov. Gulenko should forget about that.
    the subtype doesn't change when you are at a family lunch or when you help a friend.

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    I must say it seems like someone has practiced his role. Pretty impressive blending.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    the subtype doesn't change when you are at a family lunch or when you help a friend.
    Why? Even Gulenko said it changes...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    I must say it seems like someone has practiced his role. Pretty impressive blending.
    I'm interested in your analysis. Tbh I'm a bit shocked about the fact that you put so much stock in this theory.
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    That is actuallyquite multilayered process.

    OK, there are ILE's who do not use Se in your face kind of way (like dominant subtype would). I'm going to give one example: he runs around in Se kind of activities such as hunting and orienteering etc I'd say that is normative Se on top of that due to his activities he has been focusing on Fi and for his actual profession has learned Ti information but deals actively with people. He would be ILE-N-R. Then are those more technical analytical minded action takers they would be ILE-N-L maybe some sort of (technical) admin work. They both are quite subdued in their interests but well adjusted individuals. That is normative representation in a nutshell.

    LIE normative won't be some sort of emotional turmoil generating individual or Richard Branson with their Fe either but they would rather be engaging with social activities and maybe dealing with their connections (N-R) etc.

    It is mostly rather bird eye perspective on paper first and secondly averaged out interactions with the society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Why? Even Gulenko said it changes...
    the subtype doesn't change when you help a friend. that's called, like you said, being a human. 99% of the time you will have a stable subtype, but certain factors in your enviroment might force you to behave in a different way. when a creative subtype is under huge pressure because of a job, he might become a dominant or normalising subtype (depending on his energy) just to survive. as soon as he is in a safe enviroment again, he will go back to his usual state of being a creative.

    gulenko's shs, dcnh and model g system mostly appeals to creative subtypes. there are nearly no normalising types that study it.

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    I listed roles which are up for a debate
    subtype [enhanced] sub-subtype Focus on IME [as seen in behavior] note suggested role
    D [base] leader
    D-P Te entrepreneur
    D-F Se mover
    D-E Fe extra commander
    C [creative] individualist
    C-I Ne synthesizer
    C-E Fe artistry
    C-F Se extra exciter
    N [role] worker
    N-L Ti pedant
    N-S Si stabilizer
    N-R Fi extra dependent
    H [PoLR] weakest link
    H-T Ni philosopher
    H-R Fi signaler
    H-S Si extra pacifier
    Last edited by Heretic 007; 08-18-2019 at 04:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    I listed roles which are up for a debate
    subtype [enhanced] sub-subtype Focus on IME [as seen in behavior] note suggested role
    D [base] leader
    D-P Te entrepreneur
    D-F Se mover
    D-E Fe extra commander
    C [creative] individualist
    C-I Ne synthesizer
    C-E Fe artistry
    C-F Se extra exciter
    N [role] worker
    N-L Ti pedant
    N-S Si stabilizer
    N-R Fi extra dependent
    H [PoLR] weakest link
    H-T Ni philosopher
    H-R Fi signaler
    H-S Si extra pacifier
    this looks good. Se accentuation in a creative subtype seems to lead to greedy behaviour. they want to experience things. people who travel the world, do extreme sports, or athletes/artists that live an outrageous life seem to imo be often creative subtypes with Se accentuation. Ti accentuation in normalising types is an irrational obsession with rules, while Fi accentuation is an irrational fear of things. in harmonising types, a Fi accentuation is even more extreme (my brother has this accentuation), it's a complete fear of even the most basic things in life. Si accentuation seems to be very common among extremly obese people.

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    one thing to keep in mind is that a subtype has all 3 functions accentuated, but one seems to always play a more dominant role.

    to give an example: Thom Yorke from Radiohead seems to be a harmonising IEI with strong Ni but also with Fi accentuation:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk-_Tsiu0Rg

    (read the lyrics of the song)

    have been thinking a lot lately if I should create a gallery of subtypes, but that would be even more time consuming than my gallery of types. I also like Gulenko's example of Gogol as harmonising EIE. this is a very vulnerable subtype that's capable of deep reflections because of the constant focus on introverted functions. this is great for the creative subtype, because creative is the most intellectually curious subtype that also has the energy to take care of the harmoniser. this subtype duality rarely happens, though.

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