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Thread: What are alphas transparent / untransparent about?

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    Default What are alphas transparent / untransparent about?

    Out of curiosity.

    B/c every quadra seems to be really open about some things and more implicit - or closed - about others.

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    I’d say that Alphas seem most transparent to Fe and most opaque to Fi, but that’s just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I’d say that Alphas seem most transparent to Fe and most opaque to Fi, but that’s just my opinion.
    I think you actually hit (a) nail on the head. Every Alpha I’ve ever known does their best to steer conversation away from Fi territory. SFs just totally devalue it and some almost seem to scorn Fi-expression; the NTs just mostly feel uncomfortable with it, and aren’t really able to navigate those waters well.

    As a side note, my parents are ESE and ILI. Their marriage is pretty bad, and has affected them both pretty badly — Socionics probably explains the causes well enough. My father seems to resent my mother for, effectively, subverting all his expectations and desires of a dual. A large part of this just seems to be brushing off expressions of Fi that arise periodically, and treating them as if they’re nothing — especially if he says something that comes from a point of vulnerability. It’s not really that she doesn’t understand he’s upset or moved, but doesn’t see any point in responding in the Fi-fashion an ESI or SEE would. If he’ll start talking about these deeply held vaguely repressed emotions or fears, she responds with a bright tone (even if sympathetic), and her effective response is to proffer this good mood or feeling — maybe bring him his favorite snacks — to make him feel better, rather than address his issues at their core. He then seems to feel at once like he ought to be grateful, but he’s still frustrated or upset or whatever, and he’ll come to direct it at her; she doesn’t treat him right; she doesn’t listen; so on and so on, degenerating further into this immature, impotent rage. Weirdly, in time he comes to resemble almost a parody of an infantile type — complaining she doesn’t Caregive him the proper way; she doesn’t baby his infantile fancies; she doesn’t feed him the food he likes, again, like a baby throwing a tantrum.

    (This is more of a vent than side note; I apologize.)
    Gods and men name her Aphrodite...Cyprus-born, because she was born in wave-dashed Cyprus; and lover of smiles, because she emerged out of the genitals.

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    I know a male LIE who is married to a female LII, and their attempts to work together very quickly descend into screaming matches.

    Oddly enough, the LIE seems to like to work with LII's. (Well, I do, too.) I think the difference is in what kind of support you expect from coworkers, vs what you expect from an SO. In the case of the LIE and his LII wife, neither of them are getting the "feels" that they so desperately need.

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    Alphas sometimes act transparent but are the least transparent quadra IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Alphas sometimes act transparent but are the least transparent quadra IMO.
    Can you elaborate (if you feel up to it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    Can you elaborate (if you feel up to it)
    I think alphas are the best at bullshitting on the surface to act normal. Something about the smooth use of valued Fe and Si. As kids I just thought they were trolly, but as adults this ability is actually useful and super cunning lol.

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    ILE's lack of Fi hurt so much more than SLE's because of this weightlessness in Ne/Si. It's alienlike.
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    ILE's lack of Fi hurt so much more than SLE's because of this weightlessness in Ne/Si. It's alienlike.
    Lol. What's your type? I suppose you're a Ni ego? I sometimes think of Gamma NTs as aliens for what that's worth.
    Gods and men name her Aphrodite...Cyprus-born, because she was born in wave-dashed Cyprus; and lover of smiles, because she emerged out of the genitals.

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    I wrote a lot but it got erased. According to model B, alphas (along with deltas) value "+Fi", and "-Fe". Which means the brand of Fe they prefer seems to be more low-key and sincere. They value emotional bonds and relationships more than socionics literature would make you expect. However, especially SEI-ILE, they don't value sticking things out when the going gets tough, until they or the relationship reach full maturity-- which is where the flighty, contradictory image comes from and why alpha is associated with childhood. A baby doesn't keep its anal sphincter closed; it just goes ahead and shits itself. Not necessarily a bad thing. For them it's a smart adaptation that suits their needs.

    Just some thoughts on alphas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    ILE's lack of Fi hurt so much more than SLE's because of this weightlessness in Ne/Si. It's alienlike.
    N and F are both internalities / internal IE, so ILE have a leg up on us psychically. If I want to try to hurt someone, I have to point out real things about them that suck that I've noticed. I can't pack a punch unless the person has already dug their own grave. I've never been emotionally hurt by another SLE. On the other hand, ILEs are essentially just autistic. It's sort of like they view people running around in the world as projections of their mind and only they themselves really exist, 95% of the time.

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    I feel like alphas are either constantly amazed or semi-in-denial of the fact that there's an at least somewhat static world around them

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    @FreelancePoliceman
    I'm kind of in between the IXXP types minus SEI, actually.

    @sbbds
    Yeah, there's a concretion to SLE that isn't there for ILE - the 'weight' of being in a relationship with other people is noticeable in SLE, where there sometimes is a desperate need to be seen as a standard-bearer for the ultimate good. I had a SLE classmate who would eagerly await internal projections of her personality, in the hopes of her struggle for this 'light' to come forth for all to see. She became almost childlike in a way that juxtaposed her otherwise clearly externally competent temper. For her, there was a search for the idealism in others that would truly confirm her as a benevolent force. ILE on the other hand seems removed from any and all prodding and molding of the essential personality. ILE only gets hurt by functionality of insult, not the contents, which is very 'alien' to me (This is sort of something i also think is characteristic of SEI)
    There is no tragic struggle for the light which confirms existence as in SLE, where things seem to hurt the most, the insecurity stabs like a knife. The wavering of 'humanitarian' emanation is what i think characterises the most negative aspects of alphas, imo - their worldview seems lacking in what makes being human so tragically real... (even though this is a really subjective predicate on that condition)

    Rambling aside: Lack of Fi hurts SLE essentially, whereas lack of Fi seems to hurt ILE functionally. At least ime. Everyone reading this should take it with hundreds upon hundreds grains of salt, it's mostly anecdotal garbage.
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    It's a distinct lack of the weight of existence, to put it in bland terms. A profound emptiness. The same can be said for all people, really, but the theoretical alpha just emphazises a traditional image of that concept. Betas, Gammas and Deltas bear the same disease, just under various veils.
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    It's a distinct lack of the weight of existence, to put it in bland terms. A profound emptiness. The same can be said for all people, really, but the theoretical alpha just emphazises a traditional image of that concept. Betas, Gammas and Deltas bear the same disease, just under various veils.
    Lol. Would you care to elaborate? (I actually am curious how you see this.)
    Gods and men name her Aphrodite...Cyprus-born, because she was born in wave-dashed Cyprus; and lover of smiles, because she emerged out of the genitals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Lol. Would you care to elaborate? (I actually am curious how you see this.)
    What would you like me to elaborate?
    It's more of an intuitive perception, really. It may come out jumbled or with less tact or grace than intended...
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    What would you like me to elaborate?
    It's more of an intuitive perception, really. It may come out jumbled or with less tact or grace than intended...
    The "weight of existence" you mention, and Alphas not being aware of it. And, regarding your worry about causing offense, the Alpha quadra subforum as I understand it is mostly a platform for insulting Alphas (see the Alpha Index thread and count the sheer number of thread titles like "Rant: ESFJ and neediness/spite", "INTjs: the most narcissistic type?" and so on. ) Be as offensive as you please!
    Gods and men name her Aphrodite...Cyprus-born, because she was born in wave-dashed Cyprus; and lover of smiles, because she emerged out of the genitals.

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    @FreelancePoliceman There's at least one Socionics website that has associated Alpha quadra with the Air element. It's all about free-flowing ideas and merriness. Follows it should be least about the weightiness of existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    The "weight of existence" you mention, and Alphas not being aware of it. And, regarding your worry about causing offense, the Alpha quadra subforum as I understand it is mostly a platform for insulting Alphas (see the Alpha Index thread and count the sheer number of thread titles like "Rant: ESFJ and neediness/spite", "INTjs: the most narcissistic type?" and so on. ) Be as offensive as you please!
    sbbds put it succintly and without any excessiveness, i think: free-flowing ideas and a merry disposition leaves one with an impression of an ephemeral attitude, not found in the intensity of Beta quadra or the earnestness of Delta quadra. The element of Air is the least 'human' in a sense, being above the Earth, untouched by Fire and Water - it creates a world removed from the rest of the elements, but always influencing the other world. The touch of Alpha quadra can always be felt, even though they're removed from something more grounded - like an absorbed inventor, forgoing material and bodily needs in his creation of something beyond man, only appearing to change the world, not be a part of it.
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    I hang out with a group of alphas from to time.

    They really like to explore the world more than me and are curious about shit. They like new and interesting things. I'm just more meh about that stuff.

    They stay positive and more upbeat and kind of happy hippie-ish which is actually very psychologically healthy, even if stern jealous gammas call it being foolishly naive. Well it is in a sense but... idk it gives them this charm. Even when talking about serious topics, they have this cheerful babyness about them. Unless its an ESE who has been crushed by life one too many times. A depressed ESE is a very hard thing to cheer up. Don't try to cheer them up really and instead just spoon feed them logical Ti. That's what they need. Not your stupid faggoty cheering up. They need logical Ti. Cold hard str8 man Ti. Not feel good-isms. They already said enough feel good isms themselves to see through the bullshit of their own dementia. They won't buy it. Its like masturbating yourself, albeit very poorly and sadly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I hang out with a group of alphas from to time.

    They really like to explore the world more than me and are curious about shit. They like new and interesting things. I'm just more meh about that stuff.

    They stay positive and more upbeat and kind of happy hippie-ish which is actually very psychologically healthy, even if stern jealous gammas call it being foolishly naive. Well it is in a sense but... idk it gives them this charm. Even when talking about serious topics, they have this cheerful babyness about them. Unless its an ESE who has been crushed by life one too many times. A depressed ESE is a very hard thing to cheer up. Don't try to cheer them up really and instead just spoon feed them logical Ti. That's what they need. Not your stupid faggoty cheering up. They need logical Ti. Cold hard str8 man Ti. Not feel good-isms. They already said enough feel good isms themselves to see through the bullshit of their own dementia. They won't buy it. Its like masturbating yourself, albeit very poorly and sadly.
    Interesting. Whenever my ESE mother is depressed, she quickly develops amnesia and entirely forgets the cause of her depression.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 08-12-2019 at 03:28 PM.
    Gods and men name her Aphrodite...Cyprus-born, because she was born in wave-dashed Cyprus; and lover of smiles, because she emerged out of the genitals.

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    The only ESE whom I know a little bit seems to really, really want to be liked, but won’t come out and say that. But he’s living in secret fear that people won’t like him.

    The many LII’s whom I know all seem to want to be objectively correct in every case. This puts a lot of pressure on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The only ESE whom I know a little bit seems to really, really want to be liked, but won’t come out and say that. But he’s living in secret fear that people won’t like him.

    The many LII’s whom I know all seem to want to be objectively correct in every case. This puts a lot of pressure on them.
    Meanwhile, children are starving in Africa.

    All types can have stupid childish egoistic complexes like these IMO. Sometimes I wonder when transcendence becomes too extra though. I just think "hurry the fuck up and get over it, and then give something back to life and humanity". Then people do so with their natural gifts and I'm like hmmm okay and forget about it for a while again.

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    I think even ethical types want to be 'objectively correct.' Who doesn't want to be objectively correct, when ur truly objectively correct you have mastery over your environment and that makes you feel like you're in control. I don't understand wanting to truly be powerless or anything. I just think with logical types.... its more pronounced in them as their faggot heart is much more subtle and not as obvious. Also ethical types will often be like 'I may not be right but...' even when we arrogantly think we are 110% right as any harsh logical type we are just being more Fe or Fi manipulative hehe.

    idk my LII dad was super good at trivia games tho ... if thats what you meant.

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