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    Has anyone else here encountered at least one too many misandrists? Misandry makes me sick (and so does misogyny, but that gets talked about a lot more.) MRAs and cringy and should be shamed, but that's not what I'd like to talk about. I'm talking about what seems to be an entire "female culture" that thinks you should throw rocks at sensitive little boys who might not even know what being a boy or girl means, who think that, pardon my French, boys' shit stinks while theirs doesn't (I have literally heard this complaint and it was ridiculous,) who don't like it when people listen to music by male artists when there are female artists and ditto for painters, sculptors, novelists, poets, etc. and who also go off and hate tomboys, butch lesbians, and even girls cutting their nails short for being supposed traitors to their sex. Most of these people are either housewives who think their husbands are their slaves, or self-hating men who marry them, and they watch a ton of dumb talk shows and exactly what you'd expect. I've met at least one gay femme like this too though, and I'd imagine some lipstick lesbians but not generally butches are like this. Yes, misogyny is completely on-topic and I don't care if this thread becomes a misogyny thread for a while, but it's definitely not a case of men just oppressing women and then getting what they deserve from bored housewives as recompense. Discuss.

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    I mean, of course. But also, no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    I mean, of course. But also, no.
    That is nowhere near as thorough as my post. I guess MRAs and radical feminists are ruining discussions on sexism for everyone by tainting the words misandry and misogyny.

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    There are plentiful of garbage people in the world.
    "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools." ―Thucydides



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    We're conditioned to be pretty oblivious to misandry. I'm not sure if it's biological or cultural conditioning; perhaps a bit of both? I imagine our survival as a species probably depended on devaluing men to some degree in the past, and modern day forms of misandry are probably a holdover from that mode of thinking.

    The feminists might be right that there's plenty of misogyny coded into our thinking, our culture, etc, but there's definitely a lot of misandry as well, it just tends to be overlooked, unchecked, or tolerated a bit more, although I think that's slowly changing.

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    I used to distrust and generalize about men in conjunction with radical feminist beliefs.
    I don't see myself returning to that, but I find it kinda understandable with my Personal Experience, and statistics about violence, and it seems like a relatively innocent vice - at most, an obnoxious personality quirk - all things considered. My experience with misandry is different. They were mostly women who didn't strongly identify with gender and hated porn and macho shit.

    I will still react different with my body language and eye contact when I'm approached by a man versus a woman at the bus stop so maybe that makes me stil a misandrist instead of a normal person, or maybe it's just the fact that I'm willing to acknowledge it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I used to distrust and generalize about men in conjunction with radical feminist beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I don't see myself returning to that, but I find it kinda understandable with my Personal Experience, and statistics about violence, and it seems like a relatively innocent vice - at most, an obnoxious personality quirk - all things considered. My experience with misandry is different. They were mostly women who didn't strongly identify with gender and hated porn and macho shit.

    I will still react different with my body language and eye contact when I'm approached by a man versus a woman at the bus stop so maybe that makes me stil a misandrist instead of a normal person, or maybe it's just the fact that I'm willing to acknowledge it.
    I think that's really just common sense pragmatism to be a little more nervous around a strange man versus a strange woman. I wouldn't consider that misandry, just survival instincts. I get nervous on a dark city street if I see a male approaching from the opposite direction.

    The misandry I was thinking of is more in how we think of and portray men as stereotypical oafs and dumbshits who need "women's intuition" to see the wrong in their ways, or in the common understanding many have that men are undiscerning fuckbois who will gladly stick it in any warm, moist hole.
    Last edited by soulless ginger mutant; 07-23-2019 at 01:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    The misandry I was thinking of is more in how we portray men as stereotypical oafs and dumbshits who need "women's intuition" to see the wrong in their ways, or in the common understanding many have that men are undiscerning fuckbois who will gladly stick it in any warm, moist hole.
    Oh really, so that's what misandry was about. I thought it was just a ploy for the guys to turn around and say "See? Women rule over us, and we're actually the victims", while they exploit the living shit out of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Oh really, so that's what misandry was about. I thought
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    it was just a ploy for the guys to turn around and say "See? Women rule over us, and we're actually the victims", while they exploit the living shit out of them.


    no, you're repeating a strawman used to dismiss people expressing legitimate concerns like

    -dying earlier than women (on average)
    -being far more likely to die in any war or violent conflict
    -being more likely to be murdered if walking down a street in a bad neighborhood
    -being legally expected to sign up for selective service and subject to prosecution when avoiding selective service enrollment, when the other sex is free to choose whether they want to serve

    -being the last person allowed to board lifeboats
    -being more likely to be assumed an aggressor and rapist after a night of drunken regret sex.
    -being more likely to be assumed the instigator in relationships with mutual domestic violence; even sometimes being assumed by authorities to be the instigator when he is the one at the receiving end of domestic violence (you can thank the Duluth Model for this)
    -having little or no say in deciding to keep or abort a child, not even being allowed to opt out with a "financial abortion" should the mother want to keep a child.

    -comprising 93% of workplace fatalities
    -being more likely to end up homeless
    -receiving longer prison sentences for the same crimes (on average, and with no prior convictions); when on trial for cooperating with women in crime, being more likely to be assumed as and labeled the "ringleader" by prosecuting attorneys, even when evidence suggest equal complicity
    -being more routinely fucked over in family courts (where divorce lawyers often encourage wives to falsely accuse husbands of assault and rape to win the court's sympathies and thus more or full child custody and child support/alimony)
    -being more likely to be dismissed or laughed if a victim of rape, assault, or domestic violence
    -receiving no special grants or loans when attempting to start new businesses
    -being dismissed as patriarchal bigots anytime misandry, issues that affect both sexes at similar rates yet receive more attention for only one sex, or other concerns are brought up
    Last edited by soulless ginger mutant; 07-23-2019 at 01:21 PM.

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    I take it for granted now that "the things that nobody ever talks about" will be a major focus of discussion here, like on Facebook

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    no, you're repeating a strawman used to dismiss people expressing legitimate concerns like
    You just trivialized it yourself by saying that misandry is about men being portrayed as "dumb oafs" in the media.

    Also most of what you listed have little to do with misandry.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    You just trivialized it yourself by saying that misandry is about men being portrayed as "dumb oafs" in the media.

    Also most of what you listed have little to do with misandry.
    I wasn't listing misandry.

    I was saying your statement was a strawman often used to dismiss people and groups who raise the listed concerns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    I wasn't listing misandry.

    I was saying your statement was a strawman often used to dismiss people and groups who raise the listed concerns.
    Well let's face it, that was the first thing that you could come up with when you think "misandry", while you had to look up what was so bad about living your life as a guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Well let's face it, that was the first thing that you could come up with when you think "misandry", while you had to look up what was so bad about living your life as a guy.

    It was the most prominent example of misandry I could think of. And I think that attitude does go hand-in-hand with societal tendency to view men as more disposable. It also is the flip of a tendency to view women as infallible and mattering on the virtue of their identity as female rather than on any individual accomplishments or virtues. Which itself is a sort of benevolent misogyny that turns women into an archetype or a monolith. Some might blame feminism for that view, but I think feminism is really just a natural by-product of that thinking.

    I didn't have to "look up" anything. Please do not pretend to read my mind or know the actions or thoughts behind my post. Do not pretend to know how informed or uninformed I am of gender politics and said issues I listed earlier.


    I'd love to continue this discussion but your dismissive, sanctimonious tone suggests you're not really interested in finding common ground, just grinding axes. It suggests you are more interested in conspiracy theories that align with a specific ideological framework than you are in looking at any real data and evidence that might shatter your one-sided narrative. It suggests a tendency to view the world through a very specific framework, one I think will be irreconcilable with my understanding, so any further discussion will likely be futile and lead us both in circles. Life's too short. Later, tater.
    Last edited by soulless ginger mutant; 07-23-2019 at 02:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    It was the most prominent example of misandry I could think of. And I think that attitude does go hand-in-hand with societal tendency to view men as more disposable. It also is the flip of a tendency to view women as infallible and mattering on the virtue of their identity as female rather than on any individual accomplishments or virtues. Which itself is a sort of benevolent misogyny that turns women into an archetype or a monolith. Some might blame feminism for that view, but I think feminism is really just a natural by-product of that thinking.
    If you're going to claim that men are intelligent, responsible, independent beings, then you can't expect women, or anyone else for that matter, to solve these problems for you.

    You might say, sure, you aren't blaming women, but these "societal misandry" need to be tackled. Sure, but then why all this talk about men needing "women's intuition" to save them from their own idiocy?

    Saying that either gender is the more capable, responsible one is just a way of shirking responsibilities.

    Historically, it was paternalism, that said men were ultimately the responsible ones, and women had no place in taking charge, and men should decide things for women. Now it seems to be shifting towards pseudo-maternalism, that says "Women should be responsible, because we sure as hell aren't taking any responsibilities". At least, in the media that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    If you're going to claim that men are intelligent, responsible, independent beings
    , then you can't expect women, or anyone else for that matter, to solve these problems for you.


    I never claimed the bolded. Nor do I expect anyone to solve said problems. Your conclusion here sounds like rhetorical drivel designed as a sort of "gotcha" though the gotcha only really works if you look at the world in a very black and white manner. It's also moot since I didn't say the set-up to your conclusion in the first place. I'm getting the feeling you're just putting words in my mouth to satisfy whatever urge you feel to utterly destroy the strawman villain you've imagined yourself to be speaking to.

    You might say, sure, you aren't blaming women, but these "societal misandry" need to be tackled. Sure, but then why all this talk about men needing "women's intuition" to save them from their own idiocy?


    I never said they needed "women's intuition", I was merely referring to a very common trope that appears in culture.

    Saying that
    either gender is the more capable, responsible one is just a way of shirking responsibilities


    Yeah, I never said that either. Sounds like some weird hybrid of feminist and traditionalist thinking. If that's what you're getting from my post, then either you've misread or are projecting your own way of thinking onto me.


    Apologies for the way this post split the quotes. I tried to fix it, maybe it's just my browser.
    Last edited by soulless ginger mutant; 07-23-2019 at 03:19 PM.

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    A lot of people treat biological sex as indicating something about people, assumptions, prejudices, but this happens with almost any observable caracteristics ime. Yeah, men get shit for being males, and women get shit for being females. Blonds get shit for being blonds, androgyne people get shit for looking androgyne... it's never ending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    I never claimed the bolded. Nor do I expect anyone to solve said problems. Your conclusion here sounds like rhetorical drivel designed as a sort of "gotcha" though the gotcha only really works if you look at the world in a very black and white manner. It's also moot since I didn't say the set-up to your conclusion in the first place. I'm getting the feeling you're just putting words in my mouth to satisfy whatever urge you feel to utterly destroy the strawman villain you've imagined yourself to be speaking to.


    You claimed that misandry was about portraying men as dumb oafs that need women's intuition. What I said is obviously the logical opposite of that. NOT dumb oafs that NOT need women's intuition.

    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    I never said they needed "women's intuition", I was merely referring to a very common trope that appears in culture.


    Of course. So what is the opposite of that? Come on, you've got to think of these things through by yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    Yeah, I never said that either. Sounds like some weird hybrid of feminist and traditionalist thinking. If that's what you're getting from my post, then either you've misread or are projecting your own way of thinking onto me.


    Those are my personal comments, it doesn't necessarily have to do with what you said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Of course. So what is the opposite of that? Come on, you've got to think of these things through by yourself.

    I see what you're doing, and I think you're being dishonest and arguing in bad faith because you want to look smart on the internet.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

    Not everything is defined in terms of apparent opposites.

    again, you continue with the condescending tone. You might accuse me of similar, but if someone deals it to me, I'm going to reflect it back at them. And you did choose to engage me first.

    I don't think you're interested in a discussion, I think you're focused on trying to own someone on the internet and appear intelligent. Like I said before, life's too short. Later.
    Last edited by soulless ginger mutant; 07-23-2019 at 04:11 PM.

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    So many threads around here centered on false balances; it all reeks of unabated intellectual dishonesty. Just because one side (misogyny) [deservedly] gets more attention, does not mean that the opposing side (misandry) warrants the same scrutiny. This strikes me as petty, tit for tat diversion tactics. Misogyny has had a far greater objective-material-hardened impact (detrimentally so) on human society than anything misandry has wrought.

    Furthermore, oftentimes misandry is a byproduct of misogyny. I'm so tired of all of this patriarchal "pissing in the wind." Don't get mad when socio-culturally pervasive/entrenched notions of male masculinity centered on dominance, hyper-aggression, and a lack of empathy (vs. weak, docile, subservient narratives centered around femininity) come back to bite you in the ass. Within every (unjust and inefficient) system, there are glaring flaws waiting to be exploited. I can't get too riled up when the historically victimized find ways to gain leverage and add more balance to the scales, so to speak. Is it somewhat unfair? Sure, but a lot of shit is unfair. Either change the system (socially, culturally, politically, economically) so that is is equitable for all, or don't complain when the tables turn.

    Lastly, women are human beings, and so, obviously, among their number will always be those naturally predisposed or inclined to bigotry and prejudice. It's just that the overarching patriarchal system often prohibited them from directly voicing their biases. With greater equality and equity, they are finally getting the chance to voice what they really think/feel/believe. I'm not saying it's "right" necessarily, but if men are allowed to be prejudiced, then should't women be afforded that right as well, if "equal treatment" is the objective?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    So many threads around here centered on false balances; it all reeks of unabated intellectual dishonesty. Just because one side (misogyny) [deservedly] gets more attention, does not mean that the opposing side (misandry) warrants the same scrutiny. This strikes me as petty, tit for tat diversion tactics. Misogyny has had a far greater objective-material-hardened impact (detrimentally so) on human society than anything misandry has wrought.

    Furthermore, oftentimes misandry is a byproduct of misogyny. I'm so tired of all of this patriarchal "pissing in the wind." Don't get mad when socio-culturally pervasive/entrenched notions of male masculinity centered on dominance, hyper-aggression, and a lack of empathy (vs. weak, docile, subservient narratives centered around femininity) come back to bite you in the ass. Within every (unjust and inefficient) system, there are glaring flaws waiting to be exploited. I can't get too riled up when the historically victimized find ways to gain leverage and add more balance to the scales, so to speak. Is it somewhat unfair? Sure, but a lot of shit is unfair. Either change the system (socially, culturally, politically, economically) so that is is equitable for all, or don't complain when the tables turn.

    Lastly, women are human beings, and so, obviously, among their number will always be those naturally predisposed or inclined to bigotry and prejudice. It's just that the overarching patriarchal system often prohibited them from directly voicing their biases. With greater equality and equity, they are finally getting the chance to voice what they really think/feel/believe. I'm not saying it's "right" necessarily, but if men are allowed to be prejudiced, then should't women be afforded that right as well, if "equal treatment" is the objective?
    Is this satire?

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    Overall, it is roughly equal between the genders give or take a few IMO. Objectively speaking, one of the genders are probably slightly better off. Also, men and women have distinct advantages and disadvantages that are very different, but in the 21st century it roughly cancels out.

    Women are treated poorly in several middle eastern and African countries. Also, there are a substantial amount of sex slaves that are mostly women that are living terrible lives. Effort needs to be put to helping women in these awful situations rather than worrying about minor differences in 1st world western nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    Is this satire?
    To the stupid and dishonest, perhaps.

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    Well actually, after reading things like Adam's posts, I'd have to say that from women's point of view, men really are clueless dumb oafs that constantly misread their intentions.

    For better or worse, "women's intuition" are a one notch above men's, and it is generally true that women tend to be more emotionally mature than men. So from women's POV, yes, men really do seem like dumb oafs.

    However I don't want to say that this means that men are victims or women are manipulating men.

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    Well yeah I'm sure it exists, just like heterophobia probably exists but the thing is with discrimination against somebody it is more or less based on institutional abuse of a group of people not 'well, the opposing group can be hateful assholes too!' Ya know? Even if many times women (and gay men) were cruel bitches to poor widdle str8 male feelings (and I admit it, I can be an asshole sometimes OK? I'm sorry if I hurt anybody.) - we still clearly didn't and don't have the institutional/governmental power that white str8 men do. I'm speaking generally on a wider scale, of course there is still going to be women in high places of power and men in lower class blue collar jobs of course. But throughout history there is still no women president, women still got the right to vote way later, had less basic rights and economical opportunities... and then black people were once assholeishly thought of their votes only counting as 33% as good and things like that. All of this is institutional abuse and discrimination.

    I don't think PC programs that point this out though are all that helpful either, because its like corny and kind of heartless too in a way. But that's another topic...

    Cruel hateful women don't do anything to help the cause of course - but why should they make all women look bad. We are individuals.

    Now I think power itself corrupts anybody, so I don't think things like if we had a gay or female president, the world would somehow be some nice utopia or anything lol but it does expose the true nature of discrimination when things like this happen. You could perhaps argue there is some sort of biological or nature reason why we want some bossy asshole Te valuing (usually white) str8 man to tell us what to do and how to behave and what to think in life or whatever but yeah.. I hope you get my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Overall, it is roughly equal between the genders give or take a few IMO. Objectively speaking, one of the genders are probably slightly better off. Also, men and women have distinct advantages and disadvantages that are very different, but in the 21st century it roughly cancels out.

    Women are treated poorly in several middle eastern and African countries. Also, there are a substantial amount of sex slaves that are mostly women that are living terrible lives. Effort needs to be put to helping women in these awful situations rather than worrying about minor differences in 1st world western nations.

    We're all in this together. There was always a trade-off. One sex tended to sacrifice themselves for the other and the children, and generally they were granted more authority in the public sphere, as they tended to be the predominant risk takers in the public sphere (it's only fair that authority and responsibility go hand in hand). The other sex tended to sacrifice autonomy in the public sphere, as a tradeoff for more protection and security. To pretend one benefitted unequally at the expense of the other involves a willful ignorance of history and biology, as well as an overly simplistic and one-sided narrative, as both sexes faced and still do face their own unique hurdles, not to mention all of the tiny little micro hurdles individuals face in their lives that gender-based ideologies like masculinism and intersectional feminism often fail to consider. It wasn't an ideal situation for either sex, but it was the best we could do with the societal hardware we were running, which simply couldn't handle more advanced software at the time.

    We're at a point where it's very balanced in the first world, yet people have been so inundated with a pseudo-religious narrative that pits one gender against the other and uses gender-specific language to articulate all of the past and current evils of the world. So when people are that brainwashed by that narrative, it's very easy to dismiss any opposing viewpoint as "patriarchal pissing in the wind" or bigotry or whatever we're calling it these days.
    Last edited by soulless ginger mutant; 07-23-2019 at 05:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    We're all in this together. There was always a trade-off. One sex tended to sacrifice themselves for the other and the children, and generally they were granted more authority in the public sphere, as they tended to be the predominant risk takers in the public sphere (it's only fair that authority and responsibility go hand in hand). The other sex tended to sacrifice autonomy in the public sphere, as a tradeoff for more protection and security. To pretend one benefitted unequally at the expense of the other involves a willful ignorance of history and biology, as well as an overly simplistic and one-sided narrative, as both sexes faced and still do face their own unique hurdles, not to mention all of the tiny little micro hurdles individuals face in their lives that gender-based ideologies like masculinism and intersectional feminism often fail to consider. It wasn't an ideal situation for either sex, but it was the best we could do with the societal hardware we were running, which simply couldn't handle more advanced software at the time.

    We're at a point where it's very balanced in the first world, yet people have been so inundated with a pseudo-religious narrative that pits one gender against the other and uses gender-specific language to articulate all of the past and current evils of the world. So when people are that brainwashed by that narrative, it's very easy to dismiss any opposing viewpoint as "patriarchal pissing in the wind" or bigotry or whatever we're calling it these days.
    The social narrative pushed on us by mass media via corporations and the education system via the government is merely a psy op that has successfully brainwashed the majority of the population. False dichotomies are artificially created to get the proles (~95% of the population) divided and fighting with each other.

    Religion (Christians vs. Muslims), Gender (Patriarchy/Males vs. Females), Class (Middle Class vs. Poor), Sexual Orientation (Cisgender/Straight vs. LGBTQ), Race (Majority whites vs. Minorities) Politics (Left vs. Right). While the real enemy of everyone mentioned above (the top ~0.1% or whatever it is) successfully carry out their plans and everyone else fights with each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Well yeah I'm sure it exists, just like heterophobia probably exists but the thing is with discrimination against somebody it is more or less based on institutional abuse of a group of people not 'well, the opposing group can be hateful assholes too!' Ya know? Even if many times women (and gay men) were cruel bitches to poor widdle str8 male feelings (and I admit it, I can be an asshole sometimes OK? I'm sorry if I hurt anybody.) - we still clearly didn't and don't have the institutional/governmental power that white str8 men do. I'm speaking generally on a wider scale, of course there is still going to be women in high places of power and men in lower class blue collar jobs of course. But throughout history there is still no women president, women still got the right to vote way later, had less basic rights and economical opportunities... and then black people were once assholeishly thought of their votes only counting as 33% as good and things like that. All of this is institutional abuse and discrimination.

    I don't think PC programs that point this out though are all that helpful either, because its like corny and kind of heartless too in a way. But that's another topic...

    Cruel hateful women don't do anything to help the cause of course - but why should they make all women look bad. We are individuals.

    Now I think power itself corrupts anybody, so I don't think things like if we had a gay or female president, the world would somehow be some nice utopia or anything lol but it does expose the true nature of discrimination when things like this happen. You could perhaps argue there is some sort of biological or nature reason why we want some bossy asshole Te valuing (usually white) str8 man to tell us what to do and how to behave and what to think in life or whatever but yeah.. I hope you get my point.
    BandD, that's like saying we're not going to prosecute murders because they're not genocides and exactly what I'm trying to critique. Even if there was just one murder in the world, it should be prosecuted, but as it happens there is a rather large number of murders.

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    Hating men is not productive towards feminist/equal-rights/liberal goals anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    So many threads around here centered on false balances; it all reeks of unabated intellectual dishonesty. Just because one side (misogyny) [deservedly] gets more attention, does not mean that the opposing side (misandry) warrants the same scrutiny. This strikes me as petty, tit for tat diversion tactics. Misogyny has had a far greater objective-material-hardened impact (detrimentally so) on human society than anything misandry has wrought.

    Furthermore, oftentimes misandry is a byproduct of misogyny. I'm so tired of all of this patriarchal "pissing in the wind." Don't get mad when socio-culturally pervasive/entrenched notions of male masculinity centered on dominance, hyper-aggression, and a lack of empathy (vs. weak, docile, subservient narratives centered around femininity) come back to bite you in the ass. Within every (unjust and inefficient) system, there are glaring flaws waiting to be exploited. I can't get too riled up when the historically victimized find ways to gain leverage and add more balance to the scales, so to speak. Is it somewhat unfair? Sure, but a lot of shit is unfair. Either change the system (socially, culturally, politically, economically) so that is is equitable for all, or don't complain when the tables turn.

    Lastly, women are human beings, and so, obviously, among their number will always be those naturally predisposed or inclined to bigotry and prejudice. It's just that the overarching patriarchal system often prohibited them from directly voicing their biases. With greater equality and equity, they are finally getting the chance to voice what they really think/feel/believe. I'm not saying it's "right" necessarily, but if men are allowed to be prejudiced, then should't women be afforded that right as well, if "equal treatment" is the objective?
    I mean if you know any men in your life who have been exploited and not afforded the emotional outlets and other support women in developed societies have for such exploitation, it would move you towards awareness that there is an issue there too, with the more fundamental issue being that humanity could use a little more empathy in general. Having more for one group does not take it away from another; it doesn’t work like that. How about that for a false balance? Rather, it adds to the habit of more compassion in general, benefitting everyone. You’re right that by weight misogyny deserves more attention though ... which is also why misandry getting some attention too won’t affect some kind of balance there.

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    Yes, usually from women who've had bad relationships with men and who blame everyone else but themselves for it, failing to realise that it's their own responsibility who they choose to enter a relationship with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I mean if you know any men in your life who have been exploited and not afforded the emotional outlets and other support women in developed societies have for such exploitation, it would move you towards awareness that there is an issue there too, with the more fundamental issue being that humanity could use a little more empathy in general. Having more for one group does not take it away from another; it doesn’t work like that. How about that for a false balance? Rather, it adds to the habit of more compassion in general, benefitting everyone. You’re right that by weight misogyny deserves more attention though ... which is also why misandry getting some attention too won’t affect some kind of balance there.
    I'm inclined to agree with you, but I'm just highly skeptical that, especially around here, folks raise the issue of "missandry" from a place of having been on the end of intense bigotry and prejudice at the hands of women and/or that they are concerned citizens/advocates just trying to spread awareness about some open secret that demands a much needed spotlight. I don't believe this topic is broached from a place of good faith--it strikes me as whataboutism or bothsidesism, but I could be wrong, of course.

    Having said that, I personally know of several instances where young guys were pressured into sex acts that they regretted but were shamed into doing because "real men always want it" or men who have been unfairly destroyed in divorce/custody proceedings that tend to favor women. I don't think any of that is good/right/fair/OK; but aggro feminists going around gang raping defenseless nerds is not a thing; that's just not a reality, but the reverse is far more likely. I have never ever in my life worried about possible sexual assault. But that's a potentiality that any prudent woman must be aware of. The average male doesn't get the cumulative psychological toll that type of shit takes. Lastly, the same men who blindly uphold, enforce and weaponize patriarchy (via the entrenchment of stereotypical gender roles, hyper-masculinity and aggression) against others usually fail to see that they also fall victim to these same stifling, problematic metrics. Until there is full gender equality, it seems fitting (cosmic justice) that there should be exploitable holes in the system that allow women to gain some leverage and men to be hoist with their own petard.

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    @Alonzo Two very important men in my life were heavily sexually assaulted when they were young and powerless to fight back.

    The first was assaulted by a female family member. He ended up becoming an MRA. Very damaged to this day.

    The second was assaulted by a male stranger. He became a women’s rights activist and is doing comparatively well, but has still told only maybe one or two people after several decades of struggling and distorted relationships.

    So it does happen and the consequences are not great. And the more the negativity comes from women, the more it has a boomerang effect on women’s rights. IME.

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    I was gonna post this book-length edgy post on the topic that I saved in Notepad, but suffice to say, I've noticed too many women use the wrong, very superficial heuristics to judge what type of men in day-to-day professional interactions might actually pose a danger to them, and it's usually the lower-value or "crazy vibes" men that just look weird but otherwise don't have much potential to do damage that get the worst treatment from this. Like if a weak man goes to prison, he's gonna receive sexual violence just like women are afraid of receiving, and even if you're just walking through a bad area, there's always a risk of gangsters or drunks beating the crap out of you for fun or because they don't like your face. In my experience, there's a bit too great a tendency for women to misjudge or stigmatize the types of men who stand to do the least harm to them, and if I'm guessing correctly, it's because they're being mentally lazy and scrambling their heuristics for picking a desirable date, with their heuristics for which men are "safe" to even interact with. I'm not referring to in the dating pool either, I'm saying there are circumstances where the paranoid standoffishness a lot of women exhibit sort of becomes a career danger to a male coworker if he vibes a little funny. It's unfortunate that women are often more hesitant to relinquish their own privilege than men are.



    I suspect this "incel-hate" thing is tied to tradcon women posing as feminists not wanting to have to deal with a world where male disposability is gone, because they prefer being surrounded by chivalrous warriors than by dweebs, but this is just speculation. Yeah, sure, it's your responsibility if you're incapable of getting a date, but there's been a lot of fearmongering going around where "incel == domestic terrorist," and since no incel wants to be outed as a "terrorist," people will expect incels to lie and pose as voluntary celibates. Meaning, every male virgin is an incel, and so if you vibe of traits that might make you a virgin even if you aren't, if you just look a bit outwardly spergie, now people are gonna assume you're a dangerous psychopath who wants to destroy society, rather than just a typical dreg.

    With all the "women are more empathetic and cerebral" essentialism you'll see some feminists cite, you'd think more women would recognize the problems this creates and try to do something to slow down the slander, but those who want to keep benefiting from female fragility and male disposability would be okay with this. If true, it's an unfortunate situation.



    Endnote: anyone who read Elliot Rodger's edgy book would know that he hated sexuality until his roommates bullied him for being a virgin, then he went hellbent on getting laid to increase his social status. It was then that he started killing the women he felt had "denied" him that. If you're a person who wants sex or female company for its own sake, you're a lot less likely to direct your wrath on the object of your desire like he did, as his desires for sex were clearly extrinsic. It would be like if you're in a country that has no oil, so you invade another country to burn their oil instead of just taking it for yourself.

    I'm in no way arguing that female selectivity is too great in dating or whatever, I'm saying it's a mistake to equate male sexual frustration to the apocalypse.
    Please don't virgin-shame. And please don't endorse male disposability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    tradcon women posing as feminists not wanting to have to deal with a world where male disposability is gone
    This is basically the problem with ambition in the US, not feminist posers specifically but ideological posers in general. People mostly just end up impaling themselves on ideologies they don't believe though it can have negative effects on their environment in the meantime. One of my Russian Facebook friends didn't believe postmodernist posers were a thing but I suspect that's just because she was an actual instance of an ivory-tower academic rather than because that doesn't happen in Russia. Knowing how to turn people against themselves is a pretty good pragmatic use for philosophy in the right environment.

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    ''The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.''
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being —
    There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulless ginger mutant View Post
    There was always a trade-off. One sex tended to sacrifice themselves for the other and the children, and generally they were granted more authority in the public sphere, as they tended to be the predominant risk takers in the public sphere (it's only fair that authority and responsibility go hand in hand).
    Pretty sure it's the mothers that sacrifice themselves for others and the children.

    Both men and women can sacrifice themselves, of course, and that seems to be uniquely human for the most part. In general, men seem to sacrifice themselves in a more abstract way, while women tend to sacrifice themselves in a more "down-to-earth" way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    In my experience, there's a bit too great a tendency for women to misjudge or stigmatize the types of men who stand to do the least harm to them, and if I'm guessing correctly, it's because they're being mentally lazy and scrambling their heuristics for picking a desirable date, with their heuristics for which men are "safe" to even interact with. I'm not referring to in the dating pool either, I'm saying there are circumstances where the paranoid standoffishness a lot of women exhibit sort of becomes a career danger to a male coworker if he vibes a little funny. It's unfortunate that women are often more hesitant to relinquish their own privilege than men are.

    I suspect this "incel-hate" thing is tied to tradcon women posing as feminists not wanting to have to deal with a world where male disposability is gone, because they prefer being surrounded by chivalrous warriors than by dweebs, but this is just speculation. Yeah, sure, it's your responsibility if you're incapable of getting a date, but there's been a lot of fearmongering going around where "incel == domestic terrorist," and since no incel wants to be outed as a "terrorist," people will expect incels to lie and pose as voluntary celibates. Meaning, every male virgin is an incel, and so if you vibe of traits that might make you a virgin even if you aren't, if you just look a bit outwardly spergie, now people are gonna assume you're a dangerous psychopath who wants to destroy society, rather than just a typical dreg.

    With all the "women are more empathetic and cerebral" essentialism you'll see some feminists cite, you'd think more women would recognize the problems this creates and try to do something to slow down the slander, but those who want to keep benefiting from female fragility and male disposability would be okay with this. If true, it's an unfortunate situation.
    You're talking about the kind of people that literally want to rape and kill them, at least online. And then you go on about "Woah! You should try being nice to them. Have a little empathy". I think that's a tall order to make. They do have the right to be dismissive towards the "incels". It's only legitimate self-defense.

    Well look, consciously or unconsciously, women are expected more "empathy" and "understanding". This is a shitty manipulativeness, and unfortunately it tend to work. If men get mad, it is the women's fault, and if there are incels and MRAs killing women, then it is also women's fault. Total and utter bullshit.

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    Not pressuring men to have sex is a good idea even if insane men are going to be insane anyways.

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    objectively, women have been tamed/shamed/attacked for millennia because of their "weakness"; it is cruel and not fair, especially if to do so are the "stronger" men. but in a proper balance of things it's the "stronger" party that gets what they can handle better. if you want power, brace yourself. and women have a millennial history of segregation to draw upon.. "because weakness is a great thing, and strength is nothing".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Now I think power itself corrupts anybody, so I don't think things like if we had a gay or female president, the world would somehow be some nice utopia or anything lol but it does expose the true nature of discrimination when things like this happen. You could perhaps argue there is some sort of biological or nature reason why we want some bossy asshole Te valuing (usually white) str8 man to tell us what to do and how to behave and what to think in life or whatever but yeah.. I hope you get my point.
    I think men tend toward more vertical, hierarchical relations, while women tend toward more horizontal, "egalitarian" relations. Of course there are individual differences and this doesn't necessarily have to do with males or females, but it might have something to do with testosterone and oxytocin.

    But both have their pros and cons. Pros are hierarchical structures create "chains of command" that get things done and create personal responsibility at the top, while horizontal structures create more peaceful cooperation. Cons are hierarchical structure creates corruption, arbitrariness and abuse of power, while horizontal structures create situations where everybody is equally responsible, and hence nobody is responsible for anything and issues get muddled and swept under the rug.

    The negative effects of hierarchical structure is artificially mitigated by things like the law and democracy (criticisms of authority). I'm not really sure how the negative effects of horizontal structures can be mitigated. Maybe someone will find a way that can combine both that can get the best of both worlds.

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