Nick Cave

[Not A Communist Shill]

What type is this man?

[olduser]

i think eie, or iei.

[Ezra]

Yes, I'd go for ENFj too, definitely.

[olduser]

his music and look remind me a lot of the guy i am playing music with lately. unkempt, ugly looking guy writing ballads about murdering women and secret forest paths. I'm really into this music project-- we have 5 great songs. 1 song is a haunting, otherworldly instrumental with a tape sample playing that features real people talking about reconnecting with the dead in some labratory experiment. It is fucking terrifying. Another starts off as a tape sample taken from a failed rocket launch with all sorts of people screaming and crying and then we play a really discordant crashing mess into a well put together rocker about god knows what. We have a song about going down to the rivers that switches in the middle of the song to a rocking waltz 3/4 time. All in all a few great songs. I even throw in a super awesome nickelback drumfill when the songs need it.

[astralsilky]

Let's say he's NOT an ENFj after all.

Then what would you people guess?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

INFp

[Amber]

Beta NF with a screw loose would be the first choice, E4w5 sp/sx

He was one of the basic obsessions of a LII-Ti high school ex of mine who had the same stack. I received disks on my birthday for this reason and got quite familiar with his music. It's probably not a coincidence that at some point after we parted ways that guy used to talk to trees on the street and I heard he had to spend some time hospitalized.

[lynn]

in interviews he comes across as Fe polr to me ... so, ... SLI sp/sx?

[Delilah]

Musician, screenwriter, front man of Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, by some classified as gothic. Studied art; really spiritually themed lyrics; also an actor; has a strong dominating stage presence;

What's his type?



Here's a song:


Lyrics:
""Into My Arms"

I don't believe in an interventionist God
But I know, darling, that you do
But if I did I would kneel down and ask Him
Not to intervene when it came to you
Not to touch a hair on your head
To leave you as you are
And if He felt He had to direct you
Then direct you into my arms

Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms

And I don't believe in the existence of angels
But looking at you I wonder if that's true
But if I did I would summon them together
And ask them to watch over you
To each burn a candle for you
To make bright and clear your path
And to walk, like Christ, in grace and love
And guide you into my arms

Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms

But I believe in love
And I know that you do too
And I believe in some kind of path
That we can walk down, me and you
So keep your candles burning
And make her journey bright and pure
That she will keep returning
Always and evermore

Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms "

[Delilah]

I looked at some more lyrics, dark and also very strongly spiritually themed (talk of the sandman etc) and I'd go ahead and make LII as type suggestion for the time being

[Jake]

I'd agree with LII. I was also thinking maybe an Se-Creative type, ESI or LSI.

I'll have to look into him more.

[lynn]

IEE? sx/sp

[Shining]

Agreed with LII

[Aylen]

ILI 548 sx/sp or sp/sx.

Too dark, violent and heavy for LII, imo.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/m...cave.html?_r=0

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...ocks-backpages

[darya]

Ni-dom just going by lyrics....ILI would be my guess - Murder Ballads <3

[Olimpia]

To me, he actually seems to be most likely an ESI.
Reminds me of Trent Reznor, who I suspected could be ILI, but after interviews and such it became apparent to me he was Type 4 ESI, Truth Teller tritype (486).

That tritype is pretty aggressive, but also emotionally deep and "intuitive", so it makes sense those guys easily come across as ILI.

But when it comes down to it, I cannot "see" any Ni lead or Te Creative signs.
Gamma Introvert is rather obvious to me, so ESI is a much better fit.

[Anglas]

ni eyes

[Aylen]

To me, he actually seems to be most likely an ESI.
Reminds me of Trent Reznor, who I suspected could be ILI, but after interviews and such it became apparent to me he was Type 4 ESI, Truth Teller tritype (486).

That tritype is pretty aggressive, but also emotionally deep and "intuitive", so it makes sense those guys easily come across as ILI.

But when it comes down to it, I cannot "see" any Ni lead or Te Creative signs.
Gamma Introvert is rather obvious to me, so ESI is a much better fit.

I saw this coming so I had my question ready. To keep it easy for you I only copied the lead function descriptions for both ILI and ESI. How is it that you see him as ESI>ILI? I won't even ask how he is supposed to be Ne polr.

Introverted Ethics (Fi, )

ESIs are primarily attuned to the world of their own inner emotional states and emotional reactions to others. They may commonly be introspective and constantly in a state of trying to sort out the way they really feel. ESIs value their own sense of fidelity and life stability, and they may always try to treat others with fairness and decency. However, they often tend to be highly reliant on their attitudes towards others in directing their path through life, which can sometimes lead them down circuitous and complicated pathways and interfere with their moral rectitude.For ESIs, connections with others mark a predominant and over-arching life focus. Though close contacts for ESIs often tend to be sparse, when ESIs find a degree of mutual respect towards others, they can be deeply empathetic, compassionate, and loyal. They may emphasize close connections and mutual understanding with others above all other things.

ESIs' attitudes towards others are commonly characterized by skepticism and distrust, and their overall demeanor may be private, closed, uncommunicative, and individualistic. They may feel as though they can see into the motivations and character of others, and sometimes are instinctively be quick to judge others harshly. Similarly, they may also have difficulty forgiving others and often react coldly to those with past transgressions, or who they see as immoral or characterologically reprehensible. They may by nature adopt a standoffish, confrontational attitude in lieu of a conciliatory one, which may in fact only serve to aggravate their emotional conflagrations. At the same time, however, they may see their judgmentalism as hypocritical and strive to treat others with reciprocity and fairness rather than preemptive judgments. In this way, their behavior can be an internal conflict, oscillating between the predominance of a curtain of friendliness and a core of distrust. Most commonly, ESIs hold an air of both amicable receptiveness, but also one of penetralia and unapproachability.

Many ESIs are inclined to see themselves as morally immaculate, and to behave as such whenever they can. They may pride themselves on their emotional sincerity, and when dealing with individuals they respect, they typically try to work out clashes through honest and forthright discussion. However, their sense of principled candor is sometimes marred by the conflicting emotions they experience.ESIs can also be rather traditional and conservative in their life outlook. They may tend to see others who interfere with the stability of their lifestyle as untrustworthy and flighty.

Introverted Intuition (Ni, )

Introverted intuition in ILIs is predominantly characterized by well developed imaginative abilities and mental wanderings. ILI often spend a great deal of time simply thinking and may spend excessive amounts of time in their mind. Most ILIs somehow manage to spend most of their time in their minds regardless of the responsibilities with which they are burdened. This mental focus can be manifest by reflecting on scenarios, on pondering bodies of information, and assorted concepts of interest. They may be prone to excessive day dreaming, in creation of intricate inner worlds or universes, or in mentally replaying elements of their own personal experience. ILIs may even have novelistic tendencies where they create intricate plots, characters, and places, though many ILIs may be generally unmotivated to display such creativity. However, ILIs are not always inclined to share their imaginative tendencies or thoughts with others.

The mind of an ILI is an oasis of sorts where knowledge is treated as a toy or even a vehicle that allows them to visit complex mental landscapes that are shaped and continually revised by new information. Nonetheless, an ILI is likely to find the process of accumulating new information tiresome and requiring too much of their energy; consequently, new information is often accumulated and updated in a rather lethargic, periodic, and occasionally incomplete fashion.

ILIs are often stereotypically represented as reclusive scholars, philosophers, scientists, artists, seers, and sages. The ILI, with their often unusual perceptions, may come across as unreachable, esoteric eccentrics. Because ILIs are confident about analyzing the implications of the knowledge that they have gathered, ILIs often appear perceptive, especially in fields of interest, and commonly tend to view the ideas of others with skepticism and scrutiny. ILIs may tend perceive others' intellectual contributions as deeply misguided or limited in scope, and may hold the viewpoint that many people do not know what they're talking about on a particular topic of interest.

ILIs predict inevitable disaster not altogether infrequently. This type of fatalism is spurned by their ability to see the negative in anything, which has its roots in the ILI's general dislike of expressing or reinforcing positive emotions. To an ILI, it may be easier to predict pessimistic results in order to avoid an unpleasant emotional reaction. Likewise, the ILI's sense of general self doubt leads him to be very conservative in his general outlook; why unnecessarily subject oneself to the uncertainty of possible disappointment?

ILIs typically exhibit a general detachment from day-to-day affairs. While an ILI might devote a great deal of time to his inner thoughts, very little attention is likely to be paid to such tasks as household maintenance or cleanliness, which the ILI sees as trivial matters not deserving of his time or effort.

ILIs can, in certain situations, act very tentatively. In many situations they are inclined to hesitate prior to taking any action or making important decisions. They may commonly be pervasively plagued by gnawing doubts on any topic that they contemplate. They may also prefer to observe and gather an understanding of a situation rather than actively participate. The ILI's restraint complements the hyperactivity of his dual, the SEE.

His biggest fear is losing his memory. Not his relationships. I have heard other ILI express the same fear. Don't blame that on him having a 6 fix.

[golden]

Haven't listened to him in a long time but my first thought upon seeing his name was Ni, gamma.

[Singu]

I'm not sure about the memory thing, but maybe these quotes are more ILI:

"Most of the time, feelings just seem to get in the way. They're a luxury for the idle, a bourgeois concept. Feelings are overrated."

"I'm a kind of hard-wired pessimist. I can't help but see the world in a certain kind of way."

[Aylen]

"Nick Cave: One More Time With Feeling, Skeleton Tree and the power and language of grief

The subject matter is heavy – the death of a child – but the results are divine in an album that emerges from struggle to something like spiritual glory."

In One More Time With Feeling, Cave tells a distantly intense, fable-like set of stories in the third person about a man dealing with grief, before asking – with just a hint of anger as well as devastation – “When did I become an object of pity?”

As he observes, riffing on black holes that can swallow our universe entire: “It’s the invisible things that have so much mass.”

In short, the members of the Bad Seeds play with tremendous intuition and innovation around Cave’s often dense and dreamlike spiels. Much has been made of Cave’s abandonment of conventional narrative in his approach to lyrics over the past decade, a notion he discusses again in One More Time With Feeling: “I don’t actually believe that is what life is like, that there is a pleasing narrative.” But Skeleton Tree is an album saturated in words and phrases that startle the imagination as Cave leans evermore towards the improvised and the unedited to open up his writing and tap the unconscious.

The general understanding is that Cave wrote these songs before Arthur’s death, and had already been working on demos with Ellis to give them shape. Cave is nonetheless open that “something about Arthur” infuses everything that occurs on Skeleton Tree.

When he says, “I think I’m losing my voice,” the confession comes across as an existential trauma rather than concern about his technical ability. There is a feeling that the death of his son has near-destroyed him, yet the collective achievement of the work shows he has never shone stronger. On the love song I Need You, the lyrical focus barely gives pause for a breath to be taken. Yet Cave’s dry, thinned-out voice gives the song the quality of a bluegrass spiritual, a lesson he may have absorbed from working with the great Ralph Stanley on the Lawless soundtrack.


Elsewhere his distinctive baritone trembles with another quality visibly apparent in the film: he is growing older. “What happened to my face?” Cave laments a little comically as he stares into a mirror in One More Time With Feeling. He also speaks of diminishing, decaying, of everything he does becoming harder to achieve, as if maybe he just can’t do this any more. Yet that only brings us closer to his art and his performance.

There’s much talk of Bick’s superstitious concerns about Cave’s artistry and the premonitions that underlie his lyrics; a “foretelling” in the music of what was to come. You can actually take this as far back as albums such as The Firstborn Is Dead and his later, greatly undervalued US tour-diary-come-“epic poem”, The Sick Bag Song. The latter was driven by an absurdist and urgent need to communicate with Bick as Cave obsessed about episodes on the road that echoed his childhood jump off a railway bridge in Wangaratta, Victoria – an act that gave mythical birth to his artistic nature.

It’s not simply a spooky matter of the latest album containing portents; it’s a sense that Cave’s whole career has reached for – and received – a level of greatness on the scale of Greek tragedy. Hence the wisdom and weight in I Need You: “Nothing really matters when the one you love is gone.”

During One More Time With Feeling, Cave says, “I lost belief in myself … me and Susie looked away for a terrible second and fucked up.” He forms a fist and moves his other hand slowly outwards, then slaps back against it. “Time is elastic. We can go away from the event but at some point the elastic snaps and we always come back to it.”

A great struggle is documented in Skeleton Tree. By the time the final title track releases us to something like spiritual glory, it would be a hard heart indeed that did not feel like shedding a tear – and yet also feel enriched and even enlarged by what it had experienced. Nick Cave is a man standing in a doorway between two worlds, this one and the next, whatever that may be. He stands there reaching back to reassure his wife and son, while reaching out to another son beyond him.

This album is not, as Cave might fear, the realisation of a prophetic curse or artistic hubris that he’d gladly forsake to bring his son back. It’s the expression of a love that even in pain is not vanquished, and that is defined here over and again, in darkness and light, in its very essence, by the most powerful of caresses goodbye.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...guage-of-grief

[Aylen]

I'm not sure about the memory thing, but maybe these quotes are more ILI:

"Most of the time, feelings just seem to get in the way. They're a luxury for the idle, a bourgeois concept. Feelings are overrated."

"I'm a kind of hard-wired pessimist. I can't help but see the world in a certain kind of way."

I have a strong draw to Nick Cave's work. Ni is obvious. These are not socionics descriptions below but I like them.

NiTe’s have a very deep internal world. They are extremely intuitive and can often see all the possibilities for how a particular situation will play out. They are then able to analyze all the options and refine them down until they arrive at what they feel is the most likely one. They may even be able to use this to predict the future in a sense.

Some NiTe’s are so involved in their internal world that their version of the world differs from what most people would define as reality. This can foster a powerful imagination which lets them come up with completely novel ideas because they simply aren’t tied to thinking about things in terms of the normal limits others consider. They may even end up accomplishing things others would deem impossible. However, this imagination also has the ability to be detrimental if they become isolated from input. They need feedback from others to help determine when their ideas are genius, and when they are just a little too far out there.

When NiTe’s are younger, they don’t have enough past experience in various areas of life to pull from in order to know which reactions would be appropriate in social and relational settings. They might say something and get a negative response, but while they may be aware that it didn’t go over well, they can struggle if they don’t know exactly what they should replace the old behaviour with. Their safest bet is often to try a small tweak to see if it makes a difference, rather than trying an entirely new approach.

Although some people may simply try to step into the other person’s shoes to handle this, Ni and Fi as a pair can create an extremely subjective perspective. This can also mean that NiTe’s may offend people unintentionally at times.

NiTe’s are quite private and generally don’t show their real feelings often and are often accused of not having much empathy or emotion because of their lower levels of expression. When they do get emotional, it’s usually because they’re talking about something that matters to them deeply. It can be useful for them to take note of the times they get emotional or passionate about something, as these can be clues to their values and core mission in life.

They also tend to need to talk through their thoughts or at least externalize them by writing them out to feel like they’re fully fleshed out. Generally the thoughts in their head exist in a very abstract form, so talking them through or writing them down can help to solidify them. They may find it frustrating at times if people assume that the thoughts they’re sharing are fully formed and decided on, when often they’re just talking to work out a thought and they haven’t quite arrived at a conclusion yet.


NiTe’s internal world has a certain intensity to it that they may feel is lost once it’s brought out through verbal communication. They tend to be more at ease communicating through images, sound, written word, or some other form of expression where they are able to explore the full depth of an idea and expand on it before presenting it to public scrutiny. They are also usually more interested in finding the meaning behind things than taking them at face value, which means they may take some time to process new opportunities or unusual circumstances they find themselves in.

[Delilah]

He was a favorite of mine for a long time so i'm glad there's some discussion around him; some of his performances are really good, like some of his Mercy Seat live ones where he seems to be delivering a sermon lol.

Maybe some Ni/Se (resolute) versus Ne/Si discussions would be useful since i'd been going only Ti-Fe and Te - Fi so far;

I'd assumed the really strong gothic sort of spirituality was Ti;
@tempest: LSI crossed my mind as a possibility later upon posting

[huiheiwufhawriuhg]

A musician that has not been typed as beta yet I guess all the stereotype IEI typings are currently sold out

[Delilah]

I'd looked at a few more things on him, but i'd say maybe LII-Ti is a good fit for him and I'd not found anything to tilt the scale away from Ne-Si yet; The quotes on him speaking on feelings simply indicate thinking type imo;


Here's a decent one:
Higgs Boson Blues"

Can't remember anything at all
Flame trees line the streets
Can't remember anything at all
But I'm driving my car down to Geneva

I've been sitting in my basement patio
Aye, it was hot
Up above, girls walk past, the roses all in bloom
Have you ever heard about the Higgs Boson blues
I'm goin' down to Geneva baby, gonna teach it to you

Who cares, who cares what the future brings?
Black road long and I drove and drove
I came upon a crossroad
The night was hot and black
I see Robert Johnson,
With a ten dollar guitar strapped to his back,
Lookin' for a tune

Well here comes Lucifer,
With his canon law,
And a hundred black babies runnin' from his genocidal jaw
He got the real killer groove
Robert Johnson and the devil man
Don't know who's gonna rip off who

Driving my car, flame trees on fire
Sitting and singin' the Higgs Boson blues,
I'm tired, I'm lookin' for a spot to drop
All the clocks have stopped in Memphis now
In the Lorraine Motel, it's hot, it's hot
That's why they call it the Hot Spot
I take a room with a view
Hear a man preaching in a language that's completely new, yea
Making the hot cocks in the flophouse bleed
While the cleaning ladies sob into their mops
And a bellhop hops and bops
A shot rings out to a spiritual groove
Everybody bleeding to that Higgs Boson Blues

If I die tonight, bury me
In my favorite yellow patent leather shoes
With a mummified cat and a cone-like hat
That the caliphate forced on the Jews
Can you feel my heartbeat?
Can you feel my heartbeat?

Hannah Montana does the African Savannah
As the simulated rainy season begins
She curses the queue at the Zulus
And moves on to Amazonia
And cries with the dolphins
Mama ate the pygmy
The pygmy ate the monkey
The monkey has a gift that he is sending back to you
Look here comes the missionary
With his smallpox and flu
He's saving them savages
With his Higgs Boson Blues
I'm driving my car down to Geneva
I'm driving my car down to Geneva

Oh let the damn day break
The rainy days always make me sad
Miley Cyrus floats in a swimming pool in Toluca Lake
And you're the best girl I've ever had
Can't remember anything at all

[Delilah]

I was thinking about his music (again ) today:




Take a little walk to the edge of town
and go across the tracks
Where the viaduct looms,
like a bird of doom
As it shifts and cracks
Where secrets lie in the border fires,
in the humming wires
Hey man, you know
you're never coming back
Past the square, past the bridge,
past the mills, past the stacks
On a gathering storm comes
a tall handsome man
in a dusty black coat with
a red right hand

He'll wrap you in his arms,
tell you that you've been a good boy
He'll rekindle all the dreams
it took you a lifetime to destroy
He'll reach deep into the hole,
heal your shrinking soul,
but there won't be a single thing
that you can do
He's a god, he's a man,
he's a ghost, he's a guru
They're whispering his name
through this disappearing land
But hidden in his coat
is a red right hand

You don't have no money?
He'll get you some
You don't have no car?
He'll get you one
You don't have no self-respect,
you feel like an insect
Well don't you worry buddy,
'cause here he comes
Through the ghettos and the barrio
and the bowery and the slum
A shadow is cast wherever he stands
Stacks of green paper in his
red right hand

You'll see him in your nightmares,
you'll see him in your dreams
He'll appear out of nowhere but
he ain't what he seems
You'll see him in your head,
on the TV screen
And hey buddy, I'm warning
you to turn it off
He's a ghost, he's a god,
he's a man, he's a guru
You're one microscopic cog
in his catastrophic plan
Designed and directed by
his red right hand

(and the extra: )

[lynn]

still think that he's IEEish

[Delilah]

some version of lyrics:

"I thought I'd take a walk today
It's a mistake I sometimes make
My kids lay asleep in bed
My wife lay wide-awake
I kissed her softly on the brow
I tried not to make a sound
But with stony eyes she looked at me
And gently squeezed my hand
Call it a premonition, call it a crazy vision
Call it intuition, something learned from mother
But when she looked up at me, I could clearly see
The Sword of Damocles hanging directly above her
Oh Lord Oh my Lord
Oh Lord
How have I offended thee?
Wrap your tender arms around me
Oh Lord Oh Lord
Oh My Lord

[Verse 2]
They called at me through the fence
They were not making any sense
They claimed that I had lost the plot
Kept saying that I was not
The man I used to be
They held their babes aloft
Threw marsh mellows at the Security
And said that I`d grown soft
Call it intuition, call it a creeping suspicion
But their words of derision meant they hardly knew me
For even I could see in the way they looked at me
The Spear of Destiny sticking right through me
Oh Lord Oh my lord
Oh Lord
How have I offended thee?
Wrap your tender arms round me
Oh Lord Oh lord
Oh My Lord

Now I`m at the hairdressers
People watch me as they move past
A guy wearing plastic antlers
Presses his bum against the glass
Now I`m down on my hands and knees
And it`s so fucking hot!
Someone cries, "What are you looking for?"
I scream, "The plot, the plot!"
I grab my telephone, I call my wife at home
She screams, "Leave us alone!" I say, "Hey, it`s only me"
The hairdresser with his scissors, he holds up the mirror
I look back and shiver; I can`t even believe what I can see

[Verse 4]
Be mindful of the prayers you send
Pray hard but pray with care
For the tears that you are crying now
Are just your answered prayers
The ladders of life that we scale merrily
Move mysteriously around
So that when you think you`re climbing up, man
In fact you`re climbing down
Into the hollows of glamour, where with spikes and hammer
With telescopic camera, they chose to turn the screw
Oh I hate them, Ma! Oh I hate them, Pa!
Oh I hate them all for what they went and done to you
Oh Lord Oh my Lord
Oh Lord
How have I offended thee?
Wrap your tender arms round me
Oh Lord Oh Lord
Oh My Lord"

[user123]

ILI?

[khcs]

Nick Cave - ENFJ - Hamlet ?