Results 1 to 39 of 39

Thread: Should Quadra Values Be Taken Seriously?

  1. #1
    To Stand As The Oak Luminous Lynx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Wilderness
    TIM
    EIE-Ni
    Posts
    300
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Should Quadra Values Be Taken Seriously?

    Pretend, for a moment, that I am a newcomer, or an outsider. Set aside your own personal thoughts about how you relate to the Quadra Values Socionics literature speaks of. Now, let us discuss our observations of others in this regard.

    It has been a full year since I joined this forum. I have seen those who list themselves as Alpha call for limitations on free speech (sufficed the speech in question is deemed offensive). I have seen Betas shit on tribalism, tradition, and strongly profess and encourage individualism. I have seen and personally know Gammas who do not think that an excess of personal freedom and the acquisition of material wealth and financial opportunity are values to live by, and so forth. Now, obviously some of these individuals may be mistyped, but is it truly that simple?

    Given that each Quadra member relates to one another insofar as they share the same four valued functions, I appreciate the attempt to rationalize a coherent general worldview for a given Quadra. It's certainly an interesting concept, but do these conjectures truly assist in the confirmation of typing, or do they add bells and whistles where they are not needed, effectively muddying the waters?

    Share your own observations of instances where supposed Quadra Values are contradicted, or simply argue for the substantive worth and application of Quadra Values. To what extent do they apply at the individual level? Does the individual always conform to their respective Quadra Values? Finally, if you feel it is necessary, in what ways do you personally relate and/or depart from your own respective Quadra Values?

    Additionally, what other elements of Socionics theory would you argue for as unreliable and why?
    Last edited by Luminous Lynx; 07-14-2019 at 05:56 AM.
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    My Typing Thread

    Model A: EIE-Ni2
    -
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So


  2. #2

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,396
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    No.

    You know, people go on about "Oh, but if you remove all these other factors like upbringings, social influences, etc, then it's related". But if you remove all those factors, then the situation would be completely different, and we'd be talking about completely different things.

    If it's affected by things like upbringing, then it's 100% caused by upbringing, and 0% by anything else. The fact is that it cannot exist without the upbringing.

  3. #3
    To Stand As The Oak Luminous Lynx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Wilderness
    TIM
    EIE-Ni
    Posts
    300
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    No.

    You know, people go on about "Oh, but if you remove all these other factors like upbringings, social influences, etc, then it's related". But if you remove all those factors, then the situation would be completely different, and we'd be talking about completely different things.

    If it's affected by things like upbringing, then it's 100% caused by upbringing, and 0% by anything else. The fact is that it cannot exist without the upbringing.
    I see. Do you see people as more or less entirely socially constructed? Do you believe whatever can be said to be 'personality' is entirely developed during the formative years? Do you place any stock in heredity or innate characteristics? If you've the time or interest, any specifics you could offer would be appreciated.
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    My Typing Thread

    Model A: EIE-Ni2
    -
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So


  4. #4

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,396
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    I see. Do you see people as more or less entirely socially constructed? Do you believe whatever can be said to be 'personality' is entirely developed during the formative years? Do you place any stock in heredity or innate characteristics? If you've the time or interest, any specifics you could offer would be appreciated.
    I see the environment as a place for correcting errors. Errors can be corrected by even your own self or your cognition, but so can the environment.

    Your cognition makes assumptions about the world, and if it's wrong then it gets corrected. That's how you learn anything. You imitate something your parent says, and if it's wrong, then you get corrected by your parent. You go to school and you learn something, and then you make an assumption that it's correct. If it's wrong, then you get the wrong answer and that gets corrected.

    Some people may stubbornly resist correcting errors for a very long time, but that would unwise.

    So we have in-born assumptions about the world, like how we see the world or what we hear. But even those are assumptions and they could be wrong.

    If people supposedly have in-born views like "Democratic" or "Aristocratic", then it would mean that those people could never correct their own errors. And they must be wrong, because everybody is eventually wrong.

  5. #5
    Alonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    470
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If I’m truly, 100% honest with myself, then I must admit that in the back of my head, there’s this voice that often whispers (and sometimes yells), “fuck em all, get the money.”

    Despite having been called a far leftist “Marxist” several times on this board, I’ve never actually stated my political affiliation/orientation and economic worldview > And I’m neither a Communist nor a “Far leftist.” Deep in my bones, I’m hardcore Capitalist; that is my instinct.

    BUT, because of two factors, I don’t succumb to that instinct >

    1.) Seeing the havoc that unfettered/unhinged Capitalism has directly/indirectly wrought on some of the communities I belong to and specific individuals I care for and want to protect, and especially the most disenfranchised among them, my Fi value system was influenced to push back on that kind of corrupting greed.

    2.) I primarily grew up within a Delta/Alpha leaning society that favors a mixed economic model combining aspects of both capitalism and socialism and because of witnessing firsthand how well that has worked out for us (I’m a ‘Green’ Entrepreneur FFS) financially and ethically, I’m inclined to support a system and worldview situated somewhere between Gamma and Delta Quadra.

    But again, were I to be completely honest, “MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY...MONEY!" is always operating somewhere in my consciousness. lol

  6. #6
    Kill4Me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    TIM
    SLE-Ti 8w7 so/sp
    Posts
    2,317
    Mentioned
    228 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quadra values is a mythology. It should not be taken seriously as it just results from a huge blindspot to several enneagram triads. Alpha was conflated to the 2-7-9 Positive Reframer Triad, Beta was conflated to the 4-6-8 Reactive Triad, Delta was conflated to the 1-2-6 compliant triad and Gamma was conflated to the 1-3-5 Competency Triad. However, this conflation is merely theoretical. It was the malady of trying to account for everything through the filter of a one typology closed universe. In reality, ILEs stand in the Reactive Triad, Competency Types in Beta, Compliant types in Gamma, on and on.

    https://stackemup.livejournal.com/
    https://www.pinterest.com/socionics/

  7. #7
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Second story
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,734
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Speaking for my own irl observations over a decade:

    I’ve known a lot of alphas who cling together in a tight social clique, though a couple have broken away from it totally. I also know some who are fairly disconnected.

    I’ve known a lot of betas who do their own thing and distrust ideologies and movements. I know one who wrote a whole book against an academic ideology / dynamic, yet is now kind of involved in that very ideology. The upshot: it’s complicated.

    Most gammas I know are not about the pursuit of money per se, and certainly not in any greedy way. Some are anti-system, anti-corporate. I know one who is a longtime serious proselytizer for basic income.

    I know a lot of Deltas and probably understand them the least, but they have often been tribalistic as I came to know them through a cultic environment. I also know Deltas who keep mainly to themselves.

    What I conclude from this is that the things you, Lynx, and others ascribe to the quadras may indeed loosely be those quadras’ domains, but not in any simple, flag-waving manner. There’s plenty of hypocrisy, on the unconscious side (such as the pursuit of individualism through a stultifying and hypocritical group dynamic). There are also people who understand something well enough to see through it, on the more conscious side, even if their fates remain tied to the thing they’ve eschewed.
    Last edited by golden; 07-14-2019 at 02:53 PM.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

  8. #8
    mfckrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    Share your own observations of instances where supposed Quadra Values are contradicted, or simply argue for the substantive worth and application of Quadra Values. To what extent do they apply at the individual level? Does the individual always conform to their respective Quadra Values? Finally, if you feel it is necessary, in what ways do you personally relate and/or depart from your own respective Quadra Values?

    Additionally, what other elements of Socionics theory would you argue for as unreliable and why?
    'Quadra values' don't mean anything more than their respective IE pairs. Deriving particular socionormative values from those was always going to be a mistake.

    There can be stylistic differences vis-a-vis IE values in how one pursues/lives their normative values. But IEs in of themselves don't determine what those values will be.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    10,559
    Mentioned
    954 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    should the reality be taken seriously?

    when you understand the reality correctly - you may understand the use of the knowledge
    when you are in delusions alike about your type as EIE - then you more may notice the the lack of use of what you think about the reality
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  10. #10
    aka Feathers, Penny Dreadful Baboooshka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Behind your tonsils
    TIM
    IEI 4 so/sx strigoi
    Posts
    806
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Lynx, stop whining. A prohibition on blatant anti-semitism is a more than reasonable limitation of free speech. This is unrelated to quadra values. Race-hatred has no place in a civilized world, “tolerant” or not.
    I don't think this is alluding to the turmoil you've seen on the forum for the past few days, EfPee. The thread just has the misfortune of suffering from really bad timing.

    To the OP, there's sadly nothing much I can say about quadra values except what's already been covered by Golden. I think she conveyed it best.
    But to add to the "what other parts of socionics theory do you consider unreliable?" question: Duality is overrated and even a bit painful sometimes, when it comes to romantic relationships.
    I can't see myself with any STs, for instance. No generalizations at play, but it's simply...patterns I've observed; they rarely if ever gravitate arround the same stuff I'm interested in. Or passionate about. And it's impossible to bond over literally nothing, if there's no common ground. How am I supposed to get with someone when there's no common ground or cohesion? I think duality is best saved for non-romantic relationships.
    For romantic relationships, I have always prefered and gravitated towards my pet-theory that partners who have the rational elements in common in their ego block make for great couples. Ethicals with ethicals, logicals with logicals. Neighbouring quadras if prefered, avoiding quasi-identicals and extinguishment.
    479 so/sx



  11. #11
    Kill4Me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    TIM
    SLE-Ti 8w7 so/sp
    Posts
    2,317
    Mentioned
    228 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quadra values is the apotheosis of fake socionics. Multiple personality disorder (aka tritype) is the apotheosis of fake enneagram.

  12. #12
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Second story
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,734
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    'Quadra values' don't mean anything more than their respective IE pairs. Deriving particular socionormative values from those was always going to be a mistake.

    There can be stylistic differences vis-a-vis IE values in how one pursues/lives their normative values. But IEs in of themselves don't determine what those values will be.
    That’s true, but we have had conversations about trends and patterns we’ve seen with quadras. I still like what dolphin wrote here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/115-Quadra-Progression-by-dolphin.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

  13. #13
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,360
    Mentioned
    215 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    I see the environment as a place for correcting errors. Errors can be corrected by even your own self or your cognition, but so can the environment.

    Your cognition makes assumptions about the world, and if it's wrong then it gets corrected. That's how you learn anything. You imitate something your parent says, and if it's wrong, then you get corrected by your parent. You go to school and you learn something, and then you make an assumption that it's correct. If it's wrong, then you get the wrong answer and that gets corrected.
    While I agree that our environment (physical and social) are feedback mechanisms, I have a slight nitpick on the above:

    We develop mental models of our world (aka the assumptions you're referring to).
    "Learning" simply means changing something of our mental models.
    Above you refer to wrongness, correctness, etc. But the feedback we're getting from parents, society, teachers, etc is basically "your mental model does not match my mental model" with an implication of "so fix your mental model to match mine".


    Some people may stubbornly resist correcting errors for a very long time, but that would unwise.
    Some people do resist altering/changing their mental models. But that's not necessarily a bad/good thing. Sometimes a new or alternative mental model isn't as useful or accurate in certain contexts. Sometimes it is.


    So we have in-born assumptions about the world, like how we see the world or what we hear. But even those are assumptions and they could be wrong.

    If people supposedly have in-born views like "Democratic" or "Aristocratic", then it would mean that those people could never correct their own errors. And they must be wrong, because everybody is eventually wrong.
    I agree that our in-born biology influences our perceptions about and responses to the world (see Big 5 related personality theory), which is then further influenced by feedback from our physical and social environments.

    And finally, there's a saying "All models are wrong. Some are useful."
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  14. #14

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,396
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Some people do resist altering/changing their mental models. But that's not necessarily a bad/good thing. Sometimes a new or alternative mental model isn't as useful or accurate in certain contexts. Sometimes it is.
    Well I actually think that it may take more energy and effort to resist things than changing things, because it takes energy to keep the integrity of something. Books may degrade, memory gets faulty, people may remember things wrong, and so on. So it actually takes a lot of effort to keep things the same.

    But those random errors and mistakes may be useful, because that's how things could change and improve, as in the case of random mutations.

  15. #15
    Aramas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    United States
    TIM
    EII-Ne
    Posts
    1,297
    Mentioned
    79 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    Pretend, for a moment, that I am a newcomer, or an outsider. Set aside your own personal thoughts about how you relate to the Quadra Values Socionics literature speaks of. Now, let us discuss our observations of others in this regard.

    It has been a full year since I joined this forum. I have seen those who list themselves as Alpha call for limitations on free speech (sufficed the speech in question is deemed offensive). I have seen Betas shit on tribalism, tradition, and strongly profess and encourage individualism. I have seen and personally know Gammas who do not think that an excess of personal freedom and the acquisition of material wealth and financial opportunity are values to live by, and so forth. Now, obviously some of these individuals may be mistyped, but is it truly that simple?

    Given that each Quadra member relates to one another insofar as they share the same four valued functions, I appreciate the attempt to rationalize a coherent general worldview for a given Quadra. It's certainly an interesting concept, but do these conjectures truly assist in the confirmation of typing, or do they add bells and whistles where they are not needed, effectively muddying the waters?

    Share your own observations of instances where supposed Quadra Values are contradicted, or simply argue for the substantive worth and application of Quadra Values. To what extent do they apply at the individual level? Does the individual always conform to their respective Quadra Values? Finally, if you feel it is necessary, in what ways do you personally relate and/or depart from your own respective Quadra Values?

    Additionally, what other elements of Socionics theory would you argue for as unreliable and why?
    Quadra values are not a myth. They are not completely correct, but they do demonstrate a trend in the behavior of the quadras. Like any theory, the truth begins in infancy and progresses toward further refinement over time. The inaccuracy of the descriptions does not disprove the underlying thread.

    Sure. There are people in every quadra who profess values that contradict the quadra values. It's often true, though, that people will claim they have certain values and then act in ways that show that their true values are other than what they say they are. Some do this intentionally. Others do it unconsciously and robotically. You cannot necessarily rely on a person's claims of their values to tell what they actually value. Their behavior over time will determine that, if you watch carefully enough.

    The alphas argue for restrictions on speech of others so that they might have more free speech for themselves. The Betas undermine the collective so that they can create a new one. The Gammas eschew materiality to destroy a system they find unpleasing so that they can create a new one that will be their kind of materiality. Or they just say they aren't materialistic while carrying their $10 lattes to their luxury cars. (This paragraph is not always true. It's an example.)

    You say quadra values are bullshit, but by creating this thread and saying, "THIS IS TOTAL BULLSHIT," and attempting to rouse up public emotion about the topic and generate discussion, you have perfectly exemplified Beta behavior.

    Think about it. In your first paragraph, you speak in terms of the dichotomy between individual thought and collective observation. You say that you want to get rid of personal thought and talk about "our" observations. Pure Beta aristocracy. Congratulations! You're a stereotype!

    Another example: You start the thread by saying that you want us to see you as a newcomer, an outsider. In other words, you want to change our perspective and use your own. That's pure Ni, undiluted and unadulterated. I must say that I find it hard to see this thread as anything other than a planned joke, because the irony is beyond words.

    Outliers don't disprove a trend. Exceptions do not disprove a rule. And if anything, the OP is perfect Socionics in motion.
    Last edited by Aramas; 07-14-2019 at 05:53 PM.

  16. #16
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Logical supermacy torturing So(u)ls
    TIM
    ILE-C-I
    Posts
    4,467
    Mentioned
    190 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Do not be beta rational serious about it. More like a preferred style. It is not like brothas4lyfe (tm).
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

  17. #17
    FarDraft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    TIM
    INTp sp5
    Posts
    366
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    We have to differentiate theory from practice. In theory, we can imagine types as ideals in terms of element values whereas in practice this is not possible. For example, in theory, every SEI values Ne exactly the same amount as every other SEI. In practice, some SEIs probably value Ne a lot and some probably value it relatively little because it's so weak. This means that, in theory, based on these type ideals we can predict higher level traits. For instance, since all alphas value NeFe and all members of a specific type in alpha value NeFe the same amount as all other members of that type, we can say that alphas would generally like group discussions. In theory, this works, but in application of these higher level traits for real people, we must be much more careful since people are not ideals. Many LIIs may not enjoy large group discussions because of weak Fe, for instance. There's a connection between strength and value that we must not forget.

    That being said, another thing to consider is that IEs have many aspects and the common ideas of quadra only use some of those aspects. For example, Te is not only the accumulation of functional resources but also the precise knowledge of detailed processes (there are many other aspects of Te but let's consider these two for now). Yet you don't really hear gamma being the quadra of technicians or something along those lines. This is, in part, due to Se values over Si, but the point is that not every idea of every IE is covered in the common quadra descriptions. Basically, while we would expect IE blockings to change high level patterns, we can't be so strict so as to forget that real people may not fit so neatly into those blockings, meaning that considering IEs on an individual basis for real world typing is important alongside considering blockings.

    Here are my (probably tentative) conclusions: if we're referring to "typing by quadra values" as the precise application of IEs valued by a quadra by considering the values of the individual we are looking to type, then I think using quadra values to type are fine (within reason and with care, of course - and bearing in mind that strong functions tend to be more valued than weak ones). If we're referring to "typing by quadra values" as the application of common quadra descriptions, then we have to be much more careful since those descriptions often don't cover everything about every IE since those descriptions are based on strict blockings rather than more fluid individual IEs.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

  18. #18
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Logical supermacy torturing So(u)ls
    TIM
    ILE-C-I
    Posts
    4,467
    Mentioned
    190 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    If I’m truly, 100% honest with myself, then I must admit that in the back of my head, there’s this voice that often whispers (and sometimes yells), “fuck em all, get the money.”

    Despite having been called a far leftist “Marxist” several times on this board, I’ve never actually stated my political affiliation/orientation and economic worldview > And I’m neither a Communist nor a “Far leftist.” Deep in my bones, I’m hardcore Capitalist; that is my instinct.

    BUT, because of two factors, I don’t succumb to that instinct >

    1.) Seeing the havoc that unfettered/unhinged Capitalism has directly/indirectly wrought on some of the communities I belong to and specific individuals I care for and want to protect, and especially the most disenfranchised among them, my Fi value system was influenced to push back on that kind of corrupting greed.

    2.) I primarily grew up within a Delta/Alpha leaning society that favors a mixed economic model combining aspects of both capitalism and socialism and because of witnessing firsthand how well that has worked out for us (I’m a ‘Green’ Entrepreneur FFS) financially and ethically, I’m inclined to support a system and worldview situated somewhere between Gamma and Delta Quadra.

    But again, were I to be completely honest, “MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY...MONEY!" is always operating somewhere in my consciousness. lol
    This LIE dude (Notice nice clothing PoLR moment going on)

    He started as a communist and nowadays swims in money and makes controversial capitalistic statements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

  19. #19
    Kill4Me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    TIM
    SLE-Ti 8w7 so/sp
    Posts
    2,317
    Mentioned
    228 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quadra values needs to be a thing of the past - a relic. It only leads to mistypings. I'll repost what I wrote back in May 12, 2017 prior to merging Socionics New Wave into Stackemup Typology (socionics-side):

    "The Open Borders approach dissolves the Quadra Values mythology….”drains the swamp.” Socionics New Wave still recognizes Quadras but in the same way that England recognizes the royal family. We will call them King and Queen but they don’t have any actual power. Although there may be some values loosely associated with each quadra, there's absolutely no rational basis for treating Quadra Values as an axiomatic principle of Socionics. It's ludicrous to use it as starting point.

    The Closed Borders view is the one that is held by pretty much every Socionics School of Thought except for Socionics New Wave. That is, the view – religiously held by some -- that there is such a thing as Quadra Values and that one can or should begin with quadra when typing. So in the classic methodology, first you type Quadra based on Quadra values, whatever that means, and then you narrow it down by one of four types, either through VI or one of the less objective, less serious methods of typing.

    Consequently, the VI breakdown for each Socionics type laid down by Socionics New Wave is much better than the breakdown proferred by Socionics.Com. Even though both schools of thought recognize that VI is superior to all other methods of typing, pinterest.com/socionics's breakdown is not inhibited by a Closed Borders Approach. The Open/Closed Borders difference may not be the precise or only reason why the New Wave breakdown is better. However, I can affirmatively state that the New Wave breakdown would not have come out so great if it had been based in the more arbitrary Closed Borders Method."


    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...71#post1189571

  20. #20
    Ragdoll Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    TIM
    0-D ISTp sx/sp
    Posts
    2,716
    Mentioned
    326 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Seems like there's an incorrect use and understanding of socionics terminology.



    Here Gamma quadra values according Strat:
    1. "Democratic" trait (rational aspects are involutionary, with a minus sign; irrational aspects are evolutionary, with a plus sign: -Fi, -Te, +Se, +Ni)
    In accordance with this trait, every person has the right 1) to interact with others as equals 2) to strive towards maximally possible creative self-realization 3) to freely develop one's business and creative initiatives 4) to fight for equality in rights and possibilities to creatively realize oneself 5) to defend one's own right to freedom of action and to an adequate response by action 6) to have freedom for enterprise, for making decisions, and for defending one's own point of view.

    2. "Decisive" trait (predominance of evolutionary irrational aspects +Ni +Se)
    In accordance with this trait, every person has the right 1) to interact with others from position of power 2) to operatively, in condensed periods of time, solve problems, his own and those of others, making responsible decisions and making others obey them 3) to decisively defend one's own right to labor, right to freedom of entrepreneurial activity and freedom of choice of profession 4) to resolutely defend one's own point of view, to advantageously and operatively use one's own fighting qualities and particularities of the ongoing moment.

    3. "Objectivist" trait (predominance of involutionary logic of actions and ethics of relations -Fi -Te)
    In accordance with this trait, every person has the right 1) to trust their personal experience – professional, pragmatic, business experience derived from personal observations – and insist on one’s right to further act in accordance to it 2) to trust facts and to become persuaded by facts – to provide them as the main proof of one's correctness 3) to evaluate the situation by already transpired facts and to act in accordance with circumstances existing up to date, trusting one's own experience and one's notion of expedience of a particular course of action 4) to freely and resolutely demonstrate pragmatic initiatives coming from one's own base of observations, one's own personal and professional experience, and reasoning founded common sense, and at one's own discretion 5) to evaluate a person according to the level of his qualifications, based on facts of his professional training, attainments, and competence 6) to remove (or ask for removal) from work those who are inept and negligent, to push them out from work and projects 7) to fight for one's own participation in work or a project, for one's place on a working team, and to be able to defend it.


    1. The aspect of evolutionary volitional sensing (+Se) – Total democratization of society, universal accessibility to spheres of creative self-realization, professional demand, access to professional training and education.
    2. The aspect of evolutionary intuition of time (+Ni) – Sense of one's own necessity in the current age, in a given stretch of time, understanding of the demands and needs of the time, sense of one's own significance in the present epoch, sense of the possibilities of the current epoch: "Time has chosen us!" "Time does not wait!" "Time goes ahead!"
    3. The aspect of involutionary business logic (-Te) – Freedom of action, freedom of choice of one's profession, freedom of enterprise, freedom of creative initiative, freedom of creative self-realization.
    4. The aspect of involutionary ethics of relations (-Fi) – Moral codex and bar of rights, framework of appropriateness, development of rights and moral norms that are necessary for successful well-coordinated teamwork, for successful creative self-realization under the conditions of free competition, for formation of beneficial partnerships, and so on.
    None of it says "the acquisition of material wealth", this kind of associations are used as shortcuts to replace bigger/deeper concepts when learning something new (mental summary), but in the long run, it provokes to not understand the concepts properly and leads to use them wrongly.

    In the same sense, tradition or tribalism and lack of individuality are not beta values, instead:

    1. "Aristocratic" trait (rational aspects are evolutionary, with a plus sign; irrational aspects are involutionary, with a minus sign: +Fe, +Ti, -Se, -Ni)
    In accordance with this trait, every person has the right 1) to create a hierarchy, establishing relations of subordination, to subordinate those below him and to comply with those above him 2) to support already established within the hierarchy traditions and rituals and monitor their observance 3) to put claims to the dominant positions within the system and to fight for one's right to occupy them 4) to fight for positional advantages in accumulation of rights, privileges, and opportunities 5) to establish one's own order within the system, consolidating power in one's own hands, to interact with others from position of power 6) to suppress by own authority, by authority of personal opinion 7) to control and critique the statements of lower ranking members of the hierarchy, limiting their right to expression on any (or on forbidden) subjects 8) to authoritatively impose one's own point of view, decisions, power, and will.

    2. "Decisive" trait (predominance of involutionary irrational aspects -Ni -Se)
    In accordance with this trait, every person has the right 1) to interact with others from the position of power 2) to interact with others from the position of advantage in rights, standing, and power 3) to use power methods to fight for an advantageous position within the system and have the right to put a claim to it 4) to operatively, in condensed periods of time, solve problems, his own and those of others, making responsible decisions and making others obey them 5) to win a dominating place in a system, to advantageously and operatively use own fighting qualities and particularities of the present moment 6) to authoritatively impose one's own will, decisions, and opinions.

    3. "Subjectivist" trait (predominance of evolutionary rational aspects +Ti +Fe)
    In accordance with this trait, every person has the right 1) to subjective analysis of events, opinions, and actions 2) to search for "the culpable" and displace them from the system, at the same time resisting being displaced, fighting for one's own place within the system 3) to contend the opinions and decisions of others and impose his own opinion as the final truth 4) to deliver his opinions firmly, sharply, unequivocally, displacing opponents out of the argument, out of the system of relations, out of the social system, and into the lower strata.

    Four aspects structure the society of Beta Quadra:

    1. The aspect of evolutionary logic of relations (+Ti) – Creates a subordinate system of relations, creates an authoritative autocratic system of power ("a vertical"). Brings order to this hierarchical structure, protects and supports it. Creates a foundation of rights under this "vertical structure", creates "a table of ranks" and a system of rewards and punishments, defines the extent of rights and responsibilities, establishes a system of benefits and privileges.
    2. The aspect of evolutionary ethics of emotions (+Fe) – Creates ideological hierarchies that support the current autocratic apparatus. Creates a theocratic system of power. Sets prospective goals and targets for existing social structures, acting as their spiritual and ideological leader – "the forward" and "forward-looking".
    3. The aspect of involutionary volitional sensing (-Se) – Creates new power structures that are alternative to already existing ones, spontaneously creates "a vertical" of power. Ensures combat readiness and defensive capability of the spearheaded system.
    4. The aspect of involutionary intuition of time (-Ni) – Tacitly and unnoticeably ensures the security of the system; in advance covers up the "rear points" of the dominants of the hierarchy, forewarns them of impending dangers, but can also replace them (discreetly and unobtrusively) if they are recognized as weak and incompetent leaders.
    edit.

    ...as for alpha:

    I have seen those who list themselves as Alpha call for limitations on free speech (sufficed the speech in question is deemed offensive)
    1. Fears and concerns arising from Alpha quadral complex.

    From the combination of the properties of all of predominating traits listed above, in Alpha Quadra there arises a fierce competition of views and opinions. Discussions, debates, arguments – these are the most wide-spread and most natural forms of approaching important issues here. Each person considers it to be their duty (a natural and legal right) to speak freely on any subject or issue, not limiting themselves to the means of expression in lexicon and by time.

    Each person feels the right to suppress the opinion of his or her opponents by his own arguments, forcing them out of the dispute, out of the audience, out of the topic, and out of the system. (Up to demands and exclamations: "Get out! There is no place here for the likes of you! First, learn to behave yourself properly and to hear out your opposition.")
    Quadra Values refers to the rights that I care to get (as quadra complex), not necessarily the rights or concessions I'm going to give to others.
    Last edited by Ragdoll Cat; 07-16-2019 at 02:28 PM.

  21. #21

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,396
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Outliers don't disprove a trend. Exceptions do not disprove a rule. And if anything, the OP is perfect Socionics in motion.
    How do you know what one "truly is"?

    You have already decided that certain dispositions belong to certain groups of people, and this can't be easily disproven. You can always turn around and say that "Well these are not what they truly are". You can keep doing that until they fit into your rule, which may eventually happen by random chance.

    Again, it does not explain their behavior and why they're the way that they are. It's just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

  22. #22
    To Stand As The Oak Luminous Lynx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Wilderness
    TIM
    EIE-Ni
    Posts
    300
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Apologies, I have a serious tendency to ramble, so I tried keeping the OP as brief as I could. I should've stated that I was simply addressing the stereotypical sociological and ethical worldviews that I see people attribute to Quadra membership (had I done so, I know I would've bloated the OP with further context). I've been on the forum for a year and spent several months in live chat services with other Socionics folks, thus I've seen a variety of positions on this, so I thought it would make for an interesting thread. I certainly wasn't limiting discussion to the exampled traits, or even insisting those particular assertions were true in the first place; it would be rather weak to ask if something is muddying the waters without providing instance, and it clearly got people talking so it served a purpose. The point of this was to create discussion, so respect to all of you for your efforts, particularly to any providing detailed explanations.

    In the interest of objective conversation, I've intentionally withheld my own view. The most persuasive argument I've seen thus far is that Quadra Values are more so what a person does not want to be personally deprived of rather than something they would consistently stand for on a societal level. This thread is proving rather productive.
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    My Typing Thread

    Model A: EIE-Ni2
    -
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So


  23. #23
    Ragdoll Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    TIM
    0-D ISTp sx/sp
    Posts
    2,716
    Mentioned
    326 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Nothing to apologize for. Most socionics concepts are used in the forum incorrectly by most. Even the most basic ones like IEs. Fi=morals, Fe=emotions, etc. and sociotypes are just stereotypes and cartoons that cannot fit a real personality. However keep things brief is different from distortion.
    That's why I suggest reading directly socionics theory and socionist articles instead of learning from what others say or comment in this forum. Discussion is constructive, such as asking for perspectives and opinions, though. But again, I'd suggest not constructing basic knowledge from that but using it more as a complement than as primary source.

    There are also various authors each one with different observations about same aspects, and from that depends the ideas you get. To take as example tradition, Gulenko says that "tradition" is likely Delta, since delta focuses more in past than future.

    Second quadra is oriented towards the future: this quadra is similar to a fired arrow that pierces time. Past is not valuable for the second quadra, on the contrary, it always carries a negative connotation. In the best case it is declared that it is needed to take up the most valuable developments, and move ahead. It is the second quadratic that produces ideas of the "ideal" governments of the future and tries to benefit all humankind by attempting to build them. The fourth quadra is more focused on the past, which is usually endowed by a positive image of established traditions that should not be changed but observed. Sociotypes of fourth quadra are opponents of various social experiments. x
    In the other hand, Strat doesn't mention "tradition" as pertinent to any quadra (afaik).
    So, according what ideas have you acquired from who, you are going to develop an opinion of a concept working irl or not.

    In my case, I have met Deltas (j) who are not "traditionalists" as Gulenko describes it, and will strive for social experiments or ideologies of ideal governments (for example communism). But I haven't met yet Betas being truly traditionalists either. I've met betas who care more for fulfilling social conventions such as doing what society dictates should be done (and not merely because of moral, but mb because of Fe, keeping the atmosphere or a sense of belonging). Also as a way to fitting in a group and not being an outcast or not being pushed in the lowest rank in society (from that position they will try to fight their way to dominant positions and influence others according their most honest beliefs).

    Anyway, I don't think tradition matches any quadra per se. What's tradition and what's not also depends on what group or circle you belong to and what country or society you are in...and what if a tradition goes against other quadra values? I wouldn't use nouns to describe or explain quadral values but adjectives (since they describe personality traits).



    Finally, ime quadras exists as its implicit in model A. There are 4 types with the same valued ethics, logic, sensing and intution, so they would get better understanding between them, than with ppl from opposite values in daily activities. Otherwise, intertype relations don't "exist" neither model A and there are just 8 types instead of 16 (ISTx, ISFx, INFx, ENFx, ESFx, ESTx, ENTx, INTx). That doesn't fit with my personal experience.
    Last edited by Ragdoll Cat; 07-19-2019 at 11:59 PM.

  24. #24
    Number 9 large's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Baking bread
    TIM
    ESTP 7w8
    Posts
    2,819
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    If it's affected by things like upbringing, then it's 100% caused by upbringing, and 0% by anything else.
    Its that 0% room for nuance Ne polr

  25. #25
    mfckrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    The most persuasive argument I've seen thus far is that Quadra Values are more so what a person does not want to be personally deprived of rather than something they would consistently stand for on a societal level.
    Seems incoherent.

  26. #26
    mfckrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    If ya'll are going to get into things like Tribalistic vs Individualistic, etc, may I suggest reading "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt. You can even find a summary of the 5 moral foundations of
    * Care/Harm (protecting and caring for children and the vulnerable)
    * Fairness/Cheating (reaping benefits of two-way partnerships; reciprocity)
    * Loyalty/Betrayal (forming cohesive coalitions; patriotism and group pride would be an example of this)
    * Authority/Subversion (forging beneficial relationships within hierarchies; social groups in animals/humans have hierarchies and status)
    * Sanctity/Degradation (avoiding contaminants; avoiding taboo ideas; guarding traditions)
    * Liberty/Oppression (a suggested inclusion they're considering adding in)
    Those mostly just end describing people's preferred politics (e.g. Conservatives ↑Purity, Liberals ↑Fairness, Libertarians ↑Liberty…). Can't see much correlation with Socionics (but we might be agreeing).

  27. #27
    To Stand As The Oak Luminous Lynx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Wilderness
    TIM
    EIE-Ni
    Posts
    300
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Seems incoherent.
    Hmm, I just thought it sounded plausible and it seems to also leaving room for what you said about socionormative values. Could you perhaps respond to the claim itself or explain your thinking? That would be helpful.
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    My Typing Thread

    Model A: EIE-Ni2
    -
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So


  28. #28
    mfckrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    Hmm, I just thought it sounded plausible and it seems to also leaving room for what you said about socionormative values. Could you perhaps respond to the claim itself or explain your thinking? That would be helpful.
    Obviously when most people fight for things on a societal level, it's out of a desire to not be personally deprived of them (e.g. gun rights, abortion rights).

  29. #29
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,360
    Mentioned
    215 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Those mostly just end describing people's preferred politics (e.g. Conservatives ↑Purity, Liberals ↑Fairness, Libertarians ↑Liberty…). Can't see much correlation with Socionics (but we might be agreeing).
    I came back to delete that post before you responded. I guess I wasn't fast enough. This isn't much of a conversation I want to get into. But yeah, I think much of the "quadra values" often described are BS. Especially when political/moral labels are being attributed to any quadra. Such ones like: NTs and SFs are individualistic or NFs and STs are conformative...these irk me. Especially the ones that place a political label on a quadra...while forgetting the context and influences of the changing Russia politics happening at the time the originators were coming up with this stuff.

    If people want to talk about ethical/moral values, socionics isn't it. The two that I listed are far more useful in understanding a person's or group's values.

    The only real acceptable quadra values would be along the lines of "Delta values Ne, Fi, Si, Te".
    Or in aspectonics terms: Delta values =
    * implicit states (static NF),
    * explicit dynamics (dynamic ST),
    * abstract objects (NeTe)
    * and experiential fields (SiFi)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  30. #30
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,360
    Mentioned
    215 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Obviously when most people fight for things on a societal level, it's out of a desire to not be personally deprived of them (e.g. gun rights, abortion rights).
    Except why is a person fighting to not be personally deprived of gun rights, abortion rights, same sex marriage, etc?
    Because someone is fighting TO deprive others of those things.

    Freedom From...
    vs Freedom To...
    (ain't a socionics thing)

    (anyhoot, hi mfckrz...(i'm assuming you're who I think you are)...and laterz, i'm off this thread...I hope)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  31. #31
    mfckrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    The only real acceptable quadra values would be along the lines of "Delta values Ne, Fi, Si, Te".
    Or in aspectonics terms: Delta values =
    * implicit states (static NF),
    * explicit dynamics (dynamic ST),
    * abstract objects (NeTe)
    * and experiential fields (SiFi)
    That's how I try to construe it too (e.g. γ = Explicit Objects + Implicit Fields)

  32. #32
    mfckrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Except why is a person fighting to not be personally deprived of gun rights, abortion rights, same sex marriage, etc?
    Because someone is fighting TO deprive others of those things.
    We could spin it around again and say they're trying to deny those things out of fear of their being denied something else (personal safety, sacrality, sanctity…).

  33. #33
    To Stand As The Oak Luminous Lynx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Wilderness
    TIM
    EIE-Ni
    Posts
    300
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Obviously when most people fight for things on a societal level, it's out of a desire to not be personally deprived of them (e.g. gun rights, abortion rights).
    Hmm, the issue may simply be with my own framing.

    Could you respond to @Ragdoll Lynx - "Quadra Values refers to the rights that I care to get, not necessarily the rights or concessions I'm going to give to others. "

    If I understand Ragdoll correctly, an example of this could be an Alpha individual saying that "Free speech is ideal but should have reasonable limits" (eg: 'offensive' speech), yet would be tremendously resistant to and offended if you were to silence them. That is to say, 'freedom for me, but not for thee'. I'm not saying Alphas commonly do this, nor am I saying they are alone in this, it is simply an example of what I understood from Ragdoll's point.

    Technically, I could see how one could make the argument that what constitutes most 'societal values' is simply a bunch of individuals asserting their own needs and desires, but I still thought what Ragdoll said was a worthwhile distinction, as it permits for ostensible incongruities in Quadra stereotypes on the individual level (someone not fitting the expected mold), while also explaining how certain concepts nevertheless apply at the individual level.

    If I have created the need for Ragdoll to further clarify due to my misunderstanding, I apologize. If you could address her original quotation I'd appreciate it.
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    My Typing Thread

    Model A: EIE-Ni2
    -
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So


  34. #34
    mfckrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    Could you respond to @Ragdoll Lynx - "Quadra Values refers to the rights that I care to get, not necessarily the rights or concessions I'm going to give to others. "
    Then we'd be better off calling them Quadra Hypocrisies if that's the case?

    If I understand Ragdoll correctly, an example of this could be an Alpha individual saying that "Free speech is ideal but should have reasonable limits" (eg: 'offensive' speech), yet would be tremendously resistant to and offended if you were to silence them. That is to say, 'freedom for me, but not for thee'. I'm not saying Alphas commonly do this, nor am I saying they are alone in this, it is simply an example of what I understood from Ragdoll's point.
    Eh, I'm trying to address this vis-a-vis Socionics… but I can't get away from the fact that it sounds like a fairly typical view for Millennials and younger re: free speech in this foul year of our lord 2019.

    Technically, I could see how one could make the argument that what constitutes most 'societal values' is simply a bunch of individuals asserting their own needs and desires, but I still thought what Ragdoll said was a worthwhile distinction, as it permits for ostensible incongruities in Quadra stereotypes on the individual level (someone not fitting the expected mold), while also explaining how certain concepts nevertheless apply at the individual level.
    Or, we could leave quadra-specific socionormative prescriptions behind altogether. And evaluate whether it's more the thematic style of one's valuational outlooks that's quadra-indicative rather than the particular content or moral assertions thereof.

    Socionics pertains to information metabolism (as opposed to information processing). So I find a qualitative approach more illuminating.

  35. #35
    Ragdoll Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    TIM
    0-D ISTp sx/sp
    Posts
    2,716
    Mentioned
    326 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    quadra complexes arise from fears rooted in quadra values and they manifest in several ways, not just hypocrisy. @Luminous Lynx , that's what I was talking about since you mentioned specifically the case of alpha not respecting their main values toward others (which is not merely quadra values but you were referring to quadra complex as the quote I posted).

    A complex is a core pattern of emotions, memories, perceptions, and wishes in the personal unconscious organized around a common theme, such as power or status.
    Last edited by Ragdoll Cat; 07-16-2019 at 02:35 PM.

  36. #36

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,396
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    You guys are just making an observation, and then fighting over which category they belong to.

    Of course, the categorization is completely arbitrary. There's no fundamental reason why should free speech belong to Alpha or Beta or NF or explicit dynamics or Implicit Fields or any of the Socionics buzzwords that you throw at.

    Try finding any reason for why they should belong to a certain category. You can't.

  37. #37
    nefnaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    TIM
    LII-Ne
    Posts
    207
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Like many things in socionics, quadra values are "real" in the sense that we can model them and apply theoretical properties of the models to real life. However, their importance has perhaps been overblown. In particular, Activity and Mirror relations are accorded a special "in-quadra" status that may not be justified, when compared with other potentially favorable relations like Semi-Duality, Mirage, Quasi-Identity, etc.

  38. #38
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Logical supermacy torturing So(u)ls
    TIM
    ILE-C-I
    Posts
    4,467
    Mentioned
    190 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I do not know about quadra complexes more than example of over psychoanalyzing without evidence but I have developed views towards certain socionists. [Complex seems like funny impenetrable place for explanation at first glance.]

    [Sometimes Starti is like: watch while I derive truths based on how I feel. Granted that I like to dismantle things.]
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

  39. #39
    عالم نفسي thehotelambush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,061
    Mentioned
    284 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    As others have already mentioned, in practice yes, quadra values are complicated, just like any type trait. They can manifest in multiple ways despite deriving from a single source, which, at the type level, is the valued/subdued dichotomy in Model A. Add to this the effect of upbringing, spiritual development, and cultural values and they can be difficult to spot.

    More specifically though, quadras are a unification of opposite traits, among which are the dual pairs Ti/Fe, Si/Ne, etc. This is clearest with the leading/suggestive function axis: most people do not consciously prioritize their suggestive function at all and may seem to not value it very much.

    The word "hypocrisy" very much applies here, and I've used it for the suggestive function in the past: it's something you expect or want to get, but not give to others.

    This raises the question of how to resolve the contradiction, to see the true essence of the quadra. Or, what do dual pairs have in common? This is a main question driving my research and I've modified or generalized some of the definitions accordingly. The key to all of this is the semantics of the IM elements. They need to be defined in a way that explains how they relate together and interact in Model A.

    Not to mention, if you don't think quadra values should be taken seriously, then what should? Aside from Jungian dichotomies or individual functions there is not much else to go on. Quadras, when defined in the right way (which is necessarily very general), are one of the most proven and reliable categories out there.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •