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Thread: The Rise of Far Left Extremism

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    xerxe's political/economic education comes from Ted Talks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    xerxe's political/economic education comes from Ted Talks.
    As opposed to yours, which are culled from between your ass cheeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    As opposed to yours, which are culled from between your ass cheeks.
    Lol, i've had people on this very forum suggest that my knowledge comes from wikipedia(!), i'd nearly (tho not really) be 'flattered' to have someone on here suggest to me i get my knowledge from TED talks.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    So I looked in the "Our Mission" section of the website, which bombastically proclaims their organization's desire to defend "Judeo-Christian" culture, making them comically not neutral on the question of Muslim immigration.



    Regardless, the article was written in 2015, so I checked around to see how well the refugees in Germany are integrating. It seems like of the 1.5 million, 400,000+ are already either working or in job training. The article doesn't say what % of that 1.5 million are children, elderly, or women raising children. These figures are, in fact, ahead of what experts predicted. Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8901161.html

    Regarding long-time Muslim immigrants to France: if integration is that bad (and I believe it is), then the problem could be structural, whereas the integration of long-time Muslims immigrants to Germany is significantly better, with unemployment matching the national average. Source: https://www.thelocal.de/20170824/int...rest-of-europe



    Regarding immigration to America, according to the CATO institute, which is a right wing / small-government think tank, legal and illegal immigrants receive less welfare benefits and commit fewer crimes than ordinary Americans.

    Source 1: https://www.cato.org/publications/co...-welfare-state.
    Source 2: https://www.cato.org/publications/im...egal-immigrant
    I noticed your first link mentioned this:

    One reason why immigrants use fewer benefits is because they are often not eligible for them. Legal immigrants cannot get welfare for their first five years of residency, with few exceptions, mostly at the state level. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for welfare except for rare circumstances like emergency Medicaid.
    This certainly obfuscates things because not being allowed to use something is certainly going to distort the statistics profoundly at least in the US. The main issue though isn't that immigrants are more likely to use welfare or commit more crimes than natives. It's that immigrants add in welfare costs and more crime in the long term (post 5 years) simply by entering because you are adding in more people by default if you don't control immigration. However, I never mentioned the US in terms of welfare or crime as I was talking about Europe. You don't really need a study to see how mass immigration/open borders is draining the welfare states of Western Europe and rising crime rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    @Raver

    Both legal as well as illegal immigrants to America use less welfare and commit fewer crimes. If I was going to be a dick about it, I'd point out how replacing ordinary Americans with illegals might actually make the country better.
    Legal and illegal immigrants to America use less welfare than natives because they are not allowed access to welfare. You need to be a US citizen for 5 years to be eligible for welfare and newly arrived legal immigrants and illegal immigrants don't qualify for welfare. This doesn't apply to Europe though because they have much less stricter rules for welfare than the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Australia has about 86% Europeans and Canada has about 73% Europeans. 30% of Australians are born overseas, and I'd suppose they take in a lot of European immigrants.

    Australia frequently has these conservative, reactionary PMs, but I doubt that things will change very much.
    Fair enough, I agree that Australia is destined to become a multi-ethnic nation because of its history and culture. However, it will do more to stop it than countries like Sweden and Canada at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The Soviet Union and Cuba both seem to have had better results than the US in terms of education and health care, but worse results in terms of personal freedom of choice and opportunity.

    I think I'd rather live in the US if I could be certain that I'd be rich, and in the Soviet Union or Cuba if I knew I was going to be poor.

    Clearly, we don't have an all-inclusive solution to this problem yet.

    Since there is more than enough food, wealth, and opportunity to lift everyone out of poverty and give them a shot at a good life, you have to ask yourself why this hasn't happened? Personally, I believe the answer is found in Michael Kalecki's essay
    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012...mployment.html,
    Section IV, part 3.
    Basically, Kalecki says that, while government spending to achieve full employment could easily be done, the rich oppose it, even though they would be financial beneficiaries of it. Apparently, they don't like the idea of full employment because it would cause the workers to "get out of hand". In other words, some rich people prefer to give up some potential wealth if it keeps other people down.

    I believe this is the reason that the Communists in China succeeded in overthrowing the old system, and why there is a desire in some people to shoot the rich. I feel that way myself towards anyone who wants to keep me down.
    An all inclusive solution already exists, it's called social democracy (nordic model) and it was implemented in Scandinavian countries like Sweden after socialism failed decades ago and they replaced it with social democracy. The problem is the US has problems implementing it due to exorbitant military spending and troops overseas in war. This is one of the main reasons why the US is the only 1st world developed nation without universal health care.
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    Contrary to popular belief, Europe is ethnically homogeneous, and Africa is the most ethnically diverse. Japan and the Koreas are the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world (sure, that must've arose "naturally" without any artificial ideology at all).

    Are most people even that racist as they seem?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post


    Contrary to popular belief, Europe is ethnically homogeneous, and Africa is the most ethnically diverse. Japan and the Koreas are the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world (sure, that must've arose "naturally" without any artificial ideology at all).

    Are most people even that racist as they seem?

    Korea being a peninsula and Japan being an island had nothing to do with it then? Geography played a pivotal role in separating people ethnically whether that was mountains or bodies of water.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Korea being a peninsula and Japan being an island had nothing to do with it then? Geography played a pivotal role in separating people ethnically whether that was mountains or bodies of water.
    So is the United Kingdom, and yet they chose completely different paths.

    The fact is, there were, and still are, a diverse group of different tribes and ethnicities when people first arrived at those territories. It's just that those people have been conveniently "forgotten", pushed aside or forcibly assimilated due to an ideology of ethnic homogeneity. Also that Japanese, Koreans and Chinese have frequently inter-mingled with one another, but of course that has also been forgotten.

    However geography might play into a psychological role of these countries, as UK doesn't feel like it's much part of "Europe", and Japan doesn't feel very much that it's part of "Asia".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    So is the United Kingdom, and yet they chose completely different paths.

    The fact is, there were, and still are, a diverse group of different tribes and ethnicities when people first arrived at those territories. It's just that those people have been conveniently "forgotten", pushed aside or forcibly assimilated due to an ideology of ethnic homogeneity. Also that Japanese, Koreans and Chinese have frequently inter-mingled with one another, but of course that has also been forgotten.
    Those diverse group of different tribes and ethnicities pale in comparison to the vast differences between different ethnic groups that come from different continents. The way I see it, countries should be allowed to choose the path they want whether that is homogeneity or diversity. Diversity or multiculturalism shouldn't be the default go to option for every single country in the world. It also shouldn't be pushed as aggressively in the countries that it's been accepted in. Japan has chosen to be homogeneous then they should be accepted for wanting to retain their ethnicity instead of being forced to become multicultural or diverse because it is the 21st century.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Those diverse group of different tribes and ethnicities pale in comparison to the vast differences between different ethnic groups that come from different continents. The way I see it, countries should be allowed to choose the path they want whether that is homogeneity or diversity. Diversity or multiculturalism shouldn't be the default go to option for every single country in the world. It also shouldn't be pushed as aggressively in the countries that it's been accepted in. Japan has chosen to be homogeneous then they should be accepted for wanting to retain their ethnicity instead of being forced to become multicultural or diverse because it is the 21st century.
    And what about all the ethnic minorities that do actually live there? Should they be just forgotten?

    I would say that it's unjust, because then the ethnic minorities will be at the mercy of the arbitrary whims of the ethnic majority. And I doubt that the ethnic majority will be so good and merciful that they would be treating the ethnic minorities well for very long, especially during the hard times.

    Then there will be persecution and ethnic cleansing, and history would repeat itself all over again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Contrary to popular belief, Europe is ethnically homogeneous, and Africa is the most ethnically diverse.
    You mean Africa is far more clannish/tribalistic, and has badly drawn national borders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    And what about all the ethnic minorities that do actually live there? Should they be just forgotten?

    I would say that it's unjust, because then the ethnic minorities will be at the mercy of the arbitrary whims of the ethnic majority. And I doubt that the ethnic majority will be so good and merciful that they would be treating the ethnic minorities well for very long, especially during the hard times.

    Then there will be persecution and ethnic cleansing, and history would repeat itself all over again.
    Or they will live normal lives where they integrate and assimilate into the culture of their host nation just like how ethnic minorities have already done for several generations in any homogeneous country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Or they will live normal lives where they integrate and assimilate into the culture of their hos nation just like how ethnic minorities have already done for several generations in any homogeneous country.
    They do experience racism and discrimination, you know. Even severely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    They do experience racism and discrimination, you know. Even severely.
    It is inevitable to some extent in any homogeneous country, which is why they have the option to move to a multicultural/diverse country or back to their original nation. We shouldn't make the entire world multicultural/diverse to solve the problem of racism and discrimination. Even in multi-ethnic countries like Brazil, there is still racism, but between different mixtures of people. Even India has had a history of racism within its own people based on how dark their skin color is. People will always find a way to discriminate and be racist towards others, multiculturalism/diversity is a futile attempt at trying to stop it.

    You want multicultural/multi-ethnic nations just for the sake of having it then that is your prerogative, but it won't automatically stop racism and discrimination. This is why I think trying to force multicultural/multi-ethnicism in every 1st world developed nation is ridiculous. It's fine to do it for some nations, but not every single nation for some strange idea of everyone from around the world getting along. Multiculturalism/multi-ethnicism inadvertently breeds xenophobia because people can't relate to others and largely ignore each other. It takes the second generation or third generation immigrants to overcome those boundaries, but first generation immigrants usually don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    It is inevitable to some extent in any homogeneous country, which is why they have the option to move to a multicultural/diverse country or back to their original nation.
    It's doubly unfair that they're the ones that have to move out for being born into the "wrong" race or ethnicity, and how can they go back, when they're born in that country?

    We shouldn't make the entire world multicultural/diverse to solve the problem of racism and discrimination. Even in multi-ethnic countries like Brazil, there is still racism, but between different mixtures of people. Even India has had a history of racism within its own people based on how dark their skin color is. People will always find a way to discriminate and be racist towards others, multiculturalism/diversity is a futile attempt at trying to stop it.
    Homogenization is also an artificial attempt at stopping racism, only that it's appeasing to the majority at the expense of the minority.

    I think the reason why there's racism is because people hold onto these identities. It's just that people need a better identity like Civic nations.

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    I think ethnicity is a perfectly good identity. Ethnicity is not the same as race. Ethnicity is a combination of both genetics and culture. Look at how many people with various Eastern European names are living in Germany and are completely accepted without much ado, for example. You can change your ethnicity during your lifetime if you change your culture and that ethnic group places a higher value on culture than genetics. If that ethnicity mostly places value on genetics you should ask yourself why you want to be there to begin with since they sound like a bunch of horrible racists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    It's doubly unfair that they're the ones that have to move out for being born into the "wrong" race or ethnicity, and how can they go back, when they're born in that country?
    If they were born in that country then that makes them a second or third generation immigration that would make integration much easier for them because they absorbed the culture and traditions since birth. It's not easy or without issues of course, but they can live normal lives in those nations regardless. If it doesn't work then immigration can be used as a last resort. If I was born in China because my parents immigrated there before I was born and I felt like everyone hated me as a child growing up because I was the only non-Chinese person in the school then yeah it definitely sucks, but that doesn't mean I think China should become multicultural to cater to me as a minority lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Homogenization is also an artificial attempt at stopping racism, only that it's appeasing to the majority at the expense of the minority.

    I think the reason why there's racism is because people hold onto these identities. It's just that people need a better identity like Civic nations.
    If both homogenization and multiculturalism are artificial attempts at stopping racism then it's clear that trying to force homogeneous countries to become multicultural is not the solution. The issue is that people hate people that are different than them in general and it's not just race, sexuality, etc.... It's human nature to want to be with people that are similar to them in views, mentality and personality. Human tribalism exists in many forms, not just with ethnic differences that is just one possibility out of many. This is why multiculturalism, diversity and inclusiveness can only work to a point until it reaches diminishing returns and nothing else improves and we are back to square one where people get discriminated again for new reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    You mean Africa is far more clannish/tribalistic, and has badly drawn national borders.
    More reason to move from local identities to universal identities.

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    I wish I could turn Donald Trump into a guy with black skin. Like, maybe, for the rest of his life.

    They could call it a plot by the FBI, or they could call it an act of God, but I would call it Justice.

    There is nothing like having to walk in someone's shoes for moderating harsh opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    If they were born in that country then that makes them a second or third generation immigration that would make integration much easier for them because they absorbed the culture and traditions since birth. It's not easy or without issues of course, but they can live normal lives in those nations regardless.
    ...Why would you blame the victim? The racist will discriminate against them no matter how much they've integrated into the host country. There's also no fundamental reason why they should integrate, if only for the safety of not being a target of the majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    If both homogenization and multiculturalism are artificial attempts at stopping racism then it's clear that trying to force homogeneous countries to become multicultural is not the solution. The issue is that people hate people that are different than them in general and it's not just race, sexuality, etc.... It's human nature to want to be with people that are similar to them in views, mentality and personality. Human tribalism exists in many forms, not just with ethnic differences that is just one possibility out of many. This is why multiculturalism, diversity and inclusiveness can only work to a point until it reaches diminishing returns and nothing else improves and we are back to square one where people get discriminated again for new reasons.
    People hate each other because of polarization and intensification of these identities, which some of them might be almost completely arbitrary. Who cares what "tribe" you belong to?

    If people hate each other and fractionalize anyway, then what's the difference between homogeneity and diversity?

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    Well, ethnicity is literally the Greek/Latin word for a tribe and a tribe is defined by the people within it by any standards they choose, so that's why I have no issue with the idea of ethnic states on principle even though it can be done wrong in practice and used to justify all sorts of heinousness. Also, using the word "ethnic" to refer to groups that aren't multicultural is completely ridiculous and basically frames multiculturalism as a new religion. America is a multi-ethnic state and you can tell this because people identify themselves as things like Irish, German, English, African and Asian more often than just American, while the idea of American ethnicity tends to refer to people in the South. People in England with English citizenship almost always consider themselves English even if they're black, same with people in Germany and Hungary and many other European countries, but people in favor of forced multiculturalism want to paint ethnicity as being something that's closed for most people just to load the term with racist connotations. Granted, it's not easy to become a black Brit or Middle Eastern German but it's not easy to become an American immigrating from Mexico either even if the Mexican-American will probably keep their expatriate (another loaded word) ethnicity while the Brit and German won't. But then, I also had a German teacher who considered herself "more American than German" so ethnic identities in America are just messy in general.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

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    I would say that racial/ethnic homogeneity is almost completely illusory, because there's still diversity within the same race/ethnicity. People have diverse views and opinions, and that's only natural.

    I think that dividing different races and ethnicity into compartments isn't the answer, because that will only intensify the polarization in the long term. Only through dialogue and mingling that you can eliminate discrimination, because discrimination is based on ignorance. People discriminate against another when they think "those people are so different from me", when they aren't actually that much different.

    You might say "that naturally happens anyway", but then so do people "naturally" eat bad food, but that doesn't mean that we should advice them towards eating healthier foods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    There is nothing like having to walk in someone's shoes for moderating harsh opinions.
    Sometimes empathizing with certain people makes me despise them even more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    This certainly obfuscates things because not being allowed to use something is certainly going to distort the statistics profoundly at least in the US. The main issue though isn't that immigrants are more likely to use welfare or commit more crimes than natives. It's that immigrants add in welfare costs and more crime in the long term (post 5 years) simply by entering because you are adding in more people by default if you don't control immigration. However, I never mentioned the US in terms of welfare or crime as I was talking about Europe. You don't really need a study to see how mass immigration/open borders is draining the welfare states of Western Europe and rising crime rates.

    Legal and illegal immigrants to America use less welfare than natives because they are not allowed access to welfare. You need to be a US citizen for 5 years to be eligible for welfare and newly arrived legal immigrants and illegal immigrants don't qualify for welfare. This doesn't apply to Europe though because they have much less stricter rules for welfare than the US.
    OK Raver, I don't think we're going to agree.

    To be honest, I've always known that some people will be resistant to outsiders under virtually every circumstance. It's futile to change deep-seated habits, so let's just focus on what we both can agree on: fewer people will need to emigrate from these countries once they become better places to live. This process is slowly happening, but it can obviously be accelerated if the third world receives massive investment and technology transfers from the first world.
    Last edited by xerxe; 07-19-2019 at 06:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Who cares what "tribe" you belong to?
    Because normal human identity is stratified, of which 'tribe' has been one of those strata for millions of years now; chimps are well-known to separate into recognizable tribes, and will wage war with one another over territory, etc.

    You will not change millions of years of evolutionary history by decree.

    If people hate each other and fractionalize anyway, then what's the difference between homogeneity and diversity?
    The homogeneity you speak of would be inorganically contrived, rather than emerging via natural selection of free association & competition. That's the real difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    More reason to move from local identities to universal identities.
    Nature doesn't really tend towards monotypic equilibrium. We're always undergoing divergent speciation… accelerated in humans despite our lengthy lifespans because we have reproductive independence. Yet, you seem to want to arrest this process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    I would say that racial/ethnic homogeneity is almost completely illusory, because there's still diversity within the same race/ethnicity.
    When even man's most basic psychological underpinnings show a high degree of heritability, race/ethnicity clearly becomes a vital consideration when living in social proximity. For instance, I just ran across this:



    Doesn't require much extrapolative imagination to infer the consequences of what might happen if, say, two populations with contrasting biopsychological orientations in their reward processing were forced to live together. It would influence innumerable aspects of consumer behavior, contract law, normative expectations, and so on.

    Incorrigible complexities adding incalculably costly social overhead to every interaction.

    Only through dialogue and mingling that you can eliminate discrimination, because discrimination is based on ignorance. People discriminate against another when they think "those people are so different from me", when they aren't actually that much different.
    Typical Western conceit. Nobody actually cares about 'dialogue'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    With respect to "art," Capitalism has produced Boy bands and Justin Bieber. Enough said.
    In retrospect Backstreet Boys are good though, there's no denying it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    ...Why would you blame the victim? The racist will discriminate against them no matter how much they've integrated into the host country. There's also no fundamental reason why they should integrate, if only for the safety of not being a target of the majority.
    I am not blaming the victim, I am just saying that making an entire country multicultural to cater to a minority of people is silly. Obviously laws should be put in place to prevent people from abusing minorities so they're respected as equal citizens, but forcing mass immigration to quell that doesn't make any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    People hate each other because of polarization and intensification of these identities, which some of them might be almost completely arbitrary. Who cares what "tribe" you belong to?

    If people hate each other and fractionalize anyway, then what's the difference between homogeneity and diversity?
    You can't undo thousands of years of humanity living in tribes in decades of forced multiculturalism and diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    OK Raver, I don't think we're going to agree.

    To be honest, I've always known that some people will be resistant to outsiders under virtually every circumstance. It's futile to change deep-seated habits, so let's just focus on what we both can agree on: fewer people will need to emigrate from these countries once they become better places to live. This process is slowly happening, but it can obviously be accelerated if the third world receives massive investment and technology transfers from the first world.
    Fair enough. I think you would find few people that would disagree with you that improving third world nations standard of living should happen. Where they might disagree on is how much they should be helped or the means. Some would argue that they should be helped by themselves, others believe in foreign aid. I would be fine with increasing investment and technology transfers from the first world to the third world, but within reasonable means to not overburden the tax payer of 1st world nations. Anyways, in my own country and other ex-British countries, I am pretty tolerant to outsiders, but I think a line needs to be drawn. A multi-ethnic/mono-cultural 1st world nation in order to exist needs to eventually freeze immigration to basically zero eventually. I'm not saying it has to happen today, but it needs to happen eventually. The main primary fear I have is not a mult-ethnic society, but 1st world nations devolving to 3rd world nations or somewhere in between 1st and 3rd world.

    The other secondary fear I have is countries losing their culture and embracing the culture of where they immigrated from instead or developing a new watered down consumer mindless culture. The tertiary and last fear I have is countries losing their ethnicity so contrary to popular belief, ethnicity is not the main driving fear at least in my case. Where do I personally believe the line needs to be drawn in every single 1st world nation no matter what? I would say at around ~50% of the majority population so when the country is on the cusp of becoming a majority minority nation, near zero immigration needs to happen if the country wants to retain its 1st world status and the culture it has had for hundreds to thousands of years. So despite my rhetoric in keeping Europe ethnically pure, I know it's a fruitless endeavor in most European nations because of mass immigration/open borders so far and for that reason I don't expect it to happen.

    Several nations are projected to be minority-majority nations at less than 50% within several decades time at roughly the mid point of this century. So that means I think France needs remain at least 50% ethnically French, Germany needs to remain at least 50% ethnically German, US needs to remain at least 50% ethnically European and Canada needs to remain at least 50% ethnically European. I am a lot more lenient with ex-British colonies because trying to keep America and Canada to ~50% ethnically British/German is silly considering they were originally Native American countries. I am also sure that my views are malleable compared to others that are more conservative on immigration. The truth is whether people want to admit it or not, the vast majority of 1st generation immigrants will never fully integrate or assimilate fully into the country they immigrate to. Sure, those who immigrated under 10 years old would likely nearly fully or fully integrate and assimilate into the country and culture, but it's safe to say that someone that immigrated at the age of 20 or older will always be culturally attuned to their first nation and never fully integrate or assimilate.

    You can only really expect 2nd generation immigrants to fully integrate and assimilate into the country they have immigrated to. This is why lines must be drawn at some point in time if you want 1st world nations to retain their 1st world nation status, economy, quality of life, culture and values. As a 2nd generation immigrant, I feel much more culturally attuned to the nation I was born in compared to my parents that feel much more culturally attuned to the nation they were born in. This is true regardless of the nation the person immigrated from unless they immigrated from a neighboring nation that is very culturally similar. The main fear for most people ignoring racists in regards to immigration I would say is retaining 1st world status > retaining original culture > retaining ethnicity. Near zero immigration needs to eventually happen sooner or later or what the inevitable result is 1st world nations devolving into 3rd world nations at the worst possible case scenario or 1st world nations losing their original culture for a watered down meaningless empty consumer culture at the best possible case scenario. Majority ethnicities being wiped out completely is absurd of course, but them becoming eventual minorities is very real.

    So my question to you is this, where do you draw the line of multiculturalism and mass immigration and instead focus on monoculturalism and near zero immigration? Is it the same as my view when the country is at the cusp of becoming a majority minority nation at around ~50%? Is it more lenient than that so when the majority ethnicity is roughly on par with several minority groups at ~33%? Is it when the majority ethnicity becomes less than at least one other minority group at ~25%? Or is it when the majority ethnicity becomes less than several minority groups at ~10%? Where would that line be drawn for in a nation you have ethnic ancestry ties to like Georgia/Armenia? Would it be the same or different than compared to European nations or the US/Canada? Applying standards by drawing a definitive line with immigration requires no inhumane treatment or mass deportations aside from illegal immigrants. It's simply a matter of enforcing borders to near zero immigration to all 1st world nations once that line is recognized and drawn in order to protect 1st world nation status and retaining the culture of these nations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I wish I could turn Donald Trump into a guy with black skin.
    Sounds like the plot of an 80s teen comedy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    So my question to you is this, where do you draw the line of multiculturalism and mass immigration and instead focus on monoculturalism and near zero immigration? Is it the same as my view when the country is at the cusp of becoming a majority minority nation at around ~50%? Is it more lenient than that so when the majority ethnicity is roughly on par with several minority groups at ~33%? Is it when the majority ethnicity becomes less than at least one other minority group at ~25%? Or is it when the majority ethnicity becomes less than several minority groups at ~10%? Where would that line be drawn for in a nation you have ethnic ancestry ties to like Georgia/Armenia? Would it be the same or different than compared to European nations or the US/Canada? Applying standards by drawing a definitive line with immigration requires no inhumane treatment or mass deportations aside from illegal immigrants. It's simply a matter of enforcing borders to near zero immigration to all 1st world nations once that line is recognized and drawn in order to protect 1st world nation status and retaining the culture of these nations.
    Where would xerxe draw the line? I wouldn't because racial and ethnic identities are ridiculous and stupid. I don't care if my grandson is White, Brown, Black, or Blue and speaks Martian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Where would xerxe draw the line? I wouldn't because racial and ethnic identities are ridiculous and stupid. I don't care if my grandson is White, Brown, Black, or Blue and speaks Martian.
    If you think culture is that shallow, you've got another thing coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Where would xerxe draw the line? I wouldn't because racial and ethnic identities are ridiculous and stupid. I don't care if my grandson is White, Brown, Black, or Blue and speaks Martian.
    I don't care if my future great great great grandson is a mix of x, y and z ethnicities/races because that is inevitable in today's globalized world. What I do care about is if he is living in a corrupt authoritarian third world nation with no middle class because previous generations were too naive and gullible to think that endless immigration has little to no consequences.

    Try to get out of the headspace that people conservative on immigration are afraid of race and ethnicity and try to get into the mindset of them being afraid of significantly reduced standards of living with significantly lower personal freedoms. Then you can understand their point of view more. Some of them are racist, but most of them are not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I wish I could turn Donald Trump into a guy with black skin.
    You might want to ask this guy to make a comic for you then. (Don't worry, it's not porn even if it's very R-rated. It pretty much is a teenage comedy, and probably why The Sims is in the MoMA)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver
    The main primary fear I have is not a mult-ethnic society, but 1st world nations devolving to 3rd world nations or somewhere in between 1st and 3rd world.
    That's called a 2nd world country or communism and is exactly what people want to make the US into.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    That's called a 2nd world country or communism and is exactly what people want to make the US into.
    Um, why would anyone want to make the US into a third world country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Um, why would anyone want to make the US into a third world country?
    The average well meaning person would not want that, at least not intentionally. However, the wealthy elite would prefer it because it means more for them and less for everyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    I don't care if my future great great great grandson is a mix of x, y and z ethnicities/races because that is inevitable in today's globalized world. What I do care about is if he is living in a corrupt authoritarian third world nation with no middle class because previous generations were too naive and gullible to think that endless immigration has little to no consequences.

    Try to get out of the headspace that people conservative on immigration are afraid of race and ethnicity and try to get into the mindset of them being afraid of significantly reduced standards of living with significantly lower personal freedoms. Then you can understand their point of view more. Some of them are racist, but most of them are not.
    Which is also stupid. If population growth was the real issue, then 2019 France (67 million people) would have fewer freedoms and a lower standard of living than 1600 France (20 million people).

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    If you think culture is that shallow, you've got another thing coming.
    I didn't say culture, I said race and ethnicity. Even so, culture changes radically all the time; the culture in 2200 is probably going to be completely unrecognizable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Um, why would anyone want to make the US into a third world country?
    I said 2nd world, not 3rd world, but see @Raver's post. There are lots of people who would cut off their nose to spite their face in the world.

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    A question for the race realists: would you rather live in a neighborhood with Thomas Sowell as your next-door neighbor, or in one with Cletus the white meth addict as your next-door neighbor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    I said 2nd world, not 3rd world, but see @Raver's post. There are lots of people who would cut off their nose to spite their face in the world.
    I don't think there's really some mass conspiracy of this sort. I think there's just a lot of ignorant, but well-intentioned people who really believe capitalism is the devil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I didn't say culture, I said race and ethnicity. Even so, culture changes ALL the time.
    Ethnicity is the culture you belong to. It just gets confused for race because multicultural societies like to strongly imply that culture is only something that people who haven't had the Enlightenment have and confuse culture for the act of wearing a dashiki shirt (which is a shallow thing to do and no one would care if I wore one.)


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