Instincts: inborn, a compensation for what's lacking, or a combination of both?

[Aria]

Does anyone else suspect instincts are developed due to environment rather than inborn? I've noticed--and not just in my own life--that people tend to develop a dominant instinct that was lacking in their families, i.e. a household very low or ignoring of Sx would produce Sx-dom children.

I do think we're born with some inherent qualities (nature) that bend us one way or another, but it seems like nurture plays a larger role.


What do you think, and/or what were your experiences with your family of origin in regards to your dominant instinct? I'm really just curious to hear your experiences if you want to share.

[mfckrz]

They're inborn, such that people can readily construct post-facto narratives justifying how they 'became that way'.

Naturally, "lack of connection" and what not would be salient to an Sx-primary.

[Aria]

Good point, it makes sense you'd notice a lack in the thing that's most important to you. With the plasticity abilities of our brains I do sometimes wonder how much can be changed with environment, though. Any particular reason you think they're inborn vs learned?

Maybe nature is responsible for the instinct order, but nurture plays the dominant role in our levels of development or health...

[mfckrz]

With the plasticity abilities of our brains I do sometimes wonder how much can be changed with environment, though.

Human brains of course exhibit a high degree of neuroplasticity. But this has more to do with learning, acquisition of new skills, altering conditioned habits and thought patterns, etc.

Willfully directed neuroplasticity is a thing—but the directed ends chosen will be heavily implicated in one's genetic proclivities.

Rewriting basal motivations probably isn't entirely impossible, just understandably difficult… and strikes me as a morbid act of egoic self-destruction, which one should be wondering why they're bothering to do. You're better off embracing who you are and figuring out how to get what you want, rather than cauterizing yourself into changing what you want.

Any particular reason you think they're inborn vs learned?

Because they're fairly self-evident at an early age, and seemingly operate at a deeper/visceral level of interpersonal compatibility than other typological measures. It's more vital than socionics intertype relations, for instance.

And more generally speaking I'm largely a genetic determinist, as growing evidence continues to mount in favor of that outlook. We find more and more that "nurture" & "environment" are largely irrelevant; people 'become' what they were already born to be.

Maybe nature is responsible for the instinct order, but nurture plays the dominant role in our levels of development or health...

Environmental factors would certainly play a role in neurosis, i.e. when the primary instinct isn't being satisfied, or when too much demand is being placed on the tertiary instinct.

[mfckrz]

Many of my closest friendships have been out of my own quadra but share the same flow or stacking. Whereas I've had issues (the closer we got) with fellow quadramates who were either a different flow or Sx-last. I don't know if I'd say instincts are more important than intertype relations (at least for me), they're just...a totally different thing.

Stacks definitely override intertypes IME. If there's no chemistry, we're gonna have a hard time.

[lynn]

i personally think it's a response to the environment but developing very early on (in the first 1-3 years of one's life)
most of my friends follow a certain pattern when it comes to the stacking's of their parents (and siblings) and their own.
exceptionally often, they have the same flow, same subtype (e.g. mom: sx/sp (sp subtype) with son: so/sx (sx-subtype) ; mom: so/sx, dad: so/sp?, son 1: sp/so, son 2: sx/sp <- all same subtypes) and have the blindspot of the mother (usually) or their older sibling as their primary instinct.

there are lot of exceptions to this though, especially when the children have a huge age difference or children were not raised closely in early childhood by their parents, or health, environment plays into this & then also very different combinations show up. this is just my personal observations, rather than a general rule.

really all of my closest friends follow this pattern, except one of them. it doesn't apply to myself at all, too (my mother is so/sp with strong sp) and it caused a lot of strain in the relationship with my mother. and in both our cases (my friend and me) we happened to spend a lot of time with various other people in our very early childhood (or were raised by them, basically)

i have also seen twins who have different instinctual variants, btw ... i'm not sure how often this happens, though.

[Aria]

By “subtype” do you mean the person places heavy emphasis on their second instinct? I haven’t heard that term before with the instincts.

Thank you for sharing your experience; interesting what you noticed in your group of friends about having the same flow as the mother and having her blindspot as your dominant. I hadn’t noticed that before but it’s true of me. When it comes to my closest friends it’s more of a mixed bag.

At the end of the day I don't really know, but I’m an IEI as well so my brain goes, “ooh! a pattern! What can I theorize from this…” and I always like gathering more patterns from others.

[lynn]

By “subtype” do you mean the person places heavy emphasis on their second instinct? I haven’t heard that term before with the instincts.

yes, in the example given, the mom is the wanderer range of sx/sp, the son darksider so/sx. so, heavy emphasis on the secondary instinct. (the father is sx/sp wanderer as well, but they didn't live together) i've seen that quite a few times.

Thank you for sharing your experience; interesting what you noticed in your group of friends about having the same flow as the mother and having her blindspot as your dominant. I hadn’t noticed that before but it’s true of me. When it comes to my closest friends it’s more of a mixed bag.

mh, yeah, usually they take up the mother's blindspot (or primary caretaker) only when it's an only child or the oldest child. otherwise the younger children seem to orient themselves towards their older sibling (closest in age). of course, there are lot of influences which distort this, but in stable family settings i simply see this quite often (to the point where i can make small predictions about it and end up being right) ... instead of being completely random. but i would assume that might not be the only pattern, maybe sometimes children try to fill the gap of what is missing and are not necessarily influenced by just one person, but a whole family dynamic or physical constraints, environment, etc.

[Computer Loser]

instinct- they're innate behaviors in response to the environment. requires no teaching/learning. ex: because a baby can't protect itself, it was designed to cry as a protection mechanism.

compensation- doesn't necessarily involve innate behaviors. most likely involves teaching/learning ex: ugly gremlin can't get dates because he scares people. he compensates by getting really rich and famous by learning how to manage his money and be cool

[Aria]

I like that distinction. Maybe I should have phrased my original question to ask why one instinct dominates over the others. I do think the instincts--all 3 of them--are innate like you said, present in every person since they are born.

[Neokortex]

well it appears that both me and my (only) brother are Sx/Sps. Except that he (probably an ISTP) has got more friends than I do (at home but from what we've heard, not abroad where he works), somehow. We have two uncles from both sides of the family that appear to be Sp/Sxs... one is more introverted, stronger on the Sp, he has this Steven Segal/Bruce Willis facial poise, callous/encrusted (maliciously doubting, ridiculing) on the surface but he still has a heart buried deeper down. The other is an ENTP Sp/Sx 5w6, he's lighter on the Sp, his Sp comes through more like this nervousness about the future, such as buying survival related manuals. He also has some of this cutting, biting negativity but he's better with jokes. Anyways, as a 4, I actually tend to blame it all on my mom. Both parents fit your theory to an extent because they're both So/Sp, except my mom is a "high range" So/Sp with stronger Sp and an 8 or Sx. That means, as an ISTJ she is less outgoing that has worsened over the years, slowly losing touch with family acquaintances and burying herself in her tv couch (yet keeping in touch with the world through media). I feel that she hasn't taught us proper socialization skills, empathy (for being cold, aloof, having more like "cognitive empathy," faking care). The rest of the family is pretty much some variety of So/Sp.

Plus, Sp/Sx aside, both my uncles seem to be more grounded in the social. One is the CEO of a company, so as @peteronfireee wrote, he's the "ugly gremlin," or as it is often portrayed in films, the stereotypically greedy, avaricious, as well as self-contented toad of a company leader (or illuminati money badger), so I think that does require people skills. Over the years, he's been losing a lot of weight by getting serious about a strict regime of exercises. My other uncle, on the other hand, is still round, rounder than before, yet even in spite of not having much friends, according to his relating, he's in good terms with his work colleagues, has at times joined drinking outings. Plus, he's a lot more in touch with current news, especially news that relates to his profession.

Around my teenage years my dad noticed me isolating the neighbor's boy to make him my audience - I would expound to him in length and would be possessive of him, not share his friendship with my brother (and would later do that with another guy). It quickly became clear that this is also how my ENTP uncle would do his 1-on-1 long presentations, pulling me aside, talking my ears off with conspiracy theories and politics as he does it today, still. So me "Sx transmitting"/spouting to more subordinate people (e.g. the neighbor friend is ISFJ 9w1) could've been a learned behavior (there was/is also this intimacy focus to it as I wanted to get a more detailed description of their sexual experiences for my theories on how it works). But where did my uncle get it from? It's simple! His parents, that is, my grandparents were teachers so they (So/Sp, my grandpa is an INTJ, so that could be where he inherited his "5w6" from) were probably doing the same unidirectional lecturing to him at home too (as still does my grandpa to me, although he's more of a preachy So/Sp 1, talking from familial authority).

I guess the rebellious side of my Sx/Sp 6 is owed to my ESTP dad because of his tertiary Sp/So 2w3 that I learned not to trust the hard way: his violent temper did often penetrate that sugardaddy facade that I learned to anticipate when he was getting too good with us (hence my focus on the underbelly aspects of a personality).

so honestly, i don't know if this is genetics or nurture but I'm still chronically high'n'dry without a supportive group friends.

[Aria]

Appreciate you sharing. Social issues could definitely be the result of not having healthy Social modeled for you--sometimes So-firsts have a difficult a time in that area like Social-lasts, it's just that Social-firsts focus a lot more attention on it since it's their dominant instinct. It sounds like you didn't have many healthy "middle-ground" models (someone who is Social-second, for example, is often healthy in this instinct although of course they can have issues, too).

so honestly, i don't know if this is genetics or nurture but I'm still chronically high'n'dry without a supportive group friends.

I think nurture influences genetics over time; maybe it's impossible to really separate them. The biblical idea of "generational curses" or the "sins of the father" is actually supported by genetic research (using different language, of course). For example, trauma or abuse that isn't dealt with tends to manifest in psychological/emotional disorders, and those disorders do run in families or even geographical communities (my dad's side of the family have a running theme of obsessive-compulsive disorder).

I find hope in that as much as we can be hurt by relationships we can also be healed by them. I've benefited tremendously from close friendships to people who have a healthy relationship with Sx--those people quite literally changed my life and I'll always be grateful to them for showing me a healthier way.

[Neokortex]

Appreciate you sharing. Social issues could definitely be the result of not having healthy Social modeled for you--sometimes So-firsts have a difficult a time in that area like Social-lasts, it's just that Social-firsts focus a lot more attention on it since it's their dominant instinct. It sounds like you didn't have many healthy "middle-ground" models (someone who is Social-second, for example, is often healthy in this instinct although of course they can have issues, too).


I think nurture influences genetics over time; maybe it's impossible to really separate them. The biblical idea of "generational curses" or the "sins of the father" is actually supported by genetic research (using different language, of course). For example, trauma or abuse that isn't dealt with tends to manifest in psychological/emotional disorders, and those disorders do run in families or even geographical communities (my dad's side of the family have a running theme of obsessive-compulsive disorder).

I find hope in that as much as we can be hurt by relationships we can also be healed by them. I've benefited tremendously from close friendships to people who have a healthy relationship with Sx--those people quite literally changed my life and I'll always be grateful to them for showing me a healthier way.

I've actually had once a psychiatrist do this "experimental" healing on me... now as I look back, he must've been an INFJ too... I was laying on my back, eyes closed and he gave instructions what to imagine, what to do with that and to report what I see. So there was this long familial intergenerational lineage where I had to look for the 'dark spots,' to clean them up by getting these sequential family members make peace with each other. There were some weird stuff happening there and then.

Anyways, I'm curios, what's an unhealthy Sx for an INFJ? I've only met one once and she was... eeerh, she has literally freaked me out (me, as a social heart type). She must've been an E2 Sx, that's how I got into interaction with her. I wager the unhealthiness of the dominant Sx is actually owed to the neglect of the Sp? Oh yeah, and what made me curious is that you write your close friendships helped you balance your dominant Sx out because they had a "healthy relationship with [their] Sx." I'm not exactly sure what that means for So/Sps, but my experience is that I've never or seldom have I ever seen two Sx-aux persons or Sp/Sos in one room.

[Aria]

So there was this long familial intergenerational lineage where I had to look for the 'dark spots,' to clean them up by getting these sequential family members make peace with each other. There were some weird stuff happening there and then.

That does sound rather INFJ-ish. Was it helpful?

Anyways, I'm curios, what's an unhealthy Sx for an INFJ?

It manifests similarly to any other Sx-dom, but the introverted variety tend to have less need for lots of risky experiences and sensory stimulation than the extroverts. It's possible to retreat into the inner world or one specific obsessive area of interest. The Sx laser beam can be just as focused inwardly as outwardly (whereas Social is mostly focused outwards). Attachment and identity issues are common.

Also, since Sx is about creation/transmitting/leaving your mark behind, I become down if not producing something that feels like "me." I become worried about my career--not so much for self-pres or social reasons, but because I question if it's truly "who I am." There's an underlying drive for my career to reflect who I am, otherwise I feel rather robotic and like I'm not making any sort of meaningful impact in others' lives (there's definitely NF idealism in there mixed with the Social instinct). Another sign I'm headed for "robot mode" is when I'm not keeping up my favorite passions/hobbies. In that case I tend to just become sad (almost without noticing) and significantly lacking in energy.

Oh yeah, and what made me curious is that you write your close friendships helped you balance your dominant Sx out because they had a "healthy relationship with [their] Sx." I'm not exactly sure what that means for So/Sps, but my experience is that I've never or seldom have I ever seen two Sx-aux persons or Sp/Sos in one room.

Maybe So/Sps look for So-aux people because they see an ease of connection and relating to others that makes them feel safe/seen/included. Social doms need to feel that they have a "place" with others. This seems true in my friendships with them.

With an So/Sx and Sp/So married couple I've observed that he (Sp/So) significantly grounds her and introduces an easier flow into their interactions with others. She appears very nervous and chatty in groups (she's the extrovert) and will often look to him when she doesn't know what to say or is searching for the right thing to say.

[Neokortex]

With an So/Sx and Sp/So married couple I've observed that he (Sp/So) significantly grounds her and introduces an easier flow into their interactions with others. She appears very nervous and chatty in groups (she's the extrovert) and will often look to him when she doesn't know what to say or is searching for the right thing to say.

Yes, this sounds interesting. I actually need that grounding, someone to help tone down and synchronize my flow with that of the "calm," "nonchalant," "open but distant" social types. You meant a more positive "nervousness," right? As in excited, bubbly but not the neurotic kind of agitation. I've actually seen that "positive" nervousness on my childhood INTJ friend... well, sorta. I think he's an So/Sx 4, he's prone to these dramatic/theatric flourishes. I guess I have both positive and both anxiety kind of nervousness.

+Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. Might be a corroboration for the genetic hypothesis: in 1st grade, elementary school I was not quite fitting in. That would be the first instance of the many non-conformity issues but particularly then I was acting a lot like a clown.

To me school didn't feel right, I remember being very withdrawn in kindergarten but in school I somehow felt that... I'm in the wrong crowd? I don't know... something about feeling out of league with the rest. I wasn't paying attention during classes, I developed a conscience for grades only later. I did my own act when fooling around, imitating "The Mask" (cartoon), I didn't make any friends or confidantes. In the 2nd grade they scheduled me with the school psychologist and she had somehow appeased me, so by the 4th grade I switched over to being Mr. Pedantic, even to a degree of slight snobbery. Remember the teacher once praising me in front of the class and asking me up once to explain grammar (I was good at languages). But I also remember that my classmates where the ones filling me in at the end of 3rd grade about my good average, moving forward "in the ranks" of who's the best student, I wasn't keeping up with that hierarchy. By then I had had two consecutive friends and they were the ones introducing new people to me, not vice versa - I just followed them and didn't make friends with their crowd.

So I calmed down by the end of 4th grade but then I moved schools and then again I had problems fitting in... but this time I was only avoiding the "gang" during breaks, which has lead to minor confrontations.

To be fair, though, I was also practicing my own "covert warfare" against them, for instance, before one language exam I volunteered to remove the grammar aid/diagram posters from the wall, bringing their hatred on me.

So my parents would send me to another school psychologist (kinda like Henry Rollins was sent to a correctional school) but after a year or two it would calm down. The 3rd time I moved schools conformity issues started again...

...and I would continue to go against the grain but in high school I started acting out big time. This time it was a sort of a hypochondria, I was avoiding a certain stimulus because I intellectualized it to be unhealthy so after the psychologists at that school didn't help, I was then sent to the psychiatrist.

That does sound rather INFJ-ish. Was it helpful?

No, but the meds calmed me down, along with gifting me with some extra pounds. D That was, btw, more than a decade ago, it still takes longer to fit in, e.g. with my current working class colleagues but this initial two months so far was okay

relative to another company where I got myself fired after a few days by deliberately going against a protocol, also for "health" reasons.

.

It manifests similarly to any other Sx-dom, but the introverted variety tend to have less need for lots of risky experiences and sensory stimulation than the extroverts. It's possible to retreat into the inner world or one specific obsessive area of interest. The Sx laser beam can be just as focused inwardly as outwardly (whereas Social is mostly focused outwards). Attachment and identity issues are common.

Also, since Sx is about creation/transmitting/leaving your mark behind, I become down if not producing something that feels like "me." I become worried about my career--not so much for self-pres or social reasons, but because I question if it's truly "who I am." There's an underlying drive for my career to reflect who I am, otherwise I feel rather robotic and like I'm not making any sort of meaningful impact in others' lives (there's definitely NF idealism in there mixed with the Social instinct).

Aye-aye captain Picard, we have the alien ship in our Sx laser beam sight. xDDD Naaa, you don't sound like an Sx/So to me because of the syn-flow and straightforwardness, less playfulness. Also, I think my wish to leave an impact is more of my social side, the part of myself wounded by ostracism (the "So/Sp 4w3" vanity), you know, to leave a suicide note proving others (wrong) how big of a genius I had always been but unrecognized. Publishing a book before I die that explains how our world is mostly a closed system (and thus everyone is a zombie), something I was able to intuit or transcend with my great intellect (E6). Yet, the actual impact I make is not something premeditated... Sx is not about wanting to make an impact consciously, it's more about the endless struggle of one having to assert their intimate self against a "normalizing," "ordering into templates" society of tacit complicity. I don't Sx transmit by starting a forum reply by thinking about this mini-novel I'm going to write that other person... I'm just writing myself in a desperation to come across, to not be misunderstood. The So/Sps, Sp/Sos, however, seem to have this builder streak to them... they want to produce stuff, perhaps to materialize their dignity, to create a tangible proof that they have transcended their instincts for the greater good of the whole. I mean, in our times of endless "content creation," I'm not even sure if I can have a voice distinct; the surfeit of it is just ridiculous. So then I end up feeling bad for how long of a reply I had just actually written.

[The Reality Denialist]

My first instinct would be to go Singu on instincts but meh.

I still don't understand this. Is this surface phenomena that I don't observe (as typical)? If so it sounds incredibly Ni/Se valuing specswise. Anyway, if this how people approach you and stuff of those sorts I think at least couple of styles can be present or just singular in some cases. [It happens]