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Thread: What is the purpose of Ti role?

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    Default What is the purpose of Ti role?

    I have sometimes wondered what the point of Ti role in EII is? How can it be / be made to be a useful thing? I have noticed that ILEs, for instance, are exceedingly good at making use of various laws and legal complexities, like even to the extent of employing lawyers, police and negotiators in civil matters and matters of property/ownership, something which I personally see as either too severe or too serious to bring down on someone just like that. Yet, the ILE i know who made use of these systems went on to successfully protect their own interest in this case.

    Something like FI humanity holds me back in cases of protecting my own self interest, yet could Ti tie in with Fi somehow without having to end up needing SE and *without* violating Fi?

    Does Ti role in ESI work any differently than in EII?

    Last edited by Delilah; 06-19-2019 at 06:48 AM.

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    Role functions exist as a cover up for your lead function, in situations where you dont know if your lead function will be accepted. Its strengths is 2 dimensional, meaning that you are aware of what the generally accepted norms are in this field, and nothing else. Ti role might coupled with the creative function might SEEM to be the persons real personality at first glance (e.g. EII can act like "mini-ILEs") in situations where theyre unsure of being accepted, but sooner or later they will drop the act and youll see the Fi coming up.

    Duals will unconsciously help you in your role functions department as this is their ignoring function. Theyll largely not use the function for themselves (LSEs Ti is ignoring) but might use it in situations to "fill up" or redirect you in your role function, generally preferring their lead over your role. They wont apply pressure on this function as they dont value it at all, might laugh as they see you try to use it and then go fix it with their lead function for you.

    As for differences between ESI and EII, according to gulenko theres a + and - version of each information element. ESIs have -Fi and +Se, so theyll also have -Ti. (act like mini SLE)
    EII have +Fi and -Ne, so their Ti is +Ti. Otherwise, there would be no difference as both their Ti is 2D

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    They will try to follow the system. In some cases can even function as in lead position (assuming the organization is right one and people are co-operative) although they might build up too much stress.

    I'd draw the parallel with LSI here.
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    Ti-role doesn't serve a purpose: when it's used the consequences are usually not very good, not for the person temselves, nor for the recipients. This applies to any IE expressed in the role function. E.g. take a look at the role-Ne of someone like Alex Jones. And you better not run into an IEE or ILE resorting to Se, because its use will be disproportional and destructive.
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    The Ti-classification comprises observations associated with a specific form of rationalization, which by itself (without input) couldn't produce output. As the output component of an information processing system, it cannot be solely held responsible for making use of anything specific or holding anyone back. The ego does not have 8 factory sections to which distinct roles and production lines can be assigned. There's an overlap between Fi and Ti in that certain algorithms are both F and T in nature so under certain very restricted conditions, some types become indistinguishable from one another. Behaviour is normally different between ESI and EII because input is usually different; rationalization could be identical but one can only rationalize that which one sees.

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    to process Ti related information
    the place in model A adds a style how this is done. this does not change the essence

    > FI humanity holds me back in cases of protecting my own self interest

    any function relates to your own interests equally. also a part of your own interests are interests of other people. you do not live independently from them and they influence on you by their actions, by your emotions, etc.
    as people more prefer to take into account valued regions - they notice own and others' interests there better

    > could Ti tie in with Fi somehow without having to end up needing SE and *without* violating Fi

    Ti is about logical links between the facts. The better you understand Ti related - the better you may live in this world and to feel it as more emotionally comfortable (Fi).

    There is no violation and all functions are needed. T and F are opposing functions but also complementing ones. Your psyche can't keep the attention in the same moment on T and F - that's why the functions are opposing. But you need to process the both functions good to be adequat.
    You calculate by T not for calculations, but to feel emotionally better by F in the life. And also to feel emotionally good you need to think logically to understand the world correctly, to act better in it. The similar is with values - you need for living Ti and Te. You just are more adopted (due to distortion of your psyche by Jung's type) to use only one of them, - it's more pleasant for you to use one of T, but you need them both equally.

    in Socionics as complementing to Fi is called Te. but it's a simplification to explain IR effects
    all 8 functions are not to violate each other but to complement, as all 8 are needed equally to live

    > does Ti role in ESI work any differently than in EII

    not in classical theory

    you need to read theory's basics. you don't know them or can't understand what you read

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    They will try to follow the system. In some cases can even function as in lead position (assuming the organization is right one and people are co-operative) although they might build up too much stress.

    I'd draw the parallel with LSI here.
    Hi, that sounds like it should make sense. Could you maybe elaborate on how that plays out? Also, i' m curious why you think a comparison with LSI would be beneficial? I was comparing with ILE going by the assumption that they share a few dichotomies and thinking style as well shared Ne in ego. The LSIs seem quite different to me, they are ST club so quite far removed from EIIs. Perhaps you had good reason to make your suggestion? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Hi, that sounds like it should make sense. Could you maybe elaborate on how that plays out? Also, i' m curious why you think a comparison with LSI would be beneficial? I was comparing with ILE going by the assumption that they share a few dichotomies and thinking style as well shared Ne in ego. The LSIs seem quite different to me, they are ST club so quite far removed from EIIs. Perhaps you had good reason to make your suggestion? Thanks.
    For instance I think lot of LSI's gravitate towards bureaucratic administrative positions something like being head of the laboratory that conducts environmental measurements etc.

    Likewise when EII has gathered trust in their inner circle they might take similar position (being a principal teacher for kids with special needs).
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Ti-role doesn't serve a purpose: when it's used the consequences are usually not very good, not for the person temselves, nor for the recipients. This applies to any IE expressed in the role function. E.g. take a look at the role-Ne of someone like Alex Jones. And you better not run into an IEE or ILE resorting to Se, because its use will be disproportional and destructive.
    Hmm, well if you don't mind me saying for instance i notice inconsistencies and contradictions very easily and pick up on those quickly, yet i hardly ever point those out to others since I don't think it a priority. So, all in all, it does serve a purpose in that it clarifies my thinking / position/ or shows the weakness in the position/ thinking of another, these are mental notes just for me internally. So i guess it offers me ....something, but it seems to be strictly for my own personal consideration, so to speak. Now, how could this be put to some use, in a way? Does this make sense?

    So like, in your case, i'm sure you 'get something " - for lack of a better way of putting it - from Se, but it might just be a personal awareness. I dunno, but perhaps you could share more? Thanks.

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    To create pain.
    “I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
    To create pain.
    Perhaps this applies to all manifestations of the role function in general.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Role functions exist as a cover up for your lead function, in situations where you dont know if your lead function will be accepted. Its strengths is 2 dimensional, meaning that you are aware of what the generally accepted norms are in this field, and nothing else. Ti role might coupled with the creative function might SEEM to be the persons real personality at first glance (e.g. EII can act like "mini-ILEs") in situations where theyre unsure of being accepted, but sooner or later they will drop the act and youll see the Fi coming up.

    Duals will unconsciously help you in your role functions department as this is their ignoring function. Theyll largely not use the function for themselves (LSEs Ti is ignoring) but might use it in situations to "fill up" or redirect you in your role function, generally preferring their lead over your role. They wont apply pressure on this function as they dont value it at all, might laugh as they see you try to use it and then go fix it with their lead function for you.

    As for differences between ESI and EII, according to gulenko theres a + and - version of each information element. ESIs have -Fi and +Se, so theyll also have -Ti. (act like mini SLE)
    EII have +Fi and -Ne, so their Ti is +Ti. Otherwise, there would be no difference as both their Ti is 2D

    http://i.imgur.com/WIpurA1.jpg
    Wow.

    I've recently been in a self-typing Heck and it took for me to find this message to figure out what I'd been missing.
    There's been several times that I've communicated with people (in a way that is likely using Ti sub-consciously) with certain people, but it felt like I was kind of being 'stifled'. Like I could talk to them about things more
    personal to me, but inside it feels like I don't know if they will think it's too forward of me to do it or not.

    There's likely a social-anxiety aspect to it, too, but I never noticed it until now that I might have been using Ti to stifle Fi, and not the other way around.

    Related to that, I sometimes feel like I don't actually understand things as logically as an LII typically would be able to. A lot of system-based knowledge eludes me pretty often, so I wondered if I was actually just a 'bad' LII.

    If so that would clear *a lot* of things up for me, almost like a revelation.

    Anyone please let me know if I'm barking up the wrong tree here, though.

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    Role function, as the name said, it's self-explanatory. It covers the mistakes that base may have made to penetrate others by switching to another premise of thinking and or perceiving (depends on which base), and that's the role function. In some cases, they might appear to use it as their base function but since the awareness of this function's understanding is limited to 2D, you can't hope that much from this other than trying to follow the rules of this function by its Experience + Norms to do what base can't do in approaching the others.

    Ti-role, in some cases, also makes some few logical "demonstrations/plays" on level-surface at the first glance for example.
    Last edited by Metaphor; 02-19-2022 at 05:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deductive View Post
    Role function, as the name said, it's self-explanatory.It covers the mistakes that base may have made to penetrate others by switching to another premise of thinking and or perceiving (depends on which base), and that's the role function. In some cases, they might appear to use it as their base function but since the awareness of this function's understanding is limited to 2D, you can't hope that much from this other than trying to follow the rules of this function by its Experience + Norms to do what base can't do in approaching the others.

    Ti-role, in some cases, also makes some few logical "demonstrations/plays" on level-surface at the first glance for example.
    Yeah, this makes sense. I guess in the case of seeing the term "role-function", it makes sense in a general way, but noticing it in yourself is what's tricky.

    Quite often when I make logical assertions, I'm internally not really that confident in myself, unless it's pointing something out that seems really obvious to me that someone overlooked/didn't consider. I kind of nervously expect to be called out on my reasoning, in case I end up saying something that's not correct, so when I state other logical connections, I'll rarely declare them as a certainty.

    I don't know, that may be the case for some Ti-Ego types too, so I could very well be wrong there.

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    Hm, if you have ever read Strati's descriptions about both LII and LSI, she often emphasized the "moral judgment" as a part of Ti-ego when it's actually a sort of delayed effects coming from the Fi role as they discerned what it means to be a "moral" person that is expected to norms as their part of judgmental influence as a "lawful neutral" kind of person when they really aren't that judgmental, but rather just rigorous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deductive View Post
    Hm, if you have ever read Strati's descriptions about both LII and LSI, she often emphasized the "moral judgment" as a part of Ti-ego when it's actually a sort of delayed effects coming from the Fi role as they discerned what it means to be a "moral" person that is expected to norms as their part of judgmental influence as a "lawful neutral" kind of person when they really aren't that judgmental, but rather just rigorous.
    This makes sense to me. In retrospect, if Ti-ego itself really was a bigger part of 'moral judgements' then ILEs/SLEs probably wouldn't have the reputation of being 'incompetent at ethics' because (I imagine) they would have a much easier time reconciling ethical norms with their logic as well.

    EDIT: I didn't bring it up before because it slipped my mind, but part of the reason I think I may not be a logical type is because I think my Te is trash. It is hard for me to gauge how strong it actually is, but I know
    that when it comes to dealing with different things that *are* Te related (finances, business management, etc.) I feel pretty out of my depth. I don't yet really know for sure if it's because I don't value it, or if I do and I'm just not good with it.

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    I've seen my EII classmate using Ti as a tool to understand instead of using Te

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    I have sometimes wondered what the point of Ti role in EII is? How can it be / be made to be a useful thing? I have noticed that ILEs, for instance, are exceedingly good at making use of various laws and legal complexities, like even to the extent of employing lawyers, police and negotiators in civil matters and matters of property/ownership, something which I personally see as either too severe or too serious to bring down on someone just like that. Yet, the ILE i know who made use of these systems went on to successfully protect their own interest in this case.

    Something like FI humanity holds me back in cases of protecting my own self interest, yet could Ti tie in with Fi somehow without having to end up needing SE and *without* violating Fi?

    Does Ti role in ESI work any differently than in EII?
    Hm, so many questions...

    0.0 - What is the purpose of Ti role?

    "The individual is able to talk about things from a dispassionate academic or theoretical point of view for brief periods of time, but seems overly bookish when doing so and tends to grows tense."

    In other words, they suddenly fulfill their role as a teacher archetype in the society. And as a purpose, this means they tends to be theoretical and oriented to academic at one point, but when they get criticized, they either dismiss it or take it to heart. However, this role is necessarily needed to cover their inconsistency in judgment - not to mention they have almost a non-existent Te - which also is alluded into their ethics. Furthermore, role function, as the name suggests, is a roleplaying function.

    1.1 - what the point of Ti role in EII is?

    It's not easy for EII to apply LSI's cold logic fully, but they need this element to function for adding more consistency to their judgment.

    1.2 - How can it be / be made to be a useful thing?

    Ti role's usage is mostly related to their Fi, which means they apply logic to manipulate facts and preserve the current relationship.

    2.1 - could Ti tie in with Fi somehow without having to end up needing SE and *without* violating Fi?

    I don't really understand the question but if I were to assume, each element works to each other (this is why it's called IME) since it's more about metabolism process than being an independent element to function. So, for example, Ti in EII could tie with Fi, but also need Se in the process without violating or, in other words, contradicting their Fi's ethical principle as well.

    2.2 - Does Ti role in ESI work any differently than in EII?

    Yes. and if EII uses LSI's Ti, ESI uses LII's Ti but still, it's weaker by usage akin to their Super-Ego relation.
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."

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    I'm not really sure that people really do use their superego functions or that the role function is a "role" function, but I don't know, so maybe. Like, for example, I've met cops that seemed FiSe and even though I might have idealized them at one point when I was a kid and even thought how great it would be to be a cop and "make the world better", I wouldn't like the seriousness of being a cop normally. It's almost like constantly slapping yourself to act a way that isn't naturally. I say this because I was in the military (and didn't realize at the time that it is predominantly Te/Fi dominated/focused) and always felt out of place or like people took everything wayyyy too seriously. Example - I once drew a small dick on our chalkboard in the barracks at like 2am just to see what people would think when they walked in (I was on all night guard duty, or "doodie" as I always called it and I was bored as hell because they would let us do anything except watch people) and an NCO saw it and flipped his shit and wanted to wake everyone up and have them in formation to find out who did it...and I was like no no no, I'll just erase it, then it's gone, don't worry, all is good, just go to bed, I'll keep a "vigilant" eye, don't worry...goodnight...ugh.

    What has helped me with Fi indirectly is learning to have more fluid conversation with Fe by not being so analytical, but almost more critical or criticizing but in a playful or more fun way, not in an ILI I-hate-everything-about-you way (kind of like John Malkovich on Space Force - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFJm_5YT__w who I think plays a really well-done EIE lol). But obviously that's never quite enough for Fi types because you still need to care about or read and understand their Fi stuffs (and I know I seem condescending about Fi, but I have a hard time with it and it frustrates me when I get the cold shoulder or unsympathetic-pick-yourself-up-this-isn't-a-problem when I just want someone to vent to lol).

    Using the role or even superego in general just seems like trying to pretend I have a giant cock, but it's actually a small micropenis and everyone knows it and thinks it's ridiculous...right?...did that make sense? I may or may not have a micropenis by the way...

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    Non-valued functions are backing valued functions. Suggestive is able to absorb large amounts of information because it almost does not process them, but accepts them as they are. Role function is the minimum filter for suggestive, which is able to quickly check the information for accuracy. Accordingly, role Ti is for checking what lie other people want to sell you, searching for inconsistencies, oddities and other staff.

    In addition, role Ti is a way to say "No" and refuse doing something that is not profitable for you, referring to the rules, laws, regulations, etc. That is, the "role-playing game" is that when you dont like what you are given in terms of your valued functions, you begin to portray a different type.

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