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Thread: Cognitive functions applied to language learning versus language construction

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    Default Cognitive functions applied to language learning versus language construction

    What cognitive functions are used in learning a language? Either learning a language as a child or as an adult. And what are the cognitive functions used for constructing a language like Servant of God Martin Schleyer did with Volapük?

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    Based on my hunch I'd say:
    Mostly + for learning a language... but or users can develop the need to learn a new language to communicate with other people in their native language.

    Constructing a new language seems a very based motivation, especially if there is no practical need for it.

    and is most likely, but and is also plausible, especially for the use in fiction.
    J.R.R. Tolkien developed new languages for his Lord of the Rings novels,
    also the Klingon language in Star Treck, both based, in my view.

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    Agreeableness towards surrounding rules while manipulating the message. Thus some say that NF's learn languages easily.


    In terms of expression dynamic > static.


    Pure linguistics is a thing in itself.
    Then there is Ithkuil which minimizes ambiguities. I imagine that it would favor logical types https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ithkuil
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    studing of talking language among those who talks on it - F
    studing by books - by rules - Ti

    a language is abstract - it uses terms, so N types should study it better
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    a language is abstract - it uses terms, so N types should study it better
    Honestly, I doubt it. Talented novelists that had or have weak intuition exists.

    A statistic what types are professional language translators might show some evidence.

    Furthermore, most humans learn language easier when they're younger, but cognitive functions should get more mature with age.

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    I've made the observation that Beta NF types learn languages faster than other types. I've observed many IEI and EIE who know 3-5 languages. My personal opinion is that Ni helps a lot with learning languages. Delta ST types seem to have difficulties with languages. I've also been wondering if children use Ni more often, regardless of their sociotype. it could explain why they learn languages faster and have more fantasies and a higher imagination than adults, but that's just an intuitive guess that I made while writing this post

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    Speaking for myself:
    I'm not that gifted at learning new languages anymore... I was better at that when I was younger.

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    an example would be learning japanese. it's very difficult to learn each kanji on its own, but it helps to have a short story for each sign in your mind. this is definitely an example of how Ni helps with learning a language.

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    Ok, but a practical language is about community shared definitions of words and expressions, which doesn't seem that much to me.
    For learning graphic characters there seams two ways to me, but both require to learn shape and form of every character.

    There are different cognitive functions involved when you learn a new language, and likely different functions for the spoken form and the written form.

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    you can try type the guys who invented Esperanto.

    btw a language is made of many elements, there's N and S, each word contains the essence of the object somehow, and it's delivered in a sound or form that renders the object itself. there's T and F, from the structure of a language to the optimal ways to deliver a message, and the profound social impact that communicating naturally implies.

    there are many ways of communicating too, there's who knows all the grammatical rules and a lot of words and can't engage in a normal conversation, and there's who instead knows more colloquial terms and use them to create real connections. there's who learns a language and develops computer programs, who writes amazing pieces of poetry or prose (which require different skills), and there's who can't read nor write but can engage an audience for 2 hours with some story...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    you can try type the guys who invented Esperanto.
    Ludwik Zamenhof is the guy you're asking for. Don't know much about him, but from what I know he could be LII.

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    btw a language is made of many elements, there's N and S, each word contains the essence of the object somehow...
    Language is more complex, it contains also abstract definitions, I wouldn't call it essence.
    Many words are just definitions. Keep in mind that in history there was no single person who created an entire language.
    In most cases it's just an agreement how to name real abjects and their properties... and find words for acitivties. Activities are actually more abstract than objects... Activities are called verbs in languages... and the properties are called adjectives.
    And of course every practical language have words to express sensations, emotions and feelings... only computer languages lack these terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    and it's delivered in a sound or form that renders the object itself.
    That's true for some words in some languages, but not all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    there's T and F, from the structure of a language to the optimal ways to deliver a message, and the profound social impact that communicating naturally implies.


    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    there are many ways of communicating too, there's who knows all the grammatical rules and a lot of words...
    Yes, but grammatical rules are for perfectionists... the message itself can be understood most of the time even if the grammar isn't perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    ...and there's who instead knows more colloquial terms and use them to create real connections.
    In other words someone like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    there's who learns a language and develops computer programs, who writes amazing pieces of poetry or prose (which require different skills)...
    Logical skills: computer program
    Ethical skills: poetry

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    ...and there's who can't read nor write but can engage an audience for 2 hours with some story...
    Someone who is good with , most likely.

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    Logical skills computer program | Ethical skills: poetry


    Forgive me for asking, but how is a computer program different from poetry? I mean, both seem like they're describing internal structure.

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    It is important to define a language. For many Chinese vast majority Europeans speaks the same language. It is relatively easy to study something that belongs to the same language group.


    It does not take much to decipher lots of Dutch if you can read English and Swedish (even better would be if you can read German...). Are they really separate languages?
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    You need to learn the rules and the intended message, so T,F,N all facets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    I've made the observation that Beta NF types learn languages faster than other types. I've observed many IEI and EIE who know 3-5 languages. My personal opinion is that Ni helps a lot with learning languages. Delta ST types seem to have difficulties with languages. I've also been wondering if children use Ni more often, regardless of their sociotype. it could explain why they learn languages faster and have more fantasies and a higher imagination than adults, but that's just an intuitive guess that I made while writing this post
    Adolf Hitler was a Beta NF and had a noted difficulty learning languages.

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    it's just an observation I've made. I'm not saying that it applies to every NF type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPrincipleTwo View Post
    Forgive me for asking, but how is a computer program different from poetry?
    Different intention and message

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPrincipleTwo View Post
    I mean, both seem like they're describing internal structure.
    I guess you've read other poetry than I have so far.

    And now some homework for you: Watch the movie – Dead Poets Society
    ...and you'll learn more about the intention of poetry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    It is important to define a language. For many Chinese vast majority Europeans speaks the same language. It is relatively easy to study something that belongs to the same language group.
    Most european languages are somewhat related to each other... languages from other continents are much different, because of the longer duration of isolated development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    It does not take much to decipher lots of Dutch if you can read English and Swedish (even better would be if you can read German...). Are they really separate languages?
    There are three main language families in Europe: Germanic languages, Romance languages and Slavic Languages.
    Dutch and English are of Germanic origin,
    Spanish and Italian are of Romance origin,
    Polish and Hungarian are of Slavic origin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Adolf Hitler was a Beta NF and had a noted difficulty learning languages.
    There are exceptions to the rule, ofc.
    Last edited by WinnieW; 06-12-2019 at 06:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Most european languages are somewhat related to each other... languages from other continents are much different, because of the longer duration of isolated development.


    There are three main language families in Europe: Germanic languages, Romance languages and Slavic Languages.
    Dutch and English are of Germanic origin,
    Spanish and Italian are of Romance origin,
    Polish and Hungarian are of Slavic origin.

    Let's add the word Indo -European before European and I could agree. As native Finnic speaker that stuff is pretty strange. It is like if you made me learn Estonian or one of Sami languages, Veps or even Karelian (that would be a joke to treat it as separate but it is classified as such) before we could compare. However I do know a Brit who speaks Finnish like a native and that is a huge exception.
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    This video is dedicated to you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Most european languages are somewhat related to each other... languages from other continents are much different, because of the longer duration of isolated development.


    There are three main language families in Europe: Germanic languages, Romance languages and Slavic Languages.
    Dutch and English are of Germanic origin,
    Spanish and Italian are of Romance origin,
    Polish and Hungarian are of Slavic origin.



    There are exceptions to the rule, ofc.
    It's probably NTR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    This video is dedicated to you.

    BTW Hungarian is not slavic origin. It as an Uralicorigin language has preserved very distant similarities with Finnish. Some of its sentences with very archaic words in written form make sense if I try hard enough... almost. At least it is certainly not Indo-European and has some pretty distant similarities with Finnish grammar.
    https://histdoc.net/sounds/hungary.html
    Last edited by Troll Nr 007; 06-12-2019 at 10:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    BTW Hungarian is not slavic origin.
    Yeah, I confused the countries. Originally I wanted to write Slovacia... but then... oh well

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    I want to learn so many languages but there's so little time.
    Grammar and verbs + tenses are a pain in the ass for every language.
    I can understand french a little bit but only when it's written > spoken.
    I want no learn French (get better at it, rather), Polish, Russian, Italian, probably Welsh simply because it sounds like Eldritch.

    "If we are able to put in 10 hours a day to learn a language, then basic fluency in the easy languages should take 48 days, and for difficult languages 72 days. Accounting for days off, this equates to two months or three months time. If you only put in five hours a day, it will take twice as long."
    4w3 7w6 9w1 so/sx

    "You see, there are still faint glimmers of civilization left in this barbaric slaughterhouse that was once known as humanity. Indeed that's what we provide in our own modest, humble, insignificant... oh, fuck it."

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    There is no or involved in learning a language. At least not directly.

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    To my impression there is sensing involved in learning to speak a language and to handwrite letters of a language.

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    the best way to learn a language is the method used by children: experience (S). that's why learning a lang in school can be problematic, it's one thing to read lists of words and sentences and use your imagination to recreate those scenarios (N), it's another if you're directly involved in the process and need to say "I need that piece of paper to write my homework".

    then your brain will use the real elements under your eyes (S) to create associations with other elements (N), and their emotional and practical content becomes an ingrained part of language (FT).

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