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Thread: [Psyche-Yoga] Denunciation of Attitudinal Psyche based on bad sexta descriptions

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    Default [Psyche-Yoga] Denunciation of Attitudinal Psyche based on bad sexta descriptions

    This is sarcastic and isn't nice, but I wouldn't say it's trolling. I wish I hadn't wasted time with this theory. Basically, I'm going to denounce the Attitudinal Psyche theory on grounds that the way in which the sextas are described is feeble and insipid, perhaps even more so than horoscopes. You can delete this post if you must but in my opinion, if you look at the theory through the descriptions of sextas, everything else falls apart, too.

    ••• Sexta 1 on the16types.info:


    "Generally, this sexta is characterised by open emotional displays and a deeper connection with the darker aspects of life. This is not to say that everyone in this sexta is evil, but most will have a natural gravitation towards exploring or understanding what other people shun away from. A good way of putting it, is that they seem more comfortable with exploring the negative side of humanity through confrontational expressions, trying to make other people come to terms with it."


    —This description doesn't seem fitting of any type which is essential to a person, that is, which remains the same throughout this person's life. Alphas are supposed to be "merry" but I know alphas who would fit this description.


    "So, their focus on the negative leads to a catharsis through which they develop and understand themselves and the world better, which makes self-development a very important value in this sexta. They will often have powerful emotions and expressions, including a strong interest in intellectual, scientific discussions and overall self improvement. However, this is only coupled with a tendency to rile people up and create tense atmospheres."


    —First they want to make the world better and then they want to improve themselves. Gee, this sure doesn't apply to everyone. Such as, those people who want to make things worse...
    —The last sentence reads like a non sequitur. What does the "tendency to rile people up" have to do with the rest of the paragraph?


    "Generally they feel a strong attachment to basic human needs, and wish for a life of comfort where these needs are taken care of. Quite focused on the immediate terms of survival as well. They may have a tendency to embrace or disregard the physical aspects of life, turning rather greedy or detaching completely from the physical surroundings."


    —Gee, most people aren't attached to basic human needs, which is why they are called "basic".
    —Gee, most people aren't "quite focused" on the immediate terms of survival, but, instead, "unfocused to some extent (but not completely)".
    —Gee, there must be only one way to disregard the physical aspect of life, such as art, science, greed especially, and detaching completely from the physical surroundings, which is mentioned for a second time for no reason.


    ••• Sexta Ena on attitudinalpsyche.com:


    "This sexta is focused on identifying the emotional value of their earthly lives through unrestricted expression."


    —Gee, do they use a mathematical formula for that or do they, instead, dance?


    "The types arrange their intellectual pursuits and goals according to what will make them happiest as a result of the limited time of their mortal existence."


    —Gee, not everyone does this. This sure draws a sharp distinction between an investor, a craftsman and a mathematician.


    "This problem drives them to refine personal standards of what will quickly satisfy physical and emotional needs."


    —Gee, when most people do something they don't like, they just keep doing it, but THESE guys, instead, "refine their personal standards" and could consequently STOP doing it!


    "Types of this sexta are drawn to the mysterious aspects of life like mental illness, the paranormal, psychedelics, or anything that pushes the extent of what is possible in the real world. Dramatic emotional displays are welcomed to these types because they are fascinated by both extreme positive and negative human experiences."


    —Is this supposed to exclude deltas? It doesn't.


    "Members of this sexta force themselves to come to terms with the hardship of survival that other people shun away from."


    —Is this supposed to include deltas? Why, sure, if it's supposed to include everyone then that means deltas, too.


    "This connection with the dark side of life leads to a strong desire to improve the self because it results in a comfortable lifestyle."


    —Ooh, I am so COMFORTABLE in the darkness that is my life!


    "Free discussion of ideas is highly valued in this sexta as greater knowledge exposes the individual to better ways of applying their efforts in the world."


    —What other use could there possibly be for knowledge? Who is excluded by this description? Is "dumb" a personality type?


    "Similarly, the types encourage others' aspirations as long as the goal improves their overall happiness."


    —Boy, this sure contradicts the ways of the majority of people.


    "This sexta enjoys discussion of intellectual interests, life plans, science fiction, technology, and self-improvement."


    —These things have nothing relevant in common.


    "Overall, they focus on creating a comfortable and happy existence by creatively applying their knowledge and willpower."


    —This applies to everyone.


    ***


    ••• Sexta 2 on the16types.info:


    "This sexta seems more focused more on implementations of needs, rather than simply enjoying them."


    —What is an "implementation of a need"? And what is an "implementation of a need" AS OPPOSED TO "simply enjoying them"? Enjoying what, the implementation or the need?


    "They have an active wish to work towards making their lives comfortable, and while they enjoy of the expressionism of sexta 1, it is the positive and joyful emotions that are being explored."


    —Who doesn't want positive emotions? Even a Fi PoLR could "explore" positive emotions, especially in other people.


    "There is an active material focus here, and an enjoyment and active focus on building and acquiring the resources needed for material comfort."


    —Which totally makes humans different from, say, ants or beavers.


    "This also makes them good at material endeavours such as sport."


    —What kind of sport? Team sports, solo sports, competitive sports and gymnastics are for quite different kind of people.


    "But at the expense of either turning overly materialistic or being prone to addictions, forming overly strong attachments to physical activities."


    —That could happen to anyone.


    "This sexta also has a strong knack for intellectual pondering, research and philosophizing. However, their ability to do so is related to their feeling of wellbeing and mental wanderings generally thought out over long periods of time than Sexta 1."


    —Grammatically incorrect. Was "long" supposed to be "longer"? Furthermore, what's the purpose of the disclaimer? Everybody's ability for intellectual contemplation is related to their feeling of wellbeing.


    "It comes with the risk of losing touch with reality, or oppositely become so engaged in the everyday pleasures of life that they lose touch with their more intellectual side."


    —Whee, first they exclude deltas and then they include them – into the same sexta!


    ••• Sexta Dio on attitudinalpsyche.com:


    "Dios are focused on openly expressing the order of the world as they see it."


    —Usually people just murmur something incomprehensible.


    "They communicate goals and lifestyle habits in an effort to consolidate a holistic philosophy on how to achieve happiness."


    —Yeah, I know some beta authors who I can imagine to privately hold some grudge over not being considered philosophers.


    "With limited time to understand existence and to find emotional fulfillment, they naturally clarify their opinion of how the world works as this will result in a positive emotional state."


    —See, they do it "naturally". That means they could do it by dancing.


    "Dios gravitate towards the active aspects of life like sports, professional development, and anything that requires high energy."


    —High energy? Do fatty foods counts?


    "They discuss the demands of the ever changing present material world as it relates to their happiness."


    —Huh? I thought the present stays the same but the past and the future change all the time. These people clearly do not smoke weed all the time. What a personality type.


    "Making sense of the chaotic processes of survival, they continuously assess the risk factors in their environment that could threaten their well-being."


    —Normal people only assess these risk factors on Wednesday.


    "Dios refine the basic principles of achieving happiness more than any other sexta."


    —Isn't it convenient how great a difference there's between these two concepts: "principle" and "happiness"?


    "Noticing trends and patterns in their living spaces lends them to freely giving advice in the physical arena."


    —Wow, I only notice trends and patterns on Jupiter. These people even "freely give advice in the physical arena", which could mean anything from "Outta da way!" to "Keep your eyes open while driving".


    "This sexta can describe the slight changes in eating habits, motivation, and aesthetics that give you a better life."


    —Wow, no other kind of people can describe a slight change in any of these areas.


    "They discuss physical needs as it relates to a correct way of taking care of oneself and producing the most pleasure."


    —Everyone discusses physical needs.


    "This sexta seeks an atmosphere that supports everyone's willpower as this confidence will lead to a greater ability to express emotional states."


    —Ohh, so they're democratic?


    "Diets, exercise routines, and lifestyles are validated as long as they are not deemed illogical."


    —What?? This sexta opposes anorexia ON GROUNDS OF PRINCIPLE???


    "Dios appreciate talking about health, finances, entrepreneurial ventures, and beauty with strong opinions."


    —Well it's great that they also have a "strong knack for intellectual pondering" because now this description could refer to anyone.


    ***


    ••• Sexta 3 on the16types.info:


    "Like the second sexta, the third sexta has a love for positive emotions."


    —Yeah, the first sexta wants a "happy existence" which is clearly something else than "a love for positive emotions".


    "Likewise, they also like comfort and material benefits."


    —Nobody else likes these.


    "But they will actively try to start defining goals rather than create comfort for the sake of it."


    —Who would get comfortable FOR NO REASON?


    "Their logic also becomes more productive and perhaps simpler."


    —So they improve their ways of thinking instead of worsening them? Strange bunch.


    "Work-oriented logic, rather than catering to the abstract ponderings of the former two sextas."


    —This is not a sentence because it doesn't have a predicate.


    "For that reason, they seem rather competent at working effectively towards their goals and creating wealth and comfort for themselves, while positively influencing others towards adapting their constructive mentality without letting themselves get held back by smaller obstacles."


    —Awaiting for the sexta which is incompetent at working effectively towards its goals and has a negative influence on others, with regards towards "adapting their constructive mentality" or whatchamacallit...


    "On the negative side, their focus can make them somewhat single minded."


    —Every man is somewhat single minded. It is caused by testosterone.


    "Their determination may cause them overlook their own mental health, which can lead to unintended sudden expressions of anger."


    —But other sextas are not prone to sudden expressions of anger when mentally ill? Mentally ill people do a whole lot of things, including getting angry.


    "They are also prone to not understanding and therefore looking down on the weaknesses and shortcomings of others, usually in the form of critiquing for a lack of purpose or goal, or a lack of achievement."


    —If you gotta criticise someone, what else could there be to criticise for?


    ••• Sexta Tria on attitudinalpsyche.com


    "This sexta concentrates energy on fulfilling what is worth being passionate about"


    —So it's worth being passionate about, but you don't actually need to be passionate about it? You just need to understand that you could be?


    "by doing whatever it takes to achieve their goals."


    —Sounds like just about anyone who ever got something done, or does this mean most trias are criminals?


    "Trias freely communicate practical knowledge that will help them build the life of their dreams."


    —Whoa, don't give the recipe of Coca-Cola to these people. Everyone's gonna know it if you do.


    "High standards of fulfillment drive types of this sexta to express their emotions and directly state what they want."


    —So they behave just like normal people, but they do so because they have "high standards"?


    "Trias do not want a comfortable life for the sake of it"


    —Whoa! Another bunch of people who just won't get comfortable for no particular reason.


    "and see possessions as solving problems of productivity."


    —I thought the reason for having possessions is to look at them.


    "Intellectual pursuits of this sexta usually relate to the advancement of work interests as there is little time to dwell on the application of knowledge."


    —First it says they aren't theoretical ("work interests" rarely mean that) and then it says they prefer to be theoretical instead of "dwelling on the application of knowledge".


    "Members of this sexta see comfort as relative to their ultimate goal of pursuing whatever is deemed constructive,"


    —What a specific definition of an ultimate goal.


    "and they will encourage others to overcome intellectual and financial obstacles to their goals."


    —What do they actually say? Do they say: "What's your problem? Just get smart and rich."?


    "Trias are attracted to entrepreneurship, acting, marketing, or anything that promotes the self."


    —Even Buddhism can promote the self if you have the relevant Information Element in your ego. And an entrepreneur could work on anything.


    "Clearly stating how they feel and desire out of life, these types have a single-minded focus on their personal view of success."


    —"how they desire out of life" – does this part mean they want to be dead?


    "Discussion of health, investment, and education is highly valued by Trias."


    —The problem with politics is that everyone can discuss it.


    "This sexta can harshly criticize what they see as failure and require a direction to purposelessness."


    —But most people just float about, like trash?


    "Their determination can lead to an insensitivity of how people feel about their responsibilities as this sexta is prone to outbursts of anger when demands are not met."


    —Anger usually involves insensitivity of how someone feels and anyone could get angry.


    "However, other members of this sexta will involve themselves heavily in their emotional world and neglect applying willpower until absolutely necessary."


    —So even if you never get angry, you could still belong to this sexta? How inclusive.


    "Trias, as a whole, fixate on achieving happiness with their goals by flexibly developing expertise and creating comfort."


    —How does "as a whole" add to the meaning of this sentence? What is the reason for selecting the word "fixate"? What kind of expertise is "inflexibly developed"?


    ***


    There are no more descriptions of sextas on attitudinalpsyche.com. Apparently they got afraid of being caught for including nearly everyone in every sexta. It will be easier to attract customers for their $50 consultations when this part is left incomplete. According to Wayback Machine, it looks like the page about sextas on attitudinalpsyche.com has had the notice "(More info coming soon)" since February of 2018. But the16types.info goes on about sexta 4:


    "This sexta is focused on designing the structure of their environment, establishing hierarchies and implementing ideas,"


    —Hierarchy is such a nice word. It could refer as well to a dictionary as a political party.


    "while working on themselves as people in constructive ways."


    —Most people don't do that, right?


    "Overall, this leads to a focus on perfecting and developing the already existing areas, while still not being the least bit shy of creating new interesting endeavors."


    —Whee! Everyone included, once again!


    "This sexta has the same determination as the third, wanting to achieve status, wealth and comfort through the means of hard work,"


    —Huh? Normal people only dream about winning the lottery, right?


    "and praises the vices necessary for achieving that."


    —Or is gambling the very vice that is necessary?


    "They also have a love for positive emotions, but prefer them in a more subdued and toned down manner."


    —Yeah, they "praise" the vices but are "more subdued" about positive emotions. Clearly it's all about what you do, not about how you do it!


    "However, to achieve all this they have an unfortunate tendency to censor, or at least very actively limit the emotional expressions of both themselves and others, desiring an environment free of emotions."


    —Although I'm not so sure what's unfortunate about this, this description actually seems to describe some group of people instead of describing everyone. But it doesn't fix the whole.


    "They are also prone to some of the weaknesses of the third sexta, such as looking down on the shortcomings of others or turning into workaholics."


    —Does socionics include even one type which never "looks down on the shortcomings of others"? How can you live a life with people if you never do that?


    ***


    ••• Sexta 5 on the16types.info:


    "Unlike the two previous sextas, the fifth sexta is less focused on work towards achievement or improving what is. But instead focuses on enjoying the achieved comforts, turning their minds towards creative endeavors like science, art and self-understanding/development."


    —Science doesn't mean "improving what is"?


    "They will often be attracted to intellectual pursuits and scientific research, developing and furthering understandings within this field. They also seem to have a more materialistic focus, which means that their wish for self-development often translates into wishing to look good in both body (F) and spirit (E & L) and actively work towards doing so."


    —How does one "look good in spirit"?


    "Despite not having the more pure and constructive work-oriented tendencies of sexta 3 and 4, they do share their determination,"


    —Determined to be idle?


    "and are also able to work towards a goal, though it’s usually manifested as extension of an already existing area (Such as becoming a sport star or a lead scientific analyst) rather than creating something independant."


    —So they're scientists but not creative? What is a "lead scientific analyst" and why hasn't he already been replaced by a computer?


    "The negative of it is, that the people in this sexta may, like those of the fourth, disregard emotional displays and to the best of their abilities try to minimize the overall emotional expressions in themselves and others. They can also be quite arrogant, and critiquing of the weaknesses of others, now related to physical and intellectual shortcomings, rather than ones concentrated on lacking goals and directions."


    —Lacking goals and directions isn't an intellectual shortcoming?


    "Also, like the first sexta, they can be greedy or completely deny the physical aspects of life."


    —Can they also be something in-between? By the way, I've never known anyone who *completely* denies the physical aspect of life.


    ••• Sexta 6 on the16types.info:


    "The sixth sexta concentrates on relaxing and falling back on the existing material pleasures. They focus heavily the positive and pleasant aspects of life while actively trying to minimize the negative, partly through their optimistic nature. They enjoy toned down but positive emotional expressions and generally are interested in scientific endeavors, but pursue those mostly for the sake of it rather than with an end product in mind. They tend to have a very moderated approach towards most areas, and are careful to not let their ideas run away with them, and thus are able to achieve a constructive friendly-mannered discussion that doesn’t drag on, becomes hostile or leads nowhere. They have a gravitation towards the beautiful, and seek to create beauty or at least be surrounded with it. This goes for both material and artistic endeavors.


    Dealing with the negative aspects or problems with themselves or others is a common problem in this sexta. This suppression can leave the issues as ”ghosts” that come back to haunt them later, or cause difficulties in accepting or overcoming personal weaknesses. They also tend to downplay or avoid emotional displays, and can like other sextas with result oriented Physics be both greedy or avoid the physical aspects of life."


    —They focus on the positive but dwell in the negative? This description is perhaps the most specific of all but still I think the descriptions of sextas expose the Attitudinal Psyche theory as a whole as balderdash. The people who have written these descriptions have used a dialectical method that has no grounding and they've tried to "fill in the gaps", resulting in descriptions which don't sufficiently establish the sextas as different, non-overlapping groups of people.

  2. #2
    Ice's Avatar
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    I support any and all arguments that typology is bullshit, more than I do accept arguments that typology is productive and efficient and correct.

    But that is because typology is hardly something to argue, as it’s based purely on belief.

    So in that way you are wrong.
    ~Psychosophy LFEV
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    ~Phlegmatic-Choleric

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    a two horned unicorn renegade Nihilist 007's Avatar
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    ok but psyche yoga is for qualitative comparison against others where others set the data points if I have understood it. It is not like enneagram.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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