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Thread: The spread of online hate groups

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    Default The spread of online hate groups

    DISCLAIMER: one of my life philosophies is "run up, get done up"; come in here acting stupidly and recklessly (read: needlessly disrespectful, unproductive, disruptive and lacking insight) and you may be treated in kind if I feel so inclined, no holds barred.

    From where I stand, belief is free, provided those beliefs don't hinder my freedom to exist as I am, and, theoretically, I think this sentiment should be extended to everyone...but the realistic implementation of this is a tricky, sticky thing, of course, seeing as how some may perceive (accurately or not) another being's existence as inherently antagonistic to their own. I fully understand this conundrum. Having said that, fundamentally people can believe whatever the fuck they want to, and those beliefs can always be challenged/critiqued/called out/NAMED and DEFINED.

    This thread is not made with the attempt to impede what other people believe and say, necessarily, but in order to "call a thing, a thing" by highlighting a very real, insidious agenda for precisely what it is, an agenda. If it's one thing I can't stand, it's a duplicitous, two faced, fake ass bitch trying to pass themselves off as something else or speak in code. NAH, "shine bright like a diamond," or probably a cubic zirconia, more aptly. Step into the light and be held accountable, as any (allegedly) viable idea should be engaged. At the very least, that's a fair and respectable undertaking, even if potentially repugnant and repulsive.

    @GammavsBeta I didn't get a chance to comment on your thread before it was closed, but I think this particular format is more directly what you were attempting to get at, correct me if I'm wrong. Stressing empathy to those most likely with severe empathy impairments and deficits (including myself lol) can "fall on deaf ears" and/or create a particular hostile counter reaction. It should go without saying on a forum dedicated to personality typology, but not everyone understands the world through "empathy"; however, that doesn't mean you can't challenge and invalidate someone's gross belief system/ideology/agenda if that's what you believe it is.

    Therefore, I'll be posting various articles about the growing spread of certain "hateful" ideologies across social media and how they specifically target the vulnerable, isolated, lonely, disenfranchised through covert and seemingly "harmless" means in order to recruit people to their cause. And that's not conjecture, but the empirical reality of the situation. PERIODT.









    SOCIAL MEDIA: WHERE VOICES OF HATE FIND A PLACE TO PREACH

    This report is part of the “Hate in America project produced by the Carnegie-Knight News21 initiative, a national investigative reporting project by top college journalism students and recent graduates from across the country and headquartered at the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Arizona State University.

    CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. — On Twitter, David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, sometimes tweets more than 30 times a day to nearly 50,000 followers, recently calling for the “chasing down” of specific black Americans and claiming the LGBTQ community is in need of “intensive psychiatric treatment.”

    On Facebook, James Allsup, a right-wing advocate, posted a photo comparing migrant children at the border to Jewish people behind a fence during the Holocaust with the caption, “They present it like it’s a bad thing #BuildTheWall.”


    On Gab, a censorship-free alternative to Twitter, former 2018 candidate for U.S. Senate Patrick Little, claims ovens are a means of preserving the Aryan race. And Billy Roper, a well-known voice of neo-Nazism, posts “Let God Burn Them” as an acronym for Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender.

    Facebook, Twitter and other social media companies offer billions of people unparalleled access to the world. Users are able to tweet at the president of the United States, foster support for such social movements as Black Lives Matter or inspire thousands to march with a simple hashtag.

    “What social media does is it allows people to find each other and establish digital communities and relationships,” said Benjamin Lee, senior research associate for the Centre for Research and Evidence on Security Threats. “Not to say that extreme sentiment is growing or not, but it is a lot more visible.”


    Social media also allows something else: a largely uncensored collection of public opinion and calls to action, including acts of violence, hatred and bigotry.

    Months before the violent 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, people associated with the far-right movement used the online chat room Discord to encourage like-minded users to protest the city’s efforts to remove long-standing Confederate statues – particularly one of Gen. Robert E. Lee.

    Discord originally was a chat space for the online gaming community, but some participants used the platform to discuss weapons they might brandish at the Charlottesville rally. Some discussed guns and shields, and one suggested putting a “6-8 inch double-threaded screw” into an ax handle.

    Multiple posts discussed the logistics of running a vehicle into the expected crowds of counterprotesters.


    Heather Heyer was killed after James Alex Fields Jr. of Ohio rammed his car into an unsuspecting group of demonstrators. Others were injured. He has pleaded not guilty to multiple charges, including the death of Heyer and other hate crimes.


    “They (the right) said it was a free speech rally, it was never meant to be such,” said Jalane Schmidt, a University of Virginia associate professor and counterprotester. “What had been happening in internet chat rooms came to in real life.”


    The clash in Charlottesville attracted hundreds of members of the far-right community. The event garnered global attention, brought the violent side of America’s political divide into focus and prompted criticism and questions about social media’s role in inciting hate.


    The far-right’s use of social media also prompted some companies to ban users. Since the Unite the Right rally, Facebook, Twitter, Spotify, Squarespace, PayPal, GoDaddy, YouTube and others have jointly suspended hundreds of users associated with the far-right.


    Members of the far-right are calling it an “act of war” on their free speech rights – an unjustified censoring of conservative viewpoints.


    News 21 monitored the daily social media activity of various far-right users, including white nationalists and neo-Nazis, from June 10 to June 24. Those tracked had more than 3 million followers combined. Reporters recorded and compiled more than 2,500 posts from popular platforms, such as Twitter and Facebook, and emerging social media platforms, including Gab and VK.


    About half the posts were directed at specific demographics or communities, from black Americans and Latinos to Jewish people and LGBTQ members. The posts varied in sentiment from describing gays as “ill” to referring to black Americans as “chimps” and “sh*tskins.”


    Most of the posts followed current events. When families were separated at the U.S.-Mexico border, anti-Latino sentiment was expressed by nearly every user tracked.


    Almost all used coded terminology and symbols, which allows them to communicate with others who understand their unique online language. One common symbol is the use of parentheses or asterisks to show something or someone is Jewish or associated with Jewish people: “Our people can and will achieve the goals we desire – no matter how hard *they* try to stop it.”


    By the end of the two weeks monitored by News21, the 2,500 posts resulted in more than half a million “likes” from social media followers and were shared nearly 200,000 times.


    “Social media companies have succeeded in sort of negotiating a place for themselves in the world where they are not the publishers,” said Lee, who researches digital media and the far-right. “And somehow we all sort of sat down and accepted it up until the point we didn’t, and now they’re running to catch up.”

    Lee said the purging of online extremists began when government officials noted the Islamic State terrorist group had been recruiting new members via the internet and social media. Since then, the eradication of users has expanded to include the far right.

    “It wasn’t until after Charlottesville they (social media sites) started to understand that there was a risk on their site for keeping them (far right groups) there,” said Goad Gatsby, an anti-racism activist in Richmond, Virginia. “All these social media companies saw all these organizations as a way to generate revenue without any risk.”


    Gatsby and others consistently receive online threats from extremists via social media. Some threats have become incidents of “doxing” — the publishing of private or identifying information about a person online, usually meant to provoke physical harm to that person.


    “A lot of people have had to go into hiding because they were targeted in their own neighborhoods because of who they were as activists online,” Gatsby said.

    According to Gatsby, doxing occurs regularly, raising concerns over whether social media companies are capable of curbing real-world violence.

    “They’re confronting the question of whether or not it (social media) really is the Wild West and whether the people that are in control of these platforms are like a local sheriff,” said Bob Wolfson, a former regional director of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL).


    Wolfson said social media executives appear to tolerate most individuals using their platforms so long as they don’t “spew hate.”


    “And when the bad guys come, we’re going to tell them, ‘You can come and drink. You can come and rent our hotels. You can come and talk to the locals, but you’re going to have to check your guns.’ ”


    On April 11, 2018, the Facebook account Altright.com released a post to its thousands of followers expressing concern over increasing internet censorship. Within hours, Altright.com was suspended from Facebook indefinitely.


    The account was one of several linked to Richard Spencer — one of the most prominent leaders of modern white nationalism and a primary organizer of the Unite the Right rally last summer.


    A few days after his Facebook account was removed, Spencer acknowledged the suspension in a single Tweet saying “The alt-right is being recognized as THE grounded, authentic anti-war movement in the U.S. For our enemies, that’s unacceptable.”


    Later, his online white nationalist magazine, The Alt Right, was kicked off GoDaddy, a popular website-hosting company. The decision was made in response to a letter from the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, which claimed Altright.com incited violence, particularly against racial and ethnic minorities.

    The committee compared Altright.com to the Daily Stormer – a neo-Nazi website GoDaddy removed in 2017 after a Daily Stormer editor belittled the killing of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville, calling her a “drain on society.”

    In its two-week review of the social media activities of prominent far-right figures, News21 found that nearly half the posts were directed at Latinos, black Americans, Muslims, Jewish people, LGBTQ members, women and other groups. About one-third of those referred to Jewish people or Latinos, followed closely by Muslims and the LGBTQ community, which accounted for about a quarter of the posts.


    Many posts followed real life events. When families were being separated at the U.S.-Mexico border, Roper, the neo-Nazi, posted a tweet stating “#KeepFamiliesTogether Deport them all, along with any who support them. With a catapult.”


    On Facebook, Allsup, the white nationalist, compared the separations to Jewish people during the Holocaust, wondering what the problem was and calling immigrant parents “deadbeat parents.”


    As of August 2018, many of these users still are online.


    Researchers cite multiple possibilities as to why some users get to stay and others go including: the hiding of hateful rhetoric in coded language, adopting new neutral-sounding identities, such as “white civil-rights advocate,” and the lack of a concise definition of hate and hate speech.


    In December 2017, Twitter announced it would start enforcing stricter rules on “hateful comments,” but Duke, the former KKK leader who calls the Holocaust a hoax, remains on the site.


    Over the two weeks that News21 tracked his social media activity, Duke posted more than 230 tweets – 30 percent of them directed at Jewish people.

    “I can’t look into the minds of the people making these decisions to allow or not allow prominent people to have platforms,” said Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow with the ADL’s Center on Extremism. “You can’t get much more obvious than David Duke.”

    Pitcavage, a researcher for the league’s hate symbols database, which identifies various codewords and symbols commonly used by extremists, suggested the development of the far-right’s online vocabulary may be why some hate groups remain available online.


    “By the nature of who is doing this type of moderating, a lot of stuff is going to be missed,” Pitcavage said. “A lot of times the message has to be really blatant for that person looking at it to understand what the objectionable part of it is.”


    Some common terms, such as snowflake (someone who’s sensitive or feminine) or normies (those who lean left), may be predictable in meaning and are generally less offensive. However, other obscure symbols such as 88 (which stands for “Heil Hitler” because H is the eighth letter in the alphabet) could be instrumental to identifying hateful social media users.


    Pitcavage said the ambiguous terminology allows users to bypass automated algorithm searches and average social media users – two ways Facebook, Twitter and other large platforms flag or report hate. It also allows users to remain in the mainstream undetected while still communicating with those who understand the language.


    “With shorthand, where everyone knows what it means, it creates this degree of commonality,” Pitcavage said.


    In August 2017, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg posted on his page: “There is no place for hate in our community. That’s why we’ve always taken down any post that promotes or celebrates hate crimes or acts of terrorism — including what happened in Charlottesville.” Later, in April 2018, Zuckerberg reiterated that, saying “we do not allow hate groups on Facebook, overall.”


    But it wasn’t until almost a year after Charlottesville that Facebook removed Jason Kessler, the primary organizer of the Unite the Right rally, which featured torch-wielding white nationalists marching through town shouting “Jews will not replace us!” and “Blood and soil!”

    Kessler identifies as a white civil-rights advocate, which researchers say may contribute to his remaining on major social media platforms and to Facebook’s delay in his suspension.


    “It’s a much more acceptable way of framing your ideology,” said Lee, of the Centre for Research and Evidence on Security Threats.


    “It’s this idea of saying, ‘We’re not about this idea of race anymore,” and it takes the ethnic stuff, the racial stuff and the white out of white supremacy.”

    Kessler, who goes by the Mad Dimension on Twitter and Gab, remained mostly self-censored across all social media platforms during News21 tracking.

    “Anybody who goes back and looks at the content I put out on my Facebook and on Twitter, I don’t use ethnic slurs and I don’t take cheap shots at other races,” Kessler said. “I try to be constructive, that I am advocating certain policies.”


    Main organizer of the 2017 Unite the Right rally, Jason Kessler, primarily blames the Charlottesville, Virginia, police for last year’s violence. His complaint that the police didn’t keep the groups of protesters separated is shared by many who were part of the rally.
    Kianna Gardner/News21

    In a June interview with News21, Kessler predicted social media companies would consider removing him as he prepared for another Unite the Right rally, which was Aug. 12 in Washington, D.C.

    About one month after the interview, Kessler set his Gab account to private about the same time his Facebook page was suspended. In the weeks before the suspension, Kessler posted about the upcoming “white civil rights rally.”


    “Any time whites say they want something for white people and stand up for white interests, no matter how watered down it is or how radical it is, it’s always called ‘hate,’ ” said Jeff Schoep, leader of the National Socialist Movement (NSM).


    The NSM also identifies as a white civil-rights organization on its website. Schoep said the group has been kicked off of every mainstream platform, including Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.


    The Southern Poverty Law Center, an advocacy group that tracks hate and bigotry toward marginalized communities, identifies the NSM as the largest neo-Nazi organization in the United States. Other suspended organizations include the American Nazi Party, League of the South and Vanguard America.

    But not all those kicked off social media sites accept their suspension.

    One white nationalist, Jared Taylor, sued Twitter for alleged ideological bias in February 2018 after the company banned his personal and business accounts for his nonprofit organization, American Renaissance. The two Twitter accounts combined had about 70,000 followers, Taylor said.


    Twitter claimed the accounts were associated with extremist groups and promoted violence, which violated the company’s terms of service. Taylor says that’s inaccurate.


    “They didn’t give a name, they never cited any of our tweets as being extremist or likely to promote violence or anything of the sort,” Taylor said. “It was just preposterous.”


    American Renaissance, founded by Taylor in 1990, promotes “race realism,” which Taylor defines as the recognition that race is a biological fact, not a “sociological optical illusion.”


    One recent article published by American Renaissance said the mission of Western women is to be homemakers and build up their husbands, not to hold corporate positions. Another elaborated on the “white fight,” or the struggle to preserve a shrinking white majority.


    “Jared has a lot of opinions others find appalling, but he expresses them in a respectful manner,” said Noah Peters, one of the lawyers representing Taylor in Taylor v. Twitter. “You can be as genial and polite as you want, if they don’t like what you’re saying, they’ll kick you off.”


    Taylor isn’t the first conservative user to sue Twitter on the basis of political censorship. But it is the first case so far against a private social media company that hasn’t been dismissed in court. On June 15, Judge Harold Kahn of San Francisco County Superior Court ruled Taylor could proceed with his lawsuit, saying the case “goes to the heart of free speech principles that long precede our Constitution.”


    “We want to change the rules,” Taylor said. “We want to make it impossible for these companies, simply on pure whimsy, to decide to shut people up that they disagree with. That is the right they claim.”


    Twitter declined to comment on the case and how the company determines who gets kicked off and who doesn’t. Facebook, Gab, YouTube, Google and others did not respond to requests for comment.


    “The only free speech that matters is their version of free speech,” Peters said.


    Taylor is among those who contend freedom of speech is absolute, but others say the fact these social-media companies are private poses a concern.


    “There is this kind of lingering question, which is, what obligation are they under to provide services to people?” Lee said. “Freedom of speech is freedom to express yourself, but it’s not freedom to force other people to publish what it is you have to say.”


    But sites built on the promise of First Amendment principles and as alternatives to mainstream platforms are available.


    “Anybody that wants to say any damn thing on the internet is going to be able today find a place to be hosted,” said Wolfson of the ADL. “They’re going to find someone that is more sympathetic to their message.”


    Gab, which describes itself as being “dedicated to preserving individual liberty, the freedom of speech, and the free flow of information on the internet,” is one of many emerging alternative platforms.


    The censorship-free company launched in 2017 and today claims about 400,000 users. According to the company’s annual report, users post more than 1.5 million times per month.


    Some far-right Gab users tracked by News21 were explicitly hateful. Christopher Cantwell, who hosts the alt-right radio show Radical Agenda, said in one post,

    “When you search for black lives matter and murder, all you get is a bunch of stories of police taking out the trash.”


    Patrick Little, who is rumored on Gab to be running for president in 2020, posts pictures of himself holding a campaign sign in that reads “Expel the Jews by 22, vote Little, win Big” and refers to Adolf Hitler as a “saint.”


    He detailed his removal from mainstream platforms like Twitter and YouTube on his Gab account, saying they shut him down for “truth-telling.”

    News21 reporters Renata Cló, Ashley Mackey, Ashley Hopko, Danny Smitherman, Storme Jones, Anya Zoledziowski and Tessa Diestel contributed to this report.
    Kianna Gardner is a Don Bolles fellow, Renata Cló is a Hearst Foundation Fellow, Ashley Mackey is a Knight Foundation Fellow, Danny Smitherman is a Donald W. Reynolds Fellow and Storme Jones is an Ethics and Excellence in Journalism Fellow.


    https://publicintegrity.org/federal-...ace-to-preach/

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    Published — August 29, 2018Updated — Today at 1:08 pm EST

    WHITE, MALE AND MILLENNIAL: HATE GROUPS TAP BRO CULTURE TO RECRUIT MEMBERS


    The Proud Boys make their signature hand symbol while riding to a rally in Portland, Oregon. They also use the signal to communicate with each other in the midst of a fray. (Rosanna Cooney/News21)

    INTRODUCTION

    This report is part of the “Hate in America project produced by the Carnegie-Knight News21 initiative, a national investigative reporting project by top college journalism students and recent graduates from across the country and headquartered at the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Arizona State University.

    PORTLAND, Oregon – Behind the anonymity of white faces illuminated by tiki torches, beyond the bloodied fists of street brawls, there are communities of young men who gather on weekends to camp and fish and train in combat sports.

    The face of hate is changing in America, and the new right is a “millennial male phenomenon,” said Heidi Beirich, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Alabama, an advocacy group that tracks hate and bigotry toward marginalized communities.

    Brewing among some young men is an intolerance and hatred that’s bringing bias-motivated violence to the streets and white-nationalist politics to the political forefront.

    Beirich said many such groups have toned down their rhetoric and tactics since the violence of the 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. But she pointed to two groups, very different in their objectives, that “are still growing and making noise,” the Proud Boys and Identity Evropa.

    Both groups are young, male-dominated and positioned on the far-right. Both formed in 2016.

    The Proud Boys are comprised of blue-collar workers in their 20s and 30s who the SPLC label as anti-Muslim and sexist. The Proud Boys call themselves a men’s drinking club, extreme patriots who believe “being proud of Western culture today is like being a crippled, black, lesbian communist in 1953.”

    The Proud Boys are heavily invested in defending their First and Second amendment rights and recently have been involved in violent street fights with far-left groups known as antifa, particularly on the West Coast.

    Identity Evropa is made up of mostly college-educated white men in their 20s and is labeled a white-nationalist hate group by the SPLC. Their goal is to enable a white supermajority in America by bringing their political ideas mainstream and expanding their political and social influence, according to the group’s current leader, Patrick Casey.

    “Identity Evropa’s message is pro-white, white ethnostate, and this is a racist conception,” Beirch said. “Even though they may look good with their polo shirts and nicely painted banner signs, that doesn’t mean they are not dangerous.”

    News21 shadowed both of these groups during efforts to recruit new members.

    Members of Identity Evropa, many of whom prefer not to be identified, hang their group’s flag.
    (Shelby Knowles/News21)

    Identity Evropa: Image is everything

    “No tattoos, no drugs, well-dressed, high-class” is how Patrick Casey, Identity Evropa’s executive director, described his ideal recruit.
    In early July in Philadelphia’s Fairmount Park, 10 members of Identity Evropa joined Casey for an afternoon of community service, which the group also calls activism.

    Before pulling on protective gloves to pick up trash, Casey halted the group of young men to flatten one recruit’s shirt collar. Image is everything, and this park cleanup is an exercise in public relations, a way to push Identity Evropa’s ideas into the mainstream by being seen as valued members of society.

    “Identity Evropa. We’re kind of like a fraternity,” is the response members gave to passersby who wanted to know who they were.

    “Just doing our bit for the community,” they said to a young woman with two children at her side.

    When two members begin chatting about how mainstream news media are colluding in their coverage of black-on-white crimes, Identity Evropa’s chief of staff commanded them to stop talking, his eyes traveling to a journalist’s recording device.

    If Identity Evropa is a fraternity, it’s like no other. Dues may not inhibit membership – “$10 a month, the same price as a Netflix subscription” – but the prerequisites might. Members must be white, specifically non-Hispanic, non-Semitic and of European heritage, Casey said.

    Genetics are important to Identity Evropa, but ideology is more so.

    Casey, 29, and his band of identity brothers say they are working to preserve white identity in America. Identity Evropa has gained national attention for the youth of its members, and their presence at last August’s Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, where they led the chant “Jews will not replace us!” while marching with burning torches.

    After Charlottesville, Identity Evropa lost members and momentum and Casey took over as executive director to rebuild and rebrand the organization as cleancut and unsullied. The group now claims membership of roughly 1,000 and a presence at most college campuses around the U.S.

    Casey, who also works for the far-right media production house Red Ice TV, told News21 he was raised in a “mildly conservative” home in Virginia, but after researching multiculturalism, immigration and diversity online, he adopted identitarian beliefs and joined Identity Evropa.

    “Our national agenda is to place members in elected and powerful positions in order to legislatively advance an end to all illegal immigration into America and to ultimately limit legal immigration to people from northwestern European countries,” Casey said.

    The organization regularly places banners on highway overpasses, with such slogans as “Danger you are now entering a sanctuary city,” “End immigration” and “European roots | American greatness.” Members stage public protests, recently dressing in construction gear and holding signs reading “Build the Wall” outside the Mexican Consulate in New York City.

    But Identity Evropa focuses most of its recruitment on college campuses, which it sees as the last battlegrounds, places where young white people are taught to feel racial guilt and believe that multiculturalism is a positive thing.

    “You could be studying for a degree in physics, and they’ll make you take a diversity class,” Casey said, “but diversity just means less white people, and that is really sick.”

    The organization distributes recruitment fliers, stickers and posters on campuses, frequently drawing the attention of local and national news media, a recruitment strategy Identity Evropa calls “Project Siege.”

    “The idea is that people see the flier and then they look us up online and apply to join,” Casey said.

    After the application, they are contacted by a member of Identity Evropa’s interview board and a Skype interview is conducted. Candidates are asked about their heritage, their political ideology and their views on Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler.

    The Anti-Defamation League’s latest report on white supremacist propaganda on college campuses describes Identity Evropa’s tactics as using “propaganda that avoids recognizable white supremacist imagery and language.”

    The ADL recorded 478 incidents of white-supremacist propaganda on campuses since September 2016, including fliers, stickers, banners and posters. It attributed roughly half these incidents to Identity Europa.

    Brian Campbell said he was recruited by such a flier showing an image of a white man with the words “Our generation, our future, our last chance.” The 2017 graduate of New York University was in Fairmount Park for Identity Evropa’s community service project.

    Other fliers have depicted marble statues of European figures with the phrase “Protect Your Heritage.”

    “My campus had these posters up,” Campbell said, “and of course the media went crazy. I looked into the group, saw their Twitter, saw they had really good optics.”

    Campbell said he was frustrated with what he saw as a lot of talk and not much action from his college Republicans, but Identity Evropa was “actually doing something.”

    It didn’t bother Campbell when he learned Identity Evropa members were labeled Nazis online, as he believes the term has lost its meaning.

    “I’ve been labeled a Nazi for my conservative views on immigration, so Nazi doesn’t scare me anymore. Also, I have a predominantly Slavic background, so I can’t really be a Nazi,” he said.

    Once Campbell’s interview finished, Identity Evropa’s chief of staff told members that any other interviews were to go through him first. Members and the group’s board of directors speak in the language of Marketing 101 about who they are and what they do, and everyone must be on message.

    “This isn’t about optics” said chief of staff Mike, who asked that his last name not be used but was happy to talk while his recruits picked up litter. “We are actually making our members into better people.”

    Identity Evropa offers public-speaking classes, promotes regular exercise and is trying to expand a professional network of influential people sympathetic to the group’s views.

    Hours of interviews with members of Identity Evropa suggest confluent causes for their white-nationalist views. They see racial and ethnic differences as the root of domestic and global conflicts, and they find validation when a U.S. president speaks in what they view as their language about immigration.

    But most refused to be photographed, fearing retribution from employers and family if publicly linked to white identity politics.

    Although Identity Evropa’s public social media channels show members spending weekends cleaning parks to tending the gravestones of veterans, Discord, an online chat room where members communicate in private, tells a different story.

    To access the group’s server, members are vetted and interviewed, said Sam Argyle, who studied Identity Evropa for a master’s thesis at NYU. All those posting on the server are members of Identity

    Evropa, although they mostly use aliases as usernames.

    Private chats shared with News21 by Argyle show overt racism, anti-Semitism and misogyny within the group.

    One user posted: “you know what grinds my gears? black people who complain about having to work on president’s day. I want to hold a mirror up to them and say, that’s the reason why.”

    Islamophobia is present, too. One user wrote: “It’s ‘Islam awareness week’ at my school. What does that even mean?” Another replied “Is that before “ship them all back week?”

    While Identity Evropa’s official position on a white supermajority is non-violent, the language members use in private discussions is different. One user posted: “We’re the descendants of all the greatest empires in the world not to mention the most militarily gifted. As things get worse, we will become more mobilized and open about stopping the madness. It is only a matter of When, not if.”

    Discord
    also has a channel called White Pills where users post “good news” stories. One user posted a link to a “Black Enterprise” article, the headline reading “More educated black women going childless,” causing other users to applaud the news.

    News21 spoke to another former Identity Evropa member who arrived on foot to an Oregon coffee shop to talk to a reporter. Tall, pale and 21, he scouted the nearly empty coffee shop for cameras and anyone who might be watching.

    He said his former membership in Identity Evropa put him on a hit list for antifa, a collection of far-left groups that “doxes” members of the far-right by publishing personal information online with malicious intent. He declined to be identified for this story for fear of further retribution.

    A former recruiter for the organization, he claimed to have increased his regional chapter from three members to 30 in less than a year.
    “I just went to Trump rallies and talked to people,” he said.

    He left Identity Evropa after Charlottesville, fearing he would get caught up in violence of the far-right. But his beliefs have not changed. For three hours in the coffee shop, he spoke about white people in America, their persecution, how “Trump is making Europe his bitch.” He spoke about an America that will be unrecognizable, where white people will become an underclass. He, for a time, returned to his role as an Identity Evropa recruiter.

    “We cared about traditionalism, about the nation,” he said. “It wasn’t some dumbass (Ku Klux Klan) cringe bullshit. No, Identity Evropa were cool guys, not lame-ass dudes wearing Bed Bath and Beyond discount sheets.”

    Proud Boys brawl with antifa along the Patriot Prayer march route shortly before the event was declared a riot and police dispersed the crowds. An unconscious man is dragged away by fellow anitfa activists.
    (Brendan Campbell/News21)

    Proud Boys: A drinking club that moonlights for free speech

    Formed the same year as Identity Evropa, the Proud Boys have risen to public prominence particularly for their street brawls with antifa. Antifa, short for anti-fascist, is not a unified group but a loose collection of local groups and individuals who are aggressively opposed to far-right movements.

    The Proud Boys see themselves as a men’s drinking club whose members moonlight as bodyguards of free speech, particularly for Patriot Prayer, another right-wing group that hosts rallies in the Northwest opposing immigration and political correctness.

    Antifa, however, consider the Proud Boys a “violent street gang of misogynists, fascists, racists and bigots,” according to one member of antifa.

    Most antifa members come from the anarchist movement or the far left. But since President Donald Trump’s election in 2016, people with more mainstream political backgrounds have joined antifa at counterprotests, according to the Anti-Defamation League.

    The opposing groups have engaged in fractious civil disputes since early 2017, and videos of their violent encounters shared online have prompted more men to join Proud Boys and more people to attend antifa’s protests, both groups said.

    On the last night of June, at least four Proud Boys were hospitalized in Portland after taking part in one of the most violent protests since the Unite the Right rally last August in Charlottesville.
    In the hours before the rally downtown, a News21 reporter went to the Proud Boys safehouse in nearby Vancouver, Washington, where more than 50 Proud Boys from across the country were partying and preparing to do battle with antifa.

    Stationed at the driveway was a man wearing black. “I’m Travis,” he said, extending a hand.

    Travis Nugent said he was recently doxed by the Portland chapter of antifa, posting all his personal information on the group’s blog.

    “I came out here a few days ago and all four of my tires had been slashed,” Nugent said. “They put fliers into all of my neighbors’ houses saying that I’m a Nazi and a racist.”

    Behind Nugent, the Proud Boys milled about, drinking Budweiser and swigging whiskey and tequila from plastic bottles. They work as mechanics and drivers, and in the service and trade industries.

    “Hey, it’s the Utah chapter!” someone shouted as a blue SUV pulled in. “The Boys Are Back in Town” blared from the speakers as four men in black-and-yellow Fred Perry polo shirts, the uniform of the Proud Boys, piled out.

    The Proud Boys at this gathering were mostly white, although there were Asian and Hispanic members in the mix, wearing Make America Great Again hats and “(Expletive) antifa” T-shirts.

    “The left is always calling us racist; it makes no sense,” said Jake Farmer, president of the Vancouver Proud Boys chapter. “They say we have token members, what do they think we do, pay them? No, no, they’re our brothers.”

    “The West is The Best” is the Proud Boys core ideology.

    “As long as you believe that America is the greatest country in the world, as long as you are a patriot, then nothing else matters,” Farmer said.

    “This isn’t some big political movement,” said Gavin McInnes, co-founder of Vice Media and the alt-right provocateur who founded the Proud Boys in a bar in New York City. In a phone interview, he said group began as a joke, just an outlet for men who wanted to do something, a way to be in society.

    “In the past, men had an automatic advantage – this is no longer the case and men are seeing that change in the world,” Karla Mantilla, author of “Gendertrolling: How Misogyny Went Viral,” said in a phone interview with News21. The Proud Boys are dangerous, she said, because “their philosophy is based on dominating and defeating those that threaten their identities.”

    In the backyard of the Proud Boys safehouse, members frequently shouted “Proud of your boy!” in unison and spoke about the loss of American values, First Amendment rights and Second Amendment rights.

    After hours of drinking in the sun, the group was called into a huddle around Aaron Williamson, who had just finished tasering his thigh while chugging a can of beer. It was time for his battle speech before the rally.

    “We are not savages, we are not animals, we are (expletive) men!” Williamson shouted. “I don’t want you guys going in there starting shit. That’s not us, that’s what antifa does.”
    Helmets were picked up, along with pepper-spray goggles and gas masks.

    “But if they put their hands on you,” Williamson continued, punctuating his words with a pointed finger, “you don’t tolerate it. If they become violent, you don’t tolerate it. If you are assaulted, you have the right to defend yourself.”
    Armor was pulled on forearms, shins and chests to protect from expected punches and baton smashes of antifa protesters.

    “We’re the ones that stand between the good, innocent and the evil, you hear me?” Williamson finished, and a roar went around as fists thrust into the air.
    “Now, who’s got a prayer?” he asked.

    As the Proud Boys bowed their heads, the group’s converted school bus pulled up, driven by a man with a Jolly Roger eye patch, and the Proud Boys piled aboard. On the ride to downtown Portland, a Proud Boy with a megaphone pumped up passengers with shouts of “Uhuru!” which means freedom in Swahili.

    But the mood turned serious as they left the bus and were greeted by a wall of counterprotesters holding smartphone cameras.

    Moments later, a Proud Boy screamed into a megaphone: “What we should be doing to all the illegals that are jumping over our borders, we smash their heads into the concrete!”

    Proud Boys and opposing antifa members were primed for battle. Videos of the brawl show water bottles and oranges lobbed like grenades at the Proud Boys and the Proud Boys responded with physical violence.

    After 30 minutes, authorities declared the situation a riot and the Proud Boys retreated to their school bus to leave Portland and post on social media about the success and glory of their battle with antifa.


    Rosanna Cooney is a Veronica Guerin Dublin City University Fellow.

    https://publicintegrity.org/federal-...cruit-members/





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    I think this belongs here. The author believes that edgy humor can lead to a downward spiral into more extreme views and even violence




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    Impact of Online Hate


    Radicalization refers to the process by which people come to believe that violence against others and even oneself is justified in defense of their own group. Not everyone who is involved in a group is necessarily radicalized to the same degree; in fact, even within a hate group only a small number of people may be radicalized to the point where they are ready to advocate and commit violence.


    One way of looking at the process is to think of any group or movement as a pyramid. The base of the pyramid is made up of sympathizers who support the group and share its ideals but who are not actively involved in what it’s doing. They are typically the largest part of the group but also the least committed.

    The next level we might call the members. These are people who identify themselves strongly with the group and participate in its everyday activities.
    At the final level are activists. These are the members who identify most strongly with the group and are likely to push it towards more radical positions and more extreme actions.
    The process of radicalization can be seen as the way in which people move up the pyramid to identify more deeply with their group and become more willing to support or engage in extreme acts.

    In their article Mechanisms of Political Radicalization [1], Clark McCauley and Sophia Moskalenko identify twelve ways in which a person or group may become more radicalized. In most cases of radicalization more than one mechanism is at work. Of those, five are of particular relevance to studying online hate:


    1. The Slippery Slope – It’s rare for anyone to become radicalized by a single act or event; it is more often the culmination of many small steps. Research has shown that people have a tremendous ability to justify their actions, even actions they would normally consider to be wrong. (For instance, a person who forgets to leave a tip at a restaurant may retroactively find flaws with the service to justify not leaving a tip.) This can have the effect of shifting our morality: once we have established that something we previously considered wrong was actually right, more extreme actions may become permissible. This effect is particularly powerful online, where consequences are less apparent: the slope that leads from reading hateful content to creating it can be very slippery.
    2. The Power of Love – The social and emotional effects of being in a group can be just as powerful as whatever cause or ideology the group is committed to. Research has shown that members of hate groups such as skinheads will often act as mentors or ‘big brothers’ to vulnerable youth, providing a sympathetic ear, an explanation for their problems and a way of taking action. Young people recruited through hate sites frequently come from family backgrounds with single parents and/or a lack of love and affection and traditional moral or religious values. Hate groups therefore function as substitute families for these vulnerable, disenfranchised youth. [2]
    3. Radicalization in Like-Minded Groups – All groups are subject to a phenomenon in which the average group member’s opinion will become more extreme over time. This may be because the more different your opinion is from that of the majority, the more pressure you feel to conform – so those who disagree with the majority are likely to change their opinion, while those who agree either maintain the same opinion or become more extreme in their views. An example of this is the Weather Underground, an American anti-war group, which in the 1970s moved from political protest to terrorism as a result of competition within the group over who was the ‘most radical’.
    4. Radicalization Under Isolation or Threat – People will identify more closely with a group if the group appears to be isolated or under external threat. The classic example of this is a platoon or squad of soldiers in wartime: it’s not uncommon for soldiers to consciously sacrifice their lives to save other members of their platoon. The same mechanism can apply to any group that feels threatened, especially if members are planning or committing criminal or violent acts.
    5. 5) Dehumanization - A final technique for fostering radicalization is to portray opposing groups as being inhuman. This explicitly draws the line between the in- and out-groups and makes it easier to justify any action against them. For example, in World War II the Japanese were portrayed in a heavily caricatured style in American propaganda – always stereotyped, often threatening, and sometimes monstrous – with the result that roughly half of American soldiers were in favour of exterminating the Japanese nation after the war was over. In fact, servicemen who had not seen combat were actually more likely to advocate extermination – suggesting that it was exposure to propaganda, and not actual contact with the enemy, that had produced this attitude. [3]


    Victims and Perpetrators of Hate

    Hate can affect a wide variety of groups. In addition to ethnic groups, research by the Alberta Hate and Bias Crime and Incidents Committee shows that in Canada, hate groups frequently target Sikh, Muslim and Jewish groups based on their religious affiliation. [4]

    While racial and religious hatred is prominent, hatred towards the gay community is also common. A Calgary study found more than 60 per cent of respondents from the gay and lesbian community having experienced verbal assaults, with 20 per cent having been physically assaulted because of their sexuality. [5] These findings mirror similar studies in other parts of Canada and the United Sates. Transgender and transsexual individuals are also disproportionately targeted by hate groups. Bisexuals are targeted by hate groups less frequently, although this is partially due to a higher unwillingness by bisexual populations to report crimes due to fear of reprisal. [6] Not surprisingly, there is a close connection between hate and cyberbullying: for example, lesbian, gay, bi-sexual and transgender (LGBT) youth are almost twice as likely to report having been bullied online. [7]

    The perpetrators of hate crime in North America and Europe tend to be oriented towards the extreme political right. [8] There is also a rising trend towards more youthful hate activism and away from organized hate forums with traditional membership. Today’s young perpetrators are likely to be male and are less likely to be ideologically or organizationally connected, united instead by a broader xenophobic or hateful culture as opposed to belonging to a specific organized group.

    Despite the proliferation of online hate, claims by hate groups that their online presence has enabled them to recruit more members have not been proven. [9] It has been argued that the Internet has not resulted in increases in hate group membership, partly because of increased surveillance. [10] While an increase in hate crime since widespread use of the Internet has been identified by Turpin-Petrosino [11], a majority of perpetrators of hate crime are unaffiliated with any official extremist group. Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, has suggested that some hate groups post implicit or explicit calls for violence in the hopes that these “lone wolves” will be moved to action (Digital Terrorism and Hate 2011).

    Youth As Potential Targets

    Teenagers are prime targets for hate groups because many are looking for groups or causes that will give them a sense of identity. Identity seeking is a natural part of adolescence but, taken to its extreme, this can provide a toe-hold for hate mongers. “Anomie” is the term that describes the state of mind in which family or cultural values appear worthless. Youth suffering from anomie will seek a group or cause that gives them values, an identity and a surrogate family. [12] A common cause of anomie is when changing social conditions make it seem as though one’s identity is under attack.

    It’s important to point out that social conditions themselves don’t lead people to hate: several studies have found that members of hate or terrorist groups are often well-educated and come from middle or upper class families. It’s when economic and social problems – or the perception of such problems – are combined with a threat to one’s identity that people become vulnerable to messages of hate.

    It should also be noted that anomie can easily lead youth to form more positive new identities as well. In fact, the profile of a typical early member of Al Qaeda – a middle-class, overeducated and underemployed youth – is almost exactly the same as that of a participant in the “Arab Spring” of 2011, in which the repressive regimes of Egypt and Tunisia were brought down.

    Hate groups of all kinds have become very skilled at identifying those youth most likely to be vulnerable to their message, as can be seen in the following quote from the skinhead group New Order in their ‘Action Plan for Aryan Skinheads’: “Recruit Skins or covert activists from Punk Rockers and from the group of disaffected White kids who feel “left out,” isolated, unpopular, or on the fringe or margin of things at school (outsiders, loners). There are some very effective people among such kids, and working with Nazi skinheads will give them a sense of accomplishment, attainment, success, and belonging.”

    Positive and supportive attitudes toward hate groups are influenced by word-of-mouth recommendations from personal acquaintances; criminal hateful actions are also reinforced through word-of-mouth, aided by new media such as email and social networking sites. [13] Adoption of dominant group ideologies by potential recruits typically occurs after a social bond has been established between a group member and a more senior ‘mentor.’ It has been suggested that university students are more hesitant to join hate groups than their secondary school counterparts, possibly because promises of improved futures – credited with effectively recruiting younger youth to hate groups – are less compelling for students who are invested in traditional institutionalized methods of economic and intellectual advancement, such as educational institutions. [14]

    However, being mainstream and educated does not guarantee a young person will be impervious to hate. The story of Elizabeth Moore illustrates the power hate messages can have on educated youth. This former Queen’s University student became one of the top-ranking spokespersons (and a rare female presence) in the Heritage Front, a Canadian neo-Nazi organization. The Elizabeth Moore Case Study, a first-hand account of how any young person can be recruited into the world of hate, is a must-read for senior secondary students.

    http://mediasmarts.ca/online-hate/impact-online-hate








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    Okay so not LIE. Just the way you make a big deal of things here doesn't say logic of actions base type. Its alright cause you make a great EIE to me. I love this thread topic and eating popcorn reading over it.

    Image is everything gets an evolution as it leaves Beta and enters Gamma. Gammas play it ironically and often times with disdain. It enters through SEE and leaves through ESI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    Okay so not LIE. Just the way you make a big deal of things here doesn't say logic of actions base type. Its alright cause you make a great EIE to me. I love this thread topic and eating popcorn reading over it.

    Image is everything gets an evolution as it leaves Beta and enters Gamma. Gammas play it ironically and often times with disdain. It enters through SEE and leaves through ESI.
    1.) This thread is not the place to discuss and dissect one's type; this is a particular space for a particular thing. If you want to give unsolicited opinions about my type, go here > https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-forum-members

    2.) You're wrong, I am LIE-Ni. For one, there is diversity in type. Two, logical types can and do speak about and utilize ethics and vice versa--duh. Three, it's amateur as fuck to not question where a particular action or behavior is coming from, seeing as how you only get selected aspects of one's personality. Issues surrounding this topic hit at my own Fi values--you don't get to decide what's a "big deal" or not, to me; that's my choice.

    3.) Don't derail the thread. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    1.) This thread is not the place to discuss and dissect one's type; this is a particular space for a particular thing. If you want to give unsolicited opinions about my type, go here > https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-forum-members

    2.) You're wrong, I am LIE-Ni. For one, there is diversity in type. Two, logical types can and do speak about and utilize ethics and vice versa--duh. Three, it's amateur as fuck to not question where a particular action or behavior is coming from, seeing as how you only get selected aspects of one's personality. Issues surrounding this topic hit at my own Fi values--you don't get to decide what's a "big deal" or not, to me; that's my choice.

    3.) Don't derail the thread. Thank you.
    No problem, Captain. :

    s coming from, seeing as how you only get selected aspects of one's personality. Issues surrounding this topic hit at my own Fi values--you don't get to decide what's a "big deal" or not, to me; that's my choice.
    This is the never ending look back at beta from gamma. There is a depth when Fi takes a look at the Pyramids created by groups. Unfortunatly maybe Gammas also fall into these group lines. Like I said, starting with SEE.



    Diseased American Marine sniper Rob Richards I type as SEE and he was court marshalled for urinating on a dead taliban soldier and dishounourably discharged from the Army for doing it. So group hate, even when its sanctioned by law, gets its time jn the sun as it enters via ESFps. I think with Richards what motivated him was more-so the disrespect to "his people" before it was an act for some sterilized Principle or Ideal, which is a Ti-virtue. This is often the case with gammas. In otherwords, its Fi ethics as it pertains to group think. He was enforcing something ethical as its described in socionics. This Taliban solder had killed, maybe, some Americans and this was a justification for killing him in return and marking the territory in a Fi ethics entered way. Everything infuriating him, his words, in a way that references his POV and never something truly objective. This isn't the same take you would see from SLE. Note the way he takes responsibility for it instead of passing it along the chain of command? right or wrong for an apology, this is where Fi leadership qualities start out for Te/Fi types and it starts with ESFps. There are many reasons these type of people benefit LSEs. Its not a well addressed topic on this forum. Its this reason amoung many others that draws LSE respect.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=QPVdVw5XaPw

    Last edited by Finaplex; 05-28-2019 at 01:27 AM.

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    Social media sites have become hubs for the proliferation of white-supremacist propaganda.



    (Washington Post illustration/iStock)

    By Rachel Hatzipanagos

    Multiplatform editor

    November 30, 2018

    White-supremacist groups use social media as a tool to distribute their message, where they can incubate their hate online and allow it to spread. But when their rhetoric reaches certain people, the online messages can turn into real-life violence.

    Several incidents in recent years have shown that when online hate goes offline, it can be deadly. White supremacist Wade Michael Page posted in
    online forums tied to hate before he went on to murder six people at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin in 2012. Prosecutors said Dylann Roof “self-radicalized” online before he murdered nine people at a black church in South Carolina in 2015. Robert Bowers, accused of murdering 11 elderly worshipers at a Pennsylvania synagogue in October, had been active on Gab, a Twitter-like site used by white supremacists.


    About US logo (N/A/J.J. Alcantara/The Washington Post)

    And just a few weeks ago, a 30-year-old D.C. man who described himself as a white nationalist was arrested on a gun charge after concerned relatives alerted police to his violent outbursts, including saying that the victims at the synagogue “deserved it.” Police say the man was online friends with Bowers.

    “I think that the white-supremacist movement has used technology in a way that has been unbelievably effective at radicalizing people,” said Adam Neufeld, vice president of innovation and strategy for the Anti-Defamation League.

    “We should not kid ourselves that online hate will stay online,” Neufeld added. “Even if a small percentage of those folks active online go on to commit a hate crime, it’s something well beyond what we’ve seen for America.”


    In 2017, white supremacists committed the majority of domestic extremist-related killings in the United States, according to a report from the Anti-Defamation League. They were responsible for 18 of the 34 murders documented by domestic extremists that year.

    The influence of the Internet in fostering white-supremacist ideas can’t be underestimated, said Shannon Martinez, who helps people leave extremist groups as program director of the
    Free Radicals Project. The digital world gives white supremacists a safe space to explore extreme ideologies and intensify their hate without consequence, she said. Their rage can grow under the radar until the moment when it explodes in the real world.


    “There’s a lot of romanticization of violence among the far-right online, and there aren’t consequences to that,” said Martinez, who was a white-power skinhead for about five years. “In the physical world, if you’re standing in front of someone and you say something abhorrent, there’s a chance they’ll punch you. Online, you don’t have that, and you escalate into further physical violence without a threat to yourself.”

    How hate spreads


    Internet culture often categorizes hate speech as “trolling,” but the severity and viciousness of these comments has evolved into something much more sinister in recent years, said Whitney Phillips, an assistant professor of communications at Syracuse University. Frequently, the targets of these comments are people of color, women and religious minorities, who have spoken out about online harassment and hateful attacks for as long as the social media platforms have existed, calling for tech companies to take action to curb them.


    “The more you hide behind ‘trolling,’ the more you can launder white supremacy into the mainstream,” said Phillips, who released a report this year, “The Oxygen of Amplification,” that analyzed how hate groups have spread their messages online.

    Phillips described how white-supremacist groups first infiltrated niche online communities such as 4chan, where trolling is a tradition. But their posts on 4chan took a more vicious tone after Gamergate, the
    Internet controversy that began in 2013 with a debate over increasing diversity in video games and that snowballed into a full-on culture war. Leaders of the Daily Stormer, a white-supremacist site, became a regular presence on 4chan as the rhetoric got increasingly nasty, Phillips said, and stoked already-present hateful sentiments on the site.


    Phillips said it’s unclear how many people were radicalized through 4chan, but the hateful content spread like a virus to more mainstream sites such as Facebook, Twitter and Instagram through shared memes and retweets, where they reach much larger audiences.


    [White parents teach their children to be colorblind. Here’s why that’s bad for everyone.]
    Unlike hate movements of the past, extremist groups are able to quickly normalize their messages by delivering a never-ending stream of hateful propaganda to the masses.

    “One of the big things that changes online is that it allows people to see others use hateful words, slurs and ideas, and those things become normal,” Neufeld said. “Norms are powerful because they influence people’s behaviors. If you see a stream of slurs, that makes you feel like things are more acceptable.”


    While
    Facebook and Twitter have official policies prohibiting hate speech, some users say that their complaints often go unheard.

    “You have policies that seem straightforward, but when you flag [hate speech], it doesn't violate the platform’s policies,” said Adriana Matamoros Fernández, a lecturer at the Queensland University of Technology in Australia who studies the spread of racism on social media platforms.

    Facebook considers hate speech to be a “direct attack” on users based on “protected characteristics,” including race, ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation and gender identity, Facebook representative Ruchika Budhraja said, adding that the company is developing technology that better filters comments reported as hate speech.


    Twitter’s official policy
    also states that it is committed to combating online abuse.

    In an email, Twitter spokesman Raki Wane said, “We have a global team that works around the clock to review reports and help enforce our rules consistently.”

    Both platforms have taken action to enforce these rules. Writer
    Milo Yiannopoulos was banned on Twitter in 2016 after he led a racist campaign against “Ghostbusters” actor Leslie Jones. In August, Facebook banned Alex Jones from its platform for violating its hate speech policy. The following month, Twitter also banned him.


    But bad actors have slipped through the cracks. Before Cesar Sayoc allegedly sent
    13 homemade explosives to prominent Democrats and media figures in October, political analyst Rochelle Ritchie says he targeted her on Twitter. She said she reported Sayoc to the social media site after he sent her a threatening message, telling her to “hug your loved ones real close every time you leave home.” At the time, Twitter told her that the comment did not violate its policy, but after Sayoc was arrested, the social media site said that it was “deeply sorry” and that the original tweet “clearly violated our rules.”


    The rules themselves, even when followed, can fall short. Users who are banned for policy violations can easily open a new account, Matamoros Fernández said. And while technologies exist to moderate text-based hate speech, monitoring image-based posts, such as those on Instagram, is trickier. On Facebook, where some groups are private, it’s even more difficult for those who track hate groups to see what is happening.

    Tech companies “have been too slow to realize how influential their platforms are in radicalizing people, and they are playing a lot of catch-up,” Neufeld said. “Even if they were willing to do everything possible, it’s an uphill battle. But it’s an uphill battle that we have to win.”

    Learning from the past

    While hate speech today proliferates online, the methods used by these hate groups is nothing new. The path to radicalization is similar to that used by the Nazis in the early 20th century, said Steven Luckert, a curator at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum who focuses on Nazi propaganda.
    “Skillful propagandists know how to play on people’s emotions,” Luckert said. “You play upon people’s fears that their way of life is going to disappear, and you use this propaganda to disseminate fear. And often, that can be very successful.”

    [
    Most white Americans will never be affected by affirmative action. So why do they hate it so much?]


    The Nazis did not start their rise to power with the blatantly violent and murderous rhetoric now associated with Nazi Germany. It began with frequent, quieter digs at Jewish people that played on fears of “the other” and ethnic stereotypes. They used radio — what Luckert calls “the Internet of its time” — to spread their dehumanizing messages.


    “They created this climate of indifference to the plight of the Jews, and that was a factor of the Holocaust,” Luckert said. “Someone didn’t have to hate Jews, but if they were indifferent, that’s all that was often needed.”


    The antidote, Luckert says, is for people to not become immune to hate speech.


    “It’s important to not be indifferent or a passive observer,” Luckert said. “People need to stand up against hate and not sit back and do nothing.”

    Martinez, of Free Radicals, said that to combat the spread of hate, white Americans need to be more proactive in learning about the history of such ideologies.

    She said she recently took her 11-year-old son to see
    the new lynching memorial in Alabama that memorializes the 4,000 victims.

    She said her son was overwhelmed by what he saw. Security guards who saw the boy attempting to process the display suggested that he ask his mother to get ice cream, a treat to ease the emotional weight of the museum. Martinez refused.

    “He’s a white man in America. I’m not going to let him ‘ice cream’ his way out of it,” Martinez said. “We have to shift this idea that we are somehow protecting our children by not talking about racism and violence. We can’t ice cream it away. We have to be forthcoming about our legacy of violence.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.56be2fe920a1

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    I automatically lose respect for anyone regardless of their political affiliation that resorts to virtue signaling, buzzwords and ad-hominem attacks (as Antifa and the establishment media are doing), as opposed to delving into the opposition's own views and ideas and dissecting them in the most logical way possible. I just tells me that person's ideas are inferior and would lose in discourse. I feel like this in itself has accelerated the growth of the alt-right and similar groups. Many liberal/centrist observers are seeing these pathetic methods being used to shut down these groups and are siding with them just out of spite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I automatically lose respect for anyone regardless of their political affiliation that resorts to virtue signaling, buzzwords and ad-hominem attacks (as Antifa and the establishment media are doing), as opposed to delving into the opposition's own views and ideas and dissecting them in the most logical way possible. I just tells me that person's ideas are inferior and would lose in discourse. I feel like this in itself has accelerated the growth of the alt-right and similar groups. Many liberal/centrist observers are seeing these pathetic methods being used to shut down these groups and are siding with them just out of spite.
    Interesting that you lose respect "for anyone regardless of their political affiliation" that "virtue signals" with adhominem attacks and yet you particularly single out "Antifa and the establishment media." lol So the alleged adhominem attacks they partake in are somehow equal or worse to those frequently spewed by the Alt-Right, White Nationalists, White Supremacists, etc...? It's just always interesting to me who people choose to stick up for.

    And you talk about "delving into the opposition's own views and ideas and dissecting them in the most logical way possible." Have you done this for "both sides" like I have? Did you even bother to read or watch any of the content in this thread before virtue signaling and using buzzwords like "Antifa and the establishment media?"

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    @Muddy at the 9:27 mark, "The Crying Nazi" says, "the more the left goes fucking insane and drives up hyper awareness about the racial tensions, more and more people come to us and that's a very good thing. And that's going to start influencing politics, if it hasn't already." Is this the phenomenon you describe when you mention "liberal/central observers...seeing these pathetic methods being used to shut down these groups?"

    Tangentially, how much "logic" do you think it takes to break down the implicit and explicit meaning behind Nazi salutes and what that directly signals for those who fall to the less flattering side of the Nazi ideology/worldview?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    Interesting that you lose respect "for anyone regardless of their political affiliation" that "virtue signals" with adhominem attacks and yet you particularly single out "Antifa and the establishment media." lol So the alleged adhominem attacks they partake in are somehow equal or worse to those frequently spewed by the Alt-Right, White Nationalists, White Supremacists, etc...? It's just always interesting to me who people choose to stick up for.

    And you talk about "delving into the opposition's own views and ideas and dissecting them in the most logical way possible." Have you done this for "both sides" like I have? Did you even bother to read or watch any of the content in this thread before virtue signaling and using buzzwords like "Antifa and the establishment media?"
    No, I didn't watch the content, I was making an independent statement spurred by the rhetoric used in this thread. I point out and Antifa and the media simply because they are the worst in my overall experience. I look down equally on any white nationalist who virtue signals about stuff like the Dresden bombings for instance, but I don't see them doing that type of thing as often as the media and anti-fascist.

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    As much as I agree with Gavin Macginnes (sp) founder of Vice, I get real sociopath vibes from him and question his toxic spread of ideas. Toxic now there is a buzzword.

    I really think he has sociopathic tendencies and therefor in my eyes any message he has is overshadowed by his manipulative persona.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    No, I didn't watch the content, I was making an independent statement spurred by this thread's rhetoric. I point out and Antifa and the media simply because they are the worst in my overall experience. I look down equally on any white nationalist who virtue signals about stuff like the Dresden bombings, but I don't see them doing that type of thing as often as the media.
    1.) Oh, so you're an intellectually dishonest hypocrite? At first, you claimed to disrespect/look down on those who don't logically map out and break down the "other side's" perspective and yet you yourself don't logically map out and break down one of the (many) perspectives from a particular side thus far presented in this thread, before making a comment. Just like I thought, you are a part of the very problem you claim to be against. How can you comment on the "rhetoric" if you've barely read and watched any of the "rhetoric?" Where's the much vaunted "logic" in that? RIGHT, there is none. You made a knee jerk, emotional reaction based off a few "buzzwords" that evidently prohibited you from the doing the rational thing by actually taking in and digesting the points of view made here. It's hilariously tragic to have to remind a presumably "logical" type on a personality typing forum of one of Socionics most basic tenets, that unconscious ethics drive his conscious use of logic, that all people are constantly operating from both a place of logic and ethics, whether they realize it or not.

    2.) It's funny, cute and maddening that you speak of who's worse in your "experience" with no sense of irony, historical awareness or context. So White Nationalists like Richard Spencer openly and brazenly espouse an ideology and worldview responsible for the brutal death of millions, the nigh decimation of an entire group and yet you believe that "virtue signaling" and "ad hominems" against these groups is the more egregious issue to consider? lol Any threat Antifa or "the establishment media" presents to modern Nazis does not remotely compare on any scale to the actual actions, let a lone threats, stemming from the Nazis themselves, taken more broadly. It's sad to me because I honestly don't think you understand the sheer ridiculousness of your argument. And I'm not using "ad hominems," I'm legit baffled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    As much as I agree with Gavin Macginnes (sp) founder of Vice, I get real sociopath vibes from him and question his toxic spread of ideas. Toxic now there is a buzzword.

    I really think he has sociopathic tendencies and therefor in my eyes any message he has is overshadowed by his manipulative persona.
    I know I said this wasn't a "typing" thread but I'm curious, what do you think his type is? I've seen him typed as ESE before. lol At the time, I liked the idea of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    1.) Oh, so you're an intellectually dishonest hypocrite? At first, you claimed to disrespect/look down on those who don't logically map out and break down the "other side's" perspective and yet you yourself don't logically map out and break down one of the (many) perspectives from a particular side thus far presented in this thread, before making a comment.
    It would help if you could list some main points in a condensed fashion when you post a mountain of stuff to read and watch. Just sayin'

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    I had no idea about the dark side of Pewdie, I'm seriously disappointed that no measures were ever taken to stop him (even his apologies were fake and alarming..).

    I don't agree with the stance of the guy from NonCompete channel. He says that we can't do censorships, that that does more harm than good, and censorships is always in the hands of the wrong people anyway, yet, he admits, sure, some things like child pornography and gore, well those shouldn't be displayed on yt. right.

    I don't agree with this, as the girl from the TadTalk says, we have to have an immunity system that rejects what is bad for us, and if anything has the same right to go unfiltered through our bodies, and if everything is allowed, then how can we distinguish right and wrong? Our body is compromised if it doesn't fight back the bad pathogens. Our moral values are f* up if we don't recognize free hate when we see it.

    Why are child pornigraphy and gore bad and hate speech is not? Disrespect and violence towards any human is an attack, either in physical and verbal form. I still can't believe Pewdie has gone through all that "unharmed". Why should we refrain from doing some indecent acts with our bodies, like killing, raping, torturing someone, acting harmingly without their consent (or simply having sex or urinating in pubic!), but if the same happens with words, then, well, free speech, free ideas, free expression? Nonsense.

    If laws are to grant and regulate decent behaviors among people, why are the very thoughts that lead to those decent behaviors freed from regulations? "When did mediocracy and banality become good examples for my children?" to quote Mr Hicks.

    Hate's appeal comes from the fact that it's easy, it doesn't require understanding, empathy, knowledge, logic. It's instinctive and ignorant; and that's why "to do the right thing" is less entertaining, it takes time, to cool down, to study and understand. As the girl in the Ted video says, extremism is the fast way out.

    The rise of the far-right/nazionalistic movements, is always accompanied by a catchy, easy, scapegoat propaganda; it appeals to the most angry and ignorant, Mussolini, Hitler, Trump, May, Salvini, won with the consent of the hungry, ignorant countrysides.

    And I wonder if the very liberal politics of "laissez-faire", is not really the cause of the current "laissez-dire wtv you want" state of things, that just pushes its own economic interests forward, without any regard for the mental sanity of the parties involved.

    Well, we should start using internet more responsibly, since none of the ones who should protect our collective interests is gonna do anything about it. I agree with NC channel on this.

    *thumbs up for the topic*

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    Do a post on the incels and farrakhan next

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    Who Said It? (Louis Farrakhan or David Duke edition)

    "The people who are pushing Jewish supremacism, Zionism--they are absolute evil and they are crazy. All they know is more power, and so there is a real danger, I should say, for Syria, and a danger for Iran at this point."

    "I believe that for the small number of Jewish people in the United States, they exercise a tremendous amount of influence on the affairs of government."

    "Satanic Jews have infected the whole world with poison and deceit."

    "...and the Zionists have used the Holocaust as a weapon to deny the rights of the Palestinians and to cover up the crimes of Israel."

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    Gosh, it's 2000+ years that people persecute jews, can we move on please? Let's just start kissing and making love to jews, muslims, everyone in the streets. That would be revolutionary.

    #flowerpower #bonobostyle #releasethestresshavesomesex

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    Duke and Farrakhan are two heads of the same beast. They've both spent their entire careers demonizing jewish people and ranting about the semitic boogeymen they believe to be pulling the strings of government and business. We shouldn't shy away from calling them out. It's pertinent to this topic because both of them as well as their followers have had influence via their social media accounts.

    Neither have made a secret of their views, so it's not like I'm just pulling this out of my ass. This isn't a conspiracy theory, their views have been well-documented for decades and anyone with google and a few minutes to spare can easily find the evidence.

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    The internet ain't real, none of this matters.
    (also if your image of the far-right is of Gavin Mcinnes and Identity Evropa you aren't really that knowledgeable of internet culture. you know the places where both extremes of the political spectrum like to shitpost can be found rather easily right?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolus View Post
    The internet ain't real, none of this matters.
    (also if your image of the far-right is of Gavin Mcinnes and Identity Evropa you aren't really that knowledgeable of internet culture. you know the places where both extremes of the political spectrum like to shitpost can be found rather easily right?)
    If you won't bother to read, stay the fuck out of my thread. Very simple. There is EMPIRICAL. FUCKING. EVIDENCE that a certain breed of "hate" is proliferating online. Don't give me this "internet doesn't matters" bullshit because that's not the truth. And if facts are not your friend, then you have no business being here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    If you won't bother to read, stay the fuck out of my thread. Very simple. There is EMPIRICAL. FUCKING. EVIDENCE that a certain breed of "hate" is proliferating online. Don't give me this "internet doesn't matters" bullshit because that's not the truth. And if facts are not your friend, then you have no business being here.
    I don't disagree that this stuff is spreading. What I disagree with is what you and people like you want to do in response. Censorship, moralizing, social control, which in the ends turns people into a bunch of spineless robots cucked to the establishment. Just look at Japan and South Korea. Sure, heavy social control has made violence and the presence of hate groups is extremely low over there, but it's also made people miserable to the point of making suicide common. If the cost of maintaining freedom means having a few more outbreaks of violence, so be it. The rise of these groups is the reactionary response towards the heavy propaganda and thought control we've been under for generations now. Trump was just the spark that lit the fuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I don't disagree that this stuff is spreading. What I disagree with is what you and people like you want to do in response. Censorship, moralizing, social control, which in the ends turns people into a bunch of spineless robots cucked to the establishment. Just look at Japan and South Korea. Sure, heavy social control has made violence and the presence of hate groups is extremely low over there, but it's also made people miserable to the point of making suicide common. If the cost of maintaining freedom means having a few more outbreaks of violence, so be it. The rise of these groups is the reactionary response towards the heavy propaganda and thought control we've been under for generations now. Trump was just the spark that lit the fuse.
    I wouldn't classify this thread as powerful enough to qualify as "social control," and it isn't censorship obviously, so I'm wondering how exactly the difference is made between openly expressing an opinion and "moralizing." Is it if trendy words are used as "buzzwords?" Is it just something you feel? Is it if morals are expressed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I wouldn't classify this thread as powerful enough to qualify as "social control," and it isn't censorship obviously, so I'm wondering how exactly the difference is made between openly expressing an opinion and "moralizing." Is it if trendy words are used as "buzzwords?" Is it just something you feel? Is it if morals are expressed?
    It's pretty clear to me that censorship and far-reaching social control is what OP wants. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I don't disagree that this stuff is spreading. What I disagree with is what you and people like you want to do in response. Censorship, moralizing, social control, which in the ends turns people into a bunch of spineless robots cucked to the establishment. Just look at Japan and South Korea. Sure, heavy social control has made violence and the presence of hate groups is extremely low over there, but it's also made people miserable to the point of making suicide common. If the cost of maintaining freedom means having a few more outbreaks of violence, so be it. The rise of these groups is the reactionary response towards the heavy propaganda and thought control we've been under for generations now. Trump was just the spark that lit the fuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    It's pretty clear to me that censorship and far-reaching social control is what OP wants. He can correct me if I'm wrong.
    Sigh. You're wrong as fuck. Did you even bother to read the OP? I'm trying not be "short" with you, because I don't necessarily get the vibe that you're a bad faith actor (so much as you seem rather context blind and lacking in depth of understanding and nuance of perspective), but it's particularly grating when it seems that something so obviously stated still manages to evade someone's understanding. To use another "buzzword," you seem triggered. I'm always triggered, but at least, I admit it and don't hide under the guise that I'm some purely "logical" being.

    I started the thread by saying "belief is free." How the fuck does that equal "censorship and far-reaching social control?" lol

    But I did acknowledge that though I think this belief should apply across contexts to all people, it still runs into a wall seeing as how there will always be beliefs that clash, and violently so, which does indirectly imply that there must be some form of "consensus" when it comes to the kinds of beliefs we adopt and adhere to. AND, I did say that I'm open to that dialogue and battle of ideas--I just want the people who hold these ideas to step into the light and be forthright with how they really feel, as opposed to cloaking themselves in deception and lies that allow them to lure unsuspecting dupes, who might think and act otherwise, were there full transparency of an underlying agenda. But I'm open to that discussion. And hat is not what the fuck "censorship" is so jump off my dick with that nonsense.

    Now let's rewind, in the first comment, you make a false dichotomy, that social control = death of the individual, as evidenced by the high suicide rates in Far East Asia. First off, there are degrees of social control that are completely necessary in that they are life affirming, from the standpoint that, for example, being allowed to wantonly murder another person would, on its face, contradict that person's right to exist, to believe that they should be alive. lol It's confusing to me that you resort to this black/white, 0 sum game--I realize that I'm talking to someone who seems to be in favor of anarchy, a ridiculously untenable extreme, imo, and so I'm not particularly interested in trying to convince you otherwise, seeing as how I think your base jumping off point is unsound. From where I stand, you're projecting your own imbalance, A LOT. Because you think in this extreme way, you immediately assume that I must do the same and that's untrue.

    As far as I'm concerned, the White Supremacists can delusionally believe that they are superior, the master race, all that rubbish, to their heart's content, but when they seek to influence laws and policies that would directly impact those they see as inferior, that's when their beliefs leave the theoretical and realistically impact "the belief" to exist, unimpeded, of other people. And that is a problem, which is why there must be some consensus, and the winning ideas, for good or for bad, will win out. And speaking within an American context, the vast majority of the electorate prefers a more progressive agenda across the board.

    Though it's valid to argue if Liberals have gone too far in attempts at over correcting the sins of the past, it's still necessary to consider the breadth of the sins of the past (which are legion), an undertaking that has been consistently resisted by those sitting at the top of the hegemonic power structures > straight, wealthy, white men. Trump was the spark to a fuse that had been soaked in lighter fluid by decades of flat out lies CHIEFLY propagated by the likes of the Republicans and media propagandists like Fox News in order to withhold power for a very small elite, while shitting on/gas lighting/scape goating everyone else.

    The Republicans have relied on a nationwide “Southern strategy” of sorts to reach the white working class, demonizing Democrats as the party that coddles minorities, taking jobs and tax dollars from whites and giving them to people of color, all the the while, instituting policies that actually worked against working class interests. It has already been proven that the American working class has done the best when center-left policies were in place and usually under a Democratic president. But nah, Fox wants to wade neck deep in identity and culture politics all the while accusing the other side of doing the same thing.

    Do you know what a false balance is? It's important, seeing as it's what most of those "arguing in favor of the other side's perspective" subscribe to: when people confuse treating competing views fairly—i.e., in proportion to their actual merits and significance—with treating them equally, giving them equal time to present their views even when those views may be known beforehand to be based on false information. I don't subscribe to false balances but to actual balance--therefore, I don't believe that every opinion is a valid one. I believe that informed opinions based on substantive arguments are valid, which is why the vast amount of the arguments that come from White Nationalists are dead on arrival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post

    As far as I'm concerned, the White Supremacists can delusionally believe that they are superior, the master race, all that rubbish, to their heart's content, but when they seek to influence laws and policies that would directly impact those they see as inferior, that's when their beliefs leave the theoretical and realistically impact "the belief" to exist, unimpeded, of other people. And that is a problem, which is why there must be some consensus, and the winning ideas, for good or for bad, will win out. And speaking within an American context, the vast majority of the electorate prefers a more progressive agenda across the board.
    Most white nationalist don't believe whites are superior, but rather that its better for that all that races by separated into their own nations. White supremacist are a subgroup within white nationalist groups who are tiny in number and hardly worth giving attention to. White nationalist aren't driven so much by hate but rather conspiratorial driven paranoia that jews are seeking dominance over other races and sabotaging civilization from within. White nationalist see themselves as a resistance rather then superiors that ought to rule.

    So the critical questions here that require logic and discourse are:

    1. Are there real biological differences between races that effect personality, behavior, intelligence, etc
    2. Does separation of races offer any benefit to culture and society
    3. Is there really a jewish organization seeking to destroy western civilization

    Thoroughly debunk these topics with logic, and you can defeat the ideas of white nationalist.
    Last edited by Muddy; 05-30-2019 at 07:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Most white nationalist don't believe whites are superior, but rather that its better for that all that races by separated into their own nations. White supremacist are a subgroup within white nationalist groups who are tiny in number and hardly worth giving attention to.
    That’s simply wrong.

    White nationalist aren't driven so much by hate but rather conspiratorial driven paranoia that jews are seeking dominance over other races and sabotaging civilization from within.
    Paranoia and hatred aren’t mutually exclusive. And anti-semitism has fallen out of favor, at least in the States, partially due to the “Judeo-Christian” mythos that was begun by the religious right. The main targets are blacks, Muslims/Arabs (to the extent that they even perceive a difference), and “liberals”/“the left” (that is, anyone to the left of them).

    White nationalist see themselves as a resistance rather then superiors that ought to rule.
    They would certainly like their race to rule. But no, they rarely see themselves ruling because they’re too pathetic to imagine it. Their “resistance” fetishism is part of their conspiratal thinking — that someone’s out to get them, and they need to resist.

    So the critical questions here that require logic and discourse are:

    1. Are there real biological differences between races that effect personality, behavior, intelligence, etc
    2. Does separation of races offer any benefit to culture and society
    3. Is there really a jewish organization seeking to destroy western civilization

    Thoroughly debunk these topics with logic, and you can defeat the ideas of white nationalist.
    You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. White supremacists don’t care to think, and will ridicule you for the effort. They will argue in bad faith in any “debate” one tries to have with them. The only effective response to a Nazi is public humiliation. I’ve heard milkshakes seem to work well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Most white nationalist don't believe whites are superior, but rather that its better for that all that races by separated into their own nations. White supremacist are a subgroup within white nationalism who are rather tiny in number. White nationalist aren't driven so much by hate but rather conspiratorial driven paranoia that jews are seeking dominance over other races and sabotaging civilization from within. White nationalist see themselves as a resistance rather then superiors that ought to rule.

    So the critical questions here that require logic and discourse are:

    1. Are there real biological differences between races that effect personality, behavior, intelligence, etc
    2. Does separation of races offer any benefit to culture and society
    3. Is there really a jewish organization seeking to destroy western civilization

    Thoroughly debunk these topics with logic, and you can defeat the ideas of white nationalist.
    lol Ummmm....NO. First off, the burden of proof does not lie with me to disprove any of that shit > the only thing I used to have somewhat fun arguing is the Charles Murry "Bell Curve" Race/IQ nonsense and that will not be hashed out in this particular space; I won't say it again, this space is for a very particular phenomenon. Is it important to understand the deeper underpinnings of the phenomenon? Of course, and that can be addressed elsewhere, with someone else's time, energy and effort. But don't you fucking dare try to bring that shit to this thread because I haven't had my coffee yet and I'd much rather scalp drag your ass up and down the internet before it comes to that. And now that I'm getting pissed off, quite honestly, I wish all the folks who want a white nation would get one and enjoy endless mayo on wonder bread, cystic fibrosis, trailer park cities, Ted Nugent concerts and burn in the sun like hill billy vampires while doing it (because I'm sure their dumb, inbred asses won't adhere to silly notions like climate change in this "Great White Society," anyway).

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    For years hate groups have been hiding behind the phrase, "why is everyone so offended?" where it has grown and is on its way to becoming a malignant disease. Every generation(or every few generations) seem to have to learn historical lessons the hard way).

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. White supremacists don’t care to think, and will ridicule you for the effort. They will argue in bad faith in any “debate” one tries to have with them. The only effective response to a Nazi is public humiliation. I’ve heard milkshakes seem to work well.

    I think the "you can't reason with" argument, while sometimes true, is a poor excuse. The problem is that people tend to assume they're arguing for their own side to hear, not considering the gallery of uninformed people who may not have taken a side yet. However, when they refuse to debate someone such as a white nationalist, I think the effect on the gallery is that people assume they don't have any good way to counter the white nationalist's points. Consider if you had an audience of Fox News viewers and the network decided to run a debate between a left winger and a white ethnonationalist. If the left winger decided they didn't want to debate, what do you think the audience is going to think? Many will assume the left has no good argument, no good way to counter their opposition. They might even start to think the ethnonationalist is right on some points. They might see the left winger's unwillingness to debate as a sign that they are ill-prepared and lacking in facts and logic. Meanwhile the ethnonationalist can play the "see, they aren't interested in discussion" card and come out looking the winner without even having to debate. Suppose on the other hand that the left winger comes into the debate with a wealth of knowledge on statistics and date and some good logical arguments to counter the ethnonationalist. Maybe the ethnonationalist tries to ridicule, talk over, or cite cherry picked data, but the left winger has shown a willingness to debate and if they do a good job, I'm betting they're going to reach at least a handful of Fox News viewers and change some minds. This continued refusal to debate the right doesn't help the left. Good recent example is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez refusing Ben Shapiro's request for a debate, then further making herself look bad by comparing his request to catcalling. I'm sure her most hardcore supporters agreed with the decision, but what about everyone else? How does that look? Especially after Shapiro and his fans start spreading the idea that she must be unable to win, that she must be afraid to debate him or uninterested in a dialogue. Even if Shapiro hadn't been interested in any real dialogue, he's going to come out looking like the winner here, while she comes out looking unprepared, unconfident, afraid of a debate.

    TL;DR - it's not about getting the ethnonationalist to think, it's about getting the audience watching the debate to think. What's 100 times more effective than publically humiliating a white nationalist with a pie to the face? Making them look like an idiot in a debate and disarming them from being able to play the "left wingers aren't interested in debate" card.
    Last edited by perpetuus; 05-30-2019 at 01:01 PM.

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    @The Perpetual Now, it’s because the right doesn’t argue in good faith that debates are doomed to fail unless the other side devolves into using the same tactics, at which point the ‘debate’ becomes nothing more than a game of impressing the audience. This is why AOC refused to debate Shapiro: his entire schtick is making as many claims as possible within his allotted time that the opponent can only make a full response to a fraction of them during his own — and so, if they play his game, they’re put entirely on the defensive. Unless you’re particularly comfortable with public confrontation of this sort of behavior, and you have the maturity and experience to understand that’s what he’s doing, and you’re skilled in the same sort of verbal put-downs as he, you’re not going to have a good time.

    Unless you’re saying the left needs demagogues on the same level as the right, then “debate” is still useless.

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