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Thread: Let's talk about Homophobia + Aristocracy and Democracy

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    @Kim

    I think everybody is gross. I don't really think gay people hold the higher moral ground either at all, but I do think a big part of the 'movement' has been proving the obvious lie that straight people do not have moral authority either. Most discrimination against gays has been done in the 'when people do shitty things in life, they don't think they're not righteous- they think they have the right' thing. If I'm a lustful pedophiliac demon with horns, then my only destiny is to have an anvil fall on my head, right? My only right in life is then to be terminated, because it's the RIGHT thing to do. That's why people who are so concerned they are in the 'right' are often so damn scary.

    The IEE I know that does this, I don't think she does it maliciously either at all so I'm not that offended by it. But you're right, probably not quadra related...

    *hugs Kim*

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    @Kim

    I think everybody is gross. I don't really think gay people hold the higher moral ground either at all, but I do think a big part of the 'movement' has been proving the obvious lie that straight people do not have moral authority either. Most discrimination against gays has been done in the 'when people do shitty things in life, they don't think they're not righteous- they think they have the right' thing. If I'm a lustful pedophiliac demon with horns, then my only destiny is to have an anvil fall on my head, right? My only right in life is then to be terminated, because it's the RIGHT thing to do. That's why people who are so concerned they are in the 'right' are often so damn scary.

    The IEE I know that does this, I don't think she does it maliciously either at all so I'm not that offended by it. But you're right, probably not quadra related...

    *hugs Kim*
    Everybody is kind of gross, but straight people are more gross. And white people. And Cis people. At least those who don't get it.

    I am really trying to be as generous as you are, especially living in a conservative rural area. I don't blame people for
    attitudes that they have because they were never challenged. But I have spent four years having conversations and trying to explain and really, the pervasive lack of basic decency and empathy is so frustrating. How is it not obvious that people who are different don't choose to be? How dense and self-absorbed can you be?

    I really need to get out of here...
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Ooh @Kim have you seen Pose on Netflix? I think you would like it a lot, it's about gay and trans people of color living in the 80s during the heights of the AIDS crisis. I just finished the season.

    I might make a post about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Ooh @Kim have you seen Pose on Netflix? I think you would like it a lot, it's about gay and trans people of color living in the 80s during the heights of the AIDS crisis. I just finished the season.

    I might make a post about it.
    That looks great! Thank you!
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    I don't blame people for
    attitudes that they have because they were never challenged.


    Yeah I grew up in a small shitty rednecky town too. I would ideally like to live somewhere more urban and hip and gay- as cliche as that sounds. Maybe other redneck gay guys would like it here, but... I was happier living a more liberal city.

    I remember complaining about being bullied or harrassed growing up, and it was always my fault for 'being the fag' and not their fault for being assholes. Even many therapists I had tried to spin it like that. I wasn't trying to be their friend enough, or trying to be 'cool' enough. But I was never into guns or doucebag str8 boy rap music. /shrug =D

    But a few months ago, I stalked one of my bully's facebook pages out of curiosity- and he said how guilty he felt and he knew he was a piece of shit, and how his girlfriend 'made him a better person.' I think something probably happened where the hate he had caught up with him. So I think part of him knew what he did was wrong... and it's not just about boys like him, but the authority structures of the world that enable and protect that kind of thing. That is why Trump is so dangerous of course. It's not about Trump, but about how he casts a buff spell on every white redneck str8 moron in a 50,000 mile radius etc.

    I see many rainbow pride flags in my town now, and although it's rednecky and white trash-like - it's also really gay friendly now on top it for the most part. But it all feels too little, too late for me personally- that's why I'm still bitter and why I won't give up the fight either. I needed this humanitarian feel-good crap when I was a bullied, insecure and horribly depressed gay teenager in grade school and high school who didn't want to be gay. I didn't get 'it's okay to be gay' until I was 17- but I needed it the most when I was 13. People have this fear and paranoia bout 'sexualizing' kids that age but the thing is, being gay of course is more than the sex. It's the culture, the lifestyle, the way of life, the attractions.



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    The term "homophobia" is just a made up ad hominem to shame and silence those who do not support homosexuality or the depravities of the LGBT community (even if they don't actually mind homosexuality in and of itself). The left's most used weapon is their use of shame tactics, which puts the Puritans to shame in it's magnitude.

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    Yeah they do it. Its basically a dinner bell for the idealists to come and save them from their stupidity. Funny when the idealists are basically the same way in a more subtle way.

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    I (along with many who believe it is wrong) believe the ACT of homosexuality is wrong; just like the ACT of murder, or the ACT of cheating, or the ACT of lying etc...

    We aren’t saying we hate the PEOPLE, just the ACTION is unacceptable... And just because someone is born with a predisposed tendency makes it right.

    Ex: If I was born with a predisposition to lie it doesn’t mean lying is right.

    Many of you guys don’t understand that disagreement doesn’t necessarily equate to hate/homophobia.

    ^^^^^

    This is Ti type rationalization so I’d imagine betas would be inaccurately labeled as “homophobic” plus the Se would make them more vocal about it vs weaker/undervalued Ti types have a tendency to be more emotional and intolerant of alternative views or speak up against it (like deltas that oppose it stay quiet about it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    I (along with many who believe it is wrong) believe the ACT of homosexuality is wrong; just like the ACT of murder, or the ACT of cheating, or the ACT of lying etc...

    We aren’t saying we hate the PEOPLE, just the ACTION is unacceptable... And just because someone is born with a predisposed tendency makes it right.

    Ex: If I was born with a predisposition to lie it doesn’t mean lying is right.

    Many of you guys don’t understand that disagreement doesn’t necessarily equate to hate/homophobia.

    ^^^^^

    This is Ti type rationalization so I’d imagine betas would be inaccurately labeled as “homophobic” plus the Se would make them more vocal about it vs weaker/undervalued Ti types have a tendency to be more emotional and intolerant of alternative views or speak up against it (like deltas that oppose it stay quiet about it)
    Don't worry, you don't account for all betas and thank god for that.

    Spreading the idea that the "ACT" of homosexuality is unacceptable equals to saying that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to be living their life freely according to their sexual orientation.
    This also justifies all kind of repressions against homosexuals. Especially when you compare them to liars, cheaters and even murderers which are considered morally wrong in our society as they evoke distrust and danger. Do you consider homosexuality to be dangerous? Wouldn't that be homophobic?

    It seems that people are scared to be called homophobic but they don't mind actually being homophobic at all.

    Homophobia is way more dangerous for society than homosexuality is. See, people murder other people in the name of the "ACT" of homosexuality being unacceptable. Homosexuals don't seek to oppress anybody. They don't tell you how to live your life, they just want you to let them live theirs. As human being and as part of society they have the right to that.

    Also this victimization of people spreading hate speech is getting tiring. As somebody said (I don't remember who) Free Speech and Democracy isn't about 5 minutes for the Jews and 5 minutes for Hitler. Some ideas aim to persuade a category of the population that they are worth better than another one. That their lifestyle should be the only lifestyle allowed and that anything that is unlike them is wrong. This kind of ideas have lead to the most horrific events in human history. So no, these ideas should not have the same weight as the advocacy for the right of minorities to freely live their lives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    Don't worry, you don't account for all betas and thank god for that.

    Spreading the idea that the "ACT" of homosexuality is unacceptable equals to saying that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to be living their life freely according to their sexual orientation.
    This also justifies all kind of repressions against homosexuals. Especially when you compare them to liars, cheaters and even murderers which are considered morally wrong in our society as they evoke distrust and danger. Do you consider homosexuality to be dangerous? Wouldn't that be homophobic?

    It seems that people are scared to be called homophobic but they don't mind actually being homophobic at all.

    Homophobia is way more dangerous for society than homosexuality is. See, people murder other people in the name of the "ACT" of homosexuality being unacceptable. Homosexuals don't seek to oppress anybody. They don't tell you how to live your life, they just want you to let them live theirs. As human being and as part of society they have the right to that.

    Also this victimization of people spreading hate speech is getting tiring. As somebody said (I don't remember who) Free Speech and Democracy isn't about 5 minutes for the Jews and 5 minutes for Hitler. Some ideas aim to persuade a category of the population that they are worth better than another one. That their lifestyle should be the only lifestyle allowed and that anything that is unlike them is wrong. This kind of ideas have lead to the most horrific events in human history. So no, these ideas should not have the same weight as the advocacy for the right of minorities to freely live their lives.
    Homosexuality has gotten a lot of attention over the past decade because it’s the only sin being redefined as not a sin.

    Imagine if embezzlers, murderers or rapists demanded that they be given protection - not punishment - by law because of their wrongful deeds? Or imagine that any of these people got together and paraded down Main Street in a ‘Murderers Pride Parade’? Most would gasp in amazement. Yet most embrace the notion that because someone engages in sex with a person of the same gender - and then chooses to broadcast that fact - they should be protected, even though God Almighty has forever denounced that practice and called it an abominable sin. Amazing!

    Furthermore,

    Christians (via doctrine) believe that marriage is between one man and one woman. When you force people to go against their beliefs/redefine them... that’s intolerance.

    When you condemn pastors and shut down churches because they don’t believe in homosexuality, that’s intolerance.

    When you force a Christian bakery to cater to a gay wedding, that’s intolerance.

    Outside religious doctrine, we can discuss philosophical/moralistic perspectives on whether it’s harmful if you want... But that'd be OUR opinions against each other. Christians use the Bible and God's word as the standard. With that being said, just because you aren’t directly harming someone doesn’t make it okay; not only that but you are also opening the floodgates and boundaries as to what is acceptable in the future.

    I’m not against freedom; people can do as they choose, we aren’t running around knocking doors down forcing guns to anyone’s heads telling them stop what they are doing lol. There are plenty of bakeries and places for gay people to get married. Just leave innocent people the fuck alone.

    And Ironically as a matter of fact, it’s actually the liberals and LGBT groups that have been trying to force their religion upon society.

    THEY are the ones:

    -Putting their movement on the front page of every major newspaper, in every phase of the entertainment industry, and in the schools.
    -insisting that they have special legal rights.
    -marching up and down the streets demanding that people accept and respect us

    How do you not see the hypocrisy?

    Again,

    Nobody is saying one group of people is better or that one group should be hated, there’s no evidence of that. Sure, there may be stupid people that actually do claim hatred towards homosexuals (similar to KKK groups) but they don’t represent what’s actually being claimed.

    But more often than not,

    This perception exists because people lack the ability to see nuance and think deeply so it’s no wonder this ignorance grows rampant; people just get emotional and have already decided what they want to believe in their minds.
    Last edited by Bill Nye; 06-09-2019 at 11:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Homosexuality has gotten a lot of attention over the past decade because it’s the only sin being redefined as not a sin.

    Imagine if embezzlers, murderers or rapists demanded that they be given protection - not punishment - by law because of their wrongful deeds? Or imagine that any of these people got together and paraded down Main Street in a ‘Murderers Pride Parade’? Most would gasp in amazement. Yet most embrace the notion that because someone engages in sex with a person of the same gender - and then chooses to broadcast that fact - they should be protected, even though God Almighty has forever denounced that practice and called it an abominable sin. Amazing!

    Furthermore,

    Christians (via doctrine) believe that marriage is between one man and one woman. When you force people to go against their beliefs/redefine them... that’s intolerance.

    When you condemn pastors and shut down churches because they don’t believe in homosexuality, that’s intolerance.

    When you force a Christian bakery to cater to a gay wedding, that’s intolerance.

    Outside religious doctrine, we can discuss philosophical/moralistic perspectives on whether it’s harmful if you want... But that'd be OUR opinions against each other. Christians use the Bible and God's word as the standard. With that being said, just because you aren’t directly harming someone doesn’t make it okay; not only that but you are also opening the floodgates and boundaries as to what is acceptable in the future.

    I’m not against freedom; people can do as they choose, we aren’t running around knocking doors down forcing guns to anyone’s heads telling them stop what they are doing lol. There are plenty of bakeries and places for gay people to get married. Just leave innocent people the fuck alone.

    And Ironically as a matter of fact, it’s actually the liberals and LGBT groups that have been trying to force their religion upon society.

    THEY are the ones:

    -Putting their movement on the front page of every major newspaper, in every phase of the entertainment industry, and in the schools.
    -insisting that they have special legal rights.
    -marching up and down the streets demanding that people accept and respect us

    How do you not see the hypocrisy?

    Again,

    Nobody is saying one group of people is better or that one group should be hated, there’s no evidence of that. Sure, there may be stupid people that actually do claim hatred towards homosexuals (similar to KKK groups) but they don’t represent what’s actually being claimed.

    But more often than not,

    This perception exists because people lack the ability to see nuance and think deeply so it’s no wonder this ignorance grows rampant; people just get emotional and have already decided what they want to believe in their minds.
    Again equating homosexuality to murder is literally homophobic. Not that labeling you even matters, but it's just funny to me that you claim not to be homophobic. I'd rather deal with a homophobic person that at least is real about his ideology and aware of the consequences that it has on other people living it his society.

    What would you say if a black person was denied buying a service from a company because of his skin color? What if that baker refused to bake a cake for a black person because according to his ideology, black people shouldn't be allowed to get married? Are you capable of seeing why that would be an issue?

    It's funny that you would mention the KKK. Just yesterday I was watching an interview of a KKK member. He claimed not to understand why his organisation is painted as dangerous and hostile towards black people. Sure there might be a few members who murder black people but they don't represent the ideology of the klan, you know? His argumentation sounds similar to yours. Here is a link to the video if you care: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqGU52odPuE
    It's sad but also very interesting.

    I don't think LGBT people are on the front page of every newspaper but yes they are more visible than they used to be. The goal isn't to force anything; it is advocate for their acceptance in society. Because once again, even if you like to claim the opposite, they are the ones being oppressed. Gay people get beat up, insulted or even murdered because of their sexual orientation. Gay teenagers get kicked out of their household. Gay teenagers are 4 times more likely to commit suicide.

    And again, all these things happen because of the ideology that you are currently advocating for on the internet. Do you really not see why people would call you hateful?

    Below I will leave links to articles that hopefully will help you understand why spreading the idea that homosexuality is "unacceptable" is dangerous. If it still doesn't then I'm sorry but, yes, you are in fact very hateful. Have a blessed day.


    LGBT Teens, Bullying, and Suicide
    https://childmind.org/article/lgbt-t...g-and-suicide/
    "2. A teen who believes his or her sexual feelings are unacceptable to peers may be at risk for suicide.
    Parents, teachers, and all caring adults need to be sensitive to teenagers who exhibit feelings of sadness, worthlessness, hopelessness, anxiety, irritability, rejection, and anger—all symptoms of depression, which is experienced by the majority of teens who attempt or complete suicide. Some parents assume that if they are tolerant of different sexual orientations, their children aren’t affected by the barrage of messages suggesting that it’s abnormal or immoral to be gay. Unfortunately, anti-gay rhetoric has extraordinary, insidious muscle in the cultural landscape, and gay teens are particularly vulnerable. Parents of gay teens are sometimes “the last to know” a problem is brewing."

    The Dangers of Homophobia
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl...ers-homophobia

    LGBTQ-inclusive bullying laws associated with fewer teen suicide attempts, study says
    https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...1?icid=related

    Recent LGBTQ attacks highlight hate crimes
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/recent-lgb...ry?id=63575407


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    Why is homosexuality such a terrible sin, but adultery isn't? It has become perfectly acceptable to have sex before marriage. Why can't I have sex with a woman? What's the difference with regards to "sin"? Procreation does not count - we don't just have sex to make babies.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    Also, the LGBTQ+ community isn't asking for special rights. Just the same rights. They also would like to not die of hate crimes or have to fear coming out. Making themselves visible is a way of normalizing.

    Business owners who refuse to serve certain groups should put up a sign in their windows. I would be curious to see how many "we don't serve Negroes" or "we don't serve non-Americans" we would see. Especially nowadays. And the worst part is, this is not even a unthinkable anymore with this vile administration.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Most straight men with internet access, even the homophobic ones, watch porn these days. There are three possibilities:

    a) you watch another man's penis.

    b) you watch two women having sex.

    c) you watch a scene that has at least one transsexual person.

    Because nobody actually watches soft core masturbation videos.

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    @YXPR thanks from the bottom of my heart

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    Again equating homosexuality to murder is literally homophobic. Not that labeling you even matters, but it's just funny to me that you claim not to be homophobic. I'd rather deal with a homophobic person that at least is real about his ideology and aware of the consequences that it has on other people living it his society.

    What would you say if a black person was denied buying a service from a company because of his skin color? What if that baker refused to bake a cake for a black person because according to his ideology, black people shouldn't be allowed to get married? Are you capable of seeing why that would be an issue?

    It's funny that you would mention the KKK. Just yesterday I was watching an interview of a KKK member. He claimed not to understand why his organisation is painted as dangerous and hostile towards black people. Sure there might be a few members who murder black people but they don't represent the ideology of the klan, you know? His argumentation sounds similar to yours. Here is a link to the video if you care: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqGU52odPuE
    It's sad but also very interesting.

    I don't think LGBT people are on the front page of every newspaper but yes they are more visible than they used to be. The goal isn't to force anything; it is advocate for their acceptance in society. Because once again, even if you like to claim the opposite, they are the ones being oppressed. Gay people get beat up, insulted or even murdered because of their sexual orientation. Gay teenagers get kicked out of their household. Gay teenagers are 4 times more likely to commit suicide.

    And again, all these things happen because of the ideology that you are currently advocating for on the internet. Do you really not see why people would call you hateful?

    Below I will leave links to articles that hopefully will help you understand why spreading the idea that homosexuality is "unacceptable" is dangerous. If it still doesn't then I'm sorry but, yes, you are in fact very hateful. Have a blessed day.


    LGBT Teens, Bullying, and Suicide
    https://childmind.org/article/lgbt-t...g-and-suicide/
    "2. A teen who believes his or her sexual feelings are unacceptable to peers may be at risk for suicide.
    Parents, teachers, and all caring adults need to be sensitive to teenagers who exhibit feelings of sadness, worthlessness, hopelessness, anxiety, irritability, rejection, and anger—all symptoms of depression, which is experienced by the majority of teens who attempt or complete suicide. Some parents assume that if they are tolerant of different sexual orientations, their children aren’t affected by the barrage of messages suggesting that it’s abnormal or immoral to be gay. Unfortunately, anti-gay rhetoric has extraordinary, insidious muscle in the cultural landscape, and gay teens are particularly vulnerable. Parents of gay teens are sometimes “the last to know” a problem is brewing."

    The Dangers of Homophobia
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl...ers-homophobia

    LGBTQ-inclusive bullying laws associated with fewer teen suicide attempts, study says
    https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...1?icid=related

    Recent LGBTQ attacks highlight hate crimes
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/recent-lgb...ry?id=63575407


    lol

    It’s pointless to continue to argue because I can tell you guys have already made up your minds.... Not sure if I should keep answering... I's like debating with an atheist on whether God is real or not... It's a pointless convo because in their hearts they have already decided that they aren't going to change. Change comes from the inside, not from internet forum debates.

    With that being said, I'm sure there are some lurkers on this forum that are neutral on this position so I hope it sheds some light.

    And it's funny you call me hateful,

    I've actually been told i'm one of the most open-minded people; from non-Christians and gays in particular. (Ironically IMO conservatives are the true open-minded liberals).

    I actually hung out with some friends this past year...2 of the dudes were bisexual. I was very open and friendly with them... One of the dudes actually tried to come onto me, which I didn't invite. If you want you I can provide you with their contact and you can ask them personally if I'm homophobic lol, but I don't really care if you think I am regardless.

    Again we're not monsters... the main thing I wanted to point out is that:

    Disagreement doesn't mean hate.; you can actually disagree with someone's lifestyle and still love them, as Jesus did.

    However, I will say that I do make people uncomfortable because I tell the truth/things people don't want to hear.... It makes people not want to talk to me because of that, and they stop liking my social media (lol), but someone has to say it.

    Last edited by Bill Nye; 06-10-2019 at 08:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Why is homosexuality such a terrible sin, but adultery isn't? It has become perfectly acceptable to have sex before marriage. Why can't I have sex with a woman? What's the difference with regards to "sin"? Procreation does not count - we don't just have sex to make babies.
    Kim,

    While I do respect your beliefs,

    There are other groups (Christians for example) that have their own set of standards. They believe marriage is between one man, one woman. That sex is a gift that should happen within the confines of marriage.

    You and I aren't any better than people that choose homosexuality, or adultery.... You and I have our own struggles and sin that we deal with.

    I'm not saying homosexuality is worse than murder... What I am saying is taking a sin and now all a sudden making it unsinful is what the problem is.

    Emotionally, to us humans this may appear unfair because it involves two people loving each other and it isn't directly causing physical harm....I know it sucks, but that's what the truth is (according to the bible) I'm sorry.

    But people can do as they please. God allowed free-will, for people to choose whatever they want to do.

    However,

    The problem lies in forcing people to switch their views.
    Last edited by Bill Nye; 06-10-2019 at 08:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Kim,

    While I do respect your beliefs,

    There are other groups (Christians for example) that have their own set of standards. They believe marriage is between one man, one woman. That sex is a gift that should happen within the confines of marriage.

    You and I aren't any better than people that choose homosexuality, or adultery.... You and me have our own struggles and sin that we deal with.

    I'm not saying homosexuality is worse than murder... What I am saying is taking a sin and now all a sudden making it unsinful is what the problem is.

    Emotionally, to us humans this may appear unfair because it involves two people loving each other and it isn't directly causing physical harm....I know it sucks, but that's what the truth is (according to the bible) I'm sorry.

    But people can do as they please.

    However,

    The problem I'm saying is forcing people that don't support that lifestyle to switch their views.
    Nobody is forced to switch their views. But nobody has a right to deny a group equality because their religion says so. Separation of church and state. What the bible says, does not matter when it comes to legality. And why do you care if being normalized in society? If you are straight, it has nothing to do with you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Nobody is forced to switch their views. But nobody has a right to deny a group equality because their religion says so. Separation of church and state. What the bible says, does not matter when it comes to legality. And why do you care if being normalized in society? If you are straight, it has nothing to do with you.
    If you did your research there are thousands of examples of the LGBT community forcing the church into doing things they don't believe in.

    Ex:

    One church doesn't believe a person practicing homosexuality should be able to preach, although they do allow homosexuals in the church and welcome them... Of course, the LGBT spins this as the church being hateful and not being inclusive, protesting and trying to change their doctrine .... The media also partakes in this and thousands of people are now thinking the church is hateful.

    Again, what I'm saying is leave the people that disagree alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    If you did your research there are thousands of examples of the LGBT community forcing the church into doing things they don't believe in.

    Ex:

    One church doesn't believe a person practicing homosexuality should be able to preach, although they do allow homosexuals in the church and welcome them... Of course, the LGBT spins this as the church being hateful and not being inclusive, protesting and trying to change their doctrine .... The media also partakes in this and thousands of people are now thinking the church is hateful.

    Again, what I'm saying is leave the people that disagree alone.
    So I never understood... when a person is gay, a religion thinks gay is sinful, and they don't believe they are committing any sins.. why still claim to be part of that religion? Why demand that a religion change to include them instead of denouncing that religion entirely? You can't base your truth on false premises and chopping away at a religion doesn't make it any more true.

    So what is the goal in asking Christian churches to allow gay priests? It's like asking your favourite meat shop to go vegan.

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    So you think being gay is wrong.

    And there are people who think "being gay is wrong" is wrong.

    You say you should be allowed to express your own opinion and they should leave you alone.

    They're also expressing their own opinions.

    The people that are protesting are expressing their opinions.

    The churches that change their doctrine are doing it out of their own free will.

    And so everybody is happy.

    What will likely happen in the end is that it will split into two religious sects, pro-LGBT Christians and anti-LGBT Christians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    So you think being gay is wrong.

    And there are people who think "being gay is wrong" is wrong.

    You say you should be allowed to express your own opinion and they should leave you alone.

    They're also expressing their own opinions.

    The people that are protesting are expressing their opinions.

    The churches that change their doctrine are doing it out of their own free will.

    And so everybody is happy.

    What will likely happen in the end is that it will split into two religious sects, pro-LGBT Christians and anti-LGBT Christians.
    exactly! just don't go after the ones that don't want to!!!
    Last edited by Bill Nye; 06-11-2019 at 04:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luk View Post
    So what is the goal in asking Christian churches to allow gay priests? It's like asking your favourite meat shop to go vegan.
    yup. it's frustrating

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    Since the topic has come up, what exactly is so threatening about gays to Christianity? I mean what's so special about "man and woman" anyway? Seems like they have the same problems that gays have with the only benefit that they can have kids. ??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Caan View Post
    Since the topic has come up, what exactly is so threatening about gays to Christianity? I mean what's so special about "man and woman" anyway? Seems like they have the same problems that gays have with the only benefit that they can have kids. ??
    It can be very tempting to become a moral crusader for the natural order, however you end up defining nature.

    Step 1: you decide what is natural and what is not. Or you read a book. Or you ask someone else if you can't be bothered.
    Step 2: defend nature from any who dare disrespect it.
    Step 3: feel good about yourself.

    I can't say every Christian / religious person is like that, but I've seen enough people who took it upon themselves to defend the natural order against perceived insults. It's very self-righteous, but I think they do it because it feels good to be in the right.


    I must have done it in the past as well. You feel powerful when you defend something, no matter how arbitrary. You also don't get to feel any guilt, because it's selfless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I'm just now reading an article about how a big reason why gay people were accepted so fast in the mainstream, is that gayness isn't inherently visible at first like being black or overweight or disabled or other 'minority status' so people come to know the person first THEN they realized they were gay. They already liked them (or not) in the first place, and simply being gay doesn't change that for most people.

    But this isn't always true, of course. (Why are all news articles so Delta IEE-ish?) When I was younger especially, I was a very 'obviously faggoty fag gay' and you knew it instantly you saw me - or knew it the moment I tried to play team sports or try to talk about cars. People that lived all the way in Alert, Canada could tell I was fag. And I could never be like the popular macho gay that was subtle about being gay, I was just always an obnoxious in your face faggot like the Beta I am =D. I think gayness does have an external objectivity to it in a sense, it's just not really always about internal feelings. With some men you clearly know right away the millisecond you meet them, and some you don't. Some gay guys have faggy voices, others sound just like an average manly man you would meet anywhere. This is why there is tops and bottoms.

    In fact, I have gotten this a lot in my life 'I don't like bnd because he's gay, I don't like him because he's TOO gay.' Yeah, I am definitely too gay. Guilty as charged. But some guys are over the top gay - other people just need to deal. They need love and acceptance as much as the cool, subtler ones. The over the top gays are a big reason why the macho, more cool guys are accepted anyway!
    That makes sense.
    When I was younger I watched a series called "Queer as Folk US" and in it there was a Justin Taylor who I now know was IEI. He was also "in your face faggy fag gay". And his lover Brian Kinney was SLE.
    What you explained now gave strong flashbacks of the Tv series to me.

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    When I was younger I watched a series called "Queer as Folk US" and in it there was a Justin Taylor who I now know was IEI. He was also "in your face faggy fag gay". And his lover Brian Kinney was SLE.
    Haha I remember that show and that relationship. I think the actor who played 'Sunshine' as he was called did a good job. I don't like Hal Sparks acting though. He doesn't have very good range as an actor and just always looks at you like some sort of douche. Like that's what he does for all of his scenes, looks at u like some campy douche 24/7 and it doesn't evoke that many feelings in me - when art should be about invoking somebody in the range of human emotion. idk maybe I'm being too harsh, but it was distracting- he also offensively compared kissing another guy to kissing a dog but I guess if you were a straight guy, it would be like that- or even grosser. I imagine it would be like making out with an undead rotting corpse I suppose, or maybe eating a dirty dorito off the floor as a dare. I
    f you are going to make a show about gay men- at least use real gay/bi men and not str8 guys who will get grossed out by kissing other men and compare it to beastality lol. Sure acting is about being fake and pretending to be somebody else anyway, but it offers a layer of authenticity that I like.

    I liked that guy Hal Sparks was with tho. What was his name. oh yeah - Robert Gant. And I liked the friendship between the nerdy gay and the effeminate gay that Brian Kinney made fun of.






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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Homosexuality has gotten a lot of attention over the past decade because it’s the only sin being redefined as not a sin.
    bro i think you missed the biggest sins by far, that has been totally redefined and dominates our society: usury and mammon

    i have some common ground with conservatives and even religious ones, but the hypocrisy of ignoring this is just too much for me.

    christ threw the money dealers out of the temple before he threw the gays out, everyone seems to have forgotten.
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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    bro i think you missed the biggest sins by far, that has been totally redefined and dominates our society: usury and mammon

    i have some common ground with conservatives and even religious ones, but the hypocrisy of ignoring this is just too much for me.

    christ threw the money dealers out of the temple before he threw the gays out, everyone seems to have forgotten.
    Nah bro.

    What evidence do you have that usury is redefined as NOT a sin?

    Clearly if it's a sin, and people are being hypocrites, that's THEIR problem. It doesn't change the nature of the sin itself.

    You're essentially saying certain sins are excusable because of the hypocrisy of human beings lol

    That's like saying killing people is okay because some other people get away with crime.
    Last edited by Bill Nye; 10-11-2019 at 04:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Nah bro.

    What evidence do you have that usury is redefined as NOT a sin?

    Clearly if it's a sin, and people are being hypocrites, that's THEIR problem. It doesn't change the nature of the sin itself.
    weird response.

    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Homosexuality has gotten a lot of attention over the past decade because it’s the only sin being redefined as not a sin.

    Imagine if embezzlers, murderers or rapists demanded that they be given protection - not punishment - by law because of their wrongful deeds? Or imagine that any of these people got together and paraded down Main Street in a ‘Murderers Pride Parade’? Most would gasp in amazement. Yet most embrace the notion that because someone engages in sex with a person of the same gender - and then chooses to broadcast that fact - they should be protected, even though God Almighty has forever denounced that practice and called it an abominable sin. Amazing!
    as if i were to reply to this with "What evidence do you have that homosexuality is redefined as NOT a sin?"

    do u know what usury is? are u aware that nearly all christian theology is against usury, that its plainly a sin and yet is tolerated everywhere and encouraged by religious conservatives? why do you people get riled up about faggy bumming but don't care that entire countries pay billions and billions of $ in interest payments to banks?

    it's ok to ignore that rule, quickly ignore our entire economic life is based on sin, but if a dude sucks another dudes dick you make murderers pride parade analogies l m f a o

    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    You're essentially saying certain sins are excusable because of the hypocrisy of human beings lol

    That's like saying killing people is okay because some other people get away with crime.
    I'm not 'essentially' saying anything, I'm saying exactly what words I'm saying

    "u secretly meant to say something different and extrapolated from what words u actually used" is a low energy way to interact with others, speak to people directly, i don't need ur linguistic-logical analysis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    weird response.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    as if i were to reply to this with "What evidence do you have that homosexuality is redefined as NOT a sin?"
    Gay marriage. Gay pride parades. General acceptability.

    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    do u know what usury is?
    It's really easy to look stuff up on the internet these days:

    "the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest."

    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    are u aware that nearly all christian theology is against usury, that its plainly a sin and yet is tolerated everywhere and encouraged by religious conservatives? why do you people get riled up about faggy bumming but don't care that entire countries pay billions and billions of $ in interest payments to banks?
    This is vague. Which Christian organization does this? And if usury by law is illegal, how is it considered "tolerated" and redefined as not a sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    it's ok to ignore that rule, quickly ignore our entire economic life is based on sin, but if a dude sucks another dudes dick you make murderers pride parade analogies l m f a o
    Nobody is ignoring anything. You're just projecting that. l m f a o

    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    I'm not 'essentially' saying anything, I'm saying exactly what words I'm saying
    It's called intellectual dishonesty. You're avoiding the main point by directing attention to something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    "u secretly meant to say something different and extrapolated from what words u actually used" is a low energy way to interact with others, speak to people directly, i don't need ur linguistic-logical analysis.
    Lol no. I'm addressing every point you have. You're actually the one avoiding things and giving vague general responses and saying stuff like "weird response" without backing anything up.
    Even gravity won't hold back your tears from science.

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    tbh you are right, I shouldn't have assumed that you knew the following and therefore it's not a weird response at all.

    By the time of the 11th century, usury was completely outlawed in Christendom, and Christians who practiced usury or supported it were excommunicated. At this time usury did not mean "with excessive interest", as it was later redefined, and was simply the process of lending money with interest for commercial gain, which was considered antithetical to the Christian idea of charity. The only people in all Christendom who were able to loan money for interest were Jews, which is why the Christian authorities kept Jews around so that they could raise cash quickly. Jews were often persecuted and you can find lots of records of their loans being wiped by Kings and pogroms arising because Christians felt hard done by from interest rates.

    Over time the rules because relaxed and usury was redefined to add excessive measures, to the point that now our entire economic life revolves around loans and debt and interest, and we pay taxes to pay the interest on the debt we owe banks and pay extra interest on our mortages, car loans, overdrafts etc, which by the way - if not excessive by modern standards - certainly would be considered excessive interest by medieval and premedieval standards.

    Well ok, maybe you like usury. Maybe I like usury. Anyway it's not illegal. And it's much less sinful than it used to be, because over time its definition was changed, until now usury dominates our society.

    But you said homosexuality was the only sin that was redefined to no longer be a sin. You are of course correct that it is currently being redefined to be less sinful. But you're wrong that it's the only one. The other sin that was redefined was usury. And you don't even seem to know about it - because you had to google it, and hilariously and ironically arrived with the redefinition. Don't shoot the messenger man. Next time you go to church ask your pastor/vicar/priest/whatever about usury and see what they say. But it's a historical fact that usury was once very, very illegal, and very, very sinful, and now it has been redefined to be totally legal and hardly sinful at all.

    And ok, that doesn't make you wrong about gays. But I think this situation is pretty weird.

    All the powerful people, the people who own entire countries and run entire financial systems, you don't wanna mess with those people, even if what they're doing is sinful as hell. And remember that you can't serve God and mammon simultaneously. Anyway, those people - better not criticism them, better not learn about how sinful their activity is. If Christians in the Third World do get upset about it, you can always get the CIA to zap their testicles with a tractor battery! Why not, done it before.

    But GAYS - Oh shit! Now that's some serious sin, yeah. But unlike bankers and the heads of FTSE 250 companies, gays are below you in the social strata. So it's ok to bully them lol. It's ok to point out their sinful behaviour and parallel their gay pride marches to pro murder parades. That's what pisses me off. Not the "homophobia", not the ignorance of what constitutes a sin and what doesn't, and not even the blatant hypocrisy. What pisses me off is you and all the other religious conservatives sided with the big powerful guys, ignored their sins, and instead turned on the little guys, the minorities, because they're lower than you and an easy target. You saw a difficult, powerful group of people sinning, and you saw a weak, downtrodden group of people sinning, and you chose to shit on the latter.

    That's lame as fuck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    "If God hates gay people, why does he keep making them?"
    "Because he makes people in his image and loves everyone, but he hates his gayness. So he gives it to the devil. And the defiant devil loves what God hates about himself."

    God's Narrator Holy Genesis Memoirs - verse 53 paragraph 4 section 10

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoodoo View Post
    "Because he makes people in his image and loves everyone, but he hates his gayness. So he gives it to the devil. And the defiant devil loves what God hates about himself."

    God's Narrator Holy Genesis Memoirs - verse 53 paragraph 4 section 10
    If god hates gayness and god made everything why did he make gayness

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    I think the homophobes just need a kiss.
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



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    I'm not a bible scholar but the denomination I joined is in what's called "open and affirming coalition," which is a thing, so #notallchristians and stuff (yeah and I'm not saying what is and isn't doctrine cuz fuck if I know. Is it something like a sin to say fuck? I dunno, which tells you my knowledge base. I think gayness is okayness but I won't cite the bible or church or anything. Just me. I take the credit.)

    Note: stuff like this and my boyfriend opening the church directory and saying, "woah, look at all those lesbians"

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Homosexuality has gotten a lot of attention over the past decade because it’s the only sin being redefined as not a sin.

    Imagine if embezzlers, murderers or rapists demanded that they be given protection - not punishment - by law because of their wrongful deeds? Or imagine that any of these people got together and paraded down Main Street in a ‘Murderers Pride Parade’? Most would gasp in amazement. Yet most embrace the notion that because someone engages in sex with a person of the same gender - and then chooses to broadcast that fact - they should be protected, even though God Almighty has forever denounced that practice and called it an abominable sin. Amazing!

    Furthermore,

    Christians (via doctrine) believe that marriage is between one man and one woman. When you force people to go against their beliefs/redefine them... that’s intolerance.

    When you condemn pastors and shut down churches because they don’t believe in homosexuality, that’s intolerance.

    When you force a Christian bakery to cater to a gay wedding, that’s intolerance.

    Outside religious doctrine, we can discuss philosophical/moralistic perspectives on whether it’s harmful if you want... But that'd be OUR opinions against each other. Christians use the Bible and God's word as the standard. With that being said, just because you aren’t directly harming someone doesn’t make it okay; not only that but you are also opening the floodgates and boundaries as to what is acceptable in the future.

    I’m not against freedom; people can do as they choose, we aren’t running around knocking doors down forcing guns to anyone’s heads telling them stop what they are doing lol. There are plenty of bakeries and places for gay people to get married. Just leave innocent people the fuck alone.

    And Ironically as a matter of fact, it’s actually the liberals and LGBT groups that have been trying to force their religion upon society.

    THEY are the ones:

    -Putting their movement on the front page of every major newspaper, in every phase of the entertainment industry, and in the schools.
    -insisting that they have special legal rights.
    -marching up and down the streets demanding that people accept and respect us

    How do you not see the hypocrisy?

    Again,

    Nobody is saying one group of people is better or that one group should be hated, there’s no evidence of that. Sure, there may be stupid people that actually do claim hatred towards homosexuals (similar to KKK groups) but they don’t represent what’s actually being claimed.

    But more often than not,

    This perception exists because people lack the ability to see nuance and think deeply so it’s no wonder this ignorance grows rampant; people just get emotional and have already decided what they want to believe in their minds.

    Listen, man. I don't have a single problem with your logic. There was a time when I believed the Mega Smiteman Big-G God was a thing, and back then, I might've agreed with you.

    What I can't look past now is what happens when you look at the abrahamic ban on homosexuality through an evo-biology lens. Christianity didn't just punish same-sex activity, traditionally it abhorred any sexual interaction that wasn't no-movement benis-in-bagina missionary-position for the strict purpose of reproduction. That last part is what puts the gay-ban in a whole different light.

    If a culture bans any expression of sexuality that doesn't result in breeding, and the human population naturally has a sex drive as it has through the whole of history, they're gonna breed a lot. Their numbers will exceed that of any other group that condones non-reproductive sex activity. They'll have more followers. They'll have larger armies. They'll be the likeliest group to survive through a filter event, and they will be selected for much like a trait is selected in evolution.
    Catholics often don't even try to hide this intention as they're also the harshest against any form of contraception.

    It's also no secret that Judaism was the one that started the stone-the-gaize practice. And the takeaway many historians get from studying Judaism over time was that its practices were highly concerned with preserving the Hebrew culture's longevity and social cohesion by any means necessary. This was an army of people who invaded countries, committed mass-rapes, and plundered lands for resources. Their "eugenic" practices, their pragmatism, was directly responsible for the religion lasting as long as it did, and bits of this pragmatism, but not the whole of it, survived into Christianity.


    And if your God is concerned with preserving the fecundity of his followers even to the point of killing genetic deviants (ones that can't breed for him), that must imply he is invested in the genetic quality of his followers. Which means an individual's hereditary strength may determine whether or not one can be God's "child," or whether or not he can love them. If this were the case, God may refuse to love you simply because you're too weak or degenerate for his standards, possibly even if by no fault of your own. Which clashes with the common Christian wisdom that god loves the weak and poor in spirit especially.
    Why else would your god insist on how important it is to show no concern for your earthly survival, to doggedly follow his commands even if it ends your own life?
    It's so you can't run away if he decides to cull you off.

    The logical conclusion of your god's commands is that our earthly toils are a breeding ground he runs, and we are the livestock. Which would make him a master little different than Natural Selection itself, making him redundant at best. And as anyone who's observed nature would know, Natural Selection is a cruel tyrant whose exploits none of us should condone.
    And, you could argue that god's intentions shouldn't be deduced or assumed based on their affects by this kind of logic, because he is beyond our understanding and does not operate by our logic. But if you believe in this God because of logical arguments, you should also conclude that his intentions are similarly logical as well.
    If your reason for following him is not out of logic, but arbitrary faith alone.......what the hell are you doing???
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    My thoughts on human rights is that there are primary (base freedoms) and secondary rights:

    Definition: Primary rights are rights given to preserve equality between physical differences (I know that sounds superficial, but bare with me). This would include rights pertaining to equality of race, gender, physical capabilities (equality for people with physical disorders, or other physical deficiencies), age, etc. Basically anything I can assign to a person based on looking at them (Assuming I have good vision).

    Definition: Secondary rights are less obvious rights pertaining to secondary properties of a human like religion, sexuality, beliefs, nationality etc. Equality here is okay from the government's perspective as long as they don't conflict with base freedoms. For example, it can't be my belief I should be the only human alive so everyone must be "destroyed." We already see this kind of restrictions in our own governments ( the outlawing of pedophilia). So obviously the rights given to secondary properties of a person should be "looser" than the rights given to primary properties.

    The reason why minorities get mad at liberals is that they lump sexuality into the category of primary human differences when I can't look at someone and correctly conclude "their gay." However, you can easily look at someone and tell if their "brown" or if they have have reached a senior age. No disputes are born when defining what someone's primary properties are and what rights should be put into place to preserve equality, but the same can't be had for secondary properties. So it is easy to say issues pertaining to primary rights are much more important that issues pertaining to secondary rights. We can't force people to agree on things pertaining to secondary differences nor can we say discrimination of secondary properties is on the same level as discrimination of primary properties (not saying discrimination of secondary properties should be disregarded, just saying it is not clear cut).

    On the matter of homophobia; first off this is bad use of language. I have never met a person who was afraid of gay people, especially not on the same level as someone with arachnophobia is afraid of spiders. The word has been used to hash people who don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle as primitive people who's social status is that of a racist which is simply crazy if you ask me. People are allowed to disagree with your lifestyle, but still accept you. I can never disagree with the "black lifestyle", because there is no "black lifestyle." However if someone disagrees with someone being gay, they still need to support their voting rights, their right to live safely, etc.

    The only matter to be cared for in regard of gay people is the preservation of their basic/primary rights. Gay people should not be physical harmed because they are gay nor should they be denied work because they are gay nor should they be bullied in general because they are gay. However, it is a secondary property as such you can be denied secondary services (services that are not primary services, like finance, medical aid, food, water, physical living conditions, security, education, transportation, etc) for this property. Owners of businesses pertaining to secondary services like those who accommodate special events (weddings, parties, performances) do have the right to deny service. I mean it is in their best financial interests to accept everyone anyways, but it is still their choice since their beliefs don't conflict with the primary rights of the person they are denying.

    Are also would like to comment on something. If Christian's "punish" people for being gay, they are not acting on Christian principles, as the bible tells them precisely *not* to do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Listen, man. I don't have a single problem with your logic. There was a time when I believed the Mega Smiteman Big-G God was a thing, and back then, I might've agreed with you.

    What I can't look past now is what happens when you look at the abrahamic ban on homosexuality through an evo-biology lens. Christianity didn't just punish same-sex activity, traditionally it abhorred any sexual interaction that wasn't no-movement benis-in-bagina missionary-position for the strict purpose of reproduction. That last part is what puts the gay-ban in a whole different light.

    If a culture bans any expression of sexuality that doesn't result in breeding, and the human population naturally has a sex drive as it has through the whole of history, they're gonna breed a lot. Their numbers will exceed that of any other group that condones non-reproductive sex activity. They'll have more followers. They'll have larger armies. They'll be the likeliest group to survive through a filter event, and they will be selected for much like a trait is selected in evolution.
    Catholics often don't even try to hide this intention as they're also the harshest against any form of contraception.

    It's also no secret that Judaism was the one that started the stone-the-gaize practice. And the takeaway many historians get from studying Judaism over time was that its practices were highly concerned with preserving the Hebrew culture's longevity and social cohesion by any means necessary. This was an army of people who invaded countries, committed mass-rapes, and plundered lands for resources. Their "eugenic" practices, their pragmatism, was directly responsible for the religion lasting as long as it did, and bits of this pragmatism, but not the whole of it, survived into Christianity.


    And if your God is concerned with preserving the fecundity of his followers even to the point of killing genetic deviants (ones that can't breed for him), that must imply he is invested in the genetic quality of his followers. Which means an individual's hereditary strength may determine whether or not one can be God's "child," or whether or not he can love them. If this were the case, God may refuse to love you simply because you're too weak or degenerate for his standards, possibly even if by no fault of your own. Which clashes with the common Christian wisdom that god loves the weak and poor in spirit especially.
    Why else would your god insist on how important it is to show no concern for your earthly survival, to doggedly follow his commands even if it ends your own life?
    It's so you can't run away if he decides to cull you off.

    The logical conclusion of your god's commands is that our earthly toils are a breeding ground he runs, and we are the livestock. Which would make him a master little different than Natural Selection itself, making him redundant at best. And as anyone who's observed nature would know, Natural Selection is a cruel tyrant whose exploits none of us should condone.
    And, you could argue that god's intentions shouldn't be deduced or assumed based on their affects by this kind of logic, because he is beyond our understanding and does not operate by our logic. But if you believe in this God because of logical arguments, you should also conclude that his intentions are similarly logical as well.
    If your reason for following him is not out of logic, but arbitrary faith alone.......what the hell are you doing???
    Ok. So where is the line drawn from right and wrong? Who makes the rules and why?

    Bro in the end believe what you wanna believe man. I’m just correcting some misconceptions on the other side.

    FYI I’m not gonna discuss this heavily because there’s nothing else be said.
    Last edited by Bill Nye; 10-15-2019 at 08:27 PM.
    Even gravity won't hold back your tears from science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Ok. So where is the line drawn from right and wrong? Who makes the rules and why?
    Depending on who you ask, either the religious ruling class at the time, or whatever god exists, but that's where we're left in the dark. I tend to believe the option that has more info available to work with - that is, the human religious rulers did it - has more potential.

    I guess the binary choice is between: believing God exists, and fearing he will destroy everything and thus following his commands at any costs to save humanity, even if it results in one's own self-destruction; or, valuing the lowest common denominator of humanity (a group of higher numbers) over the few who are clean in God's eyes, finding the outcome of his will so unacceptable that even the risk of everyone being annihilated together if he exists, preferable to humanity being ruled by self-perpetuating tyranny in his name if it turns out he doesn't.
    There's probably less moral hubris in the first, but it's also gnostic, while only the second is agnostic. Divine Wager can be applied to the existence of just about anything, godlike or not, so it's a bit of a poor mental tool. And I'll admit, the romantic appeal of self-sacrifice in the first is lost to me in a world where everyone's actions are so inconsequential.

    Bro in the end believe what you wanna believe man. I’m just correcting some misconceptions on the other side.
    Tru. I'm just offering some things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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