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Thread: Let's talk about Homophobia + Aristocracy and Democracy

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    In rural areas, I think you see this because they learn it from their parents and paternalism is kind of the "cool thing." They may have a thin veneer of some biblical or personal reason for this, but most of them are too disconnected from the medieval thinking that spawned this to believe in any sense beyond a sort of loyalty to their clan.

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    Betas are most homophobic? I thought Betas were also the ones most likely to be SJWs that fight for gay rights. Perhaps Betas just shine the most compared to the other quadras so you notice a homophobic Beta more than the other ones.

    But I think it's the opposite. Delta is the quadra most likely known for conservative Christianity and there are a lot of homophobic str8 male LSEs wearing business suits and tacky cowboy hats lol. It's true many IEEs stick up for gay rights....but then they secretly laugh at the gay guy not being able to play sports well with their SLI/LSE family members.

    In the purest and rawest way, I agree that Gammas are the least likely to be homophobic and just not give a shit either way if somebody is gay or not. That's kind of the highest ideal, it's a non-issue as somebody having blue eyes or being left-handed.

    I'm probably heterophobic in the sense that I don't feel like I fit in well with typical str8 bar culture. Not that I always feel at home in some gay bar with a corny rainbow flag but if I'm being honest with myself, yeah I'd most likely fit in there better than I would a str8 people bar. And the str8 people I do tend to get along with are the uppity liberal ones from colleges. I'm pretty on the fence about the SJW thing but 97% of the time I would get along with a 'SJW' more better than I would some homophobic redneck dude. I've noticed women who are like Kim Davis giving me dirty looks when I go to Wal-Mart lol. But I think this conflict is interesting.

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    On the flip side, which types are likeliest to be gay?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moou View Post
    On the flip side, which types are likeliest to be gay?
    Not type related
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    a two horned unicorn renegade Nihilist 007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I'm probably heterophobic in the sense that I don't feel like I fit in well with typical str8 bar culture. .
    I'm probably anthropophobic then, lol.

    Anyway, I find that people should be extra careful for not mixing up phobia, philia, and hate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    Aramas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Aramas, two things.

    One, your particular line of DNA will terminate. Your direct line has been reproducing for 4.5 billion years, but that's not to say it will continue to do so.

    Two, you will probably die with lots of toys. (Kids are expensive, but in my own opinion, worth it.)
    The Earth has been around that long. But I doubt Evolution has been going on quite that long. Maybe 3.2 billion years. Unless you have at least 2 kids, the same will probably happen to you, statistically.

    I have thought about the DNA thing. Doesn't seem that important to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    The Earth has been around that long. But I doubt Evolution has been going on quite that long. Maybe 3.2 billion years. Unless you have at least 2 kids, the same will probably happen to you, statistically.

    I have thought about the DNA thing. Doesn't seem that important to me.
    I'd like to have more kids.

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    there is some humour
    the least acceptance of homosexuality (the most open aversion to it) and the most often open expression of homosexuality relates to the same quadra - beta

    nonvalued Ne predisposes to avoid strange, valued Fe predisposes to strict social norms
    while
    nonvalued Si predisposes to abnormal sexual practice
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    there is some humour
    the least acceptance of homosexuality (the most open aversion to it) and the most often open expression of homosexuality relates to the same quadra - beta

    nonvalued Ne predisposes to avoid strange, valued Fe predisposes to strict social norms
    while
    nonvalued Si predisposes to abnormal sexual practice
    What function predisposes one to reach bizarre conclusions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    What function predisposes one to reach bizarre conclusions?
    Se Devalued and in the subconscious blocks. Idealistic thinking and feelings towards people and relationships. Setting standards that can not be matched in reality leading to misenthropy and difficulty in actual relationships. LSE

    My significant exactly
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think I once saw a Socionics definition of “Aristocracy” as being more willing to assign traits previously associated with a group to an individual, if they believe that an individual belongs in that group.

    This seems to me to be prejudicial thinking, in the sense that it “pre-judges” a person by association, rather than taking that person as an individual.

    In one sense, it is lazy thinking, and in another it is “quick and frequently accurate” thinking. If you see a tiger, it is probably a good thing to have some prejudices regarding its most likely behavior.

    (Even though I am in a democratic Quadra, I initially use previous associations to pre-judge people. I do keep an open mind to new information, though, and so am always willing to modify my prejudices if facts or circumstances dictate.)

    The problem that many minorities face is being associated with negative traits, since assigning negative traits to a group is an effective way to exclude that group from sharing in the resources of the majority group.

    Trump does this all the time. He isn’t the President of the U.S., he is a divider of society, for the purpose of increasing the wealth of the established. What most people who support him don’t understand is that he doesn’t consider them to be in his own group. His actions make that abundantly clear, to those who aren’t blinded by their fear of losing status (and therefore access to resources) themselves.

    All societies seem to create minority groups within themselves. Every country has them. The minorities fight back against this external labeling of themselves by attempting to rename themselves periodically. Negroes became blacks, who became African-Americans. This relabeling can help give the minority access to new considerations and new associations, but the real solution is to change the way that resources are allocated.

    After all, ideally, you would not choose whether or not to feed and clothe your children based on their handedness ot hair color.
    America has been divided ever since its creation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    there is some humour
    the least acceptance of homosexuality (the most open aversion to it) and the most often open expression of homosexuality relates to the same quadra - beta

    nonvalued Ne predisposes to avoid strange, valued Fe predisposes to strict social norms
    while
    nonvalued Si predisposes to abnormal sexual practice
    Idk dude. I don't think Si/Se has anything to do with kinky. That's different. I've seen kinky people of all quadras.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    i remember one russian socionics article (might have been parfenov) branding beta as the most bigoted quadra ��

    personally i'd think... wouldn't beta rile the most for a social cause i.e. against oppression and discriminatory bias? it really depends on what group they are part of, though. what branch of historical ideology you belong to is everything in beta, that is what makes them aristocratic.
    I think it's more that Betas like blabbing about their perspectives and views a lot more openly. So they can be homophobic or SJW, but either way you're going to know it. Forthright I guess. Look at Hillary Clinton and the way she said flatout "No" to gay marriage in the past. Then when she was the Democratic candidate she said she had always supported gay rights. It was a total lie and contradiction that was made because she had openly expressed her personal perspective against it in the past. She did all that in spite of boos from the audience of the time and just laughed openly at them. That's beta. Speak their minds all the time and if anyone doesn't like it, screw them. Unless the betas are scheming, then they're the most obsequious fucks on the planet.

    This applies more to Beta Js but still.

    Deltas are always half nice and half rude.
    Last edited by Aramas; 04-19-2019 at 12:53 AM.

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    This applies more to Beta Js but still.
    You sound kind of overly harsh/bitter when you talk about the Beta scheming thing but I think you are spot on. I am a Beta P but I find myself scheming like that often. LoL I mostly do it though if I feel trapped inside a Delta organization and the only way out is for me to manipulate others. As if I used honesty or anything non-scheming/
    obsequious, I'd just make things worse for myself. So we Betas can be like that for good reasons.

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    Pretty sure homophobia, like racism, has more to do with ignorance more than anything.

    The trouble is that you can make any kind of correlations. You can say "I know someone who eats oranges a lot that are homophobic. It must be that eating oranges make you homophobic."

    People are barking up the wrong tree when they go "It's the Betas! No, it's the Deltas!" quadra warz which is ironically just yet another stereotyping and prejudices. It doesn't have anything to do with the root of homophobia or any other prejudices.

    Prejudices are ideas, and they're not necessarily rooted in persons. Prejudices can be created, prejudices can be transfered to others. And prejudices can be ended with the right ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Pretty sure homophobia, like racism, has more to do with ignorance more than anything.

    The trouble is that you can make any kind of correlations. You can say "I know someone who eats oranges a lot that are homophobic. It must be that eating oranges make you homophobic."

    People are barking up the wrong tree when they go "It's the Betas! No, it's the Deltas!" quadra warz which is ironically just yet another stereotyping and prejudices. It doesn't have anything to do with the root of homophobia or any other prejudices.

    Prejudices are ideas, and they're not necessarily rooted in persons. Prejudices can be created, prejudices can be transfered to others. And prejudices can be ended with the right ideas.
    They will never be ended though. There will always be stupid people around believing in them and unwilling to change. They can be reduced, but never fully eliminated, like religion. Bad ideas spread faster than people can learn their way out of them. Many people don't want to take the time. They are lazy, indifferent, create counter systems of thought, like anti-intellectualism for example, to resist reducing their own ignorance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmers View Post
    They will never be ended though. There will always be stupid people around believing in them and unwilling to change. They can be reduced, but never fully eliminated, like religion. Bad ideas spread faster than people can learn their way out of them. Many people don't want to take the time. They are lazy, indifferent, create counter systems of thought, like anti-intellectualism for example, to resist reducing their own ignorance.
    Probably, and stereotypes might sometimes be rational or necessary.

    However, I can think of two situations where people could be prejudiced:

    1) is "Well all the gay people that I've met so far have been bad. That's been my experience, so who are you to tell me otherwise?".

    and 2) is "Well I don't know any gay people, but I'm sure that they're bad."

    1) is clearly lacking in imagination, but 2) seems to be entirely made up of imagination. However on a closer inspection, 2) is selective imagination, and it does not consider any other alternatives. One can imagine, for example "Well if gay people can be bad, then can they also be good?" "How can ALL gay people be bad? There must be others that are good. If they were bad, then what causes them to be bad?" etc, etc. Curiosity is what dispels prejudices.

    So I think that prejudices are conclusions that you make when you don't consider any alternatives to incomplete information. You might jump to a conclusion and say "That's Ne PoLR!", but I don't think so. I think that almost anyone has the capability to rationally think up of an alternative. It's just that for some people, it might be difficult to think up of different things and different scenarios, as that takes a lot of effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
    It depends on the upbringing, not on the sociotype or reinin dichotomy. Socionics is nice and all but useless when people try to apply it to complex matters like homophobia.
    IME most alphas I've met are vegans but that does not mean that alphas are more likely to be vegan. It's a coincidence. Or if I try really hard: a correlation. But not a causation like alpha=>vegan
    Mostly this.

    Anecdotally, I grew up in a racist, sexist, homophobic place raised by racist, sexist, homophobic parents. They were gamma. I started to realize something was wrong by the time I was 3. I didn’t fit into the town or my family because of my questioning and rejecting the values around me.

    As for why I didn’t adopt all the values I was raised with, I think it was

    * influence of mass culture, which had largely moved away from these backward ideas
    * avid reading, which means both dealing with facts and developing insight
    * taking things, such as religion, at face value in a search for logic (“love thy neighbor” means every neighbor)
    * going to school with people of color; being a theater nerd with all the fabulous gay friends

    My experience with betas is that they will fight about what they think is right or at least will be vocal about it. So if they are homophobic or racist they might not pull punches or be secretive. Therefore you’ll just notice beta homophobes and racists more than the same from other quadras.
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    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    "If God hates gay people, why does he keep making them?"
    That is the start of a huge debate which brings out questions which nobody seems to be able to answer to actually. If God is omnipotent, he knows the nature of the human he creates, and combined with the environment in which he creates him, he knows if he will be a good person or a bad person, if he will be religious or not, if he will commit suicide or not, then why does he recreate an already clear scenario? It is like watching a movie over and over again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Look at France during the Reign of Terror period if you want to see Democratic quadras gone bad.
    Interesting. Any suggestions for books/resources?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmers View Post
    Men create(d) god(s) and religions surrounding them to control groups of people, especially for things pertaining to survival, like war and reproduction. Sin was one of those imaginary concepts that was attached to homosexuality because basically it doesn't lead to reproduction and heaven forbid, people enjoy orgasms and bodily pleasure with people they are attracted to. You are supposed to save yourself for the mind blowing existential orgasm known as heaven, or for an eternal existence of tranquility; take your pick. It is hard to control people who do what feels right and good to them on a personal level. It jeopardizes the hierarchy and authority.
    Yes, there would still be homophobia if religion never existed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    So in other words, you're saying that beta homophobia is just a way of jockeying for position by engaging in exclusive behavior. That makes a lot of sense. It didn't make much sense to me as a thing in itself. Some Betas are not homophobic at all and some are gay themselves. But homophobia as a method for reducing competition for positions in a hierarchy does make sense.

    Respect isn't really a thing though. Everyone has a different set of behaviors they define as being respectful.
    In an Islamic society where premarital sex is forbidden and punished by law, where the woman would be killed and the man faced extreme punishment if there are witnesses and reports of such relations, I have met many young men, one of whom was a SLE, who due to extreme gender segregation, chose to please themselves sexually with their same sex friends. Afterwards I had the chance to observe most homophobic men in such societies, have had experiences or are in relation with the same sex. This particular SLE however was extremely homophobic, and did not find this paradox disturbing by any means. He had his fun when the opportunity existed, and to the eye of the society, he was respected as a boy loyal to his hierarchy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
    It depends on the upbringing, not on the sociotype or reinin dichotomy. Socionics is nice and all but useless when people try to apply it to complex matters like homophobia.
    IME most alphas I've met are vegans but that does not mean that alphas are more likely to be vegan. It's a coincidence. Or if I try really hard: a correlation. But not a causation like alpha=>vegan
    No it doesn't depend on upbringing, my family members were homophobic and I was raised in a society which punishes homosexuality by execution

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moou View Post
    On the flip side, which types are likeliest to be gay?
    ESI men perhaps?

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    The fact that someone connects such a difficult sociological issue with socionics rises a lot of questions. This, obviously, has nothing to do with socionics but with general openness, empathy, IQ and the background, upbringing of the person. It's really disturbing that someone would connect this with a type, homophobia is not a joke and is not related to typology whatsoever. It's a deep rooted important and complex issue of the modern world that needs to be solved by means of empathy and education. My theory is... once, if every single person had to come in a contact with someone from minorities, they would behave differently to them. I think it should be mandatory for high school students to help and meet people from minorities who have been bullied for their race, orientation or other differences, to see what it really feels like to be prejudged and humiliated for being who you really are. This thread itself is a manifestation of ignorance and mockery of something, that should NOT exist in the 21st century.
    Art, freedom and creativity will change society faster than politics.
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    Upbringing involves the era when you live too, the people you meet on your road, not just your family and cultural environment. I was raised a catholic, never had a problem with gay couples, contraceptives, abortions, like most catholics do, that's all due to the millennial influences I've been breathing. My ESI muslim ex was born and raised in London, he for sure incorporated the muslim strict environment as well as the extreme openness of the city, all in his upbringing.

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    Hm... Dunno about that. My LSI mom would be much more likely to point out that regardless of how she personally views homosexual people, the fact is that people who live in the country we live in wouldn't easily if ever accept such things given how extremely religious and still quite 'conservative/patriarchal' most people around here are, while my ESE father especially given that I tend to speak much more supportive of LGBTI+ people, would be more likely to hide his judgements on the matter even if he personally is much more religious and tends to follow 'common sense' of his culture much more.

    Also, in my uni friend group, one that is often most troubled by people scorning others for the labels attached to them is IEI friend who is at this point only tangentially tied to the group (mostly because she gets along with me and the ESI friend -who himself is gay-) so I can see that she would find it most pointless that what is it the matter to anyone that who loves who. Also, most homophobic and in general making Nazi 'jokes' person that became too toxic (and had other stuff going on) that he got kicked out of the friend group was an ILI, while aforementioned ESI friend is a pretty open about it gay guy, so hm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    The fact that someone connects such a difficult sociological issue with socionics rises a lot of questions. This, obviously, has nothing to do with socionics but with general openness, empathy, IQ and the background, upbringing of the person. It's really disturbing that someone would connect this with a type, homophobia is not a joke and is not related to typology whatsoever. It's a deep rooted important and complex issue of the modern world that needs to be solved by means of empathy and education. My theory is... once, if every single person had to come in a contact with someone from minorities, they would behave differently to them. I think it should be mandatory for high school students to help and meet people from minorities who have been bullied for their race, orientation or other differences, to see what it really feels like to be prejudged and humiliated for being who you really are. This thread itself is a manifestation of ignorance and mockery of something, that should NOT exist in the 21st century.
    "really disturbing someone would connect this with type" - That's how we learn sometimes. Asking questions no one wants to ask. Thinking thoughts that are forbidden. Doesn't mean they're "right" in any way. But it's necessary sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    The fact that someone connects such a difficult sociological issue with socionics rises a lot of questions. This, obviously, has nothing to do with socionics but with general openness, empathy, IQ and the background, upbringing of the person. It's really disturbing that someone would connect this with a type, homophobia is not a joke and is not related to typology whatsoever. It's a deep rooted important and complex issue of the modern world that needs to be solved by means of empathy and education. My theory is... once, if every single person had to come in a contact with someone from minorities, they would behave differently to them. I think it should be mandatory for high school students to help and meet people from minorities who have been bullied for their race, orientation or other differences, to see what it really feels like to be prejudged and humiliated for being who you really are. This thread itself is a manifestation of ignorance and mockery of something, that should NOT exist in the 21st century.
    You are concluding without evidence. Bring examples and reasoning for why Socionics has "nothing" to do with it please. Cause that is what we do in the 21st century. Openly discuss ideas and reason.

    We know as a fact that Socionics can predict parameters such as empathy and general openness to a good extent.
    And no. Homophobia is not a joke. Nobody said it was. Socionics isn't a joke either

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    Upbringing involves the era when you live too, the people you meet on your road, not just your family and cultural environment. I was raised a catholic, never had a problem with gay couples, contraceptives, abortions, like most catholics do, that's all due to the millennial influences I've been breathing. My ESI muslim ex was born and raised in London, he for sure incorporated the muslim strict environment as well as the extreme openness of the city, all in his upbringing.
    True. It depends how willing you are to expose yourself to new things as well as the millennial, because in every era there are things which can be brought to light for the sake of humanity.

    A Muslim ESI who had also incorporated London openness? That would be an interesting paradox... Can you maybe say what it was like?
    Because I have also seen this paradox before. ESI is attracted to the modern way of things and new experiences and diversity, but will try to stay faithful to their childhood family and beliefs as well, it can be really confusing in their relationships as adults. (If bringing up things about your ex is too unpleasant feel free to ignore )

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    @Zero, no problem at all. He's one of the people I love and care for the most, no bad feelings left, we just came to the realization we were not going in the same directions, our own problems brought us together initially, he's been my shoulder for some 2 years, but after we recovered a bit, eventually we figured out we were better without each other.

    He suffered from some mental illness, panic attacks and some hallucinating states..., I think it's even due to the contrast you highlight. He was veeeery attached to his home environment, to his mum (he would listen to everything she suggested), he loves his lil nephews more than anything else, and in the same time he was all about discovering the newest trends in what he liked, a big passion of his, and get his hands dirty doing illegal stuff... he was an atheist though, I mean, I'd often mock his islamic background, and he would be like "just let's sit here with my Buddha statue and candles and meditate", lol. He was not religious, didn't care of that, yet had the best insights into humans I've ever seen in a guy. He'd point out the core of someone in 2 words (not always flattering)... that was a bit shallow to me, but he was always right. He was very judgemental too, but I always thought it was for fun more than anything, in fact most of his "harshest" opinions changed after time... and he's never been a homophobic, in fact he had some gay tendencies himself, which I found very charming

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    The fact that someone connects such a difficult sociological issue with socionics rises a lot of questions. This, obviously, has nothing to do with socionics but with general openness, empathy, IQ and the background, upbringing of the person. It's really disturbing that someone would connect this with a type, homophobia is not a joke and is not related to typology whatsoever. It's a deep rooted important and complex issue of the modern world that needs to be solved by means of empathy and education. My theory is... once, if every single person had to come in a contact with someone from minorities, they would behave differently to them. I think it should be mandatory for high school students to help and meet people from minorities who have been bullied for their race, orientation or other differences, to see what it really feels like to be prejudged and humiliated for being who you really are. This thread itself is a manifestation of ignorance and mockery of something, that should NOT exist in the 21st century.
    i want to provide feedback here
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    i remember one russian socionics article (might have been parfenov) branding beta as the most bigoted quadra 

    personally i'd think... wouldn't beta rile the most for a social cause i.e. against oppression and discriminatory bias? it really depends on what group they are part of, though. what branch of historical ideology you belong to is everything in beta, that is what makes them aristocratic.
    Actually they do both being authoritarian by nature - whatever moral institution they favour, they actually "fight" the cultural war to make sure only their worldview is the most dominant one. Beta have the aggressive defense of which ever values their demand to be the only one present. Betas are loud, brush, and "unstable" - in their desire to domineer culture. I distinctive describe them as relatively "unstable" because the influence of Betas is only felt as long as they overall domineering force present.

    Deltas are passively authoritarian, inflexible on their own absolute morality. They influence society through passively upholding their values and influencing the fabric of society. A delta dominated social fabric is more stable - difficult to uproot given how it's impervious to force only changing with great difficulty through changes made to the culture's soul.

    If you want to look at historical parallels:
    The American Civil Rights revolution was a Beta upheaval, whilst the British equivalent (60s cultural revolution) despite hostility was more relatively "orderly" were the morality of the culture and underlying institutions were what had to be changed.

    Gammas are chaotically individualistic whilst Alphas are passively individualistic - but things get complicated because all quadras have an both an active and suppressed side. Individualists have a suppressed authoritarian side and it's vice versa for authoritarians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    You are concluding without evidence. Bring examples and reasoning for why Socionics has "nothing" to do with it please. Cause that is what we do in the 21st century. Openly discuss ideas and reason.

    We know as a fact that Socionics can predict parameters such as empathy and general openness to a good extent.
    And no. Homophobia is not a joke. Nobody said it was. Socionics isn't a joke either
    Yes she was concluding without evidence but her intuition on the matter is true, a lot of reductive approaches to socionics that generate easy answers aren't rooted in fact but rather anecdotal conjectures.

    The more cultures one get's exposed to the more it becomes apparent that some values aren't type related at all. Furthermore, the more you honesty try to type people, the more you'll honestly realise that shoehorning labels doesn't work (to many contradictions and overlaps) - unless you personally want to retard your socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    You are concluding without evidence. Bring examples and reasoning for why Socionics has "nothing" to do with it please. Cause that is what we do in the 21st century. Openly discuss ideas and reason.

    We know as a fact that Socionics can predict parameters such as empathy and general openness to a good extent.
    And no. Homophobia is not a joke. Nobody said it was. Socionics isn't a joke either
    You should always consider the possibility that something could be wrong. If you don't, then ironically it's dogmatism which is what creates prejudiced thinking.

    Anyway, if you're saying that homophobia is determined by Socionics types, then you're essentially saying that homophobia is genetically determined, or at least it's set in stone since birth. Then you're going to have to explain how the mechanism of it causes homophobic behavior. If it is genetic, then which gene causes it? And so on and so forth.

    Also it's not much use saying that you have predicted something, and then it has accurately predicted! Because then it could have just been a lucky guess, or you're not setting the boundary for the timeline for when the person will supposedly become homophobic. I'm sure that you're also not counting all the times when the prediction has been wrong and the person was not homophobic.

    Anyway, I don't think that it's a good idea to think that something like homophobia is set in stones and is deterministic. I would agree with @Freya's general sentiment that it has mostly to do with education. It's mostly something that happens in society after birth, which can't be determined by birth.

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    Dogmatic usage of a concept against groups of people to speak out and vent about one’s experience suffering under dogmatism against groups of people. Making leaps and bounds here people!

    I think it might be particularly likely for some types who are typically “straight” in their type’s gender and “strict/conservative”, if they were raised in an unprogressive area. Like sure, I could easily see a bi-curious SLE male in a socially precarious situation in a super strict Muslim community using the popular opinion of homophobia in that situation to leverage themselves. That’s sort of extreme though and similar toxic dynamics would be going on with other types. I’ve personally experienced homophobia from all quadras. If you’re bitter and venting here though, I get it. (: Just kidding, it’s actually just a bad use of butthurtness. Pun exactly intended.


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    Certain types are more likely to be in your face, articulate harsh stances, get into active conflict about them... on top of that more likely to be motivated to get to the top of power structures that happen to enforce these kinds of positions (among other things). Doesn't mean Betas are more or more likely to be homophobic, all we can really say it that they're going to be louder about when they are.

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    I'm just now reading an article about how a big reason why gay people were accepted so fast in the mainstream, is that gayness isn't inherently visible at first like being black or overweight or disabled or other 'minority status' so people come to know the person first THEN they realized they were gay. They already liked them (or not) in the first place, and simply being gay doesn't change that for most people.

    But this isn't always true, of course. (Why are all news articles so Delta IEE-ish?) When I was younger especially, I was a very 'obviously faggoty fag gay' and you knew it instantly you saw me - or knew it the moment I tried to play team sports or try to talk about cars. People that lived all the way in Alert, Canada could tell I was fag. And I could never be like the popular macho gay that was subtle about being gay, I was just always an obnoxious in your face faggot like the Beta I am =D. I think gayness does have an external objectivity to it in a sense, it's just not really always about internal feelings. With some men you clearly know right away the millisecond you meet them, and some you don't. Some gay guys have faggy voices, others sound just like an average manly man you would meet anywhere. This is why there is tops and bottoms.

    In fact, I have gotten this a lot in my life 'I don't like bnd because he's gay, I don't like him because he's TOO gay.' Yeah, I am definitely too gay. Guilty as charged. But some guys are over the top gay - other people just need to deal. They need love and acceptance as much as the cool, subtler ones. The over the top gays are a big reason why the macho, more cool guys are accepted anyway!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    It's true many IEEs stick up for gay rights....but then they secretly laugh at the gay guy not being able to play sports well with their SLI/LSE family members.
    Blegh.

    Straight people are gross.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I'm just now reading an article about how a big reason why gay people were accepted so fast in the mainstream, is that gayness isn't inherently visible at first like being black or overweight or disabled or other 'minority status' so people come to know the person first THEN they realized they were gay. They already liked them (or not) in the first place, and simply being gay doesn't change that for most people.

    But this isn't always true, of course. (Why are all news articles so Delta IEE-ish?) When I was younger especially, I was a very 'obviously faggoty fag gay' and you knew it instantly you saw me - or knew it the moment I tried to play team sports or try to talk about cars. People that lived all the way in Alert, Canada could tell I was fag. And I could never be like the popular macho gay that was subtle about being gay, I was just always an obnoxious in your face faggot like the Beta I am =D. I think gayness does have an external objectivity to it in a sense, it's just not really always about internal feelings. With some men you clearly know right away the millisecond you meet them, and some you don't. Some gay guys have faggy voices, others sound just like an average manly man you would meet anywhere. This is why there is tops and bottoms.

    In fact, I have gotten this a lot in my life 'I don't like bnd because he's gay, I don't like him because he's TOO gay.' Yeah, I am definitely too gay. Guilty as charged. But some guys are over the top gay - other people just need to deal. They need love and acceptance as much as the cool, subtler ones. The over the top gays are a big reason why the macho, more cool guys are accepted anyway!
    I recently watched a documentary about Stonewall and a group of white gay men who did not want to be associated with gay people of color and trans people. White privilege still goes a long way.

    Also, it's astounding how afraid people are when their gender perceptions are challenged. It's like they go into panic mode: OMG I CAN'T TELL WHAT GENDER YOU ARE OR IF YOU ARE GAY OR STRAIGHT OH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING DOWN! NATURE DID NOT WANT THIS YOU HAVE A PENIS YOU CANNOT DO THIS PLEASE THINK OF YOUR PENIS!
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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