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Thread: Se, Si, Territory, Resources, Etc.

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    Default Se, Si, Territory, Resources, Etc.

    Se and Si are both involved in the management of turf and territory. This is perhaps different from the
    mainstream idea of Se being associated with territory and Si with comfort, homeostasis, etc.

    The difference between Se and Si is that Se takes a masculine, active, yang approach to the acquisition
    and management of territory, due to its quality of extroversion. Its defense of territory is proactive, and
    it acts in a manner similar to the idea, "The best defense is a good offense." Extroverted sensing types are always trying to gain territory, because the extroverted elements act based on a positive feedback loop. That is why Se-based quadras (Beta and Gamma) often tend to have an acquisitive mindset. They feel a need to gain territory to protect the territory that they have. They feel a need to gain more resources to protect the ones that they already have. The more resources they gain, the more they can mtaintain what they have.

    Because Se operates from a principle of positive feedback, in order to check and balance Se, it is
    necessary to provide Se with an impulse that is equal in force, strength, or magnitude to prevent Se
    from overstepping its boundaries. The idea of "mutually assured destruction" is similar to how Se
    thinks about defense, offense, and territory. We don't attack them, because they would attack us if we
    did. We don't try to hurt them, because we know they have the power to hurt us. If someone (or something) does not exert an impulse of Se of equal or slightly greater magnitude, Se will simply overstep a boundary without conscience, and it will have a tendency to call whatever allowed it to do
    so "weak." The conscience of Se is gained by a variety of experiences that check the positive feedback loops and establish a static equilibrium in which the Se type does not exceed itself because it would be disastrous to do so. If one can imagine it, think of a bunch of "Se" points all exerting force equally around themselves, and reaching a static point at which everyone has the necessary amount of space or "Lebensraum" because everyone exerts the necessary amount of force at all times to maintain this static equilibrium.

    When Se characterizes a sensory impulse as weak, its tendency is to offer a corresponding strong
    impulse -- presumably with the intent of taking it over, supplanting it, or overcoming it. Because Se
    operates on the basis of positive feedback, I suppose, though, that the intent of Se is to strengthen the weaker impulse by providing it with positive feedback. In Crowleyan terms, "As brothers fight ye!" It's quite possible that the intent is not pure aggression or an attempt to conquer, but rather to increase the strength of the weaker impulse so that it can maintain its boundaries, because it assumes that other influences operate according to the same positive feedback principles in the context of sensing.In cases where Se types do not feel a check or balance coming from external Se in other sources (or apparent other sources), their tendency becomes overstepping their boundaries repeatedly. Se wants to expand until it can no longer do so, because that /is/ their way of establishing boundaries.Si operates from a completely different principle, but is associated with the same context of the management of territory and resources. In contrast to Se, Si acts from the feminine, passive, yin
    principle due to the introverted nature applied to the context of sensing. Instead of working from the
    principle of positive feedback, it instead works from the idea of negative feedback. Si will note
    "checks" on its territory before attempting to gain and occupy space. If there is no negative feedback
    presented, Si will contentedly occupy a space and manage its resources within that space, only
    expanding whenever there is the opportunity to do so that it cannot anticipate a check being offered in
    return. As such, Si tends to occupy what some would think of as "free space," or space without a claim. Si ego types, for example, tend to not exert themselves in an Se manner so that Si superid types can have the opportunity to occupy space if they so desire. In other words, Si works from the perspective of "negative space." If there is no one else occupying this territory, I will take it for myself -- Si says.

    Before continuing, a confusion must be corrected concerning the ideas of "yin," "the feminine
    element," "introversion," etc. (These things are the same 'thing' applied to different contexts. The same
    principle underlies all these different ideas.) One only thinks of the 'yin' type as being receptive--never
    active. The "truth" of the yin principle is that it is 99% receptive and 1% active. That is, the yin principle exists in passive mode 99% of the time, and on very rare occasion (1% of opportunities), the yin principle will actually exert itself in a way that is muchstronger and forceful even than yang would
    do so. (One can find examples of the truth of this idea by examining the differences in aggression
    between male and female dogs. Male dogs are more consistently aggressive, while female dogs are
    rarely aggressive, but when they do so, they are frighteningly so and more difficult to disengage.)
    The problems that occur between Se and Si types do so because they conflict in their "operating principles." Similarly to the Si method of 99% receptive acquiescence in management of territory, with its 1% dogged acquisitiveness (or "striking" behavior), the yang Se element will switch in very rare cases to the inactive, receptive yin mode and discontinue defending its territory for very short periods of time (1% of cases). Se views the negative space occupied by Si as a legitimate opportunity for
    expansion. Si, however, leaves negative space unoccupied to preserve it for certain cases (certain
    people, certain resources that might be used in the future, etc.). So, when Se sees opportunity, it attacks
    it and attempts to take territory it sees as rightly belonging to it -- because, after all, nobody was using it, so it's mine now, thanks.

    Se can become angry with Si during its short "break moments" when it switches into a yin mode,
    because Si then sees that act of no longer exerting force as a presentation of opportunity to occupy
    space. Si moves in, and Se says, "No, that's not what I had in mind. Get out. This is mine. I was just
    taking a break/having a rest. Why are you here?" Each of these modes contrarily assumes that they are acting according to their own principles instead of a different principle. Se thinks Si is Se. Si thinks Se is Si. So each thinks that the rest breaks or lack of occupying territory is in fact an invitation or
    opportunity, when the offended party never intended for it to be so.

    What people often don't realize is that, even though Si is about comfort, homeostasis, and often has the
    character of the "yin" element, it also has a very strong, yet unoften revealed active mode that is
    shatteringly more offensive than anything Se would attempt to perform. It's just that this is done reactively, often to defend the territory acquired in a negative space that Si then began to perceive as its
    own. Si is, in this sense, kind of like that quiet kid who lets you fuck with him 99 times, but on the
    100th -- complete apeshit. To this kind of behavior, in the context of sensing, Se says, "Oh shit, what
    the fuck is this guy up to, he's fucking crazy!!!"
    Instead of asserting boundaries by establishing an equilibrium of opposiing forces, Si carves out space
    and only offers a "check" occasionally, which can be perceived as an opportunity by Se. If this space is
    offended, Si responds with a catastrophic attack, not merely re-asserting the boundaries it claimed before, but going so far as to offend the space of the confronted Se type, imposing pressure far beyond
    what it would use, as a way of ensuring that the Se types knows its place. Of course, the Se type does
    not understand this sudden imposition of lightning force and pressure, because it did not perceive a
    boundary violation. Se and Si do not set boundaries in the same way, nor do they preserve them in the
    same way.

    When Si superid types are in an Se-oriented environment, my guess is that they often feel as if there is "no space for them." The Se types in question tend to exert constant force with small, rare breaks in between. If the Se types see the Si superid type attempting to acquire space in that intervening break, they perceive it as the Si type being sneaky, selfish, etc., when in reality, the Si superid type is acting according to its natural principle and perceiving the break unconsciously as an invitation. In cases like LII and EII, that is really the only principle the types can act with. Especially for the introverted Si superid types, the result can be an unhealthy body. Si, because it acts according to negative feedback, remains at a low level of operation because it is constantly assailed by Se influences, when Si superid types operate best when being "left to themselves" in a sensory context, not having sensory impulses imposed on them. Si will repair itself over time if left alone. It does not need to be jogged or whipped into shape like the extroverted elements, which operate on external consistent positive feedback, require. And in actuality, attempting to repair the Si superid type with Se will prevent it from recovering. (And yet, Se valuing types constantly attempt to do this and become angry, frustrated, and hateful when their "attempts to help" do not work.)

    Contrarily, in cases when the Si superid type (esp. LII and EII) does not internalize its supposed
    weakness and devalue its own method of natural operation, there is a tendency for that type to assert
    itself in those 1% or .1% of cases and do so catastrophically -- to the genuine surprise of the Se types.
    That is the nature of Si, which is the only thing these two types have. Failing that, when the Si-only
    type devalues itself, it does not assert itself at all and simply views the world as an evil, harsh place that needs to be "perfected." (Remember that Robespierre was LII.)

    And when Se superid types are in an Si environment, my guess is that extroverts continually overstep
    Si-consensus boundaries in a social context, because they feel that they were never “checked”
    appropriately, or were “checked” in a way that was unpredictable and inapprpriate to them. In the case
    of introverts, they operate somewhat more like Si superid types -- they never gain the necessary
    positive feedback -- the clash of arms -- and they remain underdeveloped and incapable of asserting
    themselves in the sensory context.

    A lot of social disagreements come from conflicts on what contexts (feeling, intuition, thinking, and
    sensing) need to be defended and which need to be trained. This disagreement is the essential conflict
    between the quadras: this is up for grabs, if you can take it, while that is sacred and must not be touched. Also, contexts and cases in which people are supposedly needing to be "toughened up" or in
    which they need to be protected from harm.

    Analogically, the difference between Se and Si is like comparing ancient Imperial Rome and today's
    Switzerland of the last 400 years, respectively. Rome, like all empires, sought to acquire territory to
    make itself stable. And only if they could not take a territory would they acquiesce and occupy what
    they then figured was rightly theirs. Switzerland, contrarily, is a small country, but extraordinarily well-
    armed for its size, and historically operated a group of mercenaries for hire. I'm sure everyone has
    heard of Switzerland's compulsive military service for men, the idea they have guns in all the houses in
    Switzerland, if there's an active duty military member there, etc. No one fucks with Switzerland for a number of reasons. It's a nice cozy place where people keep their shit that has been stable for a long
    time, but it is also well-defended territory without the imperialistic attitude in sensory context.

    The Socionical/psychological/sociological dynamic here presented shows a pattern:
    When Se switches into rest mode, Ni has the opportunity to go into active state.
    When Si switches into active mode, Ne has the opportunity to rest.
    (This formula applies to all pairs of information elements, e.g. Ti-Fe, Fi-Te, etc.)

    This waltz, or play of active and passive modes, in the case of introverted elements, and resting states in the case of the extroverted elements, shows the dynamic of how the individual elements
    themselves operate effectively and acquire resources. It also demonstrates how differences in
    boundaries can be perceived, and illustrates why some people might be seen as barbaric, impulsive,
    unpredictable, or selfish from the perspective of opposing quadras.

    The inspiration for this thread was discovered originally by reading Hans J. Eysenck's The Biological Basis of Personality, and applying the idea of cases in which introverted and extroverted individuals are more conditionable, to the idea of resource acquisition and maintenance. For conditionability and stress resistance (resistance to conditionability), see my thread on amendments to Gulenko's concept of the stress resistance of types. This concept expands Eyseneck's view of conditionability differences between introverts and extroverts to a more contextualized perspective that comes from joining it with Socionics. People are either more or less resistant to stress in certain contexts -- not totally and completely resistant to or vulnerable to stress in all cases.

    Considering the idea of "social layers" upon type, I figure that it's also possible for people to profess
    that values contrary to their own quadra, if the social environment they exist in contradicts their native
    strengths and modes. It might be possible to find an Si ego who supports Se, for example, potentially to
    their own detriment. This idea is especially applicable to countries in which people live or local
    geographical environments with a contrary integral type. These people will wonder without discovering
    why they just can't succeed and get ahead, or they will succeed, but be rather bitter about what they had to do to get there. Ego types that profess their id will end up driving away duals and attracting
    conflictors. Etc. People who are forced to act according to the superego will eventually learn how to do so -- but not really -- and will typically be unhappy, because the people they desire always get chased away by their antics. They perceive that they act appropriately (because they've been well-manhandled into a value that opposes who they are), but the interesting party looks at them with disgust. And they have no idea what to do to fix the mistake.These statements are by now probably common knowledge to most people into Socionics for any length of time, but I felt like repeating them to connect all these ideas together. (Could Hitler's Jewish paranoia have come from being born into a Delta or Alpha P family?)

    I will potentially make threads in which I expand the ideas I outlined here for Se & Si to the other
    information elements, if I have the time and interest in doing so.

    The dynamics I've revealed in this thread are actually more complex and interesting than I've let on. Some statements are bound to be wrong, but the essential idea is accurate, I think. More important than anything else is this statement: it's all relative, and there is no wrong or right. This is just the way thingsexist. Perhaps you can extrapolate even more?

    Thanks for reading!

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Extroverted sensing types are always trying to gain territory, because the extroverted elements act based on a positive feedback loop. That is why Se-based quadras (Beta and Gamma) often tend to have an acquisitive mindset.
    This snippet sounds like the second part is logically following from the first part, but it is actually saying the same thing twice. And thus it explains nothing.

    And it is not true either. Se based quadras have an acquisitive mindset because of their sense of entitlement in the first place and are inclined to violate the boundaries and 'rights' of other people. That is the psychological foundation of Se.

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.co...-elements.html
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    This snippet sounds like the second part is logically following from the first part, but it is actually saying the same thing twice. And thus it explains nothing.

    And it is not true either. Se based quadras have an acquisitive mindset because of their sense of entitlement in the first place and are inclined to violate the boundaries and 'rights' of other people. That is the psychological foundation of Se.

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.co...-elements.html
    Sense of entitlement is just a subjective value statement. I doubt they see themselves as entitled more than anyone else does.

    There's a bit of a contrary motive in Se that's hard for Si to see. If they can win or take, they will, but they want you to be stronger too. It's the more accurate explanation of "tough love" or the paradoxical desire of loving something and wanting to destroy it. Fire and ice combined.

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    عالم نفسي thehotelambush's Avatar
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    You seem to have thought this through. Behaviorally you're not far off, but the problem is that Si and Se can't be equated with the types that prioritize them.

    That is, when (say) an Se Vulnerable type is being aggressive that 1% of the time, he is still using Se, not Si, even though Si is still the priority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    You seem to have thought this through. Behaviorally you're not far off, but the problem is that Si and Se can't be equated with the types that prioritize them.

    That is, when (say) an Se Vulnerable type is being aggressive that 1% of the time, he is still using Se, not Si, even though Si is still the priority.
    See that's the point of conflict I had with my other LII friend. I haven't been able to get anyone to see that the introverted elements all have internal splits that make them look quite different depending on whether they are in passive or active state. Si can be mad aggressive, but only very very rarely. It's just something we'll have to disagree on. I've worked it out theoretically and it's symmetrical. But it's hard to get anyone to see it.

    You'll probably say it's such and such a way theoretically according to the model, but this for me is based on observation. So I just think the theory needs fixing up a bit. It's an issue of definition. You probably think that those aggressive moments are Se because that's how it's defined. Basically what I'm saying is that that's not quite how it works "in reality." Ignoring the "tidal wave" moments of the introverted elements is pretty universal. No one gets that idea yet. The rare aggressive Si state is something inherent in Si itself as a capacity and possibility. It doesn't require Se to function. It's also a lot more aggressive than Se. It's just very rare. You can't really characterize that active state Si as Se because they aren't similar in intensity. Se is more like 80% force 99% of the time and Si would be 200% force 1% of the time and 1% in other cases. (It's not quite zero for reasons I don't want to get into yet but anyway. The passive states always assert themselves in micro amounts.)

    In short: what I'm asserting is that there is an unrecognized phenomenon.
    Last edited by Aramas; 04-15-2019 at 02:28 AM.

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    it's like MBTI

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    technical stuff
    I'll have to read this super slowly and conceptualize it.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Se and Si do not set boundaries in the same way, nor do they preserve them in the
    same way.

    My brain must be lagging lol
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    This is one of the best descriptions out there. Maybe even the best one. We need more.

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    Good post, though I do feel like you're talking much more about Beta Se vs Delta Si. Some more examples of Gamma Se vs Alpha Si would be nice. Hmm Bertrand and I don't always see eye to eye but it would be interesting to see his input on that lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Considering the idea of "social layers" upon type, I figure that it's also possible for people to profess
    that values contrary to their own quadra, if the social environment they exist in contradicts their native
    strengths and modes.
    It might be possible to find an Si ego who supports Se, for example, potentially to
    their own detriment. This idea is especially applicable to countries in which people live or local
    geographical environments with a contrary integral type. These people will wonder without discovering
    why they just can't succeed and get ahead, or they will succeed, but be rather bitter about what they had to do to get there.
    Ego types that profess their id will end up driving away duals and attracting conflictors. Etc. People who are forced to act according to the superego will eventually learn how to do so -- but not really -- and will typically be unhappy, because the people they desire always get chased away by their antics. They perceive that they act appropriately (because they've been well-manhandled into a value that opposes who they are), but the interesting party looks at them with disgust. And they have no idea what to do to fix the mistake.These statements are by now probably common knowledge to most people into Socionics for any length of time, but I felt like repeating them to connect all these ideas together.
    The above, particularly, rings very true, IME--I've often pondered a lot about it.

    Sweden, one of my home countries, is a Alpha/Delta cluster fuck that is somewhat stifling for me, let alone my SLE friends, who in particular have often suffered professionally there, to varying extents and degrees--armed with crafty Ti and Fe, their instinct is to test/exploit/evade the logical structures that gird the nation's SiTe/Fe socio-cultural "rationale" by cutting through layers of (perceived and/or actual) burdensome bureaucracy, pre-existing standards, rules and regulations with an "expansive" Se vigor often received as belligerent, hypomanic ferocity and a flagrant disregard for social protocol. Scandinavia is rooted in Jante Law, a code of conduct that views being "extraordinary," overtly ambitious, and anti-establishment as inappropriate and unseemly. A successful SLE restaurateur friend of mine has been in court several times due to unfounded claims (by the jealous, un-charismatic and egregiously in-opportunistic) that he broke the law, when he had only skirted the law...barely. lol Same guy had to go to court for threatening to smack his LII kid on the ass in attempts to get that lethargic fucker up in the morning so as to not be late for school.

    Even myself, as an Se-mobilizer (potent but unwieldy), have often run into troubles in a society that frowns upon "public aggression," and especially because I use it unconsciously, which means it is often beyond my immediate awareness/control; there have been times when I was (impatiently) waiting in a line and every once in a millennia someone would brazenly and disrespectfully cut (which is social anathema in a land that queues with religious piety) and out of nowhere, there would manifest a powerful energy, externally projected by my voice and presence, that on occasion, would quickly lead me to step to someone’s face, no fucks given, as if by temporary "black out." That doesn't fly in Sverige. lol But when visiting family among the favelas in Rio or BedStuy, Brooklyn, no one bats an eyelash at my meek (in comparison) Se "flair ups." And because my Se is trying "to get moving" and subconsciously "wants a lil help," I don't mind it being challenged by Se ego-esque cultures--it feels like a release.

    Moreover, I see the "super ego" block as one's social mask, in my case, ESE (Fe+Si), and for so many early years of my life, Swedish culture pressured me into working that block like a penny whore in Tijuana, all the while feeling (unbeknownst to me until much later) like a complete fraud; traveling the world and living in other countries (especially the LIE friendly NYC) was one of the most liberating and freeing things for my psyche--it allowed me to fully sit in my truth and shed the "neuroses" attached to the Super Ego functions that had become paranoid and unstable af. On the bright side, I probably have a better handle on Fe and Si than most LIEs, but, conversely, that shit did a lot of damage to my self image early on, in that it made me feel defective, which I'd usually react to by literally or figuratively kicking a MFer in the esophagus. Not ideal. Not ideal.
    Last edited by Alonzo; 04-21-2019 at 06:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    The above, particularly, rings very true, IME--I've often pondered a lot about it.

    Sweden, one of my home countries, is a Alpha/Delta cluster fuck that is somewhat stifling for me, let alone my SLE friends, who in particular have often suffered professionally there, to varying extents and degrees--armed with crafty Ti and Fe, their instinct is to test/exploit/evade the logical structures that gird the nation's SiTe/Fe socio-cultural "rationale" by cutting through layers of (perceived and/or actual) burdensome bureaucracy, pre-existing standards, rules and regulations with an "expansive" Se vigor often received as belligerent, hypomanic ferocity and a flagrant disregard for social protocol. Scandinavia is rooted in Jante Law, a code of conduct that views being "extraordinary," overtly ambitious, and anti-establishment as inappropriate and unseemly. A successful SLE restaurateur friend of mine has been in court several times due to unfounded claims (by the jealous, un-charismatic and egregiously in-opportunistic) that he broke the law, when he had only skirted the law...barely. lol Same guy had to go to court for threatening to smack his LII kid on the ass in attempts to get that lethargic fucker up in the morning so as to not be late for school.

    Even myself, as an Se-mobilizer (potent but unwieldy), have often run into troubles in a society that frowns upon "public aggression," and especially because I use it unconsciously, which means it is often beyond my immediate awareness/control; there have been times when I was (impatiently) waiting in a line and every once in a millennia someone would brazenly and disrespectfully cut (which is social anathema in a land that queues with religious piety) and out of nowhere, there would manifest a powerful energy, externally projected by my voice and presence, that on occasion, would quickly lead me to step to someoneís face, no fucks given, as if by temporary "black out." That doesn't fly in Sverige. lol But when visiting family among the favelas in Rio or BedStuy, Brooklyn, no one bats an eyelash at my meek (in comparison) Se "flair ups." And because my Se is suggestive and subconsciously "wants a lil help," I don't mind it being challenged by Se ego-esque cultures--it feels like a release.

    Moreover, I see the "super ego" block as one's social mask, in my case, ESE (Fe+Si), and for so many early years of my life, Swedish culture pressured me into working that block like a penny whore in Tijuana, all the while feeling (unbeknownst to me until much later) like a complete fraud; traveling the world and living in other countries (especially the LIE friendly NYC) was one of the most liberating and freeing things for my psyche--it allowed me to fully sit in my truth and shed the "neuroses" attached to the Super Ego functions that had become paranoid and unstable af. On the bright side, I probably have a better handle on Fe and Si than most LIEs, but, conversely, that shit did a lot of damage to my self image early on, in that it made me feel defective, which I'd usually react to by literally or figuratively kicking a MFer in the esophagus. Not ideal. Not ideal.
    Let's switch places. You can live in America and I'll go to Scandinavia.

    I have a feeling that the reason I've typed as an Se-valuer for such a long time has had something to do with the fact that almost my entire family, on both sides, including my extended family, is Se-valung. I also live in America. America is BetaGamma as fuck.

    It wasn't until I finally learned enough about Socionics to type my family that I discovered how completely I grew up in an Se-only environment. There was no Si whatsoever. Even family friends were all Se valuers.

    That started me thinking: if I grew up around nothing but Se, how does that impact my self-image? Would I try to make myself seem like an Se type because that's how I felt I should be? Even more than that, could that affect how I wanted to perceive myself? The idea that quadra values of an opposing quadra could embed themselves that deeply in someone is something I haven't read much about. The superego can be powerful as shit. I still don't think we've understood it completely.

    You're absolutely right about the paranoia part. I'm glad you mentioned it. I've noticed that having to deal with Se makes me paranoid. Is paranoia a stress response? Something to think about. I've noticed that no matter how hard I try to get along with Se valuers, I often can only do so in rare cases. They tend to be unpredictable. Maybe it's the lack of understanding of the superego elements, and their contrariness to the ego, that makes us paranoid, because the reactions from that area are unpredictable. If you can't tell what will piss someone off, and you get a lot of confusing feedback, that will tend to make you paranoid, I think.

    I'm glad you got my main point: the idea that the superego is actually an internal mask, not just an external mask. It changes how we see ourselves, not just in whether we value ourselves or not, but also what we think our own strengths, weaknesses, and even personal values are.

    Can you imagine a Gamma saying Alpha shit is great and that Gamma sucks? That's what the superego can do, I think.
    Last edited by Aramas; 04-21-2019 at 06:53 PM.

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    nokomis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Let's switch places. You can live in America and I'll go to Scandinavia.

    I have a feeling that the reason I've typed as an Se-valuer for such a long time has had something to do with the fact that almost my entire family, on both sides, including my extended family, is Se-valung. I also live in America. America is BetaGamma as fuck.

    It wasn't until I finally learned enough about Socionics to type my family that I discovered how completely I grew up in an Se-only environment. There was no Si whatsoever. Even family friends were all Se valuers.

    That started me thinking: if I grew up around nothing but Se, how does that impact my self-image? Would I try to make myself seem like an Se type because that's how I felt I should be? Even more than that, could that affect how I wanted to perceive myself? The idea that quadra values of an opposing quadra could embed themselves that deeply in someone is something I haven't read much about. The superego can be powerful as shit. I still don't think we've understood it completely.

    You're absolutely right about the paranoia part. I'm glad you mentioned it. I've noticed that having to deal with Se makes me paranoid. Is paranoia a stress response? Something to think about. I've noticed that no matter how hard I try to get along with Se valuers, I often can only do so in rare cases. They tend to be unpredictable. Maybe it's the lack of understanding of the superego elements, and their contrariness to the ego, that makes us paranoid, because the reactions from that area are unpredictable. If you can't tell what will piss someone off, and you get a lot of confusing feedback, that will tend to make you paranoid, I think.

    I'm glad you got my main point: the idea that the superego is actually an internal mask, not just an external mask. It changes how we see ourselves, not just in whether we value ourselves or not, but also what we think our own strengths, weaknesses, and even personal values are.

    Can you imagine a Gamma saying Alpha shit is great and that Gamma sucks? That's what the superego can do, I think.
    You donít need to move all the way to Scandinavia.. just come to Minneapolis. Itís a very delta/alpha environment here for being in the US.

    Iím currently looking at moving to Chicago (for a number of reasons) which is a far more beta-friendly city.
    ​SLE - Ti

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokomis View Post
    You don’t need to move all the way to Scandinavia.. just come to Minneapolis. It’s a very delta/alpha environment here for being in the US.

    I’m currently looking at moving to Chicago (for a number of reasons) which is a far more beta-friendly city.
    I always felt that Chicago is Gamma. LIE, in particular. More than any other city I've been in. I can see it as being Beta-friendly, too.

    I go there and say to myself, "Yeah, this is the way it's supposed to be." But maybe that is because I'm part Irish.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pupVjQBwASo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4v6aNjGFFk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9jbdgZidu8
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-22-2019 at 04:22 AM.

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    Aramas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokomis View Post
    You don’t need to move all the way to Scandinavia.. just come to Minneapolis. It’s a very delta/alpha environment here for being in the US.

    I’m currently looking at moving to Chicago (for a number of reasons) which is a far more beta-friendly city.
    Haaaa. I'd rather go to Scandi tbh. Seems like it would be a fun adventure to live on another continent and engage with a culture that isn't American.

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    Alonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    You're absolutely right about the paranoia part. I'm glad you mentioned it. I've noticed that having to deal with Se makes me paranoid. Is paranoia a stress response? Something to think about. I've noticed that no matter how hard I try to get along with Se valuers, I often can only do so in rare cases. They tend to be unpredictable. Maybe it's the lack of understanding of the superego elements, and their contrariness to the ego, that makes us paranoid, because the reactions from that area are unpredictable. If you can't tell what will piss someone off, and you get a lot of confusing feedback, that will tend to make you paranoid, I think.
    1.) There have been studies that show paranoia can definitely manifest as a stress response, especially when severe and enduring > look at some who suffer from PTSD, for example, and see monsters in every shadow due to a persistence of environmental onslaughts (war, domestic violence, etc...) against their psyche, at some point in their lives.

    2.) Theoretically, the superego block is ill equipped to defend itself, because it's only suited to passively absorb all outside information/feedback/evaluations from society but without the ability to properly distinguish one set of useful data from another, applied contextually (e.g., at times, especially when receiving some sort of "customer service," I neurotically "thank," "excuse" myself, say "please" even when uncalled for probably, because I don't want to look like an uncivilized, ungrateful tool and can't fully hold onto/remember/retain when it's appropriate or not for certain Fe "niceties"); therefore, you're bound to stumble upon a situation where you do something "socially inept" and look like a fucking tool; what's worse is that we are conscious of our shortcomings on this block and know that we must react to save face/be accepted/look socially competent, but the reaction mobilizes the ego block and, as we've already covered, the responses from the ego block are not always acceptable (by society's standards) for the situation at hand, which then prompts further usage of the superego, furthering a cycle of frustration and fumbling inadequacy that most certainly GRATES, over time. There have been so many instances where I avoided socializing in certain situations (parties, fancy soirees, etc...) because I was honestly afraid of saying or doing something that would come back to harm me, in some way. And my Si? Herregud. Try to not look anything short of perfectly coiffed down to the finest detail when heading for work in Stockholm and watch what happens. lol At this point, I can handle it, but when I was a teen, it was a nightmare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I'm glad you got my main point: the idea that the superego is actually an internal mask, not just an external mask. It changes how we see ourselves, not just in whether we value ourselves or not, but also what we think our own strengths, weaknesses, and even personal values are.
    Yeah, I tend to think that in situations where it's difficult/impossible for our ego functions to exist (read: be) and thrive, the superego is what keeps us alive/allows us to survive, but at a cost--an alternative preferable to "death" and its many forms, I suppose. Writing that just made me think of "the horde" from M. Night Shyamalan's Split/Glass and "the horde's" premise that "the broken" (read: the abused) are actually superior to "the untouched" because they have never suffered in their lives and therefore, are not "strong" enough to handle the world and its horrors; it's true that the horde has supernatural abilities (of the monstrous sort) that allow him to defy the realms of what's possible, but the cost is that he has a shattered psyche and vital pieces of his identity must be silenced in order for him to prevail. I like to think that natural selection has provided us with the tools to get by on this shit hole, and if we know anything about human nature, it's that its "solutions" ain't always pretty or elegant, but they get er done, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Can you imagine a Gamma saying Alpha shit is great and that Gamma sucks? That's what the superego can do, I think.
    Most definitely, the superego can breed a sort of self-loathing, or maybe Stockholm Syndrome is more apt, where one begins to fall in love with their captors as a survival strategy.

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