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Thread: Supervision with Child as Supervisor (IEE>ESI but could be any supervision relationship)

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    Default Supervision with Child as Supervisor (IEE>ESI but could be any supervision relationship)

    Sharing in case this helps anybody who is dealing with a child who seems to be their supervisor! Kind of long so don't bother reading unless it interests you, but that goes without saying.

    ---

    My little six year-old is probably Delta NF. I thought at first INFj but more and more he seems like an ENFp. Of course I am not going to pigeon-hole him and will wait and see, just observing for now.

    BUT:

    There are some supervision issues already starting.

    Basically what is happening is he bristles at my telling him what to do in a way that is very different from some other adults in his life (his father, grandparents), whether I try to be very nice and polite or even get more firm with him. No matter how I approach it, he doesn't like me to give him advice or tell him what to do. And he sometimes says pretty disrespectful things to me that he just never would say to his SLI dad, and when I ask him why he said such a mean thing, he just doesn't know. "It just came out," he'll tell me.

    Now, again, he's six! This is part of being six, too, I'm sure. I manage it fine and obviously love him completely either way and let him know that. He is very sweet, and we have lots of good times, too, but honestly it can be frustrating to get pushback on the simplest thing I say to him at times.

    Anyway, kind of a breakthrough: today I figured out that instead of authoritatively telling him everything, I would start asking him. Not asking whether it's okay to do things ("Do you want to get your shoes on now?" <-- not a good idea to ask kids if they want to do what they have to do haha), but instead I've been asking his advice. Amazingly, it seems to relax situations and he seems to feel more empowered. It's as if he thinks his mommy needs lots of help (hah!) and loves that I am asking him to advise. (I don't want to create a situation where he has to be in a weird parental role when he shouldn't be, but I think he is loving putting his input in, and being allowed to lead a little more.)

    For instance, today he skinned his knee. He started out by coming to show me his injury and get some sympathy. Normally I would comfort him and then tell him to go in the bathroom so we can clean it up and get a bandaid. Then he would get a little upset and act like he was filled with dread (LOL), whining for me not to put ointment on, etc.
    But I said, "Okay, honey, what should we do about this first?"
    And he very happily led me through washing his hands, cleaning his booboo, putting ointment on it, etc. Then I told him he did a great job.

    I mean, yeah, it's possible any kid benefits from being allowed a little independence, but in this case knowing our special dynamic it's kind of a revelation for me. Instead of trying to force him to get out the door to go to school in the morning, he is leading the way. I guess I'm just letting him supervise a little more instead of fighting the dynamic.

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    Type of a six-year old is very unstable making prediction impossible. However, your strategy will also work on adults of all types.........

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsTortilla View Post
    Sharing in case this helps anybody who is dealing with a child who seems to be their supervisor! Kind of long so don't bother reading unless it interests you, but that goes without saying.

    ---

    My little six year-old is probably Delta NF. I thought at first INFj but more and more he seems like an ENFp. Of course I am not going to pigeon-hole him and will wait and see, just observing for now.

    BUT:

    There are some supervision issues already starting.

    Basically what is happening is he bristles at my telling him what to do in a way that is very different from some other adults in his life (his father, grandparents), whether I try to be very nice and polite or even get more firm with him. No matter how I approach it, he doesn't like me to give him advice or tell him what to do. And he sometimes says pretty disrespectful things to me that he just never would say to his SLI dad, and when I ask him why he said such a mean thing, he just doesn't know. "It just came out," he'll tell me.

    Now, again, he's six! This is part of being six, too, I'm sure. I manage it fine and obviously love him completely either way and let him know that. He is very sweet, and we have lots of good times, too, but honestly it can be frustrating to get pushback on the simplest thing I say to him at times.

    Anyway, kind of a breakthrough: today I figured out that instead of authoritatively telling him everything, I would start asking him. Not asking whether it's okay to do things ("Do you want to get your shoes on now?" <-- not a good idea to ask kids if they want to do what they have to do haha), but instead I've been asking his advice. Amazingly, it seems to relax situations and he seems to feel more empowered. It's as if he thinks his mommy needs lots of help (hah!) and loves that I am asking him to advise. (I don't want to create a situation where he has to be in a weird parental role when he shouldn't be, but I think he is loving putting his input in, and being allowed to lead a little more.)

    For instance, today he skinned his knee. He started out by coming to show me his injury and get some sympathy. Normally I would comfort him and then tell him to go in the bathroom so we can clean it up and get a bandaid. Then he would get a little upset and act like he was filled with dread (LOL), whining for me not to put ointment on, etc.
    But I said, "Okay, honey, what should we do about this first?"
    And he very happily led me through washing his hands, cleaning his booboo, putting ointment on it, etc. Then I told him he did a great job.

    I mean, yeah, it's possible any kid benefits from being allowed a little independence, but in this case knowing our special dynamic it's kind of a revelation for me. Instead of trying to force him to get out the door to go to school in the morning, he is leading the way. I guess I'm just letting him supervise a little more instead of fighting the dynamic.
    Yes that was very helpful in recognizing relations and many ways in which one can approach them. Thanks for sharing Mrs Tortilla.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Im my parent's supervisor and this dynamic resulted in physical abuse when I was younger. Unfortunately said parent was an estj and they don't exude any warmth to counteract the physical outbursts. Very traumatizing. Please be careful with him. Thank you for trying to adapt to him instead of forcing him to adapt to you, this will be a difficult relationship throughout if you left it run its regular course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    Im my parent's supervisor and this dynamic resulted in physical abuse when I was younger. Unfortunately said parent was an estj and they don't exude any warmth to counteract the physical outbursts. Very traumatizing. Please be careful with him. Thank you for trying to adapt to him instead of forcing him to adapt to you, this will be a difficult relationship throughout if you left it run its regular course.
    Thank you for sharing. I grew up in a very religious home where violence was enforced based on biblical doctrine. I can relate to what you went through even though I didn’t endure quite the same kinds of supervision battles. I’ll really keep in mind what you’ve said.

    What I said in my original post is about my attempt to avoid disfunction, at least where I can. I tend to bottle things up and then occasionally explode emotionally or angrily (but not physically harming people) and I have spent years feeling like a terrible person because of this personal weakness (as a kid and adult). I try very hard to be a good parent but I do make plenty of mistakes. As my little boy has grown, I see places where there’s unnecessary tension or frustration mounting, and what I see as supervision isn’t a wonderful feeling coming from my son, but I’m really determined to try to adjust to it instead of fighting him over everything. I’m glad I know a little bit about this Intertype Relation so I can try my best to make sure I am not too hard on him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    Im my parent's supervisor and this dynamic resulted in physical abuse when I was younger. Unfortunately said parent was an estj and they don't exude any warmth to counteract the physical outbursts. Very traumatizing. Please be careful with him. Thank you for trying to adapt to him instead of forcing him to adapt to you, this will be a difficult relationship throughout if you left it run its regular course.
    I'm sorry this happened to you. Did your mother intervene at all?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    I'm sorry this happened to you. Did your mother intervene at all?
    No. They were mirror partners, istp/estj. Both have low Feeling functions. There was never any warmth in the house. Order, but not warmth

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    No. They were mirror partners, istp/estj. Both have low Feeling functions. There was never any warmth in the house. Order, but not warmth
    We’ll warm you up here
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsTortilla View Post
    Sharing in case this helps anybody who is dealing with a child who seems to be their supervisor! Kind of long so don't bother reading unless it interests you, but that goes without saying.

    ---

    My little six year-old is probably Delta NF. I thought at first INFj but more and more he seems like an ENFp. Of course I am not going to pigeon-hole him and will wait and see, just observing for now.

    BUT:

    There are some supervision issues already starting.

    Basically what is happening is he bristles at my telling him what to do in a way that is very different from some other adults in his life (his father, grandparents), whether I try to be very nice and polite or even get more firm with him. No matter how I approach it, he doesn't like me to give him advice or tell him what to do. And he sometimes says pretty disrespectful things to me that he just never would say to his SLI dad, and when I ask him why he said such a mean thing, he just doesn't know. "It just came out," he'll tell me.

    Now, again, he's six! This is part of being six, too, I'm sure. I manage it fine and obviously love him completely either way and let him know that. He is very sweet, and we have lots of good times, too, but honestly it can be frustrating to get pushback on the simplest thing I say to him at times.

    Anyway, kind of a breakthrough: today I figured out that instead of authoritatively telling him everything, I would start asking him. Not asking whether it's okay to do things ("Do you want to get your shoes on now?" <-- not a good idea to ask kids if they want to do what they have to do haha), but instead I've been asking his advice. Amazingly, it seems to relax situations and he seems to feel more empowered. It's as if he thinks his mommy needs lots of help (hah!) and loves that I am asking him to advise. (I don't want to create a situation where he has to be in a weird parental role when he shouldn't be, but I think he is loving putting his input in, and being allowed to lead a little more.)

    For instance, today he skinned his knee. He started out by coming to show me his injury and get some sympathy. Normally I would comfort him and then tell him to go in the bathroom so we can clean it up and get a bandaid. Then he would get a little upset and act like he was filled with dread (LOL), whining for me not to put ointment on, etc.
    But I said, "Okay, honey, what should we do about this first?"
    And he very happily led me through washing his hands, cleaning his booboo, putting ointment on it, etc. Then I told him he did a great job.

    I mean, yeah, it's possible any kid benefits from being allowed a little independence, but in this case knowing our special dynamic it's kind of a revelation for me. Instead of trying to force him to get out the door to go to school in the morning, he is leading the way. I guess I'm just letting him supervise a little more instead of fighting the dynamic.
    I know an (grown up) IEE whose mother is an ESI and he acts like you describe, the difference is, he does it with almost everyone with whom he has a mildly close relationship (friends, family, partners etc) despite their type...imagine that. I think he learned to be this way because of having by mother his supervisee. Then I also know an IEI who's pretty much the same way and who also has her supervisee mother. The weird thing is that I see these supervisee mothers acting in pretty similar way as you also described with those supervisor kids...like they just say: ok, kid, that's fine. You are right as always. And then they just continue on whatever they were doing without taking much more care of the issue (like hey, they don't notice they are accepting a really not nice behavior from their kids?).

    I've always thought that me on their places would be a bitch until those kids start behaving in more respectful and proper way.
    So, I'd suggest not letting your kid walk all over you. If you don't do this for yourself, at least think in the future of your kid. Its not easy for this IEE I talk about to really accept responsibilities or faults, or have deep relationships with ppl since he's always having this superiority "complex" due his primary relationship with her mom ( and the IEI its an even worst case). Behave towards your kid in a normal parenting style and if possible, I'd suggest taking this issue with an psychologist specialized in kids and education so they could give you some advice in how to handle or getting a proper relationship with your kid (even when they don't know socionics, I think they can give you some light in how should be the relationship kid-parents to be more positive in the future).

    I should add that both of these two individuals have a good relationship with their moms, but they actually have this awful smartass arrogant attitude with almost and literally everyone (with whom the have some degree of trust or personal relations) so this probably makes their life harder and more complicated in their family/intimate relations that it should be from having a different infancy scenario.

    Edit. Also thanks for sharing this, I just noticed this pattern actually being this way, it was very insightful to me too.
    Last edited by Blackberry; 04-20-2019 at 02:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry View Post
    I know an (grown up) IEE whose mother is an ESI and he acts like you describe, the difference is, he does it with almost everyone with whom he has a mildly close relationship (friends, family, partners etc) despite their type...imagine that. I think he learned to be this way because of having by mother his supervisee. Then I also know an IEI who's pretty much the same way and who also has her supervisee mother. The weird thing is that I see these supervisee mothers acting in pretty similar way as you also described with those supervisor kids...like they just say: ok, kid, that's fine. You are right as always. And then they just continue on whatever they were doing without taking much more care of the issue (like hey, they don't notice they are accepting a really not nice behavior from their kids?).

    I've always thought that me on their places would be a bitch until those kids start behaving in more respectful and proper way.
    So, I'd suggest not letting your kid walk all over you. If you don't do this for yourself, at least think in the future of your kid. Its not easy for this IEE I talk about to really accept responsibilities or faults, or have deep relationships with ppl since he's always having this superiority "complex" due his primary relationship with her mom ( and the IEI its an even worst case). Behave towards your kid in a normal parenting style and if possible, I'd suggest taking this issue with an psychologist specialized in kids and education so they could give you some advice in how to handle or getting a proper relationship with your kid (even when they don't know socionics, I think they can give you some light in how should be the relationship kid-parents to be more positive in the future).

    I should add that both of these two individuals have a good relationship with their moms, but they actually have this awful smartass arrogant attitude with almost and literally everyone (with whom the have some degree of trust or personal relations) so this probably makes their life harder and more complicated in their family/intimate relations that it should be from having a different infancy scenario.

    Edit. Also thanks for sharing this, I just noticed this pattern actually being this way, it was very insightful to me too.
    Thanks for the thoughts on this. I can see why this kind of relationship is really tough in any circumstance. You can let the supervision get you so frustrated you become enraged and ultra strict or you can give in because it’s just easier. To your point, I’m already noticing flippant tendencies from my son; difficulty at kindergarten where he sometimes might just not take his teacher’s direction seriously and do what he wants instead.

    At home I do generally try to be firm about boundaries and give both praise and consequences where appropriate and my SLI husband actually thinks I’m overly strict at times. He has such an easy relationship with our son and so I think he sees me as uptight and too rigid about certain things. To create consistency and do the kind of parenting that seems to come naturally to me, I have to fight against my husband in some respects. I try hard to get him to agree to uphold rules we set for our kids on a regular basis but he doesn’t always see the need. Can be really really frustrating!

    A thought I had: maybe people with supervisee parents just act the way you’ve observed because they intrinsically don’t fully respect their primary caregiver, no matter what that caregiver tries to do in terms of a normal healthy parenting style. I’ll still try to be firm about the important things while giving him some freedom to supervise and be himself where I can. Just wondering whether it matters! Interesting and strange situation...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsTortilla View Post
    Thanks for the thoughts on this. I can see why this kind of relationship is really tough in any circumstance. You can let the supervision get you so frustrated you become enraged and ultra strict or you can give in because it’s just easier. To your point, I’m already noticing flippant tendencies from my son; difficulty at kindergarten where he sometimes might just not take his teacher’s direction seriously and do what he wants instead.

    At home I do generally try to be firm about boundaries and give both praise and consequences where appropriate and my SLI husband actually thinks I’m overly strict at times. He has such an easy relationship with our son and so I think he sees me as uptight and too rigid about certain things. To create consistency and do the kind of parenting that seems to come naturally to me, I have to fight against my husband in some respects. I try hard to get him to agree to uphold rules we set for our kids on a regular basis but he doesn’t always see the need. Can be really really frustrating!

    A thought I had: maybe people with supervisee parents just act the way you’ve observed because they intrinsically don’t fully respect their primary caregiver, no matter what that caregiver tries to do in terms of a normal healthy parenting style. I’ll still try to be firm about the important things while giving him some freedom to supervise and be himself where I can. Just wondering whether it matters! Interesting and strange situation...
    Ikr, despite the types, for kids is usually more easy to take seriously males than females, because of this they don't understand the struggles females have with kids (especially males). Males just say something and small kids usually obeys them, but females often have to gain these obedience from them. This is easily observed with teachers at schools for example.
    Also, often is hard for guys to understand the importance of stuff like socionics and its kinda frustrating.
    Anyway, probably you are right, I honestly don't know if there's something that could be done to improve the relationship between parents and kids in supervision ring to get them grow up more balanced. Anyways, do you have some experience or have you ever noticed something about the opposite case, supervisor parents with supervisee kids? I'm kinda curious.

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    I grew up in pretty much the same environment, although inverted, me EII-Ne, dad ILE (my supervisee), mum SLI-Te (activity/dual). I can relate to what you describe about your son, it's also true what blackberry says... that perhaps gender roles influence us in very subtle/societal ways, and I think it's even due to the nature of Ne, which me and my dad share... that we've always maintained a good relationship, but it wasn't like this when I was younger. And as Blackberry says, perhaps the way I perceive men in general is highly influenced by the dynamics I had with my dad, in fact I like girls better, I think they're better, I'm distrustful and perceive men as inferior to me in some subtle ways... yea, very true. I love and have loved my dad so much, that's not in question, but we've always been in this weird dynamics where he would look up to me as a sort of gifted child that had to be seconded in my every tantrum, while that actually made me grow in my worst Ne tendencies... I had a better time with my mum in fact, although she was harsher and used to bitch with me when I was doing what she didn't like, and I respected that. And now that my mum is not here anymore, I have to make sure that my dad doesn't make weird shit (which he tends to do a lot, especially managing our heredity) so our roles are really a bit supervisory-like at times, but we use to laugh it off, and we're in synch with our Ne in front line.

    Don't be afraid to be a parent, more than a friend, that's what kids need, and one day they will hopefully be thankful for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry View Post
    Ikr, despite the types, for kids is usually more easy to take seriously males than females, because of this they don't understand the struggles females have with kids (especially males). Males just say something and small kids usually obeys them, but females often have to gain these obedience from them. This is easily observed with teachers at schools for example.
    Also, often is hard for guys to understand the importance of stuff like socionics and its kinda frustrating.
    Anyway, probably you are right, I honestly don't know if there's something that could be done to improve the relationship between parents and kids in supervision ring to get them grow up more balanced. Anyways, do you have some experience or have you ever noticed something about the opposite case, supervisor parents with supervisee kids? I'm kinda curious.
    I have to agree with you that I've noticed it's easier for kids to take what males/fathers say more seriously at a young age. I have to ask my son to do something several times (usually) and my husband usually only has to ask once or twice (rarely twice). It was the same for me growing up but my dad was my dual so I was usually happy to do anything he said.

    As far as having experience in the opposite... actually just a little. My mother-in-law is ESE and my husband is SLI. So she supervises him obviously. From what I know he had a pretty nice childhood and she's pretty bossy anyway... but he describes spending most of his fun growing up times with an ENFp best friend (girl) and his dad (possibly ISFp). He used to get into fights with his mom over cleaning his room and stuff but he's not one to talk a lot about his feelings.

    What I see now with them is probably more relevant. He basically avoids his mom and finds her extremely overbearing. When she presses him I see his Se ignoring function come out (I've heard him yell quite harshly at her suddenly out of nowhere just because he can't handle her pestering him anymore). He basically lets me get her birthday presents and cards, and doesn't talk to her all that much unless he has to. He loves her, I know, but the supervision element is heavy and he likes to be autonomous and have maximum freedom which doesn't jive with spending much time with her. Usually he'll see her in a group where she'll talk to other people who are more chatty and then he doesn't have to interact with her too much. On the other hand, if anyone criticizes her he is the first to defend her and he thinks she's an amazing lady in general. He just tries to steer clear of her control.

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