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Thread: LSI - Building Logical Frameworks With Ti - Introverted Thinking

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    Default LSI - Building Logical Frameworks With Ti - Introverted Thinking

    How do LSIs use Ti? How do you build your Ti frameworks? What is the process, where do you find the pieces to the things you put together? How do you define things, how do you fill your categories and put the pieces together to build the logical understands you have? what is the LSI's Ti thought process If you don't mind please go into detail about this and give some examples, thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VorticalFlow View Post
    How do LSIs use Ti? How do you build your Ti frameworks? What is the process, where do you find the pieces to the things you put together? How do you define things, how do you fill your categories and put the pieces together to build the logical understands you have? what is the LSI's Ti thought process If you don't mind please go into detail about this and give some examples, thank you.

    1. New subject at uni. First thing: what are rules, how to pass, when are all deadlines. How much work there to be done. I do not care about details, must know, right know, how to plan it during a semester. A structure of plan is created, based on that official infomations, when which part must be completed. Then I can start read about details and do things. When some new informations are given, plan may rapidly change, it is like I would have an excel table in my mind with my structure of problem. Something changes, it gets implemented and I change my plans to keep them optimally efficient. But it was crucial to have all connections checked before, to have that structure in the first place. I can not work step by step without knowing the goal.


    2.Since I know about socionics, I'll keep typing my friends and acquaintances. Let's say, I think someone is EIE. I will extensively observe him and compare his behaviour to descriptions. When something doesn't fit, it is disstressing, I start doubt my judgment or socionics. I may test that person to see what he will do. For EIE is proposing something grey I suppose. If does not flare with anger, I was rather wrong. I must type him better. I must know. HE MUST MAKE SENSE. I will not rest before I have a theory that makes sens.
    Actually I always used to test people. Like, my biggest lie is "you may be honest with me". But will I still trust them after that truth? I'll gather little pieces of infromations to create a picture of a whole person to know, what to expect (probably not much good). I always have sort of model of people around me, what they are at their core, basing on things say/way they said/what thei did and then I may predict their actions in future. I was always the one send to teachers to negotiate things. I can not influence them emotionaly but I could see where thing are going during conversations basing on their previous words and actions. Always knew how much I can accomplish with them at the current moment.

    3. I can have plans for even week or two, what I will eat, 5 meals a day. Well, for a couple of days at least. It is constructed to optimalize going for shopping, food waste and a possibility to take meals with myself to work/school. Because there is a plan of going out. And other plans must fit that plan. My ex used to say I have plans within plans and sometimes even plans about plans, like I can plan that I will be able to plan X after Y happens because now I do not posses all the informations that are necessary to make that plan. I can even have more than one version of The Plan, but I really do not like that. I prefer plans with points on road that are certain. I always start with what is certain. Variables must fit to framework of certainty.

    4. I have a strange way of shopping. Hm, coats. There is always one winter coat, one autumn, one for rain, one leather. There is no way I could go for second winter coat having one, though I could easliy afford. It would make problems which to wear. I do not like... plurality. There must be an exact number of things with an exact destiny of use. I'm super annoyed when my SLI mother buys me something because it was "nice and new and may be useful maybe". It doesn't fit feng shui of my household for god sake. I do not want that useless thing. I didn't plan having that, take it away. It may even be an inspiration to take a bin and throw away all useless things that somehow survived in a drowers. There is no place for them in my perfect structure of material possesions. I hate when series of books I have do not consist of one edition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VorticalFlow View Post
    How do LSIs use Ti? How do you build your Ti frameworks? What is the process, where do you find the pieces to the things you put together? How do you define things, how do you fill your categories and put the pieces together to build the logical understands you have? what is the LSI's Ti thought process If you don't mind please go into detail about this and give some examples, thank you.
    You know I would barely want to call all this "Ti", lol.

    Anyway just about the brand of objective logic I got in general, deductive logic is a big part of it. Let that run on the system to calculate things in a nice consistent way. The foundation to this is just collecting the details and defining what they are, without building on all that you don't have a system to deduce things with.

    For me personally spatial logic also plays a big role beyond the above foundation, whenever I can translate things into "visual" logic like that. I imagine without feeling all the spatial logic it would be hard to have the deductive logic be grounded enough to work with it in a fast and automatic enough way with enough working memory for it

    Otherwise just in general, it's all about things, objects, inanimate things you know, I won't purely call it a blueprint of them, because that's somehow a bit too abstract, it's more like a blueprint of a systematically worded instruction manual of all the things/objects

    And where you would see it as relevant to intrapersonal and interpersonal dynamics is how this type of logic is the best at killing emotion in oneself - yeah try to count from 0 to 100 when upset... this stuff is pretty much what all the above is all the time - at the same time it really makes space for the experiencing of emotions of other people instead, though still in a controlled and detached-ish way and most of the time the filter on it is pretty strong

    But again, I don't have a need to put any of that in the Socionics framework, I found other ones instead. Socionics is interesting with pointing out some info processing schemes but I found them elsewhere in better forms too
    Last edited by Myst; 08-29-2019 at 10:20 PM.

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    I'll use this post for examples


    Quote Originally Posted by Ilamatecuhtli View Post
    1. New subject at uni. First thing: what are rules, how to pass, when are all deadlines. How much work there to be done. I do not care about details, must know, right know, how to plan it during a semester. A structure of plan is created, based on that official infomations, when which part must be completed. Then I can start read about details and do things. When some new informations are given, plan may rapidly change, it is like I would have an excel table in my mind with my structure of problem. Something changes, it gets implemented and I change my plans to keep them optimally efficient. But it was crucial to have all connections checked before, to have that structure in the first place. I can not work step by step without knowing the goal.
    Umm, I start from details tbh. This thing just works for me like reading an instruction manual with details of the system yeah. My plan isn't all that detailed though beyond that. I have some very specific points where I am sure of what I will do to avoid having to make complex contingency plans or worry about any of that lol. I don't really like to change my plan rapidly if it's truly put in place, these points in it, no, I try to avoid having to change all of it, or I wouldn't have bothered to put those specific points into the plan.

    Beyond those I'm not detailed at all, I'll do the details when the task is in front of me, also details are needed to know what the stuff is all about i.e. in the example, how the teacher's expectations and rules are. If you didn't mean the details on those, and you just meant the details that are needed for the task in front of you, yeah I do wait with those details until later too, so maybe we are similar otherwise after all, but idk what is meant by connections here, I don't really like to try and conjure up connections before details. In fact I can't do that at all, dislike speculation.

    And, yah, going back to the example, I figure what I need to be doing, I'll do it, no further thought given to it. A subject at uni when I went to uni back then, it's not a big enough topic to me to really scrutinise it so closely beyond that. If the plan changed bc the teacher decided on something else I'd be a bit irritated then go with whatever new expectations (assuming it didn't create further problems, esp unfairness towards me)


    2.Since I know about socionics, I'll keep typing my friends and acquaintances. Let's say, I think someone is EIE. I will extensively observe him and compare his behaviour to descriptions. When something doesn't fit, it is disstressing, I start doubt my judgment or socionics. I may test that person to see what he will do. For EIE is proposing something grey I suppose. If does not flare with anger, I was rather wrong. I must type him better. I must know. HE MUST MAKE SENSE. I will not rest before I have a theory that makes sens.
    I never doubt my judgment itself lol maybe that sounds arrogant lol... I'm just forgiving with myself and others (according to my standards) though. And what I'm willing to doubt is the data I got, I can try and get more data if I realise it's needed. I can sometimes doubt the established facts if they don't add up, but I prefer to establish the facts in a way that I won't have to doubt them later.

    With Socionics, I did doubt it, heh, well, yeah, I systematically worked through its model to see where it checks out in real life or against other parts of the model. ... Well it didn't hold up all that well eventually, the parts that did, I kept and put them in a different system eventually and I had to rework even those parts eventually. The EIE example you gave would easily fail yeah

    Like... say for an example, when you explain stuff with dimensionality of functions. The idea has valid parts such as yeah, when learning some skills, for some people the learned skill doesn't transfer well to other areas. Now this can have several reasons for it. Socionics says it's when you have to use a low dimensionality function to process. And yeah that part is valid in that it's true that your brain has weaker parts in its neural organisation, bottlenecks, whatnot, e.g. a smaller corpus callosum for the typical male. The problem with Socionics is that it assumes there is a specific function like "Ti" that has low dimensionality while in reality it can be brain structures that barely correspond with that idea of "Ti" "IE" as Socionics sources try to define it. It DOES have a loose relation with the "Ti" definitions but the relation is too loose to use it as a neat causal explanation. Deductive logic cannot be run on that kind of loose connection. So, the problem with Socionics in the original example here is that there can be several reasons for the learned skill failing to transfer, several ways the brain structure and/or other things matter.

    Anyway going back to your example - after mine I just fleshed out - yeah I had lots of irritation when Socionics didn't want to check out with enough consistency sure lol. And I relate that I also don't rest until the stuff makes sense but I just kind of am gradual, I work on it every day, bit by bit pretty often, I'll get there eventually. Testing the person, that never entered my mind, that to me would've introduced too much ambiguity. Not that Socionics isn't full of it by default you can force it to be operationalised i.e. formulate its ideas clearly unambiguously but then ofc it won't check out well.

    And the EIE example, why the "EIE" would not get angry... say she/he decided it's not appropriate in that situation or that that emotional display won't help them achieve whatever goal they have in mind, whatever etc etc. Socioncis cannot predict things on this granular level

    Also. When you try to check whether someone who's supposed to be someone who should be very good for you, will get openly angry if they are told something gray... Stop right there. Do you really need the person to get openly angry or did just some stupid Socionics idea dictate this? Best to tune into the former, instead of following Socionics.... use common sense to tune into it.


    Actually I always used to test people. Like, my biggest lie is "you may be honest with me". But will I still trust them after that truth? I'll gather little pieces of infromations to create a picture of a whole person to know, what to expect (probably not much good). I always have sort of model of people around me, what they are at their core, basing on things say/way they said/what thei did and then I may predict their actions in future. I was always the one send to teachers to negotiate things. I can not influence them emotionaly but I could see where thing are going during conversations basing on their previous words and actions. Always knew how much I can accomplish with them at the current moment.
    I don't relate to the testing or the extreme pessimism, however I relate to the rest, I can be cynical like that, and know what to expect from someone after I built the picture of the specific bits about them. I'm not sure about "what they are at their core".... depends on what you meant. If you mean categorising the people in refined enough ways, maybe I relate. If you mean some vague essence, nah. I don't do that.

    I have considered before whether I want people to be fully honest with me, or in general do I want ALL information about them. I was like yeah I do because then I know how to protect myself from shit. If someone turns out to be not trustable enough. Later I reconsidered whether I'd want to know all small details that would be emotionally upsetting unnecessarily if they are otherwise of no consequence to things (trust will stay, because it's not that kind of issue). Idk atm. This is a new consideration/re-consideration. It ties into the question of how much shit I'm willing to accept about people - and yeah people do have a lot of shit going on about them in general lol


    3. I can have plans for even week or two, what I will eat, 5 meals a day. Well, for a couple of days at least. It is constructed to optimalize going for shopping, food waste and a possibility to take meals with myself to work/school. Because there is a plan of going out. And other plans must fit that plan. My ex used to say I have plans within plans and sometimes even plans about plans, like I can plan that I will be able to plan X after Y happens because now I do not posses all the informations that are necessary to make that plan. I can even have more than one version of The Plan, but I really do not like that. I prefer plans with points on road that are certain. I always start with what is certain. Variables must fit to framework of certainty.
    I optimise too the steps and order of things to be done, and I do have those set points in my plan where I know I have to wait after I got Y done/Y happened, to make another decision for X, but I don't know if I have plans about plans, this was very meta . And yeah I don't want to have more than one version of the plan (what you call The Plan I guess). I do prefer those certain points, I see now you described that too like I did above. Yeah, framework of certainty for the variables I like that wording lol


    4. I have a strange way of shopping. Hm, coats. There is always one winter coat, one autumn, one for rain, one leather. There is no way I could go for second winter coat having one, though I could easliy afford. It would make problems which to wear. I do not like... plurality. There must be an exact number of things with an exact destiny of use. I'm super annoyed when my SLI mother buys me something because it was "nice and new and may be useful maybe". It doesn't fit feng shui of my household for god sake. I do not want that useless thing. I didn't plan having that, take it away. It may even be an inspiration to take a bin and throw away all useless things that somehow survived in a drowers. There is no place for them in my perfect structure of material possesions. I hate when series of books I have do not consist of one edition.
    You'd fit Damasio's theory on emotion/rationality with your indecisiveness, I read this can be a problem for "very rational people" especially if having to choose between two good options. I sometimes actually try to go by emotional whims actually on that one, if it's some matter where I'm well familiar with it all. So that going with the emotional whim doesn't introduce any major undesired consequences. Small ones I don't always bother to consider. I also try to do as much elimination of options or variables logically as possible before having to decide.

    I do have more than one winter coat . So I look at the winter coats for the specific very cold winter day and I know this one will not fit, say, the shoes I already picked based on some other thing, and as for the other two winter coats I got for that kind of cold day, I don't feel like wearing one of them so the choice is the third winter coat, which I do feel like wearing enough, luckily. I guess I am pretty practiced with picking from a large selection of clothes lol. I do it pretty quickly and even enjoy deciding. Having to assign an exact destiny for each of them...... uh no. That'd be too nitpicky to me. Feng shui lool! I don't believe in that sort of stuff

    As for series of books vs them being from more than one edition eh as long as it doesnt look too bad, I'm ok. If it's a very important book series then I'd probably care enough about that sortof thing, otherwise no. I do have books ... and I order them by theme first, within themes there are subthemes, then I sort the remaining order as much as possible by their looks so they look good too on the shelves. Sometimes the aesthetics gets prioritised over perfect order, I really feel out fine balances for my preferences there
    Last edited by Myst; 08-29-2019 at 11:14 PM.

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    Ti signifies an open-loop data processing structure meaning that rationalization and input processes don't operate simultaneously; rationalization operates on data that has already been collected and data is collected only when Ti allows it. LSI and LII have identical overall structures; their differences are distinguished only by their data preferences - one becomes what one eats, so to speak, so processes become as varied as DNA. Ti-types often truncate data so that it fits into a logical A plus B equals C (square pegs for round holes) but this won't make logical frameworks; it only appears logical for the time being - enough to get something off one's plate. Ti-types are methodological (planned), which becomes necessary when output is "disconnected" from input; Te-output is interactive with input but the logic is essentially the same......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Ti signifies an open-loop data processing structure meaning that rationalization and input processes don't operate simultaneously; rationalization operates on data that has already been collected and data is collected only when Ti allows it. LSI and LII have identical overall structures; their differences are distinguished only by their data preferences - one becomes what one eats, so to speak, so processes become as varied as DNA. Ti-types often truncate data so that it fits into a logical A plus B equals C (square pegs for round holes) but this won't make logical frameworks; it only appears logical for the time being - enough to get something off one's plate. Ti-types are methodological (planned), which becomes necessary when output is "disconnected" from input; Te-output is interactive with input but the logic is essentially the same......
    That works for me (bolded). Whether we call it "Ti" or not, lol. Not that terribly heavily planned though and when not totally logically required then I'm only truly methodological either to avoid frustration (need predictability due to that) or out of habit if I've done something many times (it just gets optimised, not gonna experiment around with doing it differently every time)

    But I would say this is all made up from so many different skills and eventually different brain connections stuff that I don't see the point in sticking one broad category onto it all most of the time. It only makes sense to me in terms of understanding the relation to emotions, otherwise I find it pointless, and then even when it's about the relation to emotionality, it still doesn't give me much to use a broad category of "oh so unemotional and logical and planned blah blah blah".

    It does point to some tendencies yes and there is a bunch of causal relations it points to - and yes there is a pretty large brain network that it correlates well with though that would be more Thinking than just Ti - but it on its own isn't enough to elaborate on any of that. You can make a neat model out of it sure like you have, or like Socionists have, but that has the same issue for me. What really works for me is elaborating instead about the actual casual relations. And yes that means this uses a completely different framework than your model or Socionics's model even if it shares ideas with both.

    Getting off un-socionifying soapbox again
    Last edited by Myst; 08-30-2019 at 08:25 PM.

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    Ti shifts through info and finds the essence of things or the diamond core principle.

    Ex of its thought process: “What makes someone attractive?”

    -Looks wouldn’t be the best answer because there are examples of ugly people with mates
    -Confidence/Status would be a better answer because it is better supported through what we see in the real world

    This is also why it’s hard to win arguments with someone heavily Ti... They say stuff that’s hard to argue against and have already thought the counter arguments through a million times
    He always finds a way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilamatecuhtli View Post
    1. New subject at uni. First thing: what are rules, how to pass, when are all deadlines. How much work there to be done. I do not care about details, must know, right know, how to plan it during a semester. A structure of plan is created, based on that official infomations, when which part must be completed. Then I can start read about details and do things. When some new informations are given, plan may rapidly change, it is like I would have an excel table in my mind with my structure of problem. Something changes, it gets implemented and I change my plans to keep them optimally efficient. But it was crucial to have all connections checked before, to have that structure in the first place. I can not work step by step without knowing the goal.


    2.Since I know about socionics, I'll keep typing my friends and acquaintances. Let's say, I think someone is EIE. I will extensively observe him and compare his behaviour to descriptions. When something doesn't fit, it is disstressing, I start doubt my judgment or socionics. I may test that person to see what he will do. For EIE is proposing something grey I suppose. If does not flare with anger, I was rather wrong. I must type him better. I must know. HE MUST MAKE SENSE. I will not rest before I have a theory that makes sens.
    Actually I always used to test people. Like, my biggest lie is "you may be honest with me". But will I still trust them after that truth? I'll gather little pieces of infromations to create a picture of a whole person to know, what to expect (probably not much good). I always have sort of model of people around me, what they are at their core, basing on things say/way they said/what thei did and then I may predict their actions in future. I was always the one send to teachers to negotiate things. I can not influence them emotionaly but I could see where thing are going during conversations basing on their previous words and actions. Always knew how much I can accomplish with them at the current moment.

    3. I can have plans for even week or two, what I will eat, 5 meals a day. Well, for a couple of days at least. It is constructed to optimalize going for shopping, food waste and a possibility to take meals with myself to work/school. Because there is a plan of going out. And other plans must fit that plan. My ex used to say I have plans within plans and sometimes even plans about plans, like I can plan that I will be able to plan X after Y happens because now I do not posses all the informations that are necessary to make that plan. I can even have more than one version of The Plan, but I really do not like that. I prefer plans with points on road that are certain. I always start with what is certain. Variables must fit to framework of certainty.

    4. I have a strange way of shopping. Hm, coats. There is always one winter coat, one autumn, one for rain, one leather. There is no way I could go for second winter coat having one, though I could easliy afford. It would make problems which to wear. I do not like... plurality. There must be an exact number of things with an exact destiny of use. I'm super annoyed when my SLI mother buys me something because it was "nice and new and may be useful maybe". It doesn't fit feng shui of my household for god sake. I do not want that useless thing. I didn't plan having that, take it away. It may even be an inspiration to take a bin and throw away all useless things that somehow survived in a drowers. There is no place for them in my perfect structure of material possesions. I hate when series of books I have do not consist of one edition.
    (I think number 3 may be something else than Ti because I also have these types of plans)
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    It just seems more like automatic formal logic processing. The way LSI is easy to identify. It kind of lacks all the "disorganizational connective pieces". Ti is logic.

    What I'm getting is that they do not even need to sit down with it which might seem like carelessness. So what I'm getting at is when it develops into long time building because when they are young it looks like living in the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    (I think number 3 may be something else than Ti because I also have these types of plans)
    Including the certainty thing with certain points in the plan?


    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    It just seems more like automatic formal logic processing.
    I was describing that for myself above pretty much


    What I'm getting is that they do not even need to sit down with it which might seem like carelessness. So what I'm getting at is when it develops into long time building because when they are young it looks like living in the moment.

    Need for professionalism? Studying? Real life challenge?
    That kind of made sense too ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Ti shifts through info and finds the essence of things or the diamond core principle.

    Ex of its thought process: What makes someone attractive?

    -Looks wouldnt be the best answer because there are examples of ugly people with mates
    -Confidence/Status would be a better answer because it is better supported through what we see in the real world
    Bet there are examples against the latter too

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Ti shifts through info and finds the essence of things or the diamond core principle.

    Ex of its thought process: “What makes someone attractive?”

    -Looks wouldn’t be the best answer because there are examples of ugly people with mates
    -Confidence/Status would be a better answer because it is better supported through what we see in the real world

    This is also why it’s hard to win arguments with someone heavily Ti... They say stuff that’s hard to argue against and have already thought the counter arguments through a million times
    It is hard to argue with a Ti-ish person, except that it will start to look like they are willing to ignore a lot of information in order to be “right,” at which point, should it be arrived at, I actually think they are cute.
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    LSI: I dont have ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    It is hard to argue with a Ti-ish person, except that it will start to look like they are willing to ignore a lot of information in order to be “right,” at which point, should it be arrived at, I actually think they are cute.
    How do you deal with it? My friend does it way more than me, the ignoring of information i.e. he does become a total wall (I don't do it to that point). I don't deal with it very well lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    How do you deal with it? My friend does it way more than me, the ignoring of information i.e. he does become a total wall (I don't do it to that point). I don't deal with it very well lol
    I don’t give it that much conscious thought or effort. I will point out a big-picture pov with a laugh, or I will just let the Ti person monologue for a while until they reach a dead end, or I will find what is most fruitful in what they say and expand on that, or I will growl like an animal, or or or
    LSI: I still cant figure out Pinterest.

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    LSI: I dont have ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    I don’t give it that much conscious thought or effort. I will point out a big-picture pov with a laugh, or I will just let the Ti person monologue for a while until they reach a dead end, or I will find what is most fruitful in what they say and expand on that, or I will growl like an animal, or or or
    How does your husband react to the first option?

  16. #16
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Including the certainty thing with certain points in the plan?
    No, if I think about it, I can be okay with some uncertainty, but not that much. The general process is similar though.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    How does your husband react to the first option?
    That would be an option for when things are relaxed and lighthearted, so I don’t remember it being a problem.
    LSI: I still cant figure out Pinterest.

    Me: Its just, like, idea boards.

    LSI: I dont have ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Bet there are examples against the latter too
    nahhhhh im ALWAYS right

    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    It is hard to argue with a Ti-ish person, except that it will start to look like they are willing to ignore a lot of information in order to be “right,” at which point, should it be arrived at, I actually think they are cute.
    and I hate when EIE do the cute Fe baitin stuff lolz
    He always finds a way

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    nahhhhh im ALWAYS right
    Sorry, in your fantasies only : P

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