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Thread: EII and ILE Supervision relations

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    Default EII and ILE Supervision relations

    It is literally like having a child who says the most foul things to you and about you or others in public and you have to constantly discipline the child about what is right and wrong to say. And ILE's natural tendency is to push the boundaries to know where they are.

    It's about constant boundary pushing and enforcing, the entire time. Also built up resentment from all the foul things said.

    Can work together on with Ne though, really nicely there. But Fi and Ti clash so hard. And Fi PoLR is a bitch to deal with.

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    It's funny because I was thinking about Fi porl - Fi base relationships earlier today. It seems that there are a lot of them.

    Currently I live two girls: one ESE and one EII. The EII's boyfriend is ILE and he is often around.. Seeing them interact can be very awkward. She likes to tell us how bad of a companion the ILE is. Like how he never listens, how he doesn't commit, how she feels like he is not there with her when they are alone together. Sometimes she does it out of nowhere while we are eating and he is right there with us. He usually tries to change the subject as he is embarrassed.

    Unfortunately the walls of my room are very thin and I sometimes can hear them having sex in the shower in the morning. They seem to be having a lot of fun. It's a lot of laughing llooooooool. I guess it's not all bad then

    But generally speaking (and that's just my opinion) Fi porls are not so happy with Fi base partners. Or it's more like they don't realize that they could easily be happier.

    The good thing is that Fi doms are able to carry the relationship on their own, or at least most of it. They start the relationship, they make it official, they decide when things are great and they decide when things are bad. Thanks to this at least Fi porls get to experience an actual relationship with someone that genuinely care for them and that is not scared to express it. Its often not as easy with their duals especially in the first stages of the relationship.

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    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    OK
    #1 Personal distance that is incommunicable does not register.
    #2. Not willing to to accept lack of hazy precision.
    One sees it as a necessary step towards impersonal understanding the other one sees it as breaking personal understanding.
    #3. Does not see value in advice. Making money for ILE is absolutely secondary priority - time as resource and money is not sacred. Bridging the gap interpersonally tends to happen via lively banter not via advice.
    #4. Does not really value understanding of their personal point in things – so the support is seen as intrusive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
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    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    @YXPR

    Unfortunately the walls of my room are very thin and I sometimes can hear them having sex in the shower in the morning. They seem to be having a lot of fun. It's a lot of laughing llooooooool. I guess it's not all bad then
    Oh god! Feels bad for you.
    That's the problem though, all this fun and banter, which is really fun, makes it seem like this is working, makes it seem like everything is fine. Which it's not horrible but man it's rough when it is rough. No pun intended. Look what I'm doing here, I am complaining about my ILE friend in public, sort of like your friend.

    @Troll Nr 007 idk what any of that means really. I do know Ti gets off saying really nasty things sometimes and Fi-dom just can't deal...and Fi PoLR doesn't understand asking"Why are you so squishy?" And Fi-dom doesn't see their squishyness as squishy but as normal and has to explain that over and over again to Fi-PoLR.

    Honestly I think EII supervises ILE through silence. ILE Ne needs to be having an affect on people, needs to be causing reactions out of them, good or bad doesn't matter, it loves shock value. If EII doesn't like ILE behavior and EII recognizes that they like reactions they withdraw their reactions from ILE and become silent, and then ILE is left to ponder the worst in silence, which they usually think the EII absolutely hates them, it's not that severe but this works in favor of the EII. That is the only way I have been able to regulate my ILE friends behavior. 3 different ILE that I know that has worked on.

    I agree about bridging the gap through banter, yes that works real well.

    This relation from my experience isn't, OMG EVERYDAY SUX I HATE THIS PERSON. Or I wouldn't be friends with ILE.

    It's more like, we have alot of fun, but there are so many tiny moments of frustration and hurt that it builds up and creates a history of pain that you think can't really be changed. It's not death by being crushed, but death by 1000 papercuts.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    I just want to say that supervision is not an attitude of the supervisor per se. It simply happens because of the unfavourable functional matches. The supervisee can feel it even when the supervisor is totally cool and not in any way consciously "supervising". This is also why it is so devilish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    @YXPR



    Oh god! Feels bad for you.
    That's the problem though, all this fun and banter, which is really fun, makes it seem like this is working, makes it seem like everything is fine. Which it's not horrible but man it's rough when it is rough. No pun intended. Look what I'm doing here, I am complaining about my ILE friend in public, sort of like your friend.

    @Troll Nr 007 idk what any of that means really. I do know Ti gets off saying really nasty things sometimes and Fi-dom just can't deal...and Fi PoLR doesn't understand asking"Why are you so squishy?" And Fi-dom doesn't see their squishyness as squishy but as normal and has to explain that over and over again to Fi-PoLR.

    Honestly I think EII supervises ILE through silence. ILE Ne needs to be having an affect on people, needs to be causing reactions out of them, good or bad doesn't matter, it loves shock value. If EII doesn't like ILE behavior and EII recognizes that they like reactions they withdraw their reactions from ILE and become silent, and then ILE is left to ponder the worst in silence, which they usually think the EII absolutely hates them, it's not that severe but this works in favor of the EII. That is the only way I have been able to regulate my ILE friends behavior. 3 different ILE that I know that has worked on.

    I agree about bridging the gap through banter, yes that works real well.

    This relation from my experience isn't, OMG EVERYDAY SUX I HATE THIS PERSON. Or I wouldn't be friends with ILE.

    It's more like, we have alot of fun, but there are so many tiny moments of frustration and hurt that it builds up and creates a history of pain that you think can't really be changed. It's not death by being crushed, but death by 1000 papercuts.
    I think the silence thing depends on the EII. My EII roommate isn't really silent. Sometimes we can hear her reprimanding him over the phone. They are both young adults so that might play a role in the dynamics of their relationship as well.

    I like the way you describe your relationship with ILEs because it's kind of what I have experienced with LIEs. That's why now I make sure to stay away from them.

    But isn't it weird how supervision relationships are so frustrating but also so common? Maybe some people do find happiness and there is a way to make things work out.

    In your case what attracts you to ILEs in the first place?

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    Some EIIs won't let up on preaching to ILEs even when the ILEs seem to be far more successful by not having listened to the preachers. Some ILEs can also lay it on thick so as to appear even further outside the EIIs' moral conduct zones because usually, they easily perceive EII blindness toward their needs for complete freedom........

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Some EIIs won't let up on preaching to ILEs
    You're telling me, one day I'll learn.

    even when the ILEs seem to be far more successful by not having listened to the preachers.
    I admit that has happened.

    Some ILEs can also lay it on thick so as to appear even further outside the EIIs' moral conduct zones
    Which makes them look hypocritical.

    because usually, they easily perceive EII blindness toward their needs for complete freedom........
    I got no idea what you mean? Se PoLR? Perhaps I am just blind like you say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    I think the silence thing depends on the EII. My EII roommate isn't really silent. Sometimes we can hear her reprimanding him over the phone. They are both young adults so that might play a role in the dynamics of their relationship as well.

    I like the way you describe your relationship with ILEs because it's kind of what I have experienced with LIEs. That's why now I make sure to stay away from them.

    But isn't it weird how supervision relationships are so frustrating but also so common? Maybe some people do find happiness and there is a way to make things work out.
    Oh I have reprimanded, but it does not work, that's how I discovered the silence, by sheer exhaustion.

    Imagine a child hitting you, then you yell at them to stop, over and over again louder and louder, and it makes them more excited and hit you more, even if you hit them back. ILE.

    Imagine the same child hitting you, and then you don't speak to the child for the next hour, and the child is now scared and wonders what's wrong. ILE.

    That is a literal situation I have dealt with with ILE, except the child wasn't a child.

    Wait you experience what from LIEs? That they are frustrated with you, or you them?


    In your case what attracts you to ILEs in the first place?
    Everybody knows ILE can be fun and playful, Ne likes people that are fun and playful.

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    Hasn’t been my experience. ILE with Ne lead make general conclusions and I tell them that there are human examples that defy their categories-reminding them of the differences in humanity
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    yesterday I was telling to my ILE dad how I don't get transexuals, that it's just the apex of the modern gender bias + half an hour explanations and preachings, and he says "I don't see how that's a problem, if we all have a part of both genders inside of us, then take a curve of normality: most people feel as their biological gender the most ( a woman feels 60% as woman and 40% man), but a little part feels as the opposite gender the most (a woman feels 45% as woman and 55% man) "

    it made sense said like that, thanks supervisees.

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    "EII blindness toward their needs for complete freedom....."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    .........
    I got no idea what you mean? Se PoLR? Perhaps I am just blind like you say.
    Generally, ILEs seem to desire (need) complete freedom from constraints so that they can do what they do best - explore and experiment; I distinguish freedom from the need for autonomy, which is more of an LII (and perhaps EII) thing. I haven't met an ILE that was metaphorically blind. They can sometimes appear lazy especially when they don't make use of their insights, and sometimes are overly idealistic and naive - but never blind. EXIs tend to want to constrain behaviour (most have good intentions) but this is often contrary to Ep natures that would tend to be somewhat rebellious toward EXI morality.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 04-01-2019 at 10:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    "EII blindness toward their needs for complete freedom....."



    Generally, ILEs seem to desire (need) complete freedom from constraints so that they can do what they do best - explore and experiment; I distinguish freedom from the need for autonomy, which is more of an LII (and perhaps EII) thing. I haven't met an ILE that was metaphorically blind. They can sometimes appear lazy especially when they don't make use of their insights, and sometimes are overly idealistic and naive - but never blind. EXIs tend to want to constrain behaviour (most have good intentions) but this is often contrary to Ep natures that would tend to be somewhat rebellious toward EXI morality.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Ok yea.

    Sometimes their desire for freedom impedes on other's freedom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post

    Wait you experience what from LIEs? That they are frustrated with you, or you them?
    That I am frustrated with them and that they are disappointed by me.

    I feel like at first they try to befriend me because they think that I am fun and intriguing but that then they try to make me as dull as possible.

    They underestimate how different our respective value systems and priorities are. So even though they are trying to help me and even if their help is sometimes needed, it's very often unwanted and the delivery of their advice/remarks makes me feel stupid and insecure.

    And it's so hard to just look them in the eyes and tell them "Ok I hear you but I don't care". Because they seem to care so much and they me feel like I should care too. That's how they give love but at one point I realize that it's toxic for me so I just reject it. They want a relationship but the more they try to get it the less I want it.

    To me supervision is honestly the worst intertype and I gave up on trying to manage that kind of relationships. It's too many fishes in the sea for me to keep being drained by my supervisors or for them to waste their energy on me.

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    I think Ne couple with Ti is a function set that gets me the most riled up. It pushes me to the point where I have to use my PoLR to defend myself. ILE friend finds a point of pain in you and takes shots all day making fun of it all day, to the point where if you let yourself be treated like this continually you must lack self respect. EII tendency to hold in resentment does not go well with this, as EII laughs at painful joke after painful joke to try and get past the pain (but really just encourages ILE to keep going), then ILE crosses the line one final time and causes me to explode making Se threats to warn ILE to stop their behavior. Same thing I was pushed to do with an LII relative of mine. Constant prickly jokes thrown at pain points until a threat to punch the joker in the face is finally forced out of me. I have no idea why Ne-Ti loves to do this behavior so much, I feel like It's Fe seeking or activator motivated somehow. Maybe warning signs should be said up ahead to lessen the final explosion. Maybe not speaking up is also part of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    That I am frustrated with them and that they are disappointed by me.

    I feel like at first they try to befriend me because they think that I am fun and intriguing but that then they try to make me as dull as possible.

    They underestimate how different our respective value systems and priorities are. So even though they are trying to help me and even if their help is sometimes needed, it's very often unwanted and the delivery of their advice/remarks makes me feel stupid and insecure.

    And it's so hard to just look them in the eyes and tell them "Ok I hear you but I don't care". Because they seem to care so much and they me feel like I should care too. That's how they give love but at one point I realize that it's toxic for me so I just reject it. They want a relationship but the more they try to get it the less I want it.

    To me supervision is honestly the worst intertype and I gave up on trying to manage that kind of relationships. It's too many fishes in the sea for me to keep being drained by my supervisors or for them to waste their energy on me.
    You think it's worse than conflictor?

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    Supervisors are more likely to be somewhat destructive to their partners because they tend to poop in the other's pasture unlike conflicting relationships where there seems to be more equality and balance even though both do differ greatly in fundamental perspectives and priorities. Both relationships have partners that would normally be on different paths (unless one caves), and conflicting hasn't much more potential than the other but I've seen examples of both that have survived for decades........

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I think they see me overstressing myself over something that is just pleasurable past time for me(like thinking and doing math) and think I need to stop it and begin to plough a field or crash to a wall with motorcycle or something along those lines...
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I donít care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I think Ne couple with Ti is a function set that gets me the most riled up. It pushes me to the point where I have to use my PoLR to defend myself. ILE friend finds a point of pain in you and takes shots all day making fun of it all day, to the point where if you let yourself be treated like this continually you must lack self respect. EII tendency to hold in resentment does not go well with this, as EII laughs at painful joke after painful joke to try and get past the pain (but really just encourages ILE to keep going), then ILE crosses the line one final time and causes me to explode making Se threats to warn ILE to stop their behavior. Same thing I was pushed to do with an LII relative of mine. Constant prickly jokes thrown at pain points until a threat to punch the joker in the face is finally forced out of me. I have no idea why Ne-Ti loves to do this behavior so much, I feel like It's Fe seeking or activator motivated somehow. Maybe warning signs should be said up ahead to lessen the final explosion. Maybe not speaking up is also part of the problem.



    You think it's worse than conflictor?
    It would be interesting to hear the opinion of an alpha NT on what you are experiencing. It could definitely be linked to them being fe seeking/Ha.

    I once had an ILE look me straight in the eyes and tell me that she hates me. She apologized a few minutes later and told me that she didn't mean it, that she just wanted to see my reaction to know how much I liked her on my end because I wasn't expressing it much. It happened 3 years ago and I'm still not over it lol. But we are very good friends now so I guess it didn't really matter.

    I do think that supervision is worst than conflict because there is no reciprocity. From my experience with conflictors we either clearly dislike each other, or we kind of like each other from a far, or from a little closer but then we know that there needs to be boundaries. I even have a conflictor that I would consider a friend, even though our relationship gets awkward sometimes. Conflictors can actually support each other pretty well once they learn how to communicate.

    However I think there is no way around supervision. The supervisor is always going to be struck by the supervisee's polr. And there will always be a nasty power dynamic even if it stays unspoken.

    I'm not saying that conflict is a "good" intertype. It is just more manageable in my opinion. Other people with different standards of what a relationship should feel like might think otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    It would be interesting to hear the opinion of an alpha NT on what you are experiencing. It could definitely be linked to them being fe seeking/Ha.

    I once had an ILE look me straight in the eyes and tell me that she hates me. She apologized a few minutes later and told me that she didn't mean it, that she just wanted to see my reaction to know how much I liked her on my end because I wasn't expressing it much. It happened 3 years ago and I'm still not over it lol. But we are very good friends now so I guess it didn't really matter.

    I do think that supervision is worst than conflict because there is no reciprocity. From my experience with conflictors we either clearly dislike each other, or we kind of like each other from a far, or from a little closer but then we know that there needs to be boundaries. I even have a conflictor that I would consider a friend, even though our relationship gets awkward sometimes. Conflictors can actually support each other pretty well once they learn how to communicate.

    However I think there is no way around supervision. The supervisor is always going to be struck by the supervisee's polr. And there will always be a nasty power dynamic even if it stays unspoken.

    I'm not saying that conflict is a "good" intertype. It is just more manageable in my opinion. Other people with different standards of what a relationship should feel like might think otherwise.

    I am very glad you mentioned that because that's exactly what I think is going on, I just never get into the ILE mind enough to find that out.

    My opinion is that his opinion is "He's too serious and too sensitive and can't take a joke." Which makes sense in his case.

    Yea that was what I was thinking after I asked the question, conflictor is mutual so it's not as bad as the one sided. But, even though he can punch me in my PoLR his use of my role function is painful as well, but probably not as painful as a PoLR punch.

    I spoke to some other EIIs and they are telling me the 7w8 ILE is more trolly than the 5s or other Etypes. So Etype could also be an issue.

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    yesterday, ILE dad tells me about the last museum of history he visited, we start talking about Chomsky and languages, I say "yeah, language is the most advanced form of technology we have, isn't it?" he "no, that's feelings", me "we're so romantic eheheh", we laughed for 2 minutes... but great truth

    ILEs

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    I notice that in supervisor relations the supervisee suggestive function relies alot on the supervisors mobilizing functions and it can cause stress to be relied upon your 2d function.

    With an SEE friend of mind I relied on his Te quite a bit and I could hear frustration in his voice when I requested too much Te help, like he wanted me to figure it out on my owna nd leave him alone lol.

    With ILE friend I notice through out the day he asks me many questions about the details of a thing.

    "What song is this? Who sings it?"

    "What was the name of that place we went to? What day did we go there?"

    I find my self constantly saying "I don't know." because he is asking me such specific details about things I don't really pay attention to or that don't stick in my memory. I get a little frustrated with how specific the questions are and shocked that he even expects me to remember such details that I don't even pay attention to.

    I think I also understand the what Troll said about " Personal distance that is incommunicable does not register."

    Because my ILE friend doesn't really consider privacy as a thing lol. Many times he asks me questions I do not feel obligated to answer to satisfy his curiosity because they are private matters. Like if I am reading a book, he may ask what is it, and because it does not concern him I choose to dismiss his question. Or if I leave my apartment he may ask where I'm going, and I feel if he needed to know I would let him now. He might also ask what am I watching on youtube in the privacy of my own room and once again I feel no obligation to explain all personal hobbies to him. Also because they later become the source of ridicule when he wants to make a joke to friends. "Can you believe LP watches _____ on youtube, what a ____." ANd he wonders why I don't share info with him lol.

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    So I learned today that to get ILE to stop messing with you in a way that they understand and are comfortable with, it's done through Fe. If they can see the negative reactions from you it seems to register for them, althought they may find it amusing it is easier for them to understand and they are more comfortable with this method, like " They don't like me but at least I know where I stand." How it plays out with myself and ILE friend is me literally yelling at the ILE to EFF OFF! Although he may laugh and find it amusing he understands to leave me alone. Only issue is as an Fe ignoring type this behavior is unnatural for me, so it's a point of discomfort in the relation. It hsa taught me though that letting out the emotions actually is relieving.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 05-06-2019 at 08:49 PM.

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    telling someone to eff off is not Fe (look at Se) also, good job ^^

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    This relation is really weird I swear to god. Once again ILE only understands outward emotions, and has an easier time dealing with those than the internal invisble emotions. Having to tell someone to eff off so loudly and vibrantly feels almost like a violation of my own psyche as an Fe ignoring type. It's funny how ILE laughs in a comfortable way when told to eff off and how different that response is to their more fearful and concerned reaction to someone just out right ignoring them or giving them the silent treatment.

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    What the EFF. Fi is relationship of ethics (in Delta it is quite wired bonds in your confided territory) this socionics stuff is not some amped up MBTI. For instance it means not giving a crap about your status in your community or following community etc. Like not taking your advice because you are in the elder position or thinking that guidelines are stupid which starts ultimately undermine the person you are in contact with or becoming extremely uncertain about their own place and breaking the taboos .

    But they aren't so good at Fe either...


    Anyway, sounds like your Fe is wearing you down. Maybe super ego stuff.
    Last edited by Heretic 007; 07-20-2019 at 05:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I donít care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I just want to say that supervision is not an attitude of the supervisor per se. It simply happens because of the unfavourable functional matches. The supervisee can feel it even when the supervisor is totally cool and not in any way consciously "supervising". This is also why it is so devilish.
    Yeah. I wanted to emphasize that the EII ILE supervision relationship is not characterized by the EII constantly picking on the ILE and critiquing his behavior. The ILE requires emotional feedback by the use of Fe. The ILE will often try to acquire it by showing it himself to indicate that he wants some. The EII ignores Fe and withholds that kind of emotionality, which causes the ILE to feel ever more insecure as time goes on, because the EII does not give the ILE a cue that lets him know that he's being accepted. This lack of recognition can result in anger and frustration for the ILE, and it might cause the ILE to lash out at the EII.

    The EII might become upset at heedless frivolity and not being able to get a clear signal from the ILE. The ILE is not capable of emotional gravity, which is the necessary ingredient for cementing a relationship with EIIs. The ILE has a capricious, fun affect that suits his dual, the SEI. The EII will feel as if they are being toyed with or taken advantage of, because emotion is a game to some degree, for the ILE. The EII needs the rock solid affirmation that Te doms provide, which involves a certain amount of seriousness or lack of emotional expression, oddly enough. To the EII, that lack actually indicates the presence of a deeper connection.

    It's not really seriousness, though, even though it can look like it. It's just a relaxed unexpressive attitude. Not trying to put up an emotional front or a mask of affect.

    (That's the good thing about your role being the dual's ignoring. You feel obligated to do it, but your dual will just ignore that behavior. Then you'll feel better once you realize it's not necessary. Extinguishment of the superego, or at least that part of it.)
    Last edited by Aramas; 07-20-2019 at 04:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Yeah. I wanted to emphasize that the EII ILE supervision relationship is not characterized by the EII constantly picking on the ILE and critiquing his behavior. The ILE requires emotional feedback by the use of Fe. The ILE will often try to acquire it by showing it himself to indicate that he wants some. The EII ignores Fe and withholds that kind of emotionality, which causes the ILE to feel ever more insecure as time goes on, because the EII does not give the ILE a cue that lets him know that he's being accepted. This lack of recognition can result in anger and frustration for the ILE, and it might cause the ILE to lash out at the EII.

    The EII might become upset at heedless frivolity and not being able to get a clear signal from the ILE. The ILE is not capable of emotional gravity, which is the necessary ingredient for cementing a relationship with EIIs. The ILE has a capricious, fun affect that suits his dual, the SEI. The EII will feel as if they are being toyed with or taken advantage of, because emotion is a game to some degree, for the ILE. The EII needs the rock solid affirmation that Te doms provide, which involves a certain amount of seriousness or lack of emotional expression, oddly enough. To the EII, that lack actually indicates the presence of a deeper connection.

    It's not really seriousness, though, even though it can look like it. It's just a relaxed unexpressive attitude. Not trying to put up an emotional front or a mask of affect.

    (That's the good thing about your role being the dual's ignoring. You feel obligated to do it, but your dual will just ignore that behavior. Then you'll feel better once you realize it's not necessary. Extinguishment of the superego, or at least that part of it.)
    Amen. My current experience. And the emotion is a game part results in ILE making you want to experience the full range of emotions, mad, sad, happy, uncontrollable laughter. So yea easy to feel toyed with if those emotions for you are not fast moving and dynamic, but each one is sort of a time consuming thing it's own. This results in EII (me) trying to seize control of my own emotions by not responding to ILE to signal that I don't feel like playing the game. And because of the Fe HA it's hard for ILE to understand that some people might not get along with their way of being, to them they there's always a way to get people to love them.

    Funny thing is my ILE roomate is less wild and more relaxed around my SEI cousin because he can play with his Fe so easily that he doesn't have to put in that wild effort, he's just a shock value opinion away from getting that blast of Fe that he wants. SEI " This movies is great! It's a classic" ILE (whose never seen the movie) "It sucks." SEI " WHAT?! You're crazy!!!!!!", I guess he got what he was fishing for. Here's the difference. EII "this movie is great" ILE " It sucks" EII " whatever" ILE " You liked that movie?! It was trash!" ILE calls SEI over " EII actually liked this movie, tell him it's trash!", ramping up the reaction to fish out that Fe.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 07-21-2019 at 04:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    takes shots all day making fun of it all day, to the point where if you let yourself be treated like this continually you must lack self respect.
    What kinds of shots?
    I never realized how many idiots there were until I logged on to the Internet. -- Edsger Dijkstra, Dutch Computer Scientist and pioneer in network communication (possibly apocryphal)

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    What kinds of shots?
    Shots of Vodka.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Amen. My current experience. And the emotion is a game part results in ILE making you want to experience the full range of emotions, mad, sad, happy, uncontrollable laughter. So yea easy to feel toyed with if those emotions for you are not fast moving and dynamic, but each one is sort of a time consuming thing it's own. This results in EII (me) trying to seize control of my own emotions by not responding to ILE to signal that I don't feel like playing the game. And because of the Fe HA it's hard for ILE to understand that some people might not get along with their way of being, to them they there's always a way to get people to love them.

    Funny thing is my ILE roomate is less wild and more relaxed around my SEI cousin because he can play with his Fe so easily that he doesn't have to put in that wild effort, he's just a shock value opinion away from getting that blast of Fe that he wants. SEI " This movies is great! It's a classic" ILE (whose never seen the movie) "It sucks." SEI " WHAT?! You're crazy!!!!!!", I guess he got what he was fishing for. Here's the difference. EII "this movie is great" ILE " It sucks" EII " whatever" ILE " You liked that movie?! It was trash!" ILE calls SEI over " EII actually liked this movie, tell him it's trash!", ramping up the reaction to fish out that Fe.
    Haha very true. I know what it's like being around Fe and people fishing for an emotional reaction. Also know what it feels like having to get a grip on myself so that I don't react. It's painful at times to have to deal with this BS. It's like being forced although it's not Se.

    My father is EIE afaik. So I've dealt with Fe for a long time.
    Last edited by Aramas; 07-21-2019 at 05:02 AM.

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    @YXPR @Lord Pixel

    It would be interesting to hear the opinion of an Alpha NT
    Hey, thatís me! And I think I understand how ILEs work pretty well.

    So whatís most important to understand is that Ne is basically like a drug. Users need fixes. In Deltas Ne-caused assholeness is restrained by Fi, but in Alpha NTs and especially ILEs, thereís a really persistent impulse to be amused, like a child. If you care, this technically originates in a more general need to feel interested and engaged in life; if he canít, he feels genuine despair and suicidal desires. Get to know an ILE well and youíll usually find existential despair locked under the surface. Early enough in life he gets disillusioned by how limited life appears, by his mortality, by how disgustingly similar and banal most people are, whatever. But humor is different: the same impulses that fuel desire for the novel make it significantly easier for him to find humor in things ó a specific kind of humor though. It thrills him to no end to push peopleís buttons, because heís changing them and making them act differently from normal! He not only gets to see what people are like under the surface, but actually instigate the change ó and, of course, the change is humorous, not just interesting. ILEs/Alpha NTsí favorite humor is the bizarre and unexpected, and if they can cause someone to feel their world has turned inside out for a second it causes a genuinely euporic feeling.

    I recently posted an example about how I once, without even thinking about it, convinced my girlfriend jackalopes were a real animal, because it really amused me to watch her try to fit jackalopes into her worldview. It was an asshole thing to do, but it illustrates the point. A lighter example is of my ILE classics professor: a student in class tended to swear a lot, and once he asked her to name the grammatical function of a word. She replied ďcognate accusative.Ē He replied ďplease donít swear in my class,Ē taking her aback and causing her to replay the last ten seconds several times over in her head to wonder what had provoked that response and if he was angry at her for having sworn so often in class before. He was quite amused from her confusion, and though on the one hand the joke was about a pesky element of grammar, it was also calculated to confuse her.

    Now that I explain it it really does makes us sound like jackasses. But itís really not meant that way. If ILEs realize they actually hurt someone they feel awful, and thereís generally a great deal of effort made to establish a casual, lighthearted atmosphere.
    Gods and men name her Aphrodite...Cyprus-born, because she was born in wave-dashed Cyprus; and lover of smiles, because she emerged out of the genitals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    @YXPR @Lord Pixel



    Hey, that’s me! And I think I understand how ILEs work pretty well.

    So what’s most important to understand is that Ne is basically like a drug. Users need fixes. In Deltas Ne-caused assholeness is restrained by Fi, but in Alpha NTs and especially ILEs, there’s a really persistent impulse to be amused, like a child. If you care, this technically originates in a more general need to feel interested and engaged in life; if he can’t, he feels genuine despair and suicidal desires. Get to know an ILE well and you’ll usually find existential despair locked under the surface. Early enough in life he gets disillusioned by how limited life appears, by his mortality, by how disgustingly similar and banal most people are, whatever. But humor is different: the same impulses that fuel desire for the novel make it significantly easier for him to find humor in things — a specific kind of humor though. It thrills him to no end to push people’s buttons, because he’s changing them and making them act differently from normal! He not only gets to see what people are like under the surface, but actually instigate the change — and, of course, the change is humorous, not just interesting. ILEs/Alpha NTs’ favorite humor is the bizarre and unexpected, and if they can cause someone to feel their world has turned inside out for a second it causes a genuinely euporic feeling.

    I recently posted an example about how I once, without even thinking about it, convinced my girlfriend jackalopes were a real animal, because it really amused me to watch her try to fit jackalopes into her worldview. It was an asshole thing to do, but it illustrates the point. A lighter example is of my ILE classics professor: a student in class tended to swear a lot, and once he asked her to name the grammatical function of a word. She replied “cognate accusative.” He replied “please don’t swear in my class,” taking her aback and causing her to replay the last ten seconds several times over in her head to wonder what had provoked that response and if he was angry at her for having sworn so often in class before. He was quite amused from her confusion, and though on the one hand the joke was about a pesky element of grammar, it was also calculated to confuse her.

    Now that I explain it it really does makes us sound like jackasses. But it’s really not meant that way. If ILEs realize they actually hurt someone they feel awful, and there’s generally a great deal of effort made to establish a casual, lighthearted atmosphere.
    This is a good description of the joker.

    I'm glad you were able to put into words something I knew but could not articulate. As far as what gives them the euphoric feeling, this is why this IR sucks for both sides. The very thing that gives them euphoric feeling is the very thing that causes sharp pain and hate for the thing that is causing the pain in me. Causing me to feel my world get turned inside out, for someone's pleasure just builds up resentment and bitterness over time until one day your shouting death threats lol. And it's tricky because sometimes it is genuinely funny and harmless(like that grammar joke) and sometimes it's not, the ability to find humor in things extends to ALL things even really effed up things, and sometimes it's aimed to hurt you, cuz like you said they wanna make you act different or whatever, and that's something I would do to people I don't like but ILE does that to close friends and expects them to remain close. It does take me back for sure to see that ILE doesn't already know doing this is hurtful to the person or that they really don't care sometimes it seems, so having to say it out loud feels redundant or irrelevant.

    I agree once it's finally said ILE does try to make amends, and there are times where I just try and roll with the shock value jokes and laugh along to appear unaffected, but these are unnatural compromises and our natures can only be contained for so long until he breaks and says the thing and I break and blow over.

    Just imagine if a baby was given scapula and told to do surgery on you, and they cut into your insides swinging around the blade and cutting sensitive nerve endings, the pain would be unbearable, you would scream, but baby has a blast cutting up your insides without knowing the damage being done, once the baby is bored it walks away, while you have bloodloss and opened wounds to deal with, it's a conflict of interest, this is exactly how Ne and Ti and Fi PoLR together feel against Fi dominant. The most confusing part is that later on the baby wants to be loved and is confused why you don't love it anymore, like really bruh lol, do I gotta spell it out for you, and with ILE surprisingly you do sometimes.

    If ILE has no knowledge of EII's personal life and they spend time around each other in doses, then this IR works great, nothing but Ne ideas and laughter about things neither person cares about.

    The best way I could describe the not so horrible but discomfort of this IR is imagine a graph chart that has a straight line with only a few peaks, but the peaks it does have are very high. Mostly tame moments with few but very sharp moments of friction, only over time can one tell "Hey , maybe this isn't working out."
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 07-22-2019 at 10:11 PM.

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    I just want to provide 1 example and then I'll stop bitching and moaning about this type.

    I don't know if this is a lack of ethics thing, Fi PoLR thing, but ILE gets a rise out of screwing with people but does not like when you screw with them back. It makes no sense.

    Here's a stupid example I experienced with this. ILE roommate yells " WATCH OUT!" while I'm driving, almost making me slam the breaks and screech all the way down the street. I look around to see if a car was coming and I see nothing, he goes "haaaa got em!" he was joking, Got me in a panic, ok fine it's the first time, he got me, it's kinda funny even though he has no idea I was about to send us both through the windshield. So I tell him ok haha funny, but don't do that anymore because I really was about to jam the breaks and screech down the street.

    ILE does it again a couple days later, and it still catches me off guard. Now I'm pissed, I told this guy not to do that because it seriously made me almost hit the breaks and jolt us back and forth in the car (He also doesn't know I can be a skitish driver and end up turning unpredictably and hitting a pole or something). He laughs, doesn't even realize I'm pissed and just acts like everything I said last time doesn't even matter, he claims he forgot. So I'm silent and I plot to show him what it feels like. A couple days later I randomly yell " OH SHIT!" while driving, and he looks and immediately says " Yooo don't do thaaaaat." and then I'm like now you know what I go through, and then he actually replies " You know what, I can see how I would hate driving with myself." I finally felt like he understood the panic he put me in and realized he shouldn't screw with the person driving the car like that. A couple days later he does it again, I tell him it looks like he didn't learn his lesson, and with pride he says back " NOPE!". I'm pissed, this guy doesn't understand he's trying to get us killed, I told him, and he doesn't believe me. So I decide to get him back again, I know he doesn't like leaving my apartment at night because I got bats in the roof and sometimes they fly real close to you. So one night when walking to the car at night I randomly duck like something flew near me. He goes " yo you can't do that!" and he's dead serious, I say " it's the same exact thing you do to me." Then he tries to explain to me why it's different and why I can't do that to him. I'm pissed off at just the audacity he has to even try and explain why I shouldn't treat him in ways he treats me, I'm trying to figure out if he's just completely unaware that that's what he's doing or completely lacks any respect for me. His "reasoning" was there's animals in the dark and it's not funny we could "die", and I'm like, no, we can actually die in the car though if I hit something or make a sharp turn or something out of panic, or slam the breaks and get rear ended(all for your genuine euphoria), and honestly I shouldn't even humor his concerns because he didn't give a shit about mine. I guess at that point he got it because he hasn't done it since.

    The reason I say is it a lack of ethics because "ethics" tells me clear as day " if you don't like something done to you, don't do that to other people" while ILE is perfectly fine with doing something to other people they don't like being done back to them, there's no idea of fairness there. How is it not frustrating to deal with someone who throws stones but tries to convince you not to breakdown their glass house because...? How do you reason in your mind " I should be allowed to do this to somebody, but they shouldn't be allowed to do it to me"? And this is just the stupid and petty example out of the bunch. Crap like this is guaranteed at least once a week if I'm not giving the silent treatment. And this guy has the audacity to say " If I'm not best man at your wedding I'm gonna be offended." Is it ILE, is this guy just a complete moron, is it 7w8? This isn't the first time I've experienced this with an ILE so idk.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 07-22-2019 at 10:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I just want to provide 1 example and then I'll stop bitching and moaning about this type.

    I don't know if this is a lack of ethics thing, Fi PoLR thing, but ILE gets a rise out of screwing with people but does not like when you screw with them back. It makes no sense.

    Here's a stupid example I experienced with this. ILE roommate yells " WATCH OUT!" while I'm driving, almost making me slam the breaks and screech all the way down the street. I look around to see if a car was coming and I see nothing, he goes "haaaa got em!" he was joking, Got me in a panic, ok fine it's the first time, he got me, it's kinda funny even though he has no idea I was about to send us both through the windshield. So I tell him ok haha funny, but don't do that anymore because I really was about to jam the breaks and screech down the street.

    ILE does it again a couple days later, and it still catches me off guard. Now I'm pissed, I told this guy not to do that because it seriously made me almost hit the breaks and jolt us back and forth in the car (He also doesn't know I can be a skitish driver and end up turning unpredictably and hitting a pole or something). He laughs, doesn't even realize I'm pissed and just acts like everything I said last time doesn't even matter, he claims he forgot. So I'm silent and I plot to show him what it feels like. A couple days later I randomly yell " OH SHIT!" while driving, and he looks and immediately says " Yooo don't do thaaaaat." and then I'm like now you know what I go through, and then he actually replies " You know what, I can see how I would hate driving with myself." I finally felt like he understood the panic he put me in and realized he shouldn't screw with the person driving the car like that. A couple days later he does it again, I tell him it looks like he didn't learn his lesson, and with pride he says back " NOPE!". I'm pissed, this guy doesn't understand he's trying to get us killed, I told him, and he doesn't believe me. So I decide to get him back again, I know he doesn't like leaving my apartment at night because I got bats in the roof and sometimes they fly real close to you. So one night when walking to the car at night I randomly duck like something flew near me. He goes " yo you can't do that!" and he's dead serious, I say " it's the same exact thing you do to me." Then he tries to explain to me why it's different and why I can't do that to him. I'm pissed off at just the audacity he has to even try and explain why I shouldn't treat him in ways he treats me, I'm trying to figure out if he's just completely unaware that that's what he's doing or completely lacks any respect for me. His "reasoning" was there's animals in the dark and it's not funny we could "die", and I'm like, no, we can actually die in the car though if I hit something or make a sharp turn or something out of panic, or slam the breaks and get rear ended(all for your genuine euphoria), and honestly I shouldn't even humor his concerns because he didn't give a shit about mine. I guess at that point he got it because he hasn't done it since.

    The reason I say is it a lack of ethics because "ethics" tells me clear as day " if you don't like something done to you, don't do that to other people" while ILE is perfectly fine with doing something to other people they don't like being done back to them, there's no idea of fairness there. How is it not frustrating to deal with someone who throws stones but tries to convince you not to breakdown their glass house because...? How do you reason in your mind " I should be allowed to do this to somebody, but they shouldn't be allowed to do it to me"? And this is just the stupid and petty example out of the bunch. Crap like this is guaranteed at least once a week if I'm not giving the silent treatment. And this guy has the audacity to say " If I'm not best man at your wedding I'm gonna be offended." Is it ILE, is this guy just a complete moron, is it 7w8? This isn't the first time I've experienced this with an ILE so idk.
    Your ILE friend is an asshole and generally immature. What he’s doing is genuinely dangerous. Being an ILE or not being a feeling ego might explain where his assholeness comes from, but it’s not an excuse for it. Don’t drive with him if you can avoid it.
    Gods and men name her Aphrodite...Cyprus-born, because she was born in wave-dashed Cyprus; and lover of smiles, because she emerged out of the genitals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Haha very true. I know what it's like being around Fe and people fishing for an emotional reaction. Also know what it feels like having to get a grip on myself so that I don't react. It's painful at times to have to deal with this BS. It's like being forced although it's not Se.

    My father is EIE afaik. So I've dealt with Fe for a long time.

    This is actually my major problem with LSI GF's. If you aren't doing the Fe thing a LOT, then they are going to provoke you into having an emotional reaction, and I, personally, hate drama.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This is actually my major problem with LSI GF's. If you aren't doing the Fe thing a LOT, then they are going to provoke you into having an emotional reaction, and I, personally, hate drama.
    Stalin was major prankster. I guess even that guy had something positive going for him.

    One Fe type said that it made Stalin look cute when she heard about his pranks. Emotionally immature fishing made him look OK person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I donít care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilist 007 View Post
    Stalin was major prankster. I guess even that guy had something positive going for him.

    One Fe type said that it made Stalin look cute when she heard about his pranks. Emotionally immature fishing made him look OK person.
    Exterminating a huge fraction of his own population just for a prunk, how can you be more Fe valuing than that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marep View Post
    Exterminating a huge fraction of his own population just for a prunk, how can you be more Fe valuing than that?

    That was paranoia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I donít care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    I've recognized something in this IR that could extend to other IRs and could very well already be obvious.

    Because of the Fe and Te difference I notice it is strange to be around someone who extroverts what you introvert and vice versa. My ILE roommate has said to me a few times " You hold anger in. You don't talk it out." in a way where he sees that as abnormal behavior. My guess is he is confused with understanding why I Fi and not Fe. And I notice the same on Te, sometimes when we are driving in the car I will just speak out loud my thoughts on a matter, and he will be silent while I am speaking, but he will remain silent after I'm done speaking, and while he remains silent I am secretly waiting for him to share his thoughts about the things I just said, or even acknowledge what I just said, but nothing comes out, and I notice I get a little bit of anxiety thinking he must be secretly thinking what I just said is dumb or obvious lol, so this could be me reacting to perhaps him not giving me Te feedback or him Ti-ing instead of Te-ing. So yea I think recognizing someone does not extravert what you do and introvert what you do makes you aware that the person is not like you and "strange" to you, as you do not know what it is like to have their wiring and not have your own wiring. And I imagine one could expect feedback on what they extravert and privacy on what they introvert, and that also creates a "culture shock" when dealing with another psyche that does the opposite.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 08-11-2019 at 07:11 PM.

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    One thing I have noticed as i paid closer attention to one of the ILEs i know is how he is prone to throwing tantrums. It is very irrational and it nearly forces me in a position to where I have no choice but to absorb any shock waves that the ILE causes. I loathe being in that position, it is a position of being a victim to someone's original action, so maybe the ILE is throwing flashes of Se? Alternatively, could this be a Si position that ILE is placing me in?

    ETA: another explanation for the above could be that ILE might experience some form of generic stress due to FI polr and kinda dumps that stress on me (?). I have noticed with this particular ILE he can be morbidly selfish
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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