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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyre View Post
    While Jung inspired much of MBTI and Socionics, they are not the same and not to be conflated...So your statement on that is a bit odd.
    Te: There is a switch only for introverts. This isn't something you believe or not. The systems are largely incompatible, but to help newcomers adjust, as a community, we should inform them of this factual switch. Afterwards may they type themselves according to their newly learned Socionics data. My statement isn't odd if you interpret the "elsewhere" as "the designated area" on this forum doe. Not tryn be rudee.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    Te: There is a switch only for introverts. This isn't something you believe or not. The systems are largely incompatible, but to help newcomers adjust, as a community, we should inform them of this factual switch. Afterwards may they type themselves according to their newly learned Socionics data. My statement isn't odd if you interpret the "elsewhere" as "the designated area" on this forum doe. Not tryn be rudee.
    How can it be a "factual switch" if they "may they type themselves according to their newly learned Socionics data"? This makes no sense and means the switch isn't reliable.
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    MBTI functions are flawed.

    They use the wrong formula to convert from dichotomies to functions.

    If they re-invent mbti, reread Jung, they would address the same functions as socionics.

    socionics uses the right formula bc its able to explain ITR by comparing functions/partners involved. MBTI cant do this.

    logically, it just sounds strange if you call yourself a irrational in MBTI and a rational in socionics.

    It's like being a man in the US under this criteria but becoming a woman in China under another criteria

    anyway, here's a good visual for correlation between the two systems:

    Last edited by fireee; 08-26-2020 at 03:28 AM.

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    @Pyre : If ISTJ has Si-Te as their first two functions, that creates a "type pattern." Only 1 type can have Si-Te. In Socionics, you get SLI. The two systems are incompatible, so you will have results that are unreliable when you consider factors OTHER than the general "type pattern." When you tried to quote me you did a bad job and confused yourself. I never created an "if-then" statement.
    @onfireee : I dont understand how this visual is derived. Look at INTj/Analyst. The blue "expected" correlation aligns itself with INTJ in Myers, which, shouldnt be the "expected" as INTj =TiNe and what should be expected is finding "Ti-Ne" in Myers. Correlation isn't causation either.

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    they're expecting the 16 types described in MBTI = 16 types described in socionics aka no j/p switch.

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    @onfireee : As I explained with the "type pattern," you can only have ONE "Si-Te" in BOTH systems, using this similarity, one can easily make a switch among introverts only. Extraverts have a fluid transition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    @onfireee : As I explained with the "type pattern," you can only have ONE "Si-Te" in BOTH systems, using this similarity, one can easily make a switch among introverts only. Extraverts have a fluid transition.
    theory 1 (the one u are describing) is the j/p flip theory.

    theory 2 (the one we're all talking about) is that MBTI functions are flawed in the first place. that's the key info u are missing son
    Last edited by fireee; 08-26-2020 at 03:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    @Pyre : If ISTJ has Si-Te as their first two functions, that creates a "type pattern." Only 1 type can have Si-Te. In Socionics, you get SLI. The two systems are incompatible, so you will have results that are unreliable when you consider factors OTHER than the general "type pattern."
    We can go on and on all day but it won't mean anything. All the typing systems, MBTI, Socionics, and even Jung have incredibly different descriptions of Si and Te, which leads to wildly different types in all the systems. Yes, there are "type patterns", but they are all "type patterns" in different systems for a reason. They were never meant to be used in cohesion but it's understandable why people would look for connections between them all.


    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    When you tried to quote me you did a bad job and confused yourself. I never created an "if-then" statement.
    No, that is absolutely not the case. Don't speak on behalf of my emotions and try to say I was confused, when I was anything but. I was simply rephrasing your statement to show how it doesn't make sense. I was perfectly aware of the grammatical error after posting but honestly, I only have so many shits to give on an obscure Socionics forum where I spend the rest of my shits shitposting. My point/opinion still stands otherwise.

    You can think what you want but TBH it's not going to fly with a lot of people here.
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    Since MBTI asks if one is P or J by questions like do you keep your desk messy, naturally one can end up with something that doesn't correspond to their temperament in socionics. Since mbti has Ni/Si lead as J while Fi/Ti lead is P there's a conflict between temperament and leading function. All of this is going to create a mess. And it doesn't define the elements the same way Socionics does anyway, though some are closer than others. So yes you can be a P in MBTI and a rational type in socionics. The two systems don't cleanly match.

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    @onfireee : No. What you are clearly missing, isn't that we AGREE that "the theory is that MBTI functions are flawed in the first place," since, well, we both AGREE on that. What you are missing, is that given a newcommers tendency to know their MBTI "type pattern," we can help facilitate their transition by showing them that the "type pattern" of introverts switches in J/P and extraverts stay the same.
    @Pyre : I'm not speaking "on behalf of your emotions." What you did WASN'T a "grammatical error" or a "rephrasing" of what I wrote, since, logically, you missed the point. It makes sense when you consider the similarity of "type patterns" between both incompatible systems, this "type pattern" being the only compatible thing. Don't let your feelings get the best of you.
    @inumbra : The "conflict between temperament and leading function" arises because MBTI bases the J/P off the MOST EXTRAVERTED FUNCTION, whereas Socionics bases it off the irrational or rational quality of the dominant function (S/T=P/J). Yes, "the two systems don't cleanly match," we can all agree. There is a J/P switch among introverts when we isolate the "Type pattern," aka 2 most dominant elements, since both systems can only have 1 type that fits a certain pattern. Of this there should be no question. It is a fact.
    Last edited by cactagon; 08-26-2020 at 03:38 AM. Reason: missed a period

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    @Pyre : I'm not speaking "on behalf of your emotions." What you did WASN'T a "grammatical error" or a "rephrasing" of what I wrote, since, logically, you missed the point. It makes sense when you consider the similarity of "type patterns" between both incompatible systems, this "type pattern" being the only compatible thing. Don't let your feelings get the best of you.
    Just because I didn't bend to your logic, doesn't mean I didn't understand what you were saying.

    I have actually been perfectly chill during this whole exchange. Lol.
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
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    What use are flowers?

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    Most people get their MBTI type from taking the tests, and IIRC most of those tests just score you on I/E, N/S, T/F, and J/P. So if a Socionics LII takes it and doesn't say they have a messy desk (all those J/P questions), they'll get INTJ or NiTe lol. Given how poorly MBTI seems to define the functions anyway, and given how LII has strong Ni and Te, reading the descriptions won't necessarily create an issue.

    My point is j/p switch is informative just to show people the functions don't match, but it's not going to be the case that all introverts just need to j/p switch to get their socionics type. Even introversion/extroversion is more restrictive in MBTI, so more social socionics introverts may type as MBTI extroverts.

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    @Pyre : That's the thing, lol, you didn't understand. I would hope you're perfectly chill. Logic stands above opinion tho, so you can sway or bend left, right, down, however you want, and the fact remains a fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    @Pyre : That's the thing, lol, you didn't understand. I would hope you're perfectly chill. Logic stands above opinion tho, so you can sway or bend left, right, down, however you want, and the fact remains a fact.
    What you've communicated thus far (theory wise) is that Si is Si no matter what, same with Te. That there are correlations between different systems and that they translate. So yes, I understand what you're getting at. I've been there, done that. A lot of people have.

    And if you're getting at a deeper theory with terms like "type patterns" which is not standard jargon for Socionics users, then it's not my fault I don't get it due to poor communication and delivery.

    But none of this is that serious at the end of the day.
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
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    What use are flowers?

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    @Pyre : Myers Si = Socionics Si (loosely, since they are incompatible systems). If you'd like to show it doesn't, that would make sense. However, you seem to now be agreeing, which is perfectly fine. All this was to help newbies come from MBTI to Socionics. That's why I wrote "Te" a couple posts back. When you wrote "My point/opinion still stands otherwise," and we understand your point to be that I wasn't making sense, then you would be wrong, yes, since you clearly understood...right? lol.
    Last edited by cactagon; 08-26-2020 at 04:22 AM. Reason: improper tag

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    Idk if anyone realizes, but, like, this is a Socionics forum, so anyone using anything but Socionics should find non-Socionics help elsewhere. That said, @NightHawk stands correct in her statement. While there is no J/P switch among extraverts between MBTI/Socionics, there is obviously one among introverts. In case @FDG or anyone can't understand the shortened Te version @NightHawk was so kind to post...

    In MBTI, an ESTJ has Te as their dominant function and Si as their auxiliary/secondary function.
    In Socionics, an LSE/ESTj has the same functions in the same place.
    ESTJ =ESTj/LSE
    However:
    In MBTI, an ISTJ has Si as their dominant function and Te as their auxiliary/secondary function.
    In Socionics, Si-Te equates to an SLI/ISTp.
    The switch occurs for introverts and NOT for extraverts.

    I feel @Smilex may not be Te dominate, since Te does well, as in, Te produces/optimizes, it does NOT convolute. This article, and its implications, are literally useless.
    You seem to be marginally more honest and competent than the other one so I'll try to help others a little so they're less mislead by you.

    Your misunderstanding of the Te function is complete. Te+Ni has no practical use. The darkbird being unable to recognize abstract uses shows they are not Te+Ni and you probably aren't that either. Te+Ni plays a long strategic game with no immediate payoffs. Usefulness is also individual. Any complex game (like life) will have strategies and tactics that are not immediately recognizable as useful for a novice. If you don't know why somebody does something, it might be that you don't understand the game and you don't understand the payoff. That's a general strategy tip.

    Even if one looks for a practical immediate use and doesn't find one in this thread, one is a failure. If you think you never end up in a situation where you are surrounded by people that make up a viergruppe or a tetarto, you are a failure. If you think there's nothing to gain from learning group dynamics you should give up socionics. If you ever think of combining Te+Si you should recognize that learning skills is a core attribute for this group. Learning and training are things that a smart TeSi would maintain far into their life. These are still actions that lack immediate practical use as they create the abstraction of skill. This thread was partially a learning process. It's always been more efficient to write down half-formed thoughts here than anywhere else. It sometimes allows people to correct me, which improves me. When others are unable to find an actual fault, that's useful too, in a sort of quality control way. I don't care whether this thread is useful for you. It's useful to me.

    Ej-Te is also not the function of production, it's the accepting function, it's a function that's used to cut away the useless so that the producing function has room to do it's thing. Most of Aushra's descriptions of Dynamic types are deeply flawed. Stratiyevskaya, Reynin and Gulenko have improved the science significantly. The name business logic is so limited it keeps morons thinking that all Te is good for is mercantile activity. It's so misleading since it's not even what Te is used for. Te creates space for the business but is hardly ever the business itself.

    One of the primary faults of Ej-Te+Si is that they tend to be so focussed on their own needs that they toss away those of others. This pushing away creates space for them but also creates needless enmity which eventually will come back and bite one in the ass. But that's how socionics works.

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    @Smilex lol to give me a "general strategy tip" in the form of a tautological "Usefulness is also individual" is, again, not efficient and anti-Te. Obviously Te is a dynamic element, changing for every situation. You wrote so much just to say "useful for me," which, AGREES with @NightHawk when she mentions the "letting off steam/circlejerk."

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    @Smilex lol to give me a "general strategy tip" in the form of a tautological "Usefulness is also individual" is, again, not efficient and anti-Te. Obviously Te is a dynamic element, changing for every situation. You wrote so much just to say "useful for me," which, AGREES with @NightHawk when she mentions the "letting off steam/circlejerk."
    At this point it's obvious that you are as useless as the other one. Start again. You know nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post
    At this point it's obvious that you are as useless as the other one. Start again. You know nothing.
    Typical loser mentality. I never claimed to value Te, just that you and this article have none. Retype yourself, or spend your time wisely and in your strengths, like HomeGoods.

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    To the audience at large. While cactagon fails in basic literacy, others may be able to note that I never talked about his/her valuations. He/she is fighting against his/her own hallucinations and inadequacies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    @Pyre : Myers Si = Socionics Si (loosely, since they are incompatible systems).
    Not even loosely. Si in Jung/Socionics is about "innervation phenomena", inner sensations like muscle tension, headache, hunger, weakness, vertigo, sensuality, sexual sensations, ~ "body sensations" etc. Also inner sensations as reflected from the environment, impressions from nature etc.

    Si in mbti is flawed and they seem to be speaking of something totally different.

    Also, if you look at the descriptions and type names then there seems to be no switch for introverts between mbti and socionics.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post
    To the audience at large. While cactagon fails in basic literacy, others may be able to note that I never talked about his/her valuations. He/she is fighting against his/her own hallucinations and inadequacies.
    Drawing support from a crowd? Typical loser tactics. Very Trump-esque. When you wrote "you are as useless as the other one," you are commenting on WHY you're here writing to begin with, to defend that this article ISNT lacking objective utility, along with yourself. You have been challenged, henceforth you QQ. To then write you "never talked about [my] valuations," well, were dealing strictly with Te, so in calling me useless, well, bruh, I don't even value utility, but I know when it's lacking fo sho. Is you dumb? Start again.
    Last edited by cactagon; 08-26-2020 at 05:28 PM. Reason: eque->esque

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    @Tallmo : Yes. Even very loosely. You think cuz you got Si that you is an authority now? Lettuce be less ethical and more logical, since facts matter in this particular instance. Observe:

    If we were take an official article on MBTI, namely <https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-...-attitudes.htm > the definition of Si becomes:

    "Compares present facts and experiences to past experience. Trusts the past. Stores sensory data for future use."

    Isn't it a curious thing that on < http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...verted_Sensing > it is written that a DEFINING feature of Si dominate people is that they "are able to distinguish previously experienced aesthetic sensations from new ones," almost as if they stored their sensory data, as MBTI writes, or even that they must've compared present facts and experience to past experience...allowing them to....distinguish between previously experienced sensations? lolol

    More so, < http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ation_elements > provides us with a definition of Si being "information [that] is [about] one's continuous physical exchanges with one's environment." Do you not see a loose comparison? The act of comparing present facts and experiences to past experience (as MBTI writes), given the Socinoic definition of Si being information, or a function that is in continual flux with their environment, well, now, is the horse dead yet? Any Alpha, any human child can see a pattern.

    There is a j/p switch only for introverts, when coming from MBTI to Socionics.


    This friendly, Te advice should never be discounted. It is an incontestable fact. I'm jus waiting for someone with Fi to say thank you for being so helpful. Like daymn, yall got ur heads up ur butts when you literally reference your own self-evident knowledge as an objective reason.
    Last edited by cactagon; 08-26-2020 at 05:12 PM. Reason: improper tag

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    Drawing support from a crowd? Typical loser tactics. Very Trump-esque. When you wrote "you are as useless as the other one," you are commenting on WHY you're here writing to begin with, to defend that this article ISNT lacking objective utility, along with yourself. You have been challenged, henceforth you QQ. To then write you "never talked about [my] valuations," well, were dealing strictly with Te, so in calling me useless, well, bruh, I don't even value utility, but I know when it's lacking fo sho. Is you dumb? Start again.
    Funnily enough this paragraph is in a similar vein to something Trump would type up on Twitter.
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyre View Post
    Funnily enough this paragraph is in a similar vein to something Trump would type up on Twitter.
    It's funny because it's true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    @Tallmo : Yes. Even very loosely. You think cuz you got Si that you is an authority now? Lettuce be less ethical and more logical, since facts matter in this particular instance. Observe:

    If we were take an official article on MBTI, namely <https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-...-attitudes.htm > the definition of Si becomes:

    "Compares present facts and experiences to past experience. Trusts the past. Stores sensory data for future use."

    Isn't it a curious thing that on < http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...verted_Sensing > it is written that a DEFINING feature of Si dominate people is that they "are able to distinguish previously experienced aesthetic sensations from new ones," almost as if they stored their sensory data, as MBTI writes, or even that they must've compared present facts and experience to past experience...allowing them to....distinguish between previously experienced sensations? lolol
    yes, it is actually very curious. I really hope the author wasn't influenced by myers-briggs, although it smells like that.

    Si has nothing to do with comparing with the past. Obviously if a person is focused on a certain kind of information (like any of the 8 elements) he might also remember that information. This is true for all types, and that paragraph in wikisocion is in my opinion misleading.


    More so, < http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ation_elements > provides us with a definition of Si being "information [that] is [about] one's continuous physical exchanges with one's environment." Do you not see a loose comparison? The act of comparing present facts and experiences to past experience (as MBTI writes), given the Socinoic definition of Si being information, or a function that is in continual flux with their environment, well, now, is the horse dead yet? Any Alpha, any human child can see a pattern.
    So here the author is talking about Si as a dynamic element. I think you are stretching things quite a lot now.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    @Tallmo : To say I'm "stretching things" is an admission of a partial truth, which more definitively makes you wrong and me right. There is a loose connection, whether you like it or not. As an SEI, Te shouldn't be your cup of tea, so your failure to understand this makes sense. I don't speak in opinions like all 3 of you just have. Nothing self-evident can be used to substantiate any claims, otherwise it's called hearsay, which, at least in America gets thrown out of court. You're right to conclude that the author is describing a dynamic element, which of course, by nature, accounts for, and is subject to, the changes in it's environment, a change from present to past or past to present, right? Just like the official Myers Briggs definition. What's more, not any type will "remember" past details of its dominant element. Fourth dimensionality allows for temporality, sure, but Ne most definitely does not remember details sharply, as it deals primarily with the cultural images as they ARE, not in relation to as they WERE. You're all wrong and it's okay. A simple thank you will suffice. God bless the newbies who have to argue against everybody's years worth of opinions, "obviouslys" and other self-evident bs. God also save the Queen.

    In considering the "type patterns" of both systems, there IS a j/p switch only among introverts. Nobody has refuted this with logic. Caso cerrado.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    In considering the "type patterns" of both systems, there IS a j/p switch only among introverts. Nobody has refuted this with logic. Caso cerrado.
    I agree. I don't get why anyone is even trying to argue this one point. In MBTI, the J/P is determined by whether the extroverted function (the second function in introverts) is perceiving or judging. Socionics determines J/P by the first function ONLY. It is a generally accepted idea that there is a J/P switch in the introverted types and that there is a loose connection between the functions of the two systems. The only people who i have seen argue this point are those who are down the Socionics rabbit hole, perceive it as a superior model, and trying their hardest to divorce from MBTI (this makes sense here because it's a Socionics forum).

    The definitions and applications are going to be different because they are different interpretations (The West vs Eastern Europe) and models but they are both at least loosely inspired from the same source - Jung.

    Both systems have proponents who are trying to make it scientifically valid. I would agree that Socionics has more meat to it, but when most people compare the two systems, they don't analyze the function theories of both equally. I have read type descriptions and function descriptions from both systems. While being clearly different, I definitely saw some parallels. Like I can see how SLIs are similar to ISTJs. LSIs seem like a weird mix between ISTP and ISTJ but then again I didn't realize how rigid Ti could be until I got close to a LSI/ISTP irl. He was clearly LSI and didn't fit ISTJ. He was more reactive and impromptu like an ISTP but still extremely rigid when it came to his logic and perspective (an ISTJ stereotype). LSI TI is a bit more like ISTJ (esp e1s) while LSI Se fits more clearly into ISTP.
    Last edited by Stance; 08-27-2020 at 12:59 PM.

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    Ok so here are some key differences between ISTP vs. ISTJ archetypes u find in MBTI:

    ISTP (The Craftsmen)
    1. have an adventuresome spirit, they are attracted to motorcycles, airplanes, sky diving, surfing
    2. they do no believe in or follow rules and regulations, as this would prohibit them to “do their own thing”
    3. adaptable and spontaneous

    ISTJ (The Duty fulfiller)
    1. Strongly felt internal sense of duty
    2. They are “good citizens” who can be depended on to do the right thing for their families and communities.
    3. Tend to believe in laws and traditions and expect the same from others, They’re not comfortable with breaking laws or going against the rules

    In summary:

    --ISTP is more of the rebellious, dare-devil, lemme-do-my-own-thing type while

    --ISTJ is more of the boy scout that follows the rules and respects the laws and tradition.

    Now let’s compare to the socionics archetypes and see which one fits better with which:

    SLI/ISTp
    Common social roles
    1. The quiet individualist who marches to his or her own drumbeat, cultivating eccentric, yet enjoyable interests and pretty much ignoring everything else.
    2. Mr. or Mrs. down-to-earth, who takes a dry and simple attitude towards everything, deflating all excitement and elevated emotions and sentiments.

    LSI/ISTj
    Common social roles
    1. The policeman or referee who keeps a sharp eye on how well people are adhering to the rules and takes it upon himself to correct or punish deviants.
    2. The career bureaucrat or administrator who rises through the ranks of traditional administrative structures (government organs, large corporations, and other large, hierarchical structures), carefully performing his duties and winning in the long run.


    It's pretty obvious, boys and girls.

    Drop the functions talk (again bc MBTIs are flawed)

    Both systems are describing the SAME ARCHETYPE across both systems. If u J/P flipped it'd be like getting some major plastic surgery

    EX: Say one is ISTP and u J/P flip.... You'd get a completely different archetype in socionics - a craftsmen transforms into a police officer???
    Last edited by fireee; 08-27-2020 at 04:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post

    If you consider the group of ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj... let's start by thinking what happens with them on a playground. The group has individuals that are highly energetic and dominate the physical space enjoying the physical activity and then you have individuals that just stay back and observe what's happening.

    This group leads to the ENFp-ISTj-ISTp-ENFj. As the ESF-types expend their energy they either get tired or hurt. This leads them to have to stop their actions and be frustrated and emotional while the IST-types consider this situation to prove that they were smart to conserve their energy and now as the clever ones they can do whatever they want as the playground is free.

    The third group is naturally ENTp-ISFj-ISFp-ENTj. The ENT-types start to find ways to enjoy the inactivity and throw wild ideas. The ISF-types, having run out of ideas start they fall into a routine of boredom and dutiful action, continuing out of momentum.

    Finally the fourth group ESTp-INFj-INFp-ESTj. The EST-types start to mobilize on their grand ideas enforcing new actions. The excitement of it all relieves the INF-types from their duties letting them just observe an enjoy the show.
    I have come to a conclusion of my own that these 4-groups were significant before, but from a different approach route:

    Each of these groups are "comfortable visitors" to a certain adjacent quadra.

    As an example, none of the types from ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj are Deltas, but none of them have a PoLR in the Delta quadra. Hence, you could say that the "comfort quadra" of this group is Delta.

    The group of comfortable inhabitants of Delta, as such, is extended by these types: ENFp, INFj, ISTp, ESTj and
    ESFp, INTj, INTp, ESFj

    This extended group could be considered to be more relevant to real observed situations than the quadras themselves, because quadras attract people who are comfortable in them as much as they attract people who are native to them.

    However, "extended comfort quadra" is at the same time a battleground between the types from the "visitors" and much less comfortable to the quadra's native types than the original quadra, due to supervision from the visitors.

    In reality I would expect a dynamic along these lines to unfold:
    - a group of native quadra members attracts each other
    - visitors from adjacent quadras to which the quadra is comfortable get attracted as well
    - the group is now less comfortable to the original members
    - the original members find themselves needing to ward off the visitors to make it as good as "the old days"
    - it's possible that the group will choose a side in the battle between opposing visitors and turn into an alliance of two adjacent quadras instead
    Last edited by ItsHimTheAnomaly; 08-28-2020 at 09:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post
    I understand your criticism but an ENTj is not a person. It's a theoretical type whereas you are an individual. What you're saying is that you have high capability and ability to enjoy spatial activity, by definition Si. You're claiming most happiness when engaging in the ENTj POLR. That's kinda... weird according to theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I am a Gamma raised by Deltas. Every day is Backwards day for me. I even married an SLI for her Si. Shoot me now.

    In all fairness, I know enough LIE's to see that they bridge the spectrum from "actively doing" to 'asking for help" with doing things. I attribute the differences to sub-types and the relative strengths of Ni and Te.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post
    I find this easy to understand but Aushra would've had a hell of a time trying to explain this. Probably resorting to some talk about masks.
    the defining characteristic of a PoLR function is mostly just that it's vulnerable. this says surprisingly little about how strong it is (training can make any function strong), how often it's used, or even whether the person enjoys using it. masochism (speaking mostly of the non-sexual kind) is a valid and common human emotion and one that is to an extent necessary for optimal personal growth. learn to confront your vulnerabilities, learn to enjoy the process, and all limitations dissipate before your eyes.

    I think one of Aushra's major mistakes was building into socionics the assumption that most people would wall themselves in in the comfort zone of their ego functions, but many people do something closer to the opposite.
    Last edited by ItsHimTheAnomaly; 08-28-2020 at 11:34 AM.
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    @Synchrony : I'm glad you agree. When you write, "it is a generally accepted idea that there is a J/P switch in the introverted types and that there is a loose connection between the functions of the two systems," I couldn't agree less tho, since that's why were on this thread. Did you read what @Tallmo wrote? NO loose correlation. I don't fit into "the only people who [u] have seen argue this point," which happens with subjective experiences. A lot of what you wrote repeated what I posted, but it's good to see confirmation.
    @onfireee : You begin with "Archetypes," and what follows is naturally wrong, given your incorrect premise. Of course a Craftsman doesn't transform into a Police Officer. In dealing with "type patterns," we are only looking at the first two dominant elements. As @Synchrony repeated, "The definitions and applications are going to be different because they are different interpretations and models." Were we to look at anything BUT the first 2 dominant elements, there is no smooth transition. You wrote "drop the functions talk," but here you've missed the point. That's exclusively what were dealing with, the first 2 functions of each that create a "type pattern," NOT an archetype. As I showed Tallmo, these functions LOOSELY share similarities, allowing for a comparison between "type patterns." Both systems DO NOT describe "the same archetype" as you misunderstood. Considering anything but the first 2 elements will result in confusion...which should've been pretty obvious

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    @cactagon: I meant why are people arguing against the point about the J/P switch. I was agreeing with what you said.

    In my limited sample size, I know 2 ISTJ that fit squarely into the socionics function analysis of SLI but the archetypal type descriptions are kinda hit or miss. 1 ISTJ who fits more into LSI descriptions. 1 LSI who seemed to fit slightly more into ISTP descriptions. Even in MBTI, the tertiary Fi seems to correlate with POLR Fe (ISTJ) and Tertiary Ni seems to correlate with POLR Ne. The Ti and Te descriptions of both systems seem quite similar. But the Se and Si seem to be quite different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHimTheAnomaly View Post
    I have come to a conclusion of my own that these 4-groups were significant before, but from a different approach route:

    Each of these groups are "comfortable visitors" to a certain adjacent quadra.

    As an example, none of the types from ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj are Deltas, but none of them have a PoLR in the Delta quadra. Hence, you could say that the "comfort quadra" of this group is Delta.

    The group of comfortable inhabitants of Delta, as such, is extended by these types: ENFp, INFj, ISTp, ESTj and
    ESFp, INTj, INTp, ESFj

    This extended group could be considered to be more relevant to real observed situations than the quadras themselves, because quadras attract people who are comfortable in them as much as they attract people who are native to them.

    However, "extended comfort quadra" is at the same time a battleground between the types from the "visitors" and much less comfortable to the quadra's native types than the original quadra, due to supervision from the visitors.

    In reality I would expect a dynamic along these lines to unfold:
    - a group of native quadra members attracts each other
    - visitors from adjacent quadras to which the quadra is comfortable get attracted as well
    - the group is now less comfortable to the original members
    - the original members find themselves needing to ward off the visitors to make it as good as "the old days"
    - it's possible that the group will choose a side in the battle between opposing visitors and turn into an alliance of two adjacent quadras instead
    Thank you. That's good insight.
    It's really rare to see text of this quality on this site.
    Before completely signing on to the concept of delta-friendly types though I'd have to point that subtypes are a huge issue in what really happens for any alpha or gamma in a delta environment. That's kind of a part of what you described as the conflict happening though so I guess you thought of that too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilex View Post
    Thank you. That's good insight.
    It's really rare to see text of this quality on this site.
    Before completely signing on to the concept of delta-friendly types though I'd have to point that subtypes are a huge issue in what really happens for any alpha or gamma in a delta environment. That's kind of a part of what you described as the conflict happening though so I guess you thought of that too.
    Do u have any suggestions when u have a group of mixed quadras?

    I remembering working for different groups at the same company.

    Group 1 i felt like we were on the same page
    Group 2 i felt like things were more disorganized (though still workable)

    Would u try to move away to another group, or were there any kind of socionics-related solutions to this

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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHimTheAnomaly View Post
    the defining characteristic of a PoLR function is mostly just that it's vulnerable. this says surprisingly little about how strong it is (training can make any function strong), how often it's used, or even whether the person enjoys using it. masochism (speaking mostly of the non-sexual kind) is a valid and common human emotion and one that is to an extent necessary for optimal personal growth. learn to confront your vulnerabilities, learn to enjoy the process, and all limitations dissipate before your eyes.

    I think one of Aushra's major mistakes was building into socionics the assumption that most people would wall themselves in in the comfort zone of their ego functions, but many people do something closer to the opposite.
    Most of Aushra's failures were a direct result of her own socionics type. She defined socionics types by the way of extrapolating the ENTp mindset over everyone.

    Personally, I've spent many years of my life using skills that are primarily connected with each of the possible functions in socionics. There's no absolute weakness or limit stopping us from using a polr-function or even achieving things using it. It's more of a psychological barrier type of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    Do u have any suggestions when u have a group of mixed quadras?

    I remembering working for different groups at the same company.

    Group 1 i felt like we were on the same page
    Group 2 i felt like things were more disorganized (though still workable)

    Would u try to move away to another group, or were there any kind of socionics-related solutions to this

    It's complicated.
    It also depends on what you're trying to do.
    If the job means nothing to you, just befriend whoever you feel like you would most like to work with after you're gone from that job.

    If you want to achieve something in that place of work, then it's difficult to find the optimal path. And the optimal path might also be unethical so there's also questions of how far you're willing to go.

    Are you willing to purposefully smoke out unwanted individuals to improve the function of the work space?
    Are you willing to change your principles to fit in with a power clique?
    Are you willing to work harder hours than some other maniac just to shine more?
    Understanding socionics is good and all but using socionics at the workplace can lead you into some anti-social/sociopathic acts.

    I'll tell you what though. While I was mentoring younger doctors, one of the things I always tried to impress upon them was that they should always look for a place where they feel welcome. That's the place that will help them thrive.

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    I finally read through the original posts and a lot of it does make sense. Impressive work and some of the best content on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    I finally read through the original posts and a lot of it does make sense. Impressive work and some of the best content on this forum.
    Respect is one of those magical things that when given, adds more to the glory of the giver than the receiver.

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