Thread: 24 informational elements

1. 24 informational elements

Jung got the concepts of thinking, intuition, ethics and sensorics from observation. He also observed introversion and extroversion. Combining these two concepts together is what got us the informational elements.

Aushra, being ENTp, chose these existing concepts and decided to maintain them and run as far with them as she could. She introduced the concepts of Se, Te, Fi and so on. And she got magnificent results.To get there she decided to call what we now observe as fields by the name introversion and what we now observe as objects, extroversion.

Now in general, expecting that the results that exist are the only possible results is a mistake.

From the nature of relations and the mathematical aspect of socionics we know that we can turn concepts around with mathematical inversion and we get a similar system.

The only power of Aushra's 8 informational elements is that they have been researched while there are 16 others that haven't had that much attention.

Let's try making an alternative choice. Let's connect the jungian types with introversion and extroversion in another way. Let us consider the people who prefer using an introvert function and who use sensorics. This is synonymous with the group of temperamentally rational sensory types. This is also synonymous with the words creative-sensory. Creating-sensorics or Sc is completely analogous with Se or Si. It is an informational element. We could give it a picture, a grey circle with an arrow pointing away from it. We can start talking about it's properties by observing a number of people who have high preference for this informational element.

The choice of Sc immediately leads to the other elements of Sa (accepting sensory, symbolized by grey circle with an arrow pointing to it) and of course similarly Tc, Ta, Fc, Fa, Nc and Na. We could even make an analogous grid for the model A. The first slot in the model grid is the Introvert slot and the second slot is the Extrovert function and so on.

Now this defines 16 types of people. And they are the same 16 types that exist with the original choice. The choices are equivalent.

Now we can through the power of opening our minds start discussing how creative thinking relates as a concept to accepting thinking and we can start considering what attributes are typical for the social relations between individuals of these and other groups defined along these lines. (For the first, it's of course supervisory-mirror relations) And so on. Why do this? Because it increases you understanding. Sometimes you are in a group of people who are defined better by these informational elements than Aushra's 8.

The final 8 functions are of course :
liberating-sensory for which we can use a symbol of a grey ball with 4 dots around it (and we can use Sb as short name.)
limiting-sensory for which we can use a symbolf of a grey ball with 4 dots inside it (and we can use Sm as short name)
And so on.
Again we have a cross section of elements of information and a treasure of understanding that can be gleaned the world through this point of view.

There's nothing wrong with choosing the traditional 8 elements to understand socionics. But it's a subsection and choosing to limit yourself to this point of view may allow you to proceed but in the end it will limit you and make you small.

2. There exists a chirality between these three viewpoints. So actually the number of viewpoints is expanded to 6 when you create the analogy of the model A.
Original choice was to perceive Ne etc. and choose the accepting-creating as the secondary grouping and leaving the limiting-liberating issue as implicit.

So why care about this? This was a choice, not necessity. But doesn't it work? Isn't this 'the best' choice?
Well. The theory claims that dual relatoins are 'the best' based on how they correlate within the model A. But if model A is a random choice, are dual relations really the best? And best for what? Aushra focused on marriages and such to gain popularity for the system. A good marketing ploy to be sure, but truth? Maybe. A claim that you have the secret to choice of 'best' relationships is pretty powerful. So why then all the excuses in the system? Why don't dual couples appreciate each other more? To quote Gulenko: "But because of this lack of conflict the result is that your dual seems to fade into the background when amongst other people. They seem to be too simple and ordinary, and thus not deserving of your attention. "

Eh? Aushra's choice ignores the axis of motivation. Within socionics there exists the dichotomy of positive - negative... directly related to the experience of happiness. If you choose Ne, Ni and so on as your functions but choose opposite chirality for your model A... You have the primary position of the grid as your liberating function, what creates joy for you. What you prefer, what you seek. THen your second position in the grid would be your limiting function, what you understand must exist as your personal limitation. If you look for your 'best relationship' based on this chirality you find a person whose informational function completes your own, Ne still seeks Si and so on. But you also find a relation who likes what you like! Someone who actually likes complementing you! This partnership in socionics is called an activity partnership.

In real life I see more successful marriages that are activity partnerships than I do ones that are duals. If socionics aimed to really teach us on how to find good relationships and make them work, it would focus on teaching us how to enjoy activity partnerships,how to get the most out of them and also how to accept their negative sides and how to avoid letting those negatives destroy the partnership.

In dual relationship meanwhile while complementary relations exist and there is better communication in the relationship, the relationship always has a measure of abuse. What limits one partner liberates the other. There's a continuous fight to redefine the partnership based on what you enjoy and a continuous irritation from having to accept the other partner venturing into a part of the relation that weakens you. These relations do have plenty of positives and they are important but they are related to better communication instead of better happiness.

So isn't it possible to be happy in a dual relationship? Yes, of course it is... by imposing the relationship through the combination of functions that maximizes your positivity, which incidentally maximizes the negativity experienced by your partner. Great, now you're idolizing a slave-relationship where the other is captured by your whims.

Incidentally you get the same choices of complementary couples in two different ways. Complementing through Ne and model A is the same as complementing through Liberating intuition and a model that puts accepting or creating as the first function on the model grid.

Complementing through Ne and having the first grid position be a liberating function is the same as complementing through Accepting sensory and having the first grid position be a liberating function.

And likewise the mirror complements are complementing through liberating intuition and having the first grid position be your introvert function. Or complementing through accepting intuition and having the first grid position be an introvert function.

These 6 psyche models are all analogous and equivalent to model A but lead to different perspectives and conclusions.

Likewise you can instead of quadras have analogous groupings of four types:
option 2) ENTp-ISFj-ISFp-ENTj etc.
or option 3) ENTp- ISFj-INTp-ESFj.

If you consider the group of ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj... let's start by thinking what happens with them on a playground. The group has individuals that are highly energetic and dominate the physical space enjoying the physical activity and then you have individuals that just stay back and observe what's happening.

This group leads to the ENFp-ISTj-ISTp-ENFj. As the ESF-types expend their energy they either get tired or hurt. This leads them to have to stop their actions and be frustrated and emotional while the IST-types consider this situation to prove that they were smart to conserve their energy and now as the clever ones they can do whatever they want as the playground is free.

The third group is naturally ENTp-ISFj-ISFp-ENTj. The ENT-types start to find ways to enjoy the inactivity and throw wild ideas. The ISF-types, having run out of ideas start they fall into a routine of boredom and dutiful action, continuing out of momentum.

Finally the fourth group ESTp-INFj-INFp-ESTj. The EST-types start to mobilize on their grand ideas enforcing new actions. The excitement of it all relieves the INF-types from their duties letting them just observe an enjoy the show.

...

Finally the the ENTp-ISFj-INTp-ESFj and groups of this ilk. ... This particular group is defined by careless initiatives and careful responses. The rationals dominate the physical sphere and a large number of local patterns exist in activity while ideas are allowed to be creative and wild.

ESTp-INFj-ISTp-ENFj. This particular group is defined by increasing forcefulness of initiatives and increasing bravery and gambling of the responses. A period of gathering momentum. Forcefulness and irrationality dominate physical activity while rationals focus on ideals and ethics. Random violence, moral outcries and philosophical codification.

ESFp-INTj-ISFp-ENTj. Defined by slow careful initiatives and reliance on trends allowing for great liberty of responses. Irrational kindness and rational codification of ideas and science. Increasing desire to teach and better mankind.

ENFp-ISTj-INFp-ESTj. Defined by experimental initiatives with increasing intricacy and demands and increasing selectivity in accepted responses. High productivity defined by rational thinking doers and creativity of ideas from irrationals. A situation of unexpected consequences, things getting out of hand.

3. The first post in this thread was serious. The second was more light-hearted but true.
Now I'm just kind of riffing...

Considering the groups defined by limiting or liberating functions, and complement each other through introversion /extroversion...

This group contains the conflict, dual and quasi-identical sociotypes.

We have the first group...
ENTp - ISFj - ISFp - ENTj ... Let's call this group Dawn.
This group is carefree, but decreasing carefree, democratic, business-like, sincere, yielding also increasing yielding. It is defined by liberating intuition and it's complement, limiting sensorics in their concrete well developed forms and by limiting thinking and its complement, liberating ethics in their abstract forms. This group is defined by free informational space. Any environment which encourages brainstorming will turn into this. The hot temperaments shout their ideas with glee but also a bit of fear of missing their opportunity. Any activity is done by the cold types and as such the group is slow, but still forceful in the actions as the sensory types are limited in their choice of action. Getting anything done is precious and so carries a high cost. Wages are allowed to rise and this increases business-mindedness and increasing costs decrease the carelessness.

ESTp-INFj-INFp-ESTj - Let's call this group Noon
This group is careful and increasing careful, aristocratic, business-like, sincere, yielding also decreasing yielding. It is defined by Limiting thinking in it's concrete form and its complement, liberating ethics also in the concrete form. Likewise its defined by Liberating sensory activity in its abstract form and its complement, limiting intuition, also in the abstract form. 'If you want something done, you have to do it yourself' is what drives the hot temperaments to action. There is no longer faith in the ideas that created the thought processes that are now pushing them to action. Business-minded planning drives the activity now. The operating environment is getting dangerous, forced and cutthroat. Productivity is high but variety is limited. Careful planning precedes every activity. The cold temperaments are pushed out of the direct physical engagements. This gives them freedom to give to dream, learn, make art and enjoy.

ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj - Let's call this group Dusk
This group is careful, but decreasing careful, democratic, passionate, cold and obstinate, also increasingly obstinate. It is defined by liberating sensory and it's complement, limiting intuition in their concrete well developed forms and by limiting ethics and its complement, liberating thinking in their abstract forms. Plentiful physical resources, freely available, increasingly cheap labour define this group. Physical activity is high causing high stress levels to the cold temperaments, who become increasingly frustrated by the pointlessness of it all. Demands for conservation of resources start to rise as productivity is depleting the resources. Intellectual criticism of prevailing conditions dominates the academic sphere.

ENFp-ISTj-ISTp-ENFj, let's call this group midnight.
This group is carefree and increasing carefree, aristocratic, passionate, cold, obstinate, also decreasing obstinate. It is defined by Limiting ethics in it's concrete form and its complement, liberating thinking also in the concrete form. Likewise its defined by Liberating intuition activity in its abstract form and its complement, limiting sensory, also in the abstract form. The hot temperaments find themselves in endless arguments over poorly developed concepts fighting over what is right and what is wrong. Very little gets done. The impossibility of getting their voices heard allows the cold temperaments time to focus on their own concerns and do what they want the way they want. As everything seems pointless, they find that things have exactly the worth they give it, motivating few, but creative and well-thought out physical creations.

...

One could quite easily argue that this group correlates better with the business cycle than quadras do and as such I hope this interests some of you.

4. This post reserved for discussing the groups defined by accepting and creative informational elements complementing each other through positivity or negativity.

These groups consist of activity, contrary and conflict relations.

ENFp-ISTj-INFp-ESTj ... Let's call this group Plants.
Creating concrete ethics and abstract accepting intuition complementing accepting concrete thinking and creating abstract sensory.
Rational thinking sensory
Irrational ethical intuition
Tactical and increasing
Emotion-creating but decreasing
Aristocratic

This group combines the slow stepwise controlled rational change of plans into actions with the sequential outbursts of rapid moody behaviour trying to find out how to relate to the slowly progressing events. As the process continues, more and more is at stake as the results start to come evident. The rational behaviour becomes more intense while the irrationals quiet down seeing that the moment is past, starting to take in the new balance. This group is about a slow evolution that creates a variety of experiences with the opportunity of experiencing this growth (or degeneration). The slowness of the process liberates the cold temperaments that get to fully enjoy the experience while the same slow pace pains the hot temperaments. As the process of rational progression gains pace, the system itself gains power and becomes self-important. The original meaningful idea lost. Simultaneously the irrational types feel more and more detached and distanced from their own goals as they are cut off from both the connection to the reason of the activity and unable to change the fait accompli.

ENTp-ISFj-INTp-ESFj ... Let's call this group Herbivores
Accepting concrete intuition and creative abstract thinking complementing creative concrete sensory and accepting abstract ethics
Rational ethical sensory
Irrational thinking and intuition
Tactical but decreasing.
Creation-creating and increasing.
Democratic
The sensory dimension is dominated by rapid, self-serving production of results for the sake of results. The repetitive systematic environment gives opportunity to the irrational intellectuals to slowly ingest and digest what is happening and process the events thoroughly to give well thought out commentary on the circumstances. The plentiful action is freeing and exciting to the hot temperaments but tiring to the cold temperaments. This group is about making or getting a large impression as well and focus on repetition. This creates a self-assuredness in this group allowing the individuals a feeling of importance and power, safety in their choices and roles.

ESTp-INFj-ISTp-ENFj. ... Let's call this group Carnivores.
Creative concrete thinking and accepting abstract sensory complementing accepting concrete ethics and creating abstract intuition
Rational ethical intuition
Irrational thinking sensory
Strategic and increasing
Creation-creating but decreasing
Aristocratic
The group combines the irrational process of proceeding into action, well thought out but hasty and variable in the execution with the strong emotional connection of the rationals that slowly dissipates into detachment, witnessing the random results. As all types start with great conviction and the physical activity is random and unpredictable this group has a great likelyhood of causing pain, both emotional and physical. While significant and surprising positives are also created, people have a tendency of assessing the risk of loss greater than the possibility of gain. The decrease of social relations gives more importance to what is viewed as important by the individuals themselves. The individual's particularities are strongly shown in this group and as such the likelihood of forming small subgroups is significant.

ESFp-INTj-ISFp-ENTj. ... Let's call this group Detritivores.
Accepting concrete sensory and creating abstract ethics complementing creating concrete intuition and abstract accepting thinking
Rational thinking intuition
Irrational ethical sensory
Strategic but decreasing
Emotion-creating and increasing
Democratic
This group is in the physical realm defined by slow, meandering activity that progresses towards a sense of satisfaction combined with rapid throwing of ideas resulting from the variability of available stimulus. There's a sense of weak ability to cause things to happen and a feeling of low self-importance, decreasing contact to what is considered important, a loss of the perceived self and a rise of speculation. A focus on experimentation. The decrease of self-importance allows for greater sociability which excites the hot temperaments but simultaneously crushes the cold temperaments. Low self-respect, and lack of class may be thrown around about this group.

5. I didn't understand

6. Originally Posted by Smilex
This post reserved for discussing the groups defined by accepting and creative informational elements complementing each other through positivity or negativity.

ENTp-ISFj-INTp-ESFj
Rational ethical sensory
Irrational thinking and intuition
Tactical but decreasing.
Emotion-creating and increasing.
Democratic

And so on.

ESTp-INFj-ISTp-ENFj.

ESFp-INTj-ISFp-ENTj.

ENFp-ISTj-INFp-ESTj
If I am in a group with ILE there’s bound to be trouble! ;-)

But seriously, I found your first post quite interesting. I think I am most attracted to my Activity partners in a sort of electric and helpless sort of way.

7. Originally Posted by MrsTortilla
If I am in a group with ILE there’s bound to be trouble! ;-)

But seriously, I found your first post quite interesting. I think I am most attracted to my Activity partners in a sort of electric and helpless sort of way.
Thank you. Got you your ENTp-ISFj group fleshed out. Enjoy!

8. Originally Posted by ooo
I didn't understand
Don't worry.
Which part?

9. Originally Posted by Smilex
Thank you. Got you your ENTp-ISFj group fleshed out. Enjoy!
Haha what I meant was trouble in a not good sort of way. :/

10. Let's try making an alternative choice. Let's connect the jungian types with introversion and extroversion in another way. Let us consider the people who prefer using an introvert function and who use sensorics. This is synonymous with the group of temperamentally rational sensory types. This is also synonymous with the words creative-sensory. Creating-sensorics or Sc is completely analogous with Se or Si. It is an informational element. We could give it a picture, a grey circle with an arrow pointing away from it. We can start talking about it's properties by observing a number of people who have high preference for this informational element.

The choice of Sc immediately leads to the other elements of Sa (accepting sensory, symbolized by grey circle with an arrow pointing to it) and of course similarly Tc, Ta, Fc, Fa, Nc and Na. We could even make an analogous grid for the model A. The first slot in the model grid is the Introvert slot and the second slot is the Extrovert function and so on.

...

The final 8 functions are of course :
liberating-sensory for which we can use a symbol of a grey ball with 4 dots around it (and we can use Sb as short name.)
limiting-sensory for which we can use a symbolf of a grey ball with 4 dots inside it (and we can use Sm as short name)
And so on.
Again we have a cross section of elements of information and a treasure of understanding that can be gleaned the world through this point of view.
Model A works by corresponding elements and functions. It's not clear what the functions and elements are in your model (if that's how it works), or what they're supposed to represent. Can you describe them in detail?

And what is "liberating/limiting"?

11. Hi Hotel,

THis isn't my model. It exists. I just write about it and with the lack of previously given names to a few things (at least to my knowledge), I'm naming a few things.
About limiting and liberating (or enabling)... Every type in socionics is defined by either the quality negativist or the quality positivist. Each of these sociotypes is both defined by and separated from each other by functions. Each of these functions have qualities. If a function changing from abstract to concrete changes the related type from negativist to positivist it is reasonable to give this quality a name and a natural name for this quality is liberating or enabling. For the opposite, a natural name is limiting.
All these things already exist in socionics. I'm just annoyed that nobody has bothered to write anything about them.

12. Dawn, Noon, Dusk and Midnight groups are analogous to the quadras. They deserve similarly an analogous name.
Let's call them Tetartos.

Dawn
ENTp - ISFj - ISFp - ENTj

Dawn - the tetarto of "Pie in the sky". As all the tetartos, Dawn is created by the four informational aspects that define this group: Liberating Concrete Intuition, Limiting Concrete Sensory, Limiting Abstract Thinking and Liberating Abstract Ethics. These create the three main Tetarto traits:

1. Democratic
The easiest way to understand the democratic groups is as "What comes after?" The event, the action has happened and is plain to see for everyone. The evidence is on the table. Everything is clear. The stress of causing things to happen is gone and what remains is afterglow and regret. This lack of stress is sensed by society as democratic freedoms. Democratic discussions are far removed from causing practical consequences and as such they are non-threatening. Because of this they can also be seen as annoying and pointless. What action continues to happen is removed from its reasons. It continues to happen largely out of momentum and the activity continues to change into a form that's focused on the artistic, emotional or social aspect of the activity.

Dawn is democratic in the way of 'seeing the light'. An abundance of new ideas, hopes and wishes for a new day.

2. Carefree (
Defined by the qualities of liberating intuition and an limiting sensing, both also decreasing in this tetarto.)
All things are taken as obvious and self-evident. Concepts are large and powerful, action is pointed, focused, limited. Little is happening so there's no danger for anyone, anywhere. Danger is laughed at and foolhardiness prevails. The quality of 'carefree' is defined by positivist thinking and and negativist ethics and thinking is the planning and intentions that precede action it can be said that the saying 'the road to hell is paved by good intentions'. This tetarto carries the themes of regret, failure and loss as well as the feeling of 'nothing to lose'.

3. Compliance (defined by the qualities of limiting thinking and enabling ethics, also related to positive intuition and negative sensory. This quality is increasing in this tetarto.
As the ideas of this tetarto are liberally chosen, they are in and of themselves without gravitas. To proceed they need the weight gained from selecting and developing a limited number of them and funneling energy towards a narrower path of planning. Simultaneously as the distance from the regretted acts grows the group is able to handle emotionally the loss and regret. Forgiveness and acceptance slowly increase the emotional space available, though in this group that space remains narrow. The quality of compliance is related to negotiating with with good faith and in a responsible way, with understanding that any actions taken based on agreement are done out of necessity and carry a price. There's a strong relation to business-mindedness. This tetarto is willing to renegotiate these rules and push these concepts as they remain only partially developed for them.

This group is defined by free informational space. Any environment which encourages brainstorming will turn into this. The hot temperaments shout their ideas with glee but also a bit of fear of missing their opportunity. Any activity is done by the cold types and as such the group is slow, but still forceful in the actions as the sensory types are limited in their choice of action. Getting anything done is precious and so carries a high cost. Wages are allowed to rise and this increases business-mindedness and increasing costs decrease the carelessness.

With all these qualities the Dawn tetarto tend to create new paths and break taboos. They may face derision and be not taken seriously but with their good intentions and fair-mindedness they are also allowed into leadership positions often enough.

As the enabling functions of this tetarto are intuition and ethics, these are the functions that are preferred to be shown and repeated. These are the areas of life displayed. Good ideas, good feelings, good people. But this generosity is more in words than actions. The particularly evident strength of this group is powerful ideas. This is what really drives the tetarto.

What is avoided is the limiting sensory and thinking. Practical actions and thinking is minimalist. It is done when needed. Thinking and planning in particular is also abstract and as such, fumbling and speculative, ineffective for this group, but as such it is also creative though by necessity. Plans rise out of need. Sensory activity is concrete, so there is capability, though the focus is narrow and purposefully hidden.

13. Originally Posted by MrsTortilla
If I am in a group with ILE there’s bound to be trouble! ;-)
Well, at least the group is not called carnivores.

14. Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
Well, at least the group is not called carnivores.

15. To satisfy the incessant demand for ENTp-ISFj couplings here's the other set...

Herbivores
ENTp-ISFj-INTp-ESFj

Herbivores are not a quadra and neither are they a tetarto. Let's call this a viergruppe.

This viergruppe is defined by the four functions: Accepting concrete intuition and creative abstract thinking complementing, creative concrete sensory and accepting abstract ethics

1. Democratic
The easiest way to understand the democratic groups is as "What comes after?" The event, the action has happened and is plain to see for everyone. The evidence is on the table. Everything is clear. The stress of causing things to happen is gone and what remains is afterglow and regret. This lack of stress is sensed by society as democratic freedoms. Democratic discussions are far removed from causing practical consequences and as such they are non-threatening. Because of this they can also be seen as annoying and pointless. What action continues to happen is removed from its reasons. It continues to happen largely out of momentum and the activity continues to change into a form that's focused on the artistic, emotional or social aspect of the activity.

Herbivores have the sensation of 'So that happened', a passive distant gazing slowly theoretizing on what was witnessed combined with a focus on particular action or event that was committed, possibly including attempts to either fix or repeat the event. While this is the smiley for the group, the group isn't likely to use this, because people using this are making a point that they're just observing whereas this group is just observing and masticating.

2. Tactical (defined by the aspects of accepting intuition and creating sensory)
Defined by process-thinking and results ethics. Basically this means slow planning and hasty assessment. In particular this quality exists in herbivores in the decreasing sense. Planning is in its early stages and unlikely to actually lead to anything but when done, it's done meticulously. The direct consequences of acts committed are thought of in a hasty manner and effects are achieved to an extent through iterations and variations of the same. There is a general feeling of 'this is the interim' or 'this is just a phase' or 'that wasn't the real me'.

3 Creation-creating (Defined by accepting ethics and creating thinking)
As defined by process-intuition combined with result-sensory. Abstract things are considered slowly and with great care whereas physical things are approached hastily. As the importance is placed on concepts, the achievement of this group is the powerful plan, or ideal. The execution is unimportant, considered easy and trivial. People are evaluated based on ability to produce plans of quality and emotions of quantity. As such this group thrives where the circumstances provide abundant support for sensory and ethical spheres and scarcity for intuition and thinking. Emotions of the circumstances are accepted.

"I live for my sons. I would be lost without them."
The sensory dimension is dominated by rapid, self-serving production of results for the sake of results. The repetitive systematic environment gives opportunity to the irrational intellectuals to slowly ingest and digest what is happening and process the events thoroughly to give well thought out commentary on the circumstances. The plentiful action is freeing and exciting to the hot temperaments but tiring to the cold temperaments. This group is about making or getting a large impression as well and focus on repetition. This creates a self-assuredness in this group allowing the individuals a feeling of importance and power, safety in their choices and roles.

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents."
Herbivores succeed in chaos. Where things are constantly happening and it's difficult to find what is important and what is unimportant. Where nobody controls the overall situation and things have gotten out of hand, they succeed by either outpacing the chaos or by finding unique pressure points to push events according to their desire.

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies"
This viergruppe develops reliable performers and beloved individuals of rarefied genius who others fail to explain except by the individuals being unique, even magical. Meanwhile the physical and artistic endeavours of this group attract more variable attention. While the numbers and results speak for themselves and individuals can gain great success, the individuals are taken for granted even when they are imitated.

This group is most visible in its frivolousness but deeper under the surface there's great power though it's only used when necessary.

"Anyone who has ever been privileged to direct a film also knows that, although it can be like trying to write 'War and Peace' in a bumper car in an amusement park, when you finally get it right, there are not many joys in life that can equal the feeling."
As a group this viergruppe can come together to produce great artistic genius particularly in areas of film, architecture, opera and such where a single genius guiding a group of reliable performers.

16. Noon "The Weight of the world"

ESTp-INFj-INFp-ESTj

The Tetarto
is defined by Limiting thinking in it's concrete form and its complement, liberating ethics also in the concrete form. Likewise its defined by Liberating sensory activity in its abstract form and its complement, limiting intuition, also in the abstract form.

1. Aristocratic
Aristocracy as a quality is easiest understood as a set of qualities that define how an individual must or may act. These qualities arise from plans, laws, debts, promises, contracts, permits and such. Everything done is so as to properly prepare for the accomplishment of a particular type of activity or to associate with and guide the activities of others. Since not everybody should be doing the same thing but rather there should be a division of labour, individuals fall into smaller categories and groups that define them. This limits the sphere of interest of individuals of this type. Aristocratic types may also be seen as dangerous and powerful due to their opinions likely leading to action. They may also be seen as brutish, uncivilized, unkind and not clever.

2. Compliance (defined by the qualities of limiting thinking and enabling ethics, also related to positive intuition and negative sensory. This quality is decreasing in this tetarto.)
The ideas of this group are positive and hopeful. They rely on others facing the burdens on the level of physical action. In this tetarto the ideas aim to be charming to allow making desirable connections. The weight of planning increases pressure to the hot individuals as they 'overthink' until they're able to start releasing tension through actual activity. Sun Tzu describes the tension and release in this tetarto as such: 'Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first then seek to win.' The quality of compliance is related to negotiating with with good faith and in a responsible way, with understanding that any actions taken based on agreement are done out of necessity and carry a price. There's a strong relation to business-mindedness. This tetarto is about proceeding with the path as defined by the negotiations, the stage of theory being complete, the path set.

3. Careful (Defined by the qualities of liberating sensory and an limiting intuition, both also increasing in this tetarto.)
The elements of thinking are negative and forced while ethics positive meaning that which precedes action is forced, that which follows is liberal. Success and winning are the aim of activity. Actions are carefully prepared for and chosen but eagerly committed. This competitiveness of the hot types is frustrating and off-putting to the cold types. In this type though hope spring eternal. Though the cold types may feel martyrlike or victimized and they may try to withdraw, avoid confrontations just before they appear they tend to fuel and speed up the events right up to that point. This tetarto is about the anticipation of 'the heat of action' or 'the hottest part of the day'.

'If you want something done, you have to do it yourself' is what drives the hot temperaments to action. There is no longer faith in the ideas that created the thought processes that are now pushing them to action. Business-minded planning drives the activity now. The operating environment is getting dangerous, forced and cutthroat. Productivity is high but variety is limited. Careful planning precedes every activity. The cold temperaments are pushed out of the direct physical engagements. This gives them freedom to give to dream, learn, make art and enjoy.

Playful teasing, freely transforming associations, capturing connections and picking friends are strong and useful behaviours in this tetarto. Individuals claim inability and weakness to withdraw and gain help and protection.

As the enabling functions of this tetarto are ethics and sensory, these are the functions that are preferentially shown. Despite the associations of danger in this group, this tetarto shows kindness to form bonds. Intuition and thinking are limiting and as such they're kept to a minimum. As such, being intellectual is considered ... uncouth in this tetarto. As Ethics is what is both concrete and easily shown, this is what drives interactions in this tetarto. Sensory is asbtract and as such it is considered a goal, speculative and as such a field for experimentation.

17. Originally Posted by Smilex
Hi Hotel,

THis isn't my model. It exists. I just write about it and with the lack of previously given names to a few things (at least to my knowledge), I'm naming a few things.
About limiting and liberating (or enabling)... Every type in socionics is defined by either the quality negativist or the quality positivist. Each of these sociotypes is both defined by and separated from each other by functions. Each of these functions have qualities. If a function changing from abstract to concrete changes the related type from negativist to positivist it is reasonable to give this quality a name and a natural name for this quality is liberating or enabling. For the opposite, a natural name is limiting.
All these things already exist in socionics. I'm just annoyed that nobody has bothered to write anything about them.
Regardless of whether it's "your model" or not, I would appreciate a clearer answer. As you may know, I've extensively characterized the possible structures implicit in socionics. https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com/socionics_math

How does "a function changing from abstract to concrete change the related type from negativist to positivist"? If you change EIE's Ni to Si then it becomes an ESE, is that what you mean? Actually if you change any individual function into the opposite it will reverse the negativist/positivist dichotomy. Is limiting a property of a function or an element?

Besides naming things, you're also making a lot of empirical claims, some of which don't really work with classical socionics. SEEs "defined by slow careful initiatives"? LIEs "defined by slow, meandering activity"? That doesn't make any sense, SEEs and LIEs are some of the most restless and fast-acting types.

18. Originally Posted by thehotelambush
Regardless of whether it's "your model" or not, I would appreciate a clearer answer. As you may know, I've extensively characterized the possible structures implicit in socionics. https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com/socionics_math

How does "a function changing from abstract to concrete change the related type from negativist to positivist"? If you change EIE's Ni to Si then it becomes an ESE, is that what you mean? Actually if you change any individual function into the opposite it will reverse the negativist/positivist dichotomy. Is limiting a property of a function or an element?
Besides naming things, you're also making a lot of empirical claims, some of which don't really work with classical socionics. SEEs "defined by slow careful initiatives"? LIEs "defined by slow, meandering activity"? That doesn't make any sense, SEEs and LIEs are some of the most restless and fast-acting types.
You're disappointing me.
You don't turn an ENFj into an ESFj by painting over a function with another one. That's not how people work. That's ridiculous to the point of being pointless to discuss. The border between ESFj and ENFj is when Fe coalesces from an abstraction into a concrete form as they gain experience and confidence in the function. Simultaneously the other traits change and the association changes from Si to Ni though this is the least perceptible part of the change as relative functional strength between these two qualities. This border is what a function is and the sides of this define what the function does. It's very simple and self-evident.

ESFps are a process type. I understand if you don't know many of them personally but they are in socionics defined as progressing step by step without leaping to the results. They are also a taciturn type. THey proceed without internal guidance in their activity and as such their progress in their activities is experimental, slowly progressing. ESFps are also classified as a careful type. This is both according to theory and according to reality. THey just have their own way of being careful. They're very selective in their choices.

ENTjs avoid all activity. THey are an intuitive type. They prefer others do the activity. ENTjs therefore do not define the activity part of the group they are associated with. This is analogous with quadras. Criticizing this is the same as criticizing that ENFps are part of a quadra that values Te. THey are just a group member who complements this. ENTjs complement meandering activity.

Have you ever read a quadra description? They are very strained in how they try to unite types that are completely different under a label. This work is analogous. As such this carries the same type of weaknesses but also brings in new understanding. Which is the point.

I think you're being wilfully ignorant. But I can understand the disrespect. I am partially also satirizing for Aushra's work is worthy of parody. But I encourage you to go and study quadras and maybe come back to this thread in a few years. The point stands.

19. Dusk "One gear, go! Epic winning"

ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj

This tetarto is defined by liberating sensory and it's complement, limiting intuition in their concrete well developed forms and by limiting ethics and its complement, liberating thinking in their abstract forms.

1. Democratic
The easiest way to understand the democratic groups is as "What comes after?" The event, the action has happened and is plain to see for everyone. The evidence is on the table. Everything is clear. The stress of causing things to happen is gone and what remains is afterglow and regret. This lack of stress is sensed by society as democratic freedoms. Democratic discussions are far removed from causing practical consequences and as such they are non-threatening. Because of this they can also be seen as annoying and pointless. What action continues to happen is removed from its reasons. It continues to happen largely out of momentum and the activity continues to change into a form that's focused on the artistic, emotional or social aspect of the activity.

Dusk is democratic in the way of being playful, actively drawing people in to interaction. The plenty of social interaction is available for everyone to the point of being a disturbance. Dusk has the characteristics of a 'party'.

2. Careful (Defined by the qualities of liberating sensory and an limiting intuition, both also decreasing in this tetarto.)
The elements of thinking are negative and forced while ethics positive meaning that which precedes action is forced, that which follows is liberal. Success and winning are the aim of activity. Actions are carefully prepared for and chosen but eagerly committed. This competitiveness of the hot types is frustrating and off-putting to the cold types. In this tetarto, careful evaluation is taken of past events. While the physical situation seems free, these freedoms taken actually constrict the mental space available and enforce lack of options to the less physically dominant individuals. The full pain of victimhood is felt in this tetarto.

3. Obstinate (defined by limiting ethics and enabling thinking, both also increasing in this tetarto.
The element of intuition is negative and the element of sensory is positive in this tetarto. Lack of imagination, enjoyment from physical activity, willingness to turn every argument physical, inability to negotiate. Passion or coolness in conduct. "I reject your reality and substitute my own." Sports and competitivity are common. Physical activity as a means to joy.

Plentiful physical resources, freely available, increasingly cheap labour define this group. Physical activity is high causing high stress levels to the cold temperaments, who become increasingly frustrated by the pointlessness of it all. Demands for conservation of resources start to rise as productivity is depleting the resources. Intellectual criticism of prevailing conditions dominates the academic sphere.

This group is defined by free physical space. Any environment which encourages physical freedoms quickly turns to this. The hot temperaments do whatever brings them joy until they're worn out. The metal activity in the group is done by the cold temperaments and as such, it's slow in the beginning but after it gets caught on, it gathers pace out of necessity, to make some sense of it all. There's a disappointment of wasted opportunity. If the cold types just could choose how all that extra physical effort was used, it wouldn't be such a loss.

In this tetarto there's a kind of frivolous pettiness that increases as the actions of the group become evident and passions rise. They create new paths and break taboos as the Dawn group does, but on a more personal level. Feelings of unfairness may rise and they require resolution through concrete activity but as the stress releases, the activity quickly gets a playful tone.

As the enabling functions of this tetarto are sensory and thinking, these are the functions that are preferred to be shown and repeated. These are the areas of life displayed. As a group they can engage in clever activity. Clever choices, ability to make things happen. Physical success is what really drives this group though planning is considered a plus since it leads to more success.

'We get along well when we build something together ... but we also drive each other absolutely batty." Intuition and ethics are limiting, they encourage negativity and as such are kept hidden if possible. Powerful emotions and powerful ideas are dangerous, stick to the simple things that work. Grudges may fester. Intuition is concrete in this tetarto so negative assessments are the true driving force of this behaviour. Ethics is the true weak spot of this Tetarto as it is both limiting and abstract. 'What have you done?" is a frightening question at the end of the day.

20. Originally Posted by Smilex
ENTjs avoid all activity. They are an intuitive type. They prefer others do the activity.
I think what you are doing is very interesting and is certainly worth exploring, but I have to disagree that ENTj's avoid all activity. At least, I don't.

I got jobs as a machinist and a welder so I could learn how to make things, and then I bought lathes, mills, grinders, and welders so I could make anything I wanted. I learned how to make telescope mirrors and lenses, and built interferometers to test them. I replaced the plumbing in my house, replaced the electrical wires and panels (and it passed inspection), dug the trenches, insulated the garage, replaced the roof myself, and then disassembled the engine of my car at 300k miles and rebuilt it in the driveway one summer.

I have to admit, I now prefer to have other people do work for me now, but only because it is more efficient, not because I don't like to work with my hands. Professionals can usually do a better job than I can when I'm first learning how to do something, and I now make money at a high enough rate that doing something myself that I could pay someone to do only loses me money.

I hate to do nothing. It drives me crazy. I'm happiest, I'm most in a Zen state of mind, when I'm actually doing something physical. My biggest problem nowadays is that I spend all my time in conversations, either showing people the way ahead or putting out fires and making minor course corrections, none of which involves physical activity, and it is taking a toll on me.

21. Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I think what you are doing is very interesting and is certainly worth exploring, but I have to disagree that ENTj's avoid all activity. At least, I don't.

I got jobs as a machinist and a welder so I could learn how to make things, and then I bought lathes, mills, grinders, and welders so I could make anything I wanted. I learned how to make telescope mirrors and lenses, and built interferometers to test them. I replaced the plumbing in my house, replaced the electrical wires and panels (and it passed inspection), dug the trenches, insulated the garage, replaced the roof myself, and then disassembled the engine of my car at 300k miles and rebuilt it in the driveway one summer.

I have to admit, I now prefer to have other people do work for me now, but only because it is more efficient, not because I don't like to work with my hands. Professionals can usually do a better job than I can when I'm first learning how to do something, and I now make money at a high enough rate that doing something myself that I could pay someone to do only loses me money.

I hate to do nothing. It drives me crazy. I'm happiest, I'm most in a Zen state of mind, when I'm actually doing something physical. My biggest problem nowadays is that I spend all my time in conversations, either showing people the way ahead or putting out fires and making minor course corrections, none of which involves physical activity, and it is taking a toll on me.
I understand your criticism but an ENTj is not a person. It's a theoretical type whereas you are an individual. What you're saying is that you have high capability and ability to enjoy spatial activity, by definition Si. You're claiming most happiness when engaging in the ENTj POLR. That's kinda... weird according to theory.

22. Originally Posted by Smilex
I understand your criticism but an ENTj is not a person. It's a theoretical type whereas you are an individual. What you're saying is that you have high capability and ability to enjoy spatial activity, by definition Si. You're claiming most happiness when engaging in the ENTj POLR. That's kinda... weird according to theory.
I am a Gamma raised by Deltas. Every day is Backwards day for me. I even married an SLI for her Si. Shoot me now.

In all fairness, I know enough LIE's to see that they bridge the spectrum from "actively doing" to 'asking for help" with doing things. I attribute the differences to sub-types and the relative strengths of Ni and Te.

23. Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I am a Gamma raised by Deltas. Every day is Backwards day for me.

In all fairness, I know enough LIE's to see that they bridge the spectrum from "actively doing" to 'asking for help" with doing things. I attribute the differences to sub-types and the relative strengths of Ni and Te.
I find this easy to understand but Aushra would've had a hell of a time trying to explain this. Probably resorting to some talk about masks.

24. Originally Posted by Smilex
I find this easy to understand but Aushra would've had a hell of a time trying to explain this. Probably resorting to some talk about masks.
Aushra did a fantastic job in establishing the basic theory. She can hardly be blamed for not anticipating every case.

25. Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Aushra did a fantastic job in establishing the basic theory. She can hardly be blamed for not anticipating every case.
I agree. If she was a complete failure, she wouldn't be worth making fun of.

While her seminal work is basically carrying everything on this forum, that same work also included ... some real gems of ideas

"According to our hypotheses, the elements are aligned with the meridians of IM as follows:
- Posterior median meridian;
- The meridians of the stomach and pancreas;
- The meridians of the bladder and kidneys;
- The meridians of the gallbladder and liver;
- The front middle meridian;
- The meridian of the heart and small intestine;
- Pericardium meridian and three parts of the body;
- The meridians of the lungs and colon.

Our observations confirm this hypothesis. For example, the logical extraverts and indeed often suffer from heart, and ethical extroverts - the kidneys, and intuitive extravert - stomach, pancreas, liver."

This is the same work which some members of this forum consider the ultimate and final piece of socionics research. Oh my god.

Every good scientist comes to be surpassed which does not detract from their glory but glorifies them. (Just to make sure, better say this as well... I'm not claiming to have surpassed Aushra, just that socionics has). Pointless people are never followed and thus remain the apogee of their own brand of lunacy.

26. I agree that some of her ideas struck me as being pretty far out there. I hadn't seen the meridians of IM before, but I did see the attempted links between socionic functions and three-dimensional space and time. I don't know if she was responsible for those or not.

When I first saw that association, I thought to myself that someone was trying desperately to be respectable, when the value of the theories should rest on their own merits and not on some abstract association with Physics. I realize that there is a tendency to elevate the "hard" sciences and to denigrate the "soft" sciences, and I know how hard it is to pioneer new ideas and get them established, but I believe that all endeavors have value if they explain or predict things in verifiable ways.

27. Um... in terms of 3D literal physical activity LIEs and SEEs aren't often slow and meandering, but I get how they are being defined by that in theory. Their thought processes can be slow and meandering at times and it doesn't concretize easily. They can be a bit meandering when coming to decisions to act. They are high power strikers. If you are a heavyweight power striker, you have to be meandering and slow a bit too at times to rev up and recharge, otherwise it doesn't make sense in terms of physics and weight/power balance & distribution. Some of the descriptions here are very meta and abstract but basically they work and are interesting, I feel.

28. @Smilex btw what's your type and what's up with the creepy avatar and persona

29. So Aristocrats are carnivores and plants, and Democrats are herbivores and detrivores. Lol

30. Another way of saying "democratic" and "free" is just "ratchet" lol.

31. @sbbds

You're right in so many ways. Also, you're hilarious. I can most definitely enjoy your presence on the forum despite the opposite quadra values. We're still members of the club and fellow noon aristocrats (ie. I'm ESTj). So I respect you for your words, composure and smarts to be able to digest even the crude and unfinished work that's going on in this thread.

As for the creepiness. Activity temperaments usually resonate on the level of emotions. When the other is feeling negative, this intensifies the same in the other. The relations are potentially the best, but also potentially the worst in how they feel. I'm not feeling well, I'm feeling negative. I'm transmitting that to the world and you're sensing it.

32. thank u

33. Midnight "Rebel Yell"

ENFp-ISTj-ISTp-ENFj

This tetarto
is defined by Limiting ethics in it's concrete form and its complement, liberating thinking also in the concrete form. Likewise its defined by Liberating intuition activity in its abstract form and its complement, limiting sensory, also in the abstract form.

1. Aristocratic
Aristocracy as a quality is easiest understood as a set of qualities that define how an individual must or may act. These qualities arise from plans, laws, debts, promises, contracts, permits and such. Everything done is so as to properly prepare for the accomplishment of a particular type of activity or to associate with and guide the activities of others. Since not everybody should be doing the same thing but rather there should be a division of labour, individuals fall into smaller categories and groups that define them. This limits the sphere of interest of individuals of this type. Aristocratic types may also be seen as dangerous and powerful due to their opinions likely leading to action. They may also be seen as brutish, uncivilized, unkind and not clever.

This tetarto cares little about the duties of aristocracy but rather about the licenses, permits, special dispensations and associated perks. Some individuals are allowed to do things, others aren't. But if you use the right, you may risk losing it. Therein lies the dilemma.

2. Obstinate (defined by limiting ethics and enabling thinking, both decreasing in this tetarto.
The element of intuition is negative and the element of sensory is positive in this tetarto. Lack of imagination, enjoyment from physical activity, willingness to turn every argument physical, inability to negotiate. Passion or coolness in conduct. Sports and competitivity are common, but focus is on games that carry an aspect of planning as the fear of physicality is growing. Once dominance is established, the game is often abandoned, unless of course forced.

3. Carefree (Defined by the qualities of liberating intuition and an limiting sensing, both increasing in this tetarto.)
All things will be made clear in time. Concepts are large and powerful, action is pointed, focused, limited. Little is happening so there's no danger for anyone, anywhere. Danger is laughed at and foolhardiness prevails. The quality of 'carefree' is defined by positivist thinking and and negativist ethics and thinking is the planning and intentions that precede action. This tetarto has the quality of 'What could possibly go wrong?"

The hot temperaments find themselves in endless arguments over poorly developed concepts fighting over what is right and what is wrong. Very little gets done in Midnight. The impossibility of getting their voices heard allows the cold temperaments time to focus on their own concerns and do what they want the way they want. As everything seems pointless, they find that things have exactly the worth they give it, motivating few, but creative and well-thought out physical creations.

"I am looking for a lot of men with an infinite capacity to not know what can't be done" The limits of capability are abstract but feared. This is the least spoken, most hidden part of this quadra. Things are allowed to proceed to physical completion only when no other alternatives exist.

"I want your everything as long as it's free". The hot temperaments of this type feel a passionate association to others and forcefully try to mobilize them. There's a deep negativity in the hot types and they need help in understanding how they relate to the world, how to deal with things. They experience the lack of activity painfully "In the midnight hour, she cried more more more".

The freely shown functions in this tetarto are intuitive and thinking. Abstract intellectualism and discussion are welcome as both properties fuel the true strength of this group, the abundance of concrete thinking, good preparation, good choices, good plans.

Small acts of kindness and overall sociable behaviour may be seen as uncouth, both because it's small scale and because it's seen as manipulative, trying to lead to bad choices.

34. Plants
ENFp-ISTj-INFp-ESTj

"Yes we can!"
The viergruppe defined by Creating concrete ethics and abstract accepting intuition complementing accepting concrete thinking and creating abstract sensory.

1. Aristocratic
Aristocracy as a quality is easiest understood as a set of qualities that define how an individual must or may act. These qualities arise from plans, laws, debts, promises, contracts, permits and such. Everything done is so as to properly prepare for the accomplishment of a particular type of activity or to associate with and guide the activities of others. Since not everybody should be doing the same thing but rather there should be a division of labour, individuals fall into smaller categories and groups that define them. This limits the sphere of interest of individuals of this type. Aristocratic types may also be seen as dangerous and powerful due to their opinions likely leading to action. They may also be seen as brutish, uncivilized, unkind and not clever.

The plants behaviour starts from small seeds, first almost invisible, but slowly they develop roots around them, leaves, growing, side by side, parallel with each other as if by a common design, each according to their inherent code, growing systematically. of roots underground, side by side, parallel, each according to their inherent code, growing systematically until it at some point, inevitably they bloom and show their colours. Emotionally, once commited to the process, there's not much except to wait and encourage this growth. But one can share the process, despairing or cherishing the growth as

2 Emotion-creating (Defined by accepting thinking and creating ethics, decreasing in this viergruppe)
As defined by process-sensory combined with result-intuition. Physical things are considered slowly and with great care whereas things of the imagination are approached hastily. As the importance is placed on the mundane, the achievement of this group is the powerful emotional response gained from the achievement. Conceptualization is unimportant, considered easy and trivial. People are evaluated based on ability to make a connection with others, social choices of quality and plans in quantity. As such this group thrives where the circumstances provide abundant support for intuitive and thinking spheres and scarcity for sensory and ethical. Plans of the circumstances are accepted.

3. Tactical (defined by the aspects of accepting intuition and creating sensory, increasing in this viergruppe)
Defined by process-thinking and results ethics. Basically this means slow planning and hasty assessment. In particular this quality exists in herbivores in the decreasing sense. Planning is in its early stages and unlikely to actually lead to anything but when done, it's done meticulously. The direct consequences of acts committed are thought of in a hasty manner and effects are achieved to an extent through iterations and variations of the same. There is a general feeling of 'this is the interim' or 'this is just a phase' or 'that wasn't the real me'.

"I've learned that I can pretty much do anything I've wanted to as long as I was methodical and diligent about it.
This group combines the slow stepwise controlled rational change of plans into actions with the sequential outbursts of rapid moody behaviour trying to find out how to relate to the slowly progressing events. As the process continues, more and more is at stake as the results start to come evident. The rational behaviour becomes more intense while the irrationals quiet down seeing that the moment is past, starting to take in the new balance. This group is about a slow evolution that creates a variety of experiences with the opportunity of experiencing this growth (or degeneration). The slowness of the process liberates the cold temperaments that get to fully enjoy the experience while the same slow pace pains the hot temperaments. As the process of rational progression gains pace, the system itself gains power and becomes self-important. The original meaningful idea lost. Simultaneously the irrational types feel more and more detached and distanced from their own goals as they are cut off from both the connection to the reason of the activity and unable to change the fait accompli.

"You hear that Mr. Anderson?... That is the sound of inevitability."
The sensory dimension is dominated by a methodical slow search for a final result, iteration by iteration. The first time this happens, it may seem that the future is doubtful, with experience, individuals learn that while it may take time, the end will come. The thematically constant, but everchanging process provides opportunity for the irrational romantics to go through many a prognosis of what will be the end result but their main contribution is to supply the emotional state powering the machine.

“Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.”
The slow progress of developments is enjoyable to the cold temperaments and frustrating for the hot ones. The activity partnerships that form the cores of this group work through the irrational type encouraging the irrational in their convictions, to proceed at the required pace. This group is defined by the enormous capacity to support and endure.

"If you build it, they will come"
As things are slow to develop, physical results are a waiting and the main resource is hopes and dreams, this group has good chances to lose their physical resource base. The cold temperaments may think the experience is worth it anyway. The cold temperaments tends to focus on saving through this rough period with hope of released stress when the project is finally done. This group is to an extent about learning and demonstrating ones learning.

The plant viergruppe succeeds in times of great conviction, when support for a good cause is available. Plants succeed in good weather. Individuals of this type are at risk of being scorned and ridiculed for they seem to promise so much more than they deliver but this obscures the fact that when the group does succeed, the success tends to be easy reproduce and as such grow to surprising heights. The genius in this group is the irrational individuals' ability to choose the right seeds to grow.

35. Detritivores.
ESFp-INTj-ISFp-ENTj.

"The die is cast"

As defined by the functions:
Accepting concrete sensory and creating abstract ethics complementing creating concrete intuition and abstract accepting thinking

1. Democratic
The easiest way to understand the democratic groups is as "What comes after?" The event, the action has happened and is plain to see for everyone. The evidence is on the table. Everything is clear. The stress of causing things to happen is gone and what remains is afterglow and regret. This lack of stress is sensed by society as democratic freedoms. Democratic discussions are far removed from causing practical consequences and as such they are non-threatening. Because of this they can also be seen as annoying and pointless. What action continues to happen is removed from its reasons. It continues to happen largely out of momentum and the activity continues to change into a form that's focused on the artistic, emotional or social aspect of the activity.

2. Strategic (
defined by the aspects of accepting sensory and creating intuition, decreasing in this viergruppe)
Defined by process-ethics and results thinking. Basically this means slow assessment and hasty planning.
Planning is in its early stages and unlikely to actually lead to anything, also it's haphazard, done to an extent as excuse to have it be done. The direct consequences of acts committed are considered meticulously, step by step. There is a general feeling of 'this is the big one' or 'this is what it is all about' or 'this defines me'.

3 Emotion-creating (Defined by accepting thinking and creating ethics, increasing in this viergruppe)
As defined by process-sensory combined with result-intuition. Physical things are considered slowly and with great care whereas things of the imagination are approached hastily. As the importance is placed on the mundane, the achievement of this group is the powerful emotional response gained from the achievement. Conceptualization is unimportant, considered easy and trivial. People are evaluated based on ability to make a connection with others, social choices of quality and plans in quantity. As such this group thrives where the circumstances provide abundant support for intuitive and thinking spheres and scarcity for sensory and ethical. Plans of the circumstances are accepted.

This group is in the physical realm defined by slow, meandering activity that progresses towards a sense of satisfaction combined with rapid throwing of ideas resulting from the variability of available stimulus. There's a sense of weak ability to cause things to happen and a feeling of low self-importance, decreasing contact to what is considered important, a loss of the perceived self and a rise of speculation. A focus on experimentation in the sense that this group lays the groundwork for learning and civilization. The decrease of self-importance allows for greater sociability which excites the hot temperaments but simultaneously crushes the cold temperaments. Low self-respect, and lack of class may be thrown around about this group as they lack may seem to lack finesse.

"
How you spend your energy is ultimately what creates who you are."
This viergruppe can be understood to start from a place of emptiness, a world of detritus. Ideals are powerful, the world is already conquered, everything is done, but now one must live. This is the base floor for civilization.

"The only way we will survive is by being kind."
Humane behaviour is not a simple thing or taken lightly. This group takes as self-evident that things can be achieved, there's nothing that's too large. The question is more, what should be strived for. Yet this group does not operate by force, by using clever moves, trickery or such. The product functions of this group are intuition and ethics. These are what are worth striving for. As a group they pursue humanist ideals.

"I don't believe in elitism. I don't think the audience is this dumb person lower than me.
Democratic ideals combined with willingness to start from the basics gives this group wide reach when speaking to the masses. In their actions kind, in their words, wise, rational and idealistic. These people are often looked up to exactly because they 'stoop so low'. Yet symbolic power and willingness to challenge power while being idealistic, haphazard in planning and believing in democratic ideals often leaves these individuals hurt, unless the setting is already empty of people of ill will.

36. Carnivores

"By any means necessary"

ESTp-INFj-ISTp-ENFj.
This viergruppe is defined by Creative concrete thinking and accepting abstract sensory complementing accepting concrete ethics and creating abstract intuition

1. Aristocratic
Aristocracy as a quality is easiest understood as a set of qualities that define how an individual must or may act. These qualities arise from plans, laws, debts, promises, contracts, permits and such. Everything done is so as to properly prepare for the accomplishment of a particular type of activity or to associate with and guide the activities of others. Since not everybody should be doing the same thing but rather there should be a division of labour, individuals fall into smaller categories and groups that define them. This limits the sphere of interest of individuals of this type. Aristocratic types may also be seen as dangerous and powerful due to their opinions likely leading to action. They may also be seen as brutish, uncivilized, unkind and not clever.

2 Creation-creating (Defined by accepting ethics and creating thinking, decreasing in this viergruppe)
As defined by process-intuition combined with result-sensory. Abstract things are considered slowly and with great care whereas physical things are approached hastily. As the importance is placed on concepts, the achievement of this group is the powerful plan, or ideal. The execution is unimportant, considered easy and trivial. People are evaluated based on ability to produce plans of quality and emotions of quantity. As such this group thrives where the circumstances provide abundant support for sensory and ethical spheres and scarcity for intuition and thinking. Emotions of the circumstances are accepted.

3. Strategic (
defined by the aspects of accepting sensory and creating intuition, increasing in this viergruppe)
Defined by process-ethics and results thinking. Basically this means slow assessment and hasty planning.
Planning is in its early stages and unlikely to actually lead to anything, also it's haphazard, done to an extent as excuse to have it be done. The direct consequences of acts committed are considered meticulously, step by step. There is a general feeling of 'this is the big one' or 'this is what it is all about' or 'this defines me'.

"
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."
The group combines the irrational process of proceeding into action, well thought out but hasty and variable in the execution with the strong emotional connection of the rationals that slowly dissipates into detachment, witnessing the random results. As all types start with great conviction and the physical activity is random and unpredictable this group has a great likelyhood of causing pain, both emotional and physical. While significant and surprising positives are also created, people have a tendency of assessing the risk of loss greater than the possibility of gain. The decrease of social relations gives more importance to what is viewed as important by the individuals themselves. The individual's particularities are strongly shown in this group and as such the likelihood of forming small subgroups is significant.

“Love me or hate me I promise that it will never make or break me...<3”
Even when kind, the individuals in this group are aim to play hard. This group as a whole has the accepting functions of sensory and ethics, when "just acting natural" but what they aim for, their conceived results are intuition and thinking, the functions of the researchers. While they of neither club they sort of act as if they were socials trying to be researchers. They accept supervision in relations through their sensory and ethical spheres, they supervise in the areas of intuition and research.

"Ultimately, when your day's up, you've got to be okay with that. You've got to feel good about what you've done."
There's a feeling of 'getting ready for the big one' in this group, of getting ready for oblivion. Living life as each day defined you for the rest of eternity. Ethics, what comes after the act, is considered a slow process, so there's going to be a long time to think what you've done. So better do something worth thinking about.

"I began instinctively to feel that there was something lacking, even in my own home, some false conception of a family relations, some incomplete ideal"
Action comes fast, but ideas come slow, in due process for this viergruppe. While in progress the development of these ideas may seem weak, futile, erratic or pointless, but as these ideas develop slowly, they gain power.

37. Finally some good socionics again

38. You need to give a refresh regarding your dynamic temperament-based view on socionics otherwise for some people it may be hard to follow your take on reinin dichotomies. There's people here that still think the only difference between an ISFj and INTj is functional order.

39. Originally Posted by Smilex
"According to our hypotheses, the elements are aligned with the meridians of IM as follows:

- Posterior median meridian;
- The meridians of the stomach and pancreas;
- The meridians of the bladder and kidneys;
- The meridians of the gallbladder and liver;
- The front middle meridian;
- The meridian of the heart and small intestine;
- Pericardium meridian and three parts of the body;
- The meridians of the lungs and colon.

Our observations confirm this hypothesis. For example, the logical extraverts and indeed often suffer from heart, and ethical extroverts - the kidneys, and intuitive extravert - stomach, pancreas, liver."
It goes to show that their entire approach has been wrong.

You're not supposed to have an observation "confirm" the hypothesis, because then an observation will eventually confirm anything. If you look for something hard enough, then you're eventually going to find it. That's why you instead predict something, and then you try to see if that prediction is true or not. That's what a scientific experiment is.

And you also shouldn't just throw random predictions. Anyone can throw random predictions enough times that it would eventually hit a jackpot. But that doesn't really tell us anything or enlighten us with anything, other than that you perhaps got lucky with the prediction. So you should also explain why that prediction should come true.

If it claims to "predict" things, like ITR, then it says that an observation will eventually fit into a description. But that's like saying that you will "predict" that a dice will eventually roll a 6, if you throw it enough times. But you're ignoring all the other times that it has not rolled a 6. In the same way, you can "predict" that you will eventually observe a Duality getting along, while you're ignoring all the other observations where they do not get along.

Either way, you can't explain why.

40. Originally Posted by Singu
It goes to show that their entire approach has been wrong.

You're not supposed to have an observation "confirm" the hypothesis, because then an observation will eventually confirm anything. If you look for something hard enough, then you're eventually going to find it. That's why you instead predict something, and then you try to see if that prediction is true or not. That's what a scientific experiment is.

And you also shouldn't just throw random predictions. Anyone can throw random predictions enough times that it would eventually hit a jackpot. But that doesn't really tell us anything or enlighten us with anything, other than that you perhaps got lucky with the prediction. So you should also explain why that prediction should come true.

If it claims to "predict" things, like ITR, then it says that an observation will eventually fit into a description. But that's like saying that you will "predict" that a dice will eventually roll a 6, if you throw it enough times. But you're ignoring all the other times that it has not rolled a 6. In the same way, you can "predict" that you will eventually observe a Duality getting along, while you're ignoring all the other observations where they do not get along.

Either way, you can't explain why.
I agree with you.

And I'm going to continue by saying a couple of other things that relate to Aushra's work and scientific principles.

At least in medicine, when you observe a phenomenon, you want to separate groups of subjects and test them against each other. This is something you kind of have to do to discuss a phenomenon. And when creating these test groups, you kind of want a clear separation to get good results, so what you do is you ignore the subjects that don't clearly belong in any of the groups that you're discussing or that have anomalies. This is what you do to be able to continue.

So, if socionics types didn't exist, you would still be inclined to imagine them as a mental construct so as to be able to have a discussion about the phenomenon. This is how science works, even hard science.

Let's have a hard science example. As of right now, in the pubmed data base there are 36422 articles discussing migraines. We know a lot about migraines. Yet we don't know what a migraine is, the condition lacks a clear definition and it's even unclear whether it's a single thing or a group of things that have nothing to do with each other. Yet we continue to use the terminology because it's convenient.

It's a mistake to believe that Aushra's original work is based on a lot of proof or evidence. By it's nature it is highly speculative, pushing the boundaries of science. The same revolutionary nature which makes it wonderful makes it weak. She was, as ENTps do, pushing it. She's introducing new concepts and kind of playing with them to show how they possibly might work. She's not a practical type, what does she care about how these things relate to real life.

Aushra lacked the concepts of subtypes, partially because to introduce the original work, subtypes are inconvenient. It's easier to introduce one thing first and later add to it with newer concepts. ENTps are a process type, so typical for her would have been to proceed in steps, rather than to aim to introduce everything at once. ENTps tend to consider their work as progress towards something, not attempting to enshrine their work as the permanent new state of thought. Frankly I think Aushra would be not just honoured, but also kind of appalled of the idea that socionics stops at her work.

Anyway, back to the critical issue... The Model A hypothesis is a mental construct not meant to correlate to a physically existing phenomenon, it's a mind exercise. It fails when there's individuals of extreme subtype characteristics, like Adam displays in this thread. The same goes for a lot of socionics in general. To understand the phenomenon, you have to have a mental construct. But if the mental construct is deficient, you have to rework it to be able to discuss the parts of the phenomenon which the first construct ignores. That's what happens with science.

The most obvious failure of model A is of course the subtypes, and everything that correlates with ignoring these huge issue. For example the idea that the 1st function is automatically the strongest one, or that people are always looking for complements primarily based on the 1st function. But this bordering of digressing from the main issue of the message so I'll just stop.

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