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    FarDraft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    I still think LII>ILI. You already know my opinion so I will make this short and focus on things that interested me and no one commented on.

    Your comments regarding what you need help with seems Fe seeking, or at least you seem to value Fe. Confidence, morale boosting, yelling, etc. I also remember you saying that you like public speaking and how much you engage in it. According to DarkAngelFireWolf69, LII has trainable ethics, while ILI has trainable sensing.

    You said you get annoyed by false bravery, impulsive and reckless behavior. That doesn't sound like Se-valuing to me.

    I think you are right to consider Gamma. I know I do sometimes. But it's hard for me to see myself as ILI, I did consider LIE. I actually get typed ENTJ in MBTI sometimes. I relate to the business and ambitious side of Gamma a lot. I do think quadra values are important in the overall picture, but when you are considering two types that have similar strengths focusing on valued functions doesn't make sense, especially when those functions are strong in both types.

    The only thing I can add here is the fact that both Gamma and Alpha are democratic and individualistic quadras. So I have an appreciation for a lot of Gamma values that are not readily apparent.

    I know why you think the ignoring function is confusing and I've seen people do the same mistake. You have to remember Model A is a mental model. The ignoring function is also called the observing or limiting function. The thing to take away from that, is a person who has a Te ignoring function doesn't accept inputs from other people in that form, or does it reluctantly and in small amounts.

    They will however use the function themselves and apply a different approach, usually in tandem with Ti. Gulneko mentions an example of that but he attributes it to static vs dynamic. He says ILIs have better memory and command of facts, and they have an associative memory. While LIIs incorporate facts in a scheme or system of some sort, a Kinesthetic memory. LIIs can resist information that doesn't coincide with their understanding.

    So the ignoring function is strong and a person will usually use it a lot to support their base function. They are two sides of the same coin. The ignoring function is just much more conservative in terms of accepting outside input. That is how I see it.

    For reference: DarkAngelFireWolf69 made a video about LII vs ILI
    Thanks for the further comments. Most of what you've written makes sense to me but three things don't. First, morale-boosting, confidence, yelling, etc. seems more like Se DS rather than Fe. I thought alpha SFs would be more sympathetic or comforting. Second, disliking reckless behaviour seems common for both ILI and LII. In fact, many descriptions talk about how the ILI consistently demands prudence from others because he finds that most actions lack sufficient foresight. This is the main reason why he's "the skeptic/critic", in the first place. Third, you say "when you are considering two types that have similar strengths focusing on valued functions doesn't make sense, especially when those functions are strong in both types." However, this seems to me like exactly what you should do since both types are strong in the same functions and so the difference in value is what sets them a part. For example, while both ILI and LII have 4D Ti, meaning that understanding logical systems should come with less difficulty for both, LIIs use Ti has their main means of processing information whereas ILIs don't. The difference in value distinguishes the two types.

    The way I use Te is as a tool for problem solving. I learn information I think to be useful to solve a problem and then I apply it. Oftentimes, this means that I initially don't have a firm understanding of where the information comes from, but I tend to investigate that on my own time, so that I can generalize the information to other situations (with precision kept in mind, of course). That, to me, sounds like Te serving Ti, which indicates LII. However, I've read the reddit summary of a video DarkAngelFireWolf69 made with Ben Vaserlan on the differences between ILI and LII, and it says that an ILI is focused on problem solving whereas an LII is focused on theory-building. If that's the case, then I have no doubt about being ILI since theory-building is secondary to me in nearly all respects. Moreover, my very first "type me" thread (since deleted, but I've saved a copy) was asking about where associative memories fit into the theory of socionics since I had realized that my memory is very associative. That coincidence provides evidence for ILI as well.

    Since model G is trying to reconcile MBTI with socionics (with INTJ = ILI and INTP = LII; DarkAngelFireWolf69 makes this clear in the model G type diagrams), it would only make sense for me to type ILI in model G since I relate to INTJ more so than INTP in MBTI. However, that system isn't model A, and so I don't think my TIM should be based on it.

    The case for LII has been made very clear to me at this point by you and others. Thanks for that. My next source of theoretical investigation lies in the id block since that seems to be where a lot of my confusion lies, as you noted about the ignoring function. Practically speaking, I'll probably wait to type myself since I haven't met enough SEEs or ESEs to type myself on the basis of IR. That would be a very important factor to consider. If I do type myself ILI, I'd have to be an unusually rational one, which is what leads me to doubt the typing in the first place. To justify that, I'd probably have to apply DCNH, being the normalizing subtype, and I have no clue how reliable that theory is.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-27-2019 at 08:54 PM.
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