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Thread: The Ant and The Grasshopper - Alpha vs Gamma philosophy? Conflict theme?

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    FarDraft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Thanks for clarifying. I keep looking for those diagrams and never seem to find them when I want them. I should probably bookmark things more. If you can find it that would be cool.
    Here's the thread that Ben Vaserlan started containing most of the model G diagrams. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...VICTOR-DarkAngelFireWolf69

    I have lived with ILI for more than half of my life. I remember well the hate an ILI-Ni sub had toward others although he could be polite and quiet in social situations if he was unfamiliar with people. Some people thought he was rude or thought himself above the group. If someone left a strong negative impression on him he did not let that go. He had a hit list of people to kill if he were given short time to live. I took it about half serious. Sometimes I wondered though. I don't think he had it in him but just the fact he had one at all says a lot. It was not something he dwelled on for ages. It would be stored away and only remembered if he saw the person again.

    The ILI-Te would lean toward being very rational when it came to this stuff. Not socionics rationality just plain rational and practical (I guess?). He was not one to contemplate things for hours like the Ni sub. At least not visibly but he had kids to deal with. He was more outspoken around strangers and would give his opinion even around new people. He debated my mom's priest on their religion once. lol He was not an atheist but he was agnostic. In a way he could be the friendlier one (life experience perhaps) but also the one to tell you faster if he thought you were being illogical or you could not provide proof.

    Both of them could be negative and when they were angry (not frequent but most common visible emotion.) it eventually would leave me shaking inside. Maybe the worst part is I had to repress Fe (in a playful way when they were mad and in general) in order to get along with both better. The cool thing is I had never heard of socionics before so I figured out what worked with them on my own. Sometimes I would fall back on Fi ways to make them stop stressing others out when they were angry. Keep in mind these weren't casual relationships. Both leaned toward skepticism (toward theories and philosophies they didn't agree with) and pessimism (toward humanity, I think). It was even more pronounced in the Ni sub when he was depressed (which he wouldn't admit to because I don't think he even knew).

    I am aware this is mostly describing behaviors. :/
    While I agree with you at the high level, it seems like that Ni sub ILI had some health problems, though it does depend on the age. If he was like this in older age, then he'd probably been miserable. That's not an intrinsic trait of any personality type, no matter how negativist. I think it's possible to reach a level of satisfaction despite one's proclivity to see the down side in anything - it comes down to not giving a shit. When I was younger, people I would now type as ILI-Ni were definitely more vengeful than I was. Their heightened emotionality and ability to see the negative in anything made it hard for them to put aside their petulance. Even now, I tend to brush most things off or make a joke about it, though I never forget my encounters with people. I'm judgmental and critical, but it's an inward thing, and it's rarely emotionally bound - more like noticing how useless these people would be in different circumstances. I'm generally indifferent to how other's live their lives since it is of no concern to me. It only matters if that person is close to me, and even then it depends on the person. Some people have a better handle on their lives than others, and making that distinction is important. Remembering those encounters is more a means of self-preservation, so I can "know who's untrustworthy".

    The one thing I find most hypocritical about the ILI nature is that they hate passion with a passion. It's impossible to beat on a wall with a hammer without using force, yet the ILI's predilection for skepticism and criticism tries to do so without spreading the dent. It's focused yet broad. The criticisms are detailed, yet you can see a hidden agenda. It's not the topic but the person they hate, and that requires passion. They're often taking sides, not even realizing it, attempting to speak in a nuanced matter which clouds the issue. To see things clearly means to recognize your own assumptions and to establish a hierarchy of information. It's about deriving reasonable abstractions through an understanding of the details. These are supposed to be an ILIs strengths, and it often is. However, sometimes, the lack of logic in an ILI can be profound and devastating. It can allow them to generate depth but at a cost of the common sense they should be naturally strong at. It's hypocritical, yet many immature ones don't notice. Perhaps I'm one of them, outside this conversation at least.

    Control over emotions is most important to me, not a complete denial of them. I have no desire to express my emotions, but I too have no desire to assume they don't exist since I'd only be fooling myself. It's silly to deny your own humanity.


    I don't think "sadness" is an inherently negative emotion. It can be beautiful. It is how we grieve and remember our losses. Hate on the other hand is pretty much a negative emotion no matter how it is justified. Do you agree with that at all?
    I don't really like the categorizations of emotions as positive or negative, though I use it out of simplicity. There are times for any and all emotions, both for a personal and utilitarian reason. You highlighted the benefit of sadness since it's intrinsically linked to empathy, but it's also linked to envy, in that failure to see one's own potential creates a longing to be someone else. 4s face this a lot. Hatred, I think, can be useful. It's an internal, visceral response to physical or nonphysical impugning information. To act on such responses would be, in general, foolish since it, by definition, requires you to abstract away the specifics of the stimulus. However, it serves to protect - a self-preservatory response that prevents you from being manipulated in a cruel world. It serves as a carnal form of common sense, in a way. However, it can blind one from seeing the reality of things, as I talked about before. That leads to irredeemable actions on the part of ignorant or stupid individuals, which we'd rather not have.



    I had this article open from a couple days ago. In socionics rational is J and irrational is P.

    I think that blog post is relevant to this thread somehow. Theoretically speaking, I can see how ILI are P (irrationals) even with the rational subtype. The descriptive characteristics by Reinin seem off to me though. Especially if there is a such thing as subtype or DCNH. Now I can close that window.
    He seems to suggest that rationality is the means to put into conscious perception whereas irrationality is the opposite. Irrationality has no desire to frame but rather to just perceive. An ILIs base means of viewing the world is just that - perception. Specifically, perception of processes over time and associating imagery to those processes. Subtypes serve to differentiate the focuses by which the ILI makes sense of that perception. While it doesn't change the functions or how they're used, it changes the emphasis placed on some functions over others but only in service of the program. I think this model makes the most sense.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-17-2019 at 12:50 AM. Reason: Fixed quote
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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