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Thread: LII v. EII (INTJ ~ INFJ)

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Question LII v. EII (INTJ ~ INFJ)

    What are the strong, manifestly observable differences between LII and EII??

    The profiles that are out there seem vaguely interchangeable to me. Arguments can be made for EII overanalyzing too much, and LII being a perfectionist and so on.

    What are some clear ways you can distinguish between the two, especially overlooking nuances that could be associated with gender instead?
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    I find quite hard to mix them.

    Deltas are very earthy people and thus they drive towards it in every way possible. This is very explicit in their speech.Their idealism is also very pragmatic in common but bit more fluffy when considering individuals. This is more apparent in EII than in IEE.

    When contrasting LII's and EII's EII's are not the ones who will hold a fixed view but may exhibit stubbornness in more singular directions than in holistic ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.

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    Differences between LII (INTj) and EII (INFj)


    1. INFjs are more likely to believe in objective truths than INTjs. That is, INFjs are more likely to believe there is a correct or best way of doing something than INTjs.

    2. INFjs are often better at solving and minimizing interpersonal problems, where as INTjs often struggle understanding them.

    3. INFjs place greater value on their resources than INTjs. For INFjs, resources like their money, time, sleep, etc., fall into their "inner personal space," and the INFjs will be more likely to deprioritize an interest if it starts to drain these resources too much.

    4. INTjs place greater value on their interests than INFjs. For example, INTjs will maintain high levels of energy and focus on an interest they value, even deprioritizing their other resources to maintain the interest. For example, INTjs may spend a large amount of energy on an interest they value, often to the detriment of their time, sleep, relationships, money, etc.

    5. When conversing, INFjs types are inclined to communicate in the form of monologues, where each party has "its turn." Because of that they subconsciously attempt to transform a dialogue into a series of monologues. Conversely, INTjs tend to prefer more of a question and answer style format.

    6. INTjs are more likely than INFjs to perceive and distinguish themselves primarily through personal qualities. INTjs focus on individualism more than INFjs.

    7. INFjs are not as inclined to compare and verify concepts as INTjs. INFjs assume that these can have only one unique interpretation (the "correct" interpretation), and INFjs often do not think about the fact that the other person may be interpreting them differently. Much more than INTjs, INFjs apply concepts such as "objective reality," "unequivocal facts," and de-emphasize concepts; INFjs consider that they know the "right" way of doing things, how something "truly is," etc.

    8. INFjs are often able to form quicker opinions of others they have just met than INTjs. This is based on the ability of INFjs to draw conclusions about the person based on the groups the person belongs to; INTjs are more reluctant to make these inferences.

    9. INFjs are more likely than INTjs to use "emotional anchors" that resonate with their internal emotional condition. These emotional anchors could be a book, a movie, a place, a song, etc. INFjs use these anchors to strengthen their inner emotional state and thus will repeat the experience: e.g., re-reading a book, re-watching a movie, continually going back to a place to experience the emotions associated with it.

    10. INFjs, more than INTjs, frequently perceives and defines themselves and other people through group associations. INFjs focus on collectivism over individualism.

    11. When working on a project, INTjs experience more discomfort (than INFjs) if the project does not have a clearly delineated end-goal or result. This happens because INTjs have more difficulty monitoring and understanding how the project is developing than INFjs because they are outside of the process.

    12. When assessing an option or available choice, INFjs tend to focus more on how the choice could benefit them (what it would potentially yield) than INTjs would. On the other hand, INTjs would be more cognizant of the potential risks and potential losses that may accompany the decision that INFjs may unconsciously minimize.

    13. INFjs tend to internally combine emotional exchanges with other activities rather than separating them out like INTjs. E.g., INFjs see having fun occurring simultaneously with other activities, such as work or even serious affairs. INTjs are more likely to internally separate out having fun with other activities, although the two can be interchanged at a high frequency.

    14. INTjs are more inclined to believe there are relative truths than INFjs. That is, this relativity is perceived by INTjs as an extenuation of the differing beliefs, opinions, intentions, etc. of each person.

    15. INTjs are more likely to make decisions based on logical reasons than INFjs, who are more likely to make decisions based on their own feelings.

    16. INFjs are more likely (than INTjs) to use special rituals or other culturally accepted formalities when forming relationships with others. What that means is that the emotional proximity and relationship status for INFjs be more externally predetermined. Additionally, INFjs generally progress in relationships through stages, and therefore are more familiar with these stages than INTjs. INFjs tend to be more linear in their relationship progression than INTjs, and INFjs assign importance to the formalities of recognizing the start and end to each of these stages.

    17. INTjs are often more interested in studying systems, structures, and functionality than INFjs.

    18. INTjs are relatively better at assessing the emotional atmosphere occurring in a group or during an activity than INFjs.

    19. When meeting someone knew, INTjs are not as likely as INFjs to perceive "getting to know somebody" as a special kind of activity. INTjs know very well whey they are getting acquainted (i.e., what the purpose of the relationship is, be it business, personal, travel, etc.). INTjs, in contrast with INFjs, do not divide the process of getting acquainted into consecutive stages; rather INTjs immediately establish the necessary emotional distance in contact and can regulate it if needed. To bridge the gap between poorly acquainted people in a group INTjs amp up the emotional tone; this can be mutually experienced happiness or misfortune. The name and title of the person are of secondary relevance to INTjs and their relationship with the other person.

    20. When INFjs form opinions of others, these opinions are formed under the influence of their attitude towards the group to which the person belongs. To INFjs, it is incomprehensible how it is possible to belong to two opposing groups at the same time:, i.e., "you're either with us, or with them and against us."

    21. INFjs tend to prefer using persuasion as a means of convincing others to do something, where as INTjs prefer to use argumentation as a means of convincing others.

    22. INTjs pay more particular attention to aspects of a situation or plan that are insufficient or lacking. This can be interpreted by others as INTjs having a negative assessment of various situations and events (.e.g, "the glass is half empty). On the other hand, INFjs pay more attention to what is actually present in a situation, and this can be interpreted as an affirmative or positive manifestation of the surrounding world, situations, possibilities, and prospects (e.g. "the glass is half full").

    23. When developing a plan of action or process, INFjs tend to see themselves as "within the process"; they are immersed in it. Often because of this, they have more difficulty managing several plans at once. On the other hand, INTjs tend to place themselves "outside of the process"; they dissociate from it. For them the process or situation is something external from themselves.

    24. When something is perceived by INFjs as being incorrect, they are more likely (than INTjs) to tell the person who made the error what they did wrong and how to do it the right way. INFjs are focused on who made the error and helping them to correct the mistake.

    25. INTjs are more likely (than INFjs) to seek new and novel experiences rather than returning to something already lived through. They will generally only re-read a book, re-watch a movie, or revisit the same place if they have forgotten it or are hoping to learn something new from it.

    26. INFjs are more vulnerable to logical manipulation than INTjs. However INTjs in contrast, are often more vulnerable to emotional or ethical manipulations than INFjs.

    27. The "comparison and verification of concepts" is a more common phenomenon among INTjs than INFjs. This comparison not only concerns INTjs methods, but also their understanding, terminology, etc. INTjs are attuned to the fact that different people might understand and interpret different concepts and terms differently. They perceive terminology as well as actions of other people as part of the subjective concept inseparable from personal opinion, position, intent, etc. In contrast to INFjs who perceive terminology as "objective," INTjs understand personal differences behind terminology (this applies even to well established terms) and they attempt to compare and verify them.

    28. When something is perceived by INTjs as being incorrect, they are more likely (than INFjs) to ask why it was done that way. Instead of necessarily trying to correct the person who made the error, INTjs attempt to understand the person's reason for their decision/action.

    29. INTjs attitude towards a specific person (more so than INFjs) is based on their personal characteristics (authority, intellect, personal achievements, etc.) INTjs recognize superiority of certain individuals drawing from their personal qualities
    https://www.sociotype.com/tools/type-comparison/LII-EII

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    That one on number 7 always triggers me because I think both approaches can exist depending on your level of analysis. But taken at face value asserting that your way of seeing things is the only way of seeing things seems impossibly dense to me.

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    LIIs value Fe and EIIs don't. So LIIs are more likely to "loosen up" and participate in a lighthearted atmosphere.

    EIIs think a lot more about their relationships and the people around them. They're better at being sensitive to other's feelings. They may focus a lot on work-related tasks but they also find them inherently stressful and ask for help more unlike LIIs.

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    عالم نفسي thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Ugh, this is based on Reinin dichotomies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Ugh, this is based on Reinin dichotomies.
    Yes, I am being a heretic.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    I’m serious type. I think about and am concerned for the serious matters in life. LII still like emotional varied environment. My LII friend posted this on his Facebook “Cheers happy venereal disease day” while matters of sexuality I view as serious holy almost difficult to talk about and instead I speak about love. Still he speaks about love too but he finds a lot more to laugh about than I do. He can be very much like ESE in his intensity of expression on a rare occasion “loud, intense”
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    What are the strong, manifestly observable differences between LII and EII??

    The profiles that are out there seem vaguely interchangeable to me. Arguments can be made for EII overanalyzing too much, and LII being a perfectionist and so on.

    What are some clear ways you can distinguish between the two, especially overlooking nuances that could be associated with gender instead?
    EIIs are softer, more concerned with feelings and morality

    LII are more lone wolf deep system thinker types

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    I wonder if deltas are fans of Monty Python's Flying Circus. That could be a real clarifier.

    Personally, I am a fan. @Beautiful sky, what do you think of Bjork and Monty Python? Are you a fan or are these artistic forms of expression too out there for you??
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    EIIs are softer, more concerned with feelings and morality

    LII are more lone wolf deep system thinker types
    I feel like I am both.

    I like the idea of being EII more. But then I recall a manager I had for two years. She looked like Mike Tyson. She acted like a guardian angel toward me, as my physical energy was kind of low for the job and she filled in the gaps for me with vigor and strength and would assure me everything was done, time and time again. So maybe SLE is my Supervisor and SEE my conflictor.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    base T types are cold, technically interested
    base F - the opposite
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    I wonder if deltas are fans of Monty Python's Flying Circus. That could be a real clarifier.

    Personally, I am a fan. @Beautiful sky, what do you think of Bjork and Monty Python? Are you a fan or are these artistic forms of expression too out there for you??
    I would say they are too out there for me
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Thomas Sowell vs Luciano Floridi

    Stern vs Cold (autistic)
    //In a superficial way as both are Balanced Stable in temperament, both types - especially their masculine representatives, are composed "serious" and seem to have it together with a direction and chosen orient towards life.

    INFJ are stern, ideological on matters of principle, especially the more traditionally masculine representatives who become seers for their community.

    INTJ by contrast are cold-autistic nominally as opposed to serious, taking things as a matter-of-fact

    Collectivist vs Individualist
    (generally ideological "group" worldview vs generally individualist)
    *gets a bit tricky considering Sowell is a libertarian, nevertheless his ideology is a blue print for the collective as opposed to embracing chaotic, incoherent individualism as is the justification with individualist libertarians - Luciano isn't a libertarian BTW.

    Individualists are less interested in a overarching worldview looking at things peripherally, more concerned with looking at the world as is - predominantly. That's the more dispassionate scientist in general (by the way all types do science even SFs, the supposedly least interested as evident in Neil DeGrasse Tyson ESE)

    Pseudo-caregiver vs infantile
    if you know them personally this will become evident, Pseudo-caregiver has a habit of teaching and coaching their partner whilst the infantile does not being sort of manipulated and lead by their caregiver. Feminine LSE women are more matter of fact dutiful dealing with more pragmatic matters in care and attentiveness, whilst Feminine ESE jazz it up with more flare and unorthodox attentiveness to their partner.
    Last edited by Soupman; 03-03-2019 at 07:46 PM.

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    Hydraulic presses do not interact ApeironStella's Avatar
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    I think main difference really comes in Fi/Fe valuing and how this shows up in their life-

    For example, an EII friend in my friend group at uni really doesn't like it when the atmosphere becomes too "childish/emotively emotionally charged". Sometimes IEI friend and I will be just making weird faces at each other, or making random noises to laugh over them, while she would seem fairly uncomfortable with the attitude and stay away a bit instead of joining in. She also tends to have a... heavier, more melancholic vibe to her, and while I'm not the most social butterfly (far from it) I tend to be known more as cheerful/a lot more emotive when I actually get out of my head and actually look at what is going on around me.

    ESI friend and her tend to talk a lot about other classmates' lives and about interactions they had with others from the uni, or if they have a love interest on someone, the mood is generally a lot more subdued as they talk, though some laughter either from ESI friend making a blunt, unexpected comment or a joke at EII's expense comes up. When they talk about others, 60% of the time I have no clue who they are even talking about, as now I'm realizing that I don't even know the names of half of the class, whoops.

    From distance, we both come off as not exactly the most social ones and tend to interact with people if other side initiates contact first, but once the contact actually develops, the difference is usually that she is actually interested in details of others' lives/somehow ends up actually involved in others' lives, while I tend to stay peripheral aside from common interest talks and when I find a common interest, people do say that I suddenly light up, while her demeanor is more stable. Even when I try to be more considerate of others and actually try to show an interest in someone's life, I end up worrying that I might end up asking too personal questions and don't want to have a misstep by assuming I'm close to someone or that they even want to become someone that is a part of my life, while her contact with others is a lot more fluid and has her actually getting to know them, while I either get bored with such topics or again, feel worried to ask too many questions on the personal life (or even forget that I should be asking those at least out of courtesy when I get too hyped about a common interest).

    We both have an interest in art/literature, though her main interest lies in more tragic real life influenced stories, a more grounded in reality and people approach to it (with 4w5 sp first morbidness and interest in especially death related music/art/stories) that are more personal to her that she doesn't share as openly, though it can get quite image heavy and generally emotionally heavy, while I tend to try to find someone to share my thoughts and feelings on anything that gets me emotionally stimulated and want to bounce off thoughts with someone, a need/desire to share that experience with someone and tend to skirt around as heavy topics. (my 9ness might be rubbing off on that, though.)

    That's all anectdotal though, but didn't want to give a complete cookie-cutter copy paste on the matter, so welp.

    ...Why?
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    Why did his eyes look so sad?



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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApeironStella View Post
    I think main difference really comes in Fi/Fe valuing and how this shows up in their life-

    For example, an EII friend in my friend group at uni really doesn't like it when the atmosphere becomes too "childish/emotively emotionally charged". Sometimes IEI friend and I will be just making weird faces at each other, or making random noises to laugh over them, while she would seem fairly uncomfortable with the attitude and stay away a bit instead of joining in. She also tends to have a... heavier, more melancholic vibe to her, and while I'm not the most social butterfly (far from it) I tend to be known more as cheerful/a lot more emotive when I actually get out of my head and actually look at what is going on around me.

    ESI friend and her tend to talk a lot about other classmates' lives and about interactions they had with others from the uni, or if they have a love interest on someone, the mood is generally a lot more subdued as they talk, though some laughter either from ESI friend making a blunt, unexpected comment or a joke at EII's expense comes up. When they talk about others, 60% of the time I have no clue who they are even talking about, as now I'm realizing that I don't even know the names of half of the class, whoops.

    From distance, we both come off as not exactly the most social ones and tend to interact with people if other side initiates contact first, but once the contact actually develops, the difference is usually that she is actually interested in details of others' lives/somehow ends up actually involved in others' lives, while I tend to stay peripheral aside from common interest talks and when I find a common interest, people do say that I suddenly light up, while her demeanor is more stable. Even when I try to be more considerate of others and actually try to show an interest in someone's life, I end up worrying that I might end up asking too personal questions and don't want to have a misstep by assuming I'm close to someone or that they even want to become someone that is a part of my life, while her contact with others is a lot more fluid and has her actually getting to know them, while I either get bored with such topics or again, feel worried to ask too many questions on the personal life (or even forget that I should be asking those at least out of courtesy when I get too hyped about a common interest).

    We both have an interest in art/literature, though her main interest lies in more tragic real life influenced stories, a more grounded in reality and people approach to it (with 4w5 sp first morbidness and interest in especially death related music/art/stories) that are more personal to her that she doesn't share as openly, though it can get quite image heavy and generally emotionally heavy, while I tend to try to find someone to share my thoughts and feelings on anything that gets me emotionally stimulated and want to bounce off thoughts with someone, a need/desire to share that experience with someone and tend to skirt around as heavy topics. (my 9ness might be rubbing off on that, though.)

    That's all anectdotal though, but didn't want to give a complete cookie-cutter copy paste on the matter, so welp.
    This was all extremely helpful. I consistently am like you more than the EIIs you describe.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    COOL AND MANLY's Avatar
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    The way you approach the theory is of a feeling type. “I like this person, thus he is my dual.” “I hate this person, so he is my conflictor.” Thinking types are not that confident in their likes/dislikes to base the entire theory around their attitude towards others. In fact thinking types might ruin real relationships if they don’t think someone is their dual or mirror. It’s totally the opposite of what you are doing. You get what I’m saying?

    I may be wrong but that’s my impression.

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    Without a word spoken, it can be difficult to tell them apart and both are perfectionists in their own way but once they speak, they're really easy to distinguish.
    LII vs EII
    strategist vs moralist
    absolute vs relative
    practical vs philosophical
    smarter than thou vs holier than thou
    advisor vs preacher
    accomplishment vs nirvana
    director vs diplomat
    straight forward vs complicated
    clear vs nuanced
    cutting vs sensitive
    doer vs organiser
    wants competence vs wants respect
    analyse vs valuate
    projects vs causes
    seeks resolution vs seeks balance

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    What are the strong, manifestly observable differences between LII and EII??

    The profiles that are out there seem vaguely interchangeable to me. Arguments can be made for EII overanalyzing too much, and LII being a perfectionist and so on.

    What are some clear ways you can distinguish between the two, especially overlooking nuances that could be associated with gender instead?
    compare enneagram 4 with 5

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    compare enneagram 4 with 5
    ahhhhhhh i'm kind of both. I never did decide which was stronger. Then again the last test I did was radically different and was 3w2 but who knows.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Without a word spoken, it can be difficult to tell them apart and both are perfectionists in their own way but once they speak, they're really easy to distinguish.
    LII vs EII
    strategist vs moralist
    absolute vs relative
    practical vs philosophical
    smarter than thou vs holier than thou
    advisor vs preacher
    accomplishment vs nirvana
    director vs diplomat
    straight forward vs complicated
    clear vs nuanced
    cutting vs sensitive
    doer vs organiser
    wants competence vs wants respect
    analyse vs valuate
    projects vs causes
    seeks resolution vs seeks balance

    a.k.a. I/O
    I think your list is very well done. I also think that it illustrates for myself why I find making a distinction so difficult. I think I have well-developed Ti and Fi. I suppose there is no reason why that cannot be possible.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    ....... I think I have well-developed Ti and Fi. I suppose there is no reason why that cannot be possible.
    One could possibly be on the fence but both the Ti and Fi-processes would likely have to be somewhat reduced sets due to processor limitations. One has to keep in mind that only one set of processes can arbitrate in a stable system. Process priority establishes type - not online time. A process control split between Fi/Ti would likely create chaos. Both types can do both sides of my list to some extent but when the rubber hits the road, which side has the highest tendency/priority?

    a.k.a. I/O

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    One could possibly be on the fence but both the Ti and Fi-processes would likely have to be somewhat reduced sets due to processor limitations. One has to keep in mind that only one set of processes can arbitrate in a stable system. Process priority establishes type - not online time. A process control split between Fi/Ti would likely create chaos. Both types can do both sides of my list to some extent but when the rubber hits the road, which side has the highest tendency/priority?

    a.k.a. I/O
    Yes, it could mean reduced resources overall if the two are more evenly balanced. When I look at my overall quality of life, my academic and professional successes in areas of logic outweigh my relationship successes.

    I found it easy to make friends in high school and college and then early in my career, but have struggled with this ever since. My family relationships have been horrific in recent years and situations in which one should "fight for oneself" in response left me horrified to even be in such a situation to begin with, and leaving the battlegrounds rather than engaging in my basic human rights. Instead I would retreat into reason and would question, how could they behave so irrationally and hurtfully with their ignorance? So if there must be a weighing of F and T, it seems I would be more of a T type female.

    As a reminder, I aced college philosophical Logic class no problem, didn't even have to read the book, whereas the average grade in the class was a C and many had dropped it due to the difficulty level. Every aptitude test I have ever taken in pure logic has been an A or usually a perfect score. It is much higher than my analytical reasoning (which is more deductive). I have more confidence in my ability to deal with the logical than the interpersonal aspects of a situation. When it comes to interpersonal relations, I lean toward an overly idealistic goodwill to all and control none type of approach.

    Also, when it comes to the interpersonal life, I married late in life for the first time at age 44. I would imagine that F types would tend to marry easily younger and be able to capture their significant others more easily at a younger age. I have had some pretty exacting standards and was not usually assertive towards those I was interested in over the years, to the loss of many interested prospects who also would not make the next move, awaiting a cue from me first. That lead to several impasses.

    Just a reminder - the first type test I ever took was an MBTI one at age 15 and I got INFP. Then by age 18/19 for years I got INTP most of the time yet occasionally INFP, INFJ, INTJ. It was always high intuition, high introversion, and the rest was up in the air. I got even scores between F and T much of the time. I relate to type profiles of INFP INTP INTJ and INFJ particularly certain INFJ MBTI profiles seemed accurae when they wrote more about the mystically-oriented side of ones nature.

    Subjects I have studied in my lifetime include - dance including choreography of ballet and modern/jazz, visual art, piano (self-taught), music composition, computer programming (8 languages), philosophy, foreign language dabbling, drafting and layout spaceplanning, architecture, jewelry making, CAD (7 systems), theology, comparative religions, religious textual studies, chakras and kundalini, personality type systems (enneagram, socionics, DISC, mbti), astrology, tarot, Jungian psychology, cosmology, astrophysics, astronomy, physics, fractals, mathematics, Celtic cultural studies, music appreciation (folk, new age, pop, alternative, electronic, choral, classical), drawing and painting (acrylic, oil, watercolor, gouache), writing avant garde poetry, photography, stained glass work (limited experience), mythologies, collecting rocks and minerals, metaphysical lore of crystals and meditations with them and much experimentation, new age ideas.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    @vesstheastralsilky When under stress or out of their comfort zone, LIIs can behave ESE-like (secondary configuration); they can often become fairly animated and or chatty - sometimes dramatic. However, once this spate is over, the results are viewed through LII processes so I wonder if your perception of EII processes being at work is really the behaviour your secondary processing configuration as seen through LII glasses.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Skip to end for core distinction.

    Ti and Fi are not value judgments....neither falls into some moral domain. Socionic functions are information processors. Ti and Fi are information processors. That means value neutral. As I have said many, many times before, the butchering of any socionics function into a conflation with morality must end. It's good that people start seeing socionics purely in terms of cognition...

    Let's start with definitions:

    Fi cognition is an internal mirror of other people's inner worlds. It would be like having another person inside your skin, that you're constantly introspecting to. Fi has heightened capacity to experience that other person's thoughts/memories/goals/discomforts/impressions and grasp the other persons' psychology as if it were organic to their own.

    Fi/Ne cognition excels at envisioning/anticipating/forecasting immediate and distant futures for the person....so the possibile ways in which the surrounding context will effect that person's psychology.

    Ti-lead equals hard-headed data collection. Ti-leads are looking to get the most fundamental truths (axioms) and then build knowledge from the ground up. It's the ultimate in the linear, logical, clear-headed scientific approach. (in contrast, Ni-leads have the strongest cognition for archetypes.) Ti-dom is looking more for the unknowns and perpetually involved in looking for and identifying problems that go into the deeper "undercurrents" of an outward structure. In contrast to Ti/Ne, Ne/Ti has a more non-linear cognition....you can find examples of time distortion in Ne-lead's reasoning process once you start to pull them out of their skin. Not so for Ti-lead.

    Ti/Ne is a correlator of systems as Ne lends a cognition for synthesis. However, Ti/Ne has no vision in which they're sacrificing off old systems in order to build a new one. They aren't innovative, but tend to be doggedly loyal to what's already in place.

    Distinction follows from definition:

    the main distinction between Tidom and Fidom is in their approach to knowledge about other people. Ti-dom disregards aspects of the inner view - thoughts, feelings, spirit, values, consciousness (the mental, emotional, spiritual inner life)-- in their approach to studying and explaining people's behavior. Fi-dom overemphasizes the inner mental, emotional, spiritual inner life when it comes their evaluation and understanding of other's people's behavior. Thus, Fi devalues/underemphasizes the objective properties in other people and strongly cognizes subjective properties...Ti devalues/underemphasizes the subjective properties in other people and strongly cognizes objective properties.

    Ne-creative in Ti-dom cognizes the possible ways in which the environment will condition an individual's behavior. Ne-creative in Fi-dom cognizes the possible ways in which the environment will effect an individual's inner world.
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 03-14-2019 at 10:42 PM.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    If it weren’t for the occasional ting of Fe, LII look like me (emotional, easily bothered sensitive, thoughtful and somewhat melancholy). I think we look a lot alike but they can obviously do Ti so much better than I can. I know this because my use of Ti never frees my sister’s clenching Fe moods.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Professional Turtle Taknamay's Avatar
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    I am having exactly the same difficulty deciding my type. Mostly I tend to lean towards EII but some people got me to convince myself I am LII based on the photo thread. I definitely feel more fulfillment in small social circles compared to lively groups.
    What is a utopia? A dream unrealized, but not unrealizable. -- Joseph Dejacque
    EII (INFj) - 9w1 - INFP - Scorpio - Hufflepuff
    Johari - Fediverse

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