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Thread: Any Career Advice for LIIs ?

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Question Any Career Advice for LIIs ?

    We don't take direction well, tend to be smarter than the average supervisor and do not play materialistic nor interpersonal politics. Not all find ways to reach their academic potential to secure profitable credentials. Networking is a weakness especially just not knowing enough people. And having the ingenuity of our efficient work underestimated and undervalued is a pitfall. Can't use Se successfully to manipulate others into giving high raises etc.

    What can we do to professionally advance our careers and keep steady work???
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Wait, you're LII now?
    Technically, type doesn't change.

    I got INTP on most tests for the last 25 years most the time. My ISFP phase was just a desperate midlife cry for much needed Si and Fe. I'm married to an ESE now who gives it to me and helped me return to my normal self.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Are there any LII entrepreneurs / business owners / freelancers on this forum? Or does anybody know such a LII?

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    Are there any LII entrepreneurs / business owners / freelancers on this forum? Or does anybody know such a LII?
    I think our frustration and devaluing of Se makes such ventures rather difficult.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    I think our frustration and devaluing of Se makes such ventures rather difficult.
    Se polr makes it difficult, but I think that is possible. I don't want to learn about celebrities though, the story of the everyday common person is much more interesting. I would like to learn about an entrepreneur LII's journey if such a person exists on this forum or if anybody knows a LII like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    Technically, type doesn't change.

    I got INTP on most tests for the last 25 years most the time. My ISFP phase was just a desperate midlife cry for much needed Si and Fe. I'm married to an ESE now who gives it to me and helped me return to my normal self.
    I thought you were sure he was an ILE?

    Take a look at the advice you were given in the thread you made for career advice for an SEI through the fresh eyes of your new LII typing? You posted your own interests and skills there.

    Better yet google search the types of careers you are interested in and then look into what it would take to set yourself on that path. Look into getting a career counselor. They should be intelligent enough to help you out. https://www.thebalancecareers.com/ho...-coach-2059777

    https://www.monster.com/career-advic...eer-counseling

    If you ask for advice under various self typings people probably won't take you as serious, unfortunately.

    I don't think you would enjoy the types careers some LIIs here have since you already said as much in other threads.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I thought you were sure he was an ILE?

    Take a look at the advice you were given in the thread you made for career advice for an SEI through the fresh eyes of your new LII typing? You posted your own interests and skills there.

    Better yet google search the types of careers you are interested in and then look into what it would take to set yourself on that path. Look into getting a career counselor. They should be intelligent enough to help you out. https://www.thebalancecareers.com/ho...-coach-2059777

    https://www.monster.com/career-advic...eer-counseling

    If you ask for advice under various self typings people probably won't take you as serious, unfortunately.

    I don't think you would enjoy the types careers some LIIs here have since you already said as much in other threads.
    I have had many professional jobs including automotive product design (much varied experience), process engineering, web UI design & programming, and marketing analytics research and project development. My original college goals were to prepare for a career in scientific research. I am still only one year away from a degree in physics with an excellent GPA. Can't afford to finish.

    I was only sure my Love was my dual. So the ILE was just a conclusion made before we met in person finally. Then we spent two weeks solid together and with many other people and I was able to rebalance myself by having something of a social life, which is pretty unusual for me to have.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    I think our frustration and devaluing of Se makes such ventures rather difficult.
    I guess I know what you mean.
    There are things you have to care about when you're self-employed. Things you usally don't care about.
    In Germany you have to deal with a lot of bureaucracy, for example. You have to do accounting if you're self-employed or you have to pay someone else to do it for you... and probably we've got the most complex tax system in the whole world.

    Some jobs are difficult for LII because we don't value and , for me it's physical demanding work and repeated tasks. I can do it only for a limited period of time a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    I guess I know what you mean.
    There are things you have to care about when you're self-employed. Things you usally don't care about.
    In Germany you have to deal with a lot of bureaucracy, for example. You have to do accounting if you're self-employed or you have to pay someone else to do it for you... and probably we've got the most complex tax system in the whole world.

    Some jobs are difficult for LII because we don't value and , for me it's physical demanding work and repeated tasks. I can do it only for a limited period of time a day.
    Yes, I don't like dealing with excessive mundane repetition NOR having to be too assertive in daily life. In the USA business people who are more autonomous are VERY aggressive and loud people, generally speaking. Not all though, but it helps them a lot in this cultural climate when negotiating and demonstrating "competence" by sheer force of volition rather than introspective ingenuity and understanding.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    Are there any LII entrepreneurs / business owners / freelancers on this forum? Or does anybody know such a LII?
    Why entrepreneurs in particular? I don't consider myself one. I live comfortably. I bought an apartment recently. I invest in the stock market. But I'm not a millionaire yet in terms of net worth.

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    Take advantages of opportunities to display talent by taking the opportunity to a higher level and then slowly break people in to your way of doing things until it's the way people do things. Keeping steady work has been pretty easy in the long term.

    Getting a better job though... Getting great opportunities... Making what you should be.. fuck if I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    Why entrepreneurs in particular? I don't consider myself one. I live comfortably. I bought an apartment recently. I invest in the stock market. But I'm not a millionaire yet in terms of net worth.
    Literally and figuratively great job!

    Every job is restrictive but I think entrepreneurs can manipulate/set the principles and/or conditions of their work and/or their own vision more freely than people who work for a corporate or someone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    Literally and figuratively great job!

    Every job is restrictive but I think entrepreneurs can manipulate/set the principles and/or conditions of their work and/or their own vision more freely than people who work for a corporate or someone else.
    True. But you need to have some capital to own a business and borrowing money is not the answer. Unless you are Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. Even they started by working for someone else.

    Look up saving rates if you want to start somewhere.

    http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/...ly-retirement/

    I do think finding a high paying job is the best shot you have to reach your goals but that is something you will have to work at.
    Last edited by COOL AND MANLY; 02-25-2019 at 11:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    Technically, type doesn't change.
    I don't know if I agree with this assumption despite its commonality in MBTI forums (haven't seen it used in socionics forums as much). I also don't see the necessity for it, unless, of course, it's a logical consequence rather than an assumption. But I don't know what axioms are present in socionics to allow for such a conclusion - I am generally unaware of socionics' epistemology. Anyways, I have to think more about it before concluding anyways. But that's besides the purpose of the thread.

    I got INTP on most tests for the last 25 years most the time. My ISFP phase was just a desperate midlife cry for much needed Si and Fe. I'm married to an ESE now who gives it to me and helped me return to my normal self.
    Do you mean INTj (LII), or are we talking about MBTI (many INTPs type as LII, though it shouldn't be used as a translation)? You use ISFP later, which I assume is ISFp since you typed yourself SEI before. It's good you've managed to discern differences between what your nature is and what you need at a particular moment in time. Good for introspection and understanding yourself.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    There is a business reorganizer title in Gulenko's LII profile. If I have understood right you have had something similar going on? You can not get enough money from it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.

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    @vesstheastralsilky LIIs are not smarter than other types on average; there are very intelligent individuals of every type including LIIs. I've met LIIs who were complete idiots. LIIs tend to be better at advisor jobs that require some level of strategic planning but don't seem to be as comfortable with jobs that are on the front lines. All LIIs including the idiots do tend to think that their rationalization is superior to others. Note that your phrasing about not knowing enough people, underestimation, undervalued and manipulation seems somewhat Ip-like - tending toward a sort of siege mentality.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Planners (Ijs) usually have faith in what they're doing and or in the way that they're doing it but often doubt their own knowledge and senses; on the other hand, observers (Ips) seem to have high confidence in their own knowledge and or what they sense but can have serious doubt about their methods and or final products. Both groups can be rather intransigent - for different reasons. Innate confidence with either input or output is a huge determining factor for a wise career choice.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I don't know if I agree with this assumption despite its commonality in MBTI forums (haven't seen it used in socionics forums as much). I also don't see the necessity for it, unless, of course, it's a logical consequence rather than an assumption. But I don't know what axioms are present in socionics to allow for such a conclusion - I am generally unaware of socionics' epistemology. Anyways, I have to think more about it before concluding anyways. But that's besides the purpose of the thread.



    Do you mean INTj (LII), or are we talking about MBTI (many INTPs type as LII, though it shouldn't be used as a translation)? You use ISFP later, which I assume is ISFp since you typed yourself SEI before. It's good you've managed to discern differences between what your nature is and what you need at a particular moment in time. Good for introspection and understanding yourself.
    I'm going with LII because I dislike excessive Se in self or others but can enjoy excessive Si.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    When I review my career history so far, I can see how knowing the right people has helped me land jobs and not knowing people has been a hindrance no matter how skilled I am.

    My resume reads like a history of creative technical projects.

    I have found it difficult as I get older to find steady work because it seems hard to find employers who care about me and will commit. When I was younger I was often hired to meet female quotas, do the challenges others shunned and for low pay most of the time compared to the true value of the work. The level of intelligence required to complete the tasks I was given was often underestimated and sometimes I was more highly educated and knowledgeable than my managers which also lead to a sense of devaluing the efforts I actually expended. I find it hard to get loyalty from employers. They hire me for projects and when they are done, let me go. They have often favored men with families over me when it comes to deciding who gets the high salaries and who gets to stay. Meanwhile I am desperately trying to establish my own family here at midlife and my spouse is heavily financially dependent upon me.

    I used to enjoy challenges for the first 15 years or so of my career and was known for that. I prided myself on learning new skills rapidly and such. But rather than building on a deep body of knowledge I can rest in, the opportunities I have been given keep seeming to demandthat I keep learning new things. At 44 now, even to me this gets old. I mean, I never even got into computer programming yet have already worked in 7 different programming languages anyway, 7 CAD platforms (not to mention all the revisions), etc. I love innovation as much as the next person but sooner or later it gets old and you kind of want to be able to stick with what you know for a while and develop a sense of career security in that. I have had two stints with employers for nearly 5 years each, and the rest of my jobs and have been for less time. It is a bit of a contradiction too because I hate monotony so there does need to be at least some novelty at times on the job - opportunities to improve things and make changes and increase efficiency in how we do things. I enjoy that. What I hate are office politics. I have experienced many bouts in my career of non-prosecuted sexual harassment (severe), sexism, religious discrimination, and so on. It is frustrated to see how people can make the workplace a difficult environment to be in when work can be demanding enough as it is. Why not all try and contribute to the quality of life, work TOGETHER and NOT feel threatened just because a coworker like me might have some talents you do not? It is all about pooling resources together for the sake of a team achieving successes, not petty power plays and lying and slander and withholding resources and trying to sabotage others work. Oh the things people do can be so disheartening.

    Anyway, I find that the criteria and stereotypes and assumptions others make when reading resumes and experiences in the job search to be rather contrary to my true situation and strengths. Employers seem to look for strong specific focus and specialization in one area and staying with that as long as possible. My strengths are interdisciplinary and vague and theoretical where you have to employ some possibilities oriented thinking to even grasp what I have already achieved and how such skills can transfer into new avenues of employment. Even though I have succeeded at just about everything I have chosen to undertake, it kind of looks like I've been a jack of all trades and one might misinterpret my diversity as lack of ability and failure, or inability to commit. Hmmm.

    Another thing ~ I get very tired of the inefficiency of repeating information as I keep filling out job applications over the internet. I have rehashed my skills and experience so may times it is nauseating. I counted my periods of job searching since 2000 and I kid you not, I have wasted at least 30,000 hours doing it and perfecting resumes. Yet the reality is most jobs come through people you already know. Networking. That is where I struggle, even though I have tried hard to optimize my social networks anyway. I also find it hard to get endorsements when few people know what specialization I had and wa working on behind the scenes for so long.

    Do any other LIIs or ILEs have similar experiences or concerns?
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Honestly, at 44 the question shouldn't be, "what should I do to make people realize how awesome I am?" Too many people are in your shoes and are way younger. It's too late for that. If you haven't made it by now, you should probably be more realistic regarding your prospects and work with what you have. You kind of implied it but if you had long periods of unemployment and constant job hopping, you are going to set yourself back no matter who you are.

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    At age 44, Ray Kroc was still driving around Southern California, selling Multimixer milk shake machines to mom and pop restaurants. He didn't start McDonald's until he was 52. So, you never know....

    (Although one thing he was, was focused.)

    @vesstheastralsilky, the LII's that I know have jobs where they organize information, either in reports or in an engineering context, and they work for large organizations where they can kind of disappear into the woodwork.

    Just as LIE's are known as workaholics, LII's, who are temperamentally 180 degrees from us (Extinguishment) seem to hate the necessity of work. One LII told me that he'd happily give up 3/4 of his salary if he could come to work for only one week every month.

    As for getting jobs by personal reference, yes, my LII sister got her job in the local college when my buddy wanted to hire her so he could (pant pant) be closer to her. That part of the job didn't work out (of course - he is ILI where she needs ESE), but her performance on the rest of the job brought her raises.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-26-2019 at 05:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Just as LIE's are known as workaholics, LII's, who are temperamentally 180 degrees from us (Extinguishment) seem to hate the necessity of work.
    This is not true.

    His work and research often constitute the main purpose of his life. Many representatives of this type corresponds to the label "workaholic".

    Being captivated by his work may refuse dinner.

    Also, regarding the positions LIIs occupy in companies. Unless they are experienced in what they do, they can expect to start from the bottom, like everyone else. Where do they end up depends on the individual and their ambition. I can only speak from my own experience in Air Traffic Control. LIIs are controllers, supervisors, and often when they get older they move into training departments and administration. If they decide to "disappear into the woodwork", then they can't really expect to get any recognition, can't they? This is true for any type. I highly doubt that LIIs are less ambitious on average than the average joe in the company. That actually sounds like hell to me. I can't stand being mediocre forever.

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    Contrary types are not opposites but very similar in many aspects. I think they can easily fool outside observers at first glance when they are in the wild.


    I have found pretty identical EIE and EII. They just vocalize and stress their message in opposite direction while they are professionally in same occupations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Just as LIE's are known as workaholics, LII's, who are temperamentally 180 degrees from us (Extinguishment) seem to hate the necessity of work. One LII told me that he'd happily give up 3/4 of his salary if he could come to work for only one week every month.
    I thought this was true as well since LIIs value Si and unvalue Te and Se; however, I read quite a bit contradicting this idea. I've skimmed through the articles on wikisocion to see if the claim is true or not. I decided to find out if LIIs are workaholics or not. In the process, I found evidence contradicting the predicate that "LII's hate the necessity of work".

    Claim: LIIs are workaholics.

    Filatova writes
    His work and research often constitute the main purpose of his life. Many representatives of this type corresponds to the label "workaholic".
    He cannot simply idle around and exist without a goal.
    .
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ion-(Filatova)

    Gulenko writes
    In business and work activities, this desire for freedom is coupled with a sense of responsibility for him. Undemanding, often indifferent to food and decorations. Being captivated by his work may refuse dinner.


    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LII_Profile_by_Gulenko

    Beskova writes
    Male LIIs, especially in mature age, may wish to have a large family and many children. They love their children and are sincerely attached to them, however, they may also be somewhat neglectful if they are seriously taken in by their favorite work.
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Robespierre.29

    Bukalov and Boiko write
    General characteristic of people of this type - to go to the goal of consistently and systematically, despite the impediments.

    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Socionics_Type_Descriptions_by_Buk alov_and_Boiko#LII_.28Robespierre.29

    Wikisocion LII composite under "Common social roles"
    1. The self-sacrificing workaholic who works hard, not in order to earn money, but because he doesn't want to give anything less than 100%.
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t..._LII_composite

    T. Prokofieva and M. Kuzmina write
    Having set a goal, the LII relies on his or her own diligence and inner organization to do their work. Consistency, reliability, ability to stick to their word – all of these are typical of representatives of this type.
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...and_M._Kuzmina

    Evidence against claim. Weisband and Aushra write
    His dual The Bonvivant, as if being aware of that, involves him into work not by direct orders but begins to fuss about, to make a lot of unnecessary movements – then The Analyst gets involved, and the work goes rapidly, logically and soundly. He himself does not show much initiative, is reclusive and silent.
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Robespierre.29

    I wasn't able to find more, though it could have been the case that my skimming missed some things. So, I went through each profile using control+F to check key words: "lazy", "hard", "necessity", "salary", "profit". I already went through with control+F to find use of the word "work".

    I actually found these quotes: Filatova writes
    Though he is often hardworking, operative, and likes organization, he will not execute the commands of superiors, which in his view are incorrect, or do so very begrudgingly.
    Beskova writes
    At home the male LII behaves softly, somewhat passively, and is responsive to requests of his family members. He is not lazy and strives to carry out his obligations. The male LII will not refuse to look after children, to change diapers, to walk to the store and buy produce.


    Blohin writes
    Methodicalness, perseverance, high capacity for work especially mental, endurance, commitment, responsibility, work without rest or interruption
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Robespierre.29


    Conclusion: I know not all these quotes precisely support the claim that LIIs are workaholics, but the picture is clear - they are persistent, hardworking individuals. ADDITION: The quotes talking about how LIIs strive to achieve a goal and are willing to put aside personal pleasures for that goal indicate that LIIs value the process of work when it is of interest to them. We conclude that since they are taking the goal on their own volition without external forces, meaning that they want to do it. I don't think it's possible to value the process of work without valuing its necessity.

    Valuing the process of work (on an individual level) = valuing that in order to achieve something, a process must be undertaken to achieve it.
    Valuing the necessity of work (on an individual level) = valuing that in order for anything to be accomplished, work must be done.

    The process that must be undertaken is the work. Therefore, valuing the process of work <=> valuing the necessity of work. QED for my bullshit pedantic-ass proof.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 02-26-2019 at 11:13 PM. Reason: Clarity in my response.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    I have definitely been guilty of Type A workaholism many times but by the same token, I agree with @Adam Strange that I would love to enjoy much time off from working. Getting caught up in it and hyperfocusing is something I view as one of my personal vices I try to curb. Working at too intense a pace can alienate one from coworkers and ironically hurt your standing in the workplace, in my repeated personal experience.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I thought this was true as well since LIIs value Si and unvalue Te and Se; however, I read quite a bit contradicting this idea. I've skimmed through the articles on wikisocion to see if the claim is true or not.

    Claim: LIIs are workaholics.

    Filatova writes
    .
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ion-(Filatova)

    Gulenko writes

    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LII_Profile_by_Gulenko

    Beskova writes
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Robespierre.29

    Bukalov and Boiko write
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Socionics_Type_Descriptions_by_Buk alov_and_Boiko#LII_.28Robespierre.29

    Wikisocion LII composite under "Common social roles"
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t..._LII_composite

    T. Prokofieva and M. Kuzmina write
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...and_M._Kuzmina

    Evidence against claim. Weisband and Aushra write
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Robespierre.29

    I wasn't able to find more, though it could have been the case that my skimming missed some things. So, I went through each profile using control+F to check key words: "lazy", "hard", "necessity", "salary", "profit". I already went through with control+F to find use of the word "work".

    I actually found these quotes: Filatova writes

    Beskova writes

    Blohin writes
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Robespierre.29


    Conclusion: I know not all these quotes precisely support the claim that LIIs are workaholics, but the picture is clear - they are persistent, hardworking individuals.
    @FarDraft, I said that LII's seem to hate the necessity of work, not that they hate all work. I believe they hate (or resent) the idea that they have to work to stay alive.

    The impression I get of LII's is not one of a lazy person, exactly, because LII's can work mentally very hard and can meet deadlines extremely well. Also, the quality of their work is usually extremely high. But I can't recall ever actually seeing an LII initiate a project because they either were incredibly interested in it, or thought it would amass them a fortune. Instead, the modus operandi seems to be, Find something that can be done without the expenditure of much physical energy and do enough of it to get an adequate income for minimal needs.

    Now, if you give an LII a reasonably comfortable, secure position and the responsibility to write a report, meet a deadline, or organize a project with the understanding that failing to do so is a personal failing which will put them out on the street and under a bridge, then they will come through every time.

    How much they self-motivate, though seems to be a question. If left alone with adequate (minimal) resources, I think there is a tendency for them to fall into immobility.

    I want to add a disclaimer here. I'm observing their behavior from the standpoint of an opposing quadra, and therefore am in about the worst position possible to make assumptions about their motives. My descriptions are only reflections of how I see them operating, and personal projections about why they do what they do.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-26-2019 at 10:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @FarDraft, I said that LII's seem to hate the necessity of work, not that they hate all work. I believe they hate (or resent) the idea that they have to work to stay alive.

    The impression I get of LII's is not one of a lazy person, exactly, because LII's can work mentally very hard and can meet deadlines extremely well. Also, the quality of their work is usually extremely high. But I can't recall ever actually seeing an LII initiate a project because they either were incredibly interested in it, or thought it would amass them a fortune. Instead, the modus operandi seems to be, Find something that can be done without the expenditure of much physical energy and do enough of it to get an adequate income for minimal needs.

    Now, if you give an LII a reasonably comfortable, secure position and the responsibility to write a report, meet a deadline, or organize a project with the understanding that failing to do so is a personal failing which will put them out on the street and under a bridge, then they will come through every time.

    How much they self-motivate, though seems to be a question. If left alone with adequate (minimal) resources, I think there is a tendency for them to fall into immobility.

    I want to add a disclaimer here. I'm observing their behavior from the standpoint of an opposing quadra, and therefore am in about the worst position possible to make assumptions about their motives. My descriptions are only reflections of how I see them operating, and personal projections about why they do what they do.
    I tend to agree with how you put it here.

    The concept of LIIs as workaholics seems to be based on a few things that are actually true:

    1. LIIs are more focused on tasks than people.
    2. They are often single-minded and detail-oriented, even perfectionistic.

    So, an LII will generally put more effort into the *quality* of work than most other types, just as LIEs put more effort into the quantity of work (working 18 hour days, sleeping under your desk and such). But I think your more standard workaholic tends to be an extroverted type with high Se. It makes little sense to say that LIIs are workaholics in any way that LSIs are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @FarDraft, I said that LII's seem to hate the necessity of work, not that they hate all work. I believe they hate (or resent) the idea that they have to work to stay alive.

    The impression I get of LII's is not one of a lazy person, exactly, because LII's can work mentally very hard and can meet deadlines extremely well. Also, the quality of their work is usually extremely high. But I can't recall ever actually seeing an LII initiate a project because they either were incredibly interested in it, or thought it would amass them a fortune. Instead, the modus operandi seems to be, Find something that can be done without the expenditure of much physical energy and do enough of it to get an adequate income for minimal needs.

    Now, if you give an LII a reasonably comfortable, secure position and the responsibility to write a report, meet a deadline, or organize a project with the understanding that failing to do so is a personal failing which will put them out on the street and under a bridge, then they will come through every time.

    How much they self-motivate, though seems to be a question. If left alone with adequate (minimal) resources, I think there is a tendency for them to fall into immobility.

    I want to add a disclaimer here. I'm observing their behavior from the standpoint of an opposing quadra, and therefore am in about the worst position possible to make assumptions about their motives. My descriptions are only reflections of how I see them operating, and personal projections about why they do what they do.
    I'm aware that you made the claim that LII's seem to hate the necessity of work. I was simply looking for evidence to see if they are workaholics or not. In the process of finding evidence for that, I found evidence against the idea that LIIs hate the necessity of work. I'll edit my post to make this distinction clearer since it really isn't in its current form.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    Honestly, at 44 the question shouldn't be, "what should I do to make people realize how awesome I am?" Too many people are in your shoes and are way younger. It's too late for that. If you haven't made it by now, you should probably be more realistic regarding your prospects and work with what you have. You kind of implied it but if you had long periods of unemployment and constant job hopping, you are going to set yourself back no matter who you are.
    Competency is not the only factor in success. There are also industry wide cutbacks, professions and technologies that get phased out, recessions, and other matters that influence career path.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    IT, programming, game dev, software dev, Ai, trouble shooting, academics, sciences. Stereotypically speaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    Competency is not the only factor in success. There are also industry wide cutbacks, professions and technologies that get phased out, recessions, and other matters that influence career path.
    I guess I don’t relate. I believe that you create your own success. Especially over a long period of time. Position and improve yourself so that when opportunities are around you already ready for them and you meet the requirements. Luck is a matter of preparation meeting opportunity.

    One of the reasons why I decided to work as a teller when I first started was to learn more about the practical side of money and investment. I could have done something easier or more fun but there is no challenge in that. I wanted insights that are not available to the general public and I managed to find them. I sat with people I had no business being with because I was curious and eager to learn. Your first few jobs should inform your decisions later in life. Treat them as internships. Yes, you are there to learn the basics but that shouldn’t stop you from looking for things beyond that. Find out what skills you are missing to be successful and put yourself out there to acquire them - a formal education is simply not enough.

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    LIIs want autonomy more than anything else and tend toward perfectionism (a relative term). They dislike expectations that rob them of their autonomy or that cause them to be less than perfect in their own eyes. LIIs can be highly productive when they think that they're calling the shots and setting the schedule, even though autonomy may be a well crafted illusion. Perfectionism can really annoy others, and cause workaholiism and eventual burnout so they sometimes need protection from themselves. LIIs seem to do better with project work that has finite timelines, but sufficient resources and free-rein. They certainly don't do well with no-win scenarios and don't work well with others looking over their shoulder.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    LIIs want autonomy more than anything else and tend toward perfectionism (a relative term). They dislike expectations that rob them of their autonomy or that cause them to be less than perfect in their own eyes. LIIs can be highly productive when they think that they're calling the shots and setting the schedule, even though autonomy may be a well crafted illusion. Perfectionism can really annoy others, and cause workaholiism and eventual burnout so they sometimes need protection from themselves. LIIs seem to do better with project work that has finite timelines, but sufficient resources and free-rein. They certainly don't do well with no-win scenarios and don't work well with others looking over their shoulder.

    a.k.a. I/O
    This is about 1000X better than what I wrote.

    Self-descriptions are always best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    I guess I don’t relate. I believe that you create your own success. Especially over a long period of time. Position and improve yourself so that when opportunities are around you already ready for them and you meet the requirements. Luck is a matter of preparation meeting opportunity.

    One of the reasons why I decided to work as a teller when I first started was to learn more about the practical side of money and investment. I could have done something easier or more fun but there is no challenge in that. I wanted insights that are not available to the general public and I managed to find them. I sat with people I had no business being with because I was curious and eager to learn. Your first few jobs should inform your decisions later in life. Treat them as internships. Yes, you are there to learn the basics but that shouldn’t stop you from looking for things beyond that. Find out what skills you are missing to be successful and put yourself out there to acquire them - a formal education is simply not enough.
    Maybe it is because you don't live in Michigan and didn't start out in the automotive industry...

    Never take good fortune that allows you to be your best for granted.

    I know someone who reached the height of her career by 28 and then was knocked out of her game when she was drgugged and raped by a coworker, developed PTSD and was terrified to work in her 10-year long industry for years. She had gang threats on her life etc and this scared her off even though she was a top performer and management loved her. Competition can be brutal depending on where you work and the quality of people you are dealing with. She tried a new career but never did fully recover because she was already perfectly aligned and doing her best in her original situation.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    LIIs want autonomy more than anything else and tend toward perfectionism (a relative term). They dislike expectations that rob them of their autonomy or that cause them to be less than perfect in their own eyes. LIIs can be highly productive when they think that they're calling the shots and setting the schedule, even though autonomy may be a well crafted illusion. Perfectionism can really annoy others, and cause workaholiism and eventual burnout so they sometimes need protection from themselves. LIIs seem to do better with project work that has finite timelines, but sufficient resources and free-rein. They certainly don't do well with no-win scenarios and don't work well with others looking over their shoulder.

    a.k.a. I/O
    EXACTLY! Fits me to a tee.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    Maybe it is because you don't live in Michigan and didn't start out in the automotive industry...

    Never take good fortune that allows you to be your best for granted.

    I know someone who reached the height of her career by 28 and then was knocked out of her game when she was drgugged and raped by a coworker, developed PTSD and was terrified to work in her 10-year long industry for years. She had gang threats on her life etc and this scared her off even though she was a top performer and management loved her. Competition can be brutal depending on where you work and the quality of people you are dealing with. She tried a new career but never did fully recover because she was already perfectly aligned and doing her best in her original situation.
    I've been rich and I've been poor and it's better to be rich. And what I can tell you about success is that it is a combination of luck and more luck.

    First, pick your parents, which will determine your race, location, genetic makeup, and your social tool set. After that, just be lucky.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...e-jobs/582175/

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    EXACTLY! Fits me to a tee.
    Then you might relate to this:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/on_being_intj.html

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Then you might relate to this:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/on_being_intj.html

    a.k.a. I/O
    About 98% relatable. The exceptions are on empathy and affection ~ I can show it with a significant other, and I am empathic with people when they deserve it. Sometimes decisions are poor and they do not deserve it.

    The need to size up a situation and feel competent before acting is all very true, as well as the constant surveying of all angles and contingency planning. I too am often too pessimistic in a way that others have often taken offense at because I am quick to dismiss prospects that seem untenable or too risky.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    ........ empathy and affection ~ I can show it with a significant other, and I am empathic with people when they deserve it. Sometimes decisions are poor and they do not deserve it........
    I always thought I was too but was told by too many that they thought I was detached and cold on occasions when I thought I was being emotionally supportive......

    Note that in a later version of that text, I modified one sentence because I didn't think I was nearly as quick as other types at changing plans: ".......forces me to stop planning and start implementation. When underway, I'm able to modify my direction ad hoc when I see better courses of action........."

    a.k.a. I/O

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