# Thread: Lattice Structure of Socionics

1. ## Lattice Structure of Socionics

This is the lattice diagram for the Dihedral Four cross Cyclic Two group, which is the structure of the intertype relations and Model A. This is a fundamentally different approach to dichotomies and small groups as compared to the Reinin dichotomy intersections that socionist like Gulenko use.

I'm happy to explain any of this if you have questions.

2. "This is a fundamentally different approach to dichotomies and small groups as compared to the Reinin dichotomy intersections that socionist like DarkAngelFireWolf69 use." Gotta love how this Nitro Boost Theme delivers.

Good to see how you're coming around. Remember to credit me next time for the "lattice structure" thought.

3. Originally Posted by sbbds
"This is a fundamentally different approach to dichotomies and small groups as compared to the Reinin dichotomy intersections that socionist like DarkAngelFireWolf69 use." Gotta love how this Nitro Boost Theme delivers.

Good to see how you're coming around. Remember to credit me next time for the "lattice structure" thought.
Wait, why lol? You invented lattice diagrams?

4. Originally Posted by ajsindri
Wait, why lol? You invented lattice diagrams?
no but I've been trying to indoctrinate you (and others) to model B's lattice structure for ages

PS did you block me on facebook

5. Originally Posted by sbbds
no but I've been trying to indoctrinate you (and others) to model B's lattice structure for ages
!!! I must have missed that. Do you have links? I had no idea other people where doing this kind of thing.

6. ## n00b lyfe

Originally Posted by ajsindri
!!! I must have missed that. Do you have links? I had no idea other people where doing this kind of thing.
It's just Model B by Bukalov. I fucking linked it to you a mirrion years ago in our first convos.

Model B = Model A Worked Out to Completion? (PersonalityCafe Thread)

thehotelambush Caught On Early with his "Model A Cube" idea, isomorphic / structurally near identical to it. @thehotelambush

ILE hypercube from Model B:

mRZFAZq.jpg

TIM is a fractal, assholes

Also this is what I meant with "symmetry" @Varlawend . Fuck all Ti devaluers because symmetry is cool lol.

7. Go circlejerk to that in irl during your next Socionics meetup

8. Originally Posted by sbbds
It's just Model B by Bukalov. I fucking linked it to you a mirrion years ago in our first convos.
I remember that, but that has to do with charged elements and recursion. Did I miss a part about Dihedral subgroups?

9. Originally Posted by ajsindri
I remember that, but that has to do with charged elements and recursion. Did I miss a part about Dihedral subgroups?
This thread is titled "LATTICE STRUCTURE OF SOCIONICS". I'm only speaking to that topic. Nobody gives a fuck about dihedral shapes LOL.

11. Socionics fundamentally has a lattice structure, not just your gay picture meant for children to look at here.

12. Originally Posted by sbbds
This thread is titled "LATTICE STRUCTURE OF SOCIONICS". I'm only speaking to that topic. Nobody gives a fuck about dihedral shapes LOL.
Soooo, what if I told you pretty much that entire picture I posted in the OP is about dihedral shapes lol.

The reason dihedral geometry is in socionics is Jung's compass. Model A applies his concept correctly, but the Reinin dichotomies (and for that matter MBTI) do not. Not that the Reinin dichotomies are necessarily useless, but they exist in a degraded state, which is why the don't work for the intertype relations. I made the lattice of subgroups to see if certain dichotomies and small groups show up, and surprisingly, a lot do, such as club, quadra and temperament.

13. @ajsindri Say that in the first place next time then lol

14. Originally Posted by sbbds
TIM is a fractal, assholes

Also this is what I meant with "symmetry" @Varlawend . Fuck all Ti devaluers because symmetry is cool lol.

Go circlejerk to that in irl during your next Socionics meetup
Lol, what is this outburst of vulgarity in reference to? I totally agree that symmetry is cool: it is beautiful and is a very powerful mathematical concept. It's no wonder that theoretical physicists and mathematicians use it so often. Have I ever said otherwise? (insert some silly generic comment about how Te devaluers misrepresent the facts) In any case, I'm not impressed with model B. It's not bad. However, the mathematics of thehotelambush (from which Andrew is working) is far more powerful and general than this; to understand that, you'd have to actually read his paper. There are many geometric models which derive from it, of which Bukalov's cube is only one. The whole "fractal" Socionics insight is also used in many places besides model B, and is hardly unique to it. If you want to use Model B, then be my guest; I'm sure it will serve many purposes well enough.

15. Originally Posted by Varlawend
Lol, what is this outburst of vulgarity in reference to? I totally agree that symmetry is cool: it is beautiful and is a very powerful mathematical concept. It's no wonder that theoretical physicists and mathematicians use it so often. Have I ever said otherwise? (insert some silly generic comment about how Te devaluers misrepresent the facts) In any case, I'm not impressed with model B. It's not bad. However, the mathematics of thehotelambush (from which Andrew is working) is far more powerful and general than this; to understand that, you'd have to actually read his paper. There are many geometric models which derive from it, of which Bukalov's cube is only one. The whole "fractal" Socionics insight is also used in many places besides model B, and is hardly unique to it. If you want to use Model B, then be my guest; I'm sure it will serve many purposes well enough.
Are you sindri’s mom? Using real first names, so gamma lol.

The whole "fractal" Socionics insight is also used in many places besides model B, and is hardly unique to it.
Wait, where else? @Varlawend

16. Originally Posted by sbbds
Are you sindri’s mom? Using real first names, so gamma lol.
Yes, lol, how did you know? I'm protecting my son ajsindri from big bad internet people.

Wait, where else? @Varlawend
-thehotelambush's model of types as signed information elements
-Viktor Gulenko: Expanded Model G diagrams (Andrew has some mocking meme on this), DCNH system, Holographic-Panoramic Cognitive Style, probably more besides
-I think Statievskaya has some fractal stuff too, or at least jermofo told me she did. I'm not as familiar with it personally though

17. Originally Posted by Varlawend
Yes, lol, how did you know? I'm protecting my son ajsindri from big bad internet people.
Wtf I actually can’t tell if you’re being serious or not LOL. Tfw ILIs...

18. Wait LOL it’s impossible because you guys are from different states lol. Just kindred feels af.

19. Originally Posted by Varlawend
Yes, lol, how did you know? I'm protecting my son ajsindri from big bad internet people.

-thehotelambush's model of types as signed information elements
-Viktor Gulenko: Expanded Model G diagrams (Andrew has some mocking meme on this), DCNH system, Holographic-Panoramic Cognitive Style, probably more besides
-I think Statievskaya has some fractal stuff too, or at least jermofo told me she did. I'm not as familiar with it personally though
Expanded Model G diagrams? That’s the only one I don’t know of.

The other ones I posted. The fractal pic is originally by Strati I believe IIRC. If you reverse Google image search it you should be able to find the original page, though it’s in Russian.

20. Originally Posted by sbbds
Expanded Model G diagrams? That’s the only one I don’t know of.

The other ones I posted. The fractal pic is originally by Strati I believe IIRC. If you reverse Google image search it you should be able to find the original page, though it’s in Russian.
Here is the Gulenko meme lol:

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net...b6&oe=5CF0E496

In all seriousness though, it's also basically the idea of types as signed information elements. Dr. G seems pretty big on fractals in his understanding.

21. Originally Posted by Varlawend
Here is the Gulenko meme lol:

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net...b6&oe=5CF0E496

In all seriousness though, it's also basically the idea of types as signed information elements. Dr. G seems pretty big on fractals in his understanding.
LOL. I like this. Okay, so does that mean that Gulenko has changed his work to match Model B perfectly then, or what is different now still?

22. Originally Posted by sbbds
LOL. I like this. Okay, so does that mean that Gulenko has changed his work to match Model B perfectly then, or what is different now still?
They probably have a lot in common. There might be some epistemological differences because Gulenko uses the idea of TEM in addition to TIM. Also, they probably have many different semantic interpretations which is where Socionics tends to get complicated. But the mathematical aspects should be pretty similar.

23. Originally Posted by Varlawend
They probably have a lot in common. There might be some epistemological differences because Gulenko uses the idea of TEM in addition to TIM. Also, they probably have many different semantic interpretations which is where Socionics tends to get complicated. But the mathematical aspects should be pretty similar.
As far as I know it’s mathemetically the same with the only difference being some of the dyads being marked differently from Model B, such that the socion doesn’t form a continuous lattice with the types from the 4 quadras.

24. In the different models, what types go for EIEs? ESEs? Have ESE/EIE as moth-and-the-flame? Let's say in Model B... Or are most the same as Model A?

25. Originally Posted by sbbds
It's just Model B by Bukalov. I fucking linked it to you a mirrion years ago in our first convos.

Model B = Model A Worked Out to Completion? (PersonalityCafe Thread)

thehotelambush Caught On Early with his "Model A Cube" idea, isomorphic / structurally near identical to it. @thehotelambush

ILE hypercube from Model B:

mRZFAZq.jpg

TIM is a fractal, assholes

Also this is what I meant with "symmetry" @Varlawend . Fuck all Ti devaluers because symmetry is cool lol.
Chill out. This is the lattice of subgroups of the relationship group and isn't model-dependent. Anyone who realizes that the relationships form a group could come up with this.

Originally Posted by jason_m
In the different models, what types go for EIEs? ESEs? Have ESE/EIE as moth-and-the-flame? Let's say in Model B... Or are most the same as Model A?
Any other model of socionics should ideally preserve everything that's valid about Model A, and refine and expand it.

26. What is this? No. I cannot learn this again. I barely understand it now. Why do you do this to me? Oh it gets worse. Now I know there's more models than model A and B. Well, here we go!

+Ni/-Ne
"This function is shared by Gammas and Deltas. It is a perceiving function so it involves the area in which the person projects themselves in. This function is more or less dependent on looking at themselves as "part of the typical mold". They tend to think of the world as a wonderful place in which they can fit in and enjoy the wonderful little eccentricities that the world has to offer. They are people person's, who are usually loyal and do not like to step on the toes of people. There is a certain level of confidence projected in this, as they feel like the world is a wonderful place in which they are a part of. Enemy of the alternate route(unless the alternate route is something that catches on in the social world). This doesn't mean they aren't creative, just don't like to project change into something they believe is beautiful and wonderful already. "

Bout right. Explains my passive outlook on things, along with the "dormancy". I doubt that contrarionism would bother me either, because that's also part of the material world, which is mighty fine.

-Ni/+Ne

A function that is shared by Alphas and Betas. It is a perceiving function so it involves the area in which the person projects themselves in. Typically enjoys "breaking the mold". Looks at the world as uninteresting and too normal/static. Individualistic, usually believing that they have the potential to be better than the average and mediocre. This does not necessarily mean that they don't have groups of friends and do not like to fit in sometimes(more of a demeanor). Not exactly stable, possibly going in repetitious patterns between aggressive and withdrawn(possibly due to confidence issues). Looks at the world as a tool to reach the higher self, the more creative self. Can be overly selfish given the right circumstances.

Compare mother. Sadly. The kind of person who argues old people shouldn't be allowed to drive, even though ample evidence is available that young people and drunk drivers cause more accidents, however refuses to check because "doesn't trust the internet." Also has problems accepting people are failable. Constantly complains about people parking wrong. It's a fun time in the car.

Still, she's a bunch more altruistic than I am, at least at the moment.

Huh, I rechecked, and
"The number one cause of car accidents is not a criminal that drove drunk, sped or ran a red light. Distracted drivers are the top cause of car accidents in the U.S. today. A distracted driver is a motorist that diverts his or her attention from the road, usually to talk on a cell phone, send a text message or eat food."

Unsurprisingly, old people weren't even on the list. Unsurprisingly, drunk driving was number three. Teen drivers are number eight. Sleepiness is actually pretty low, er high, at 20/25. I had a guy crash into my Uncle's hedges because he fell asleep. I was sitting in the couch, and didn't even see the thing. He was a doctor or nurse, and was on the night shift, so he was tired.

Another common family belief is that driving slower is more dangerous. Also not on the list. Why would driving slowly increase your odds for an accident? It would increase time to react, and decrease damage done to a car or person if there was an accident.

They do get tailgating right, which is number 14.

https://seriousaccidents.com/legal-a...car-accidents/

It was inevitable.

Still have no idea what the chart means.

+Fi/-Fe

This is the dualized function of -Ti/+Te; which means there is a direct relationship between how they work. This function maintains the logical uncertainty of -Ti/+Te, but brings it into the field of subjective emotions towards certain objects or areas. Usually this results in a lack of subjective emotional "rules" in which to base their subjective emotions upon. This usually results in "universalism". These people have a hard time creating a emotional database of things that they like or dislike completely. This usually results in people that value this function attempting to treat everyone equal without submitting to one philosophy or another(because of the human aspect of things, this will not always be 100% accurate; more of a demeanor). This sometimes can create problems for people with this function because they are unwilling to bend to the will of one person while leaving another stranded.

Heh, you want to know why I'm not a communist? Essentially because other people told me not to be.

Fi/+Fe

A dualized function based on +Ti/-Te, which means there is a direct relationship with how they work. The same standard that existed in the logical side of this function are brought into the subjective emotional world. This usually results in a flaw finding demeanor, in which they are looking for a perfected version of the object of desire. Problem with this function is it can(note the word can) cause relationship issues due to the person's inability to accept flaws. For some this may result in the person trying to correct their spouse, in others possibly a complete disconnection/break up. Romantics who constantly dream for the perfect person to come along.

Heh. Not I, but my little brother. He's a noted nag to pretty much everyone. I'm not discussing that here. This is becoming too long a comentary. Also, I disagree with the premise. There is no perfect person designed for you because actions lead to results. So waiting and doing nothing will only work if there is already someone there who is interested. What actually works is trying to make the two cogs fit, assuming mutual attraction.

-Ti/+Te: Alphas and Deltas use this functional continuum. It is a judging function, meaning that the role of this set of functions isn't so much the area of information that they are using, but more how they deal with the information. The functions main basis is reductionism(not in a philosophical context). The function involves breaking information down. Above all else, the function is a purifier, always looking at the whys and hows; trying to find some sort of explanation to the phenomenon that they are presented with. Because of this, they have a hard time "accepting" information provided as a standard. This is especially true in the case of Alphas(I'll get to this later). In certain contexts, can create awkwardness and social angst due to an inability to accept social decorum as a standard.

+Ti/-Te: Betas and Gammas use this functional continuum. It is a judging function so it doesn't have anything to do with the area of expertise. The functions involves common sense intelligence. This function attempts to find the "proper" way to do something; using the social decorum and repetitious logic as a backbone for solving problems. They usually believe there is a right way to proceed; and this right way is usually based upon a pattern of accepting certain standards.

Well, that's screwy. Now I need to pick one. I'll get back to you in five months.

Well, five months was relatively quick. I'll pretend that I am indeed ILI, and that I am thus +Ti, because everything else makes sense. Repetitious logic is indeed the way. You don't know how often I regurgetate facts. My-knowlege puke is always the same colors, too. So uh, yeah. I'll leave with that kenning.

+Se/-Si

Dualized function based on +Ni/-Ne, which means it has a direct relationship. Brings the philosophical energy of the intuitive dualized function into the material world. Static, stabilizing energy. Usually having a lot of willpower because of their loyal belief into their mission following the energy of the social decorum. Wins battles by sticking to the plan. Easily socializes, genuinely feels at one with everyone else.

-Se/+Si

Dualized function based on -Ni/+Ne. Brings philosophical energy of the intuitive function into the material world. Aggression, creative energy. Usually has a strong desire to be different, and goes head first into it. Can be rather bi-polaresqe with their energy patterns, the massive amounts of energy they put into their creative work can often not be sustained. Often at times finds hidden energy to bring themselves to another level. Can be rather eccentric with their believes and how they express them. In certain scenarios can be selfish, always wanting to get over the average results.

Implied +Se/-Si, so yeah, feeling of ease with the world does come at times, however, now is not that time. It's a social thing. I had it earlier, but I lost it, probably because of my fun skateboarding times. And I'm not going to reference that "at one with the world" garbage that the Greeks invented.

Anyways, final thoughts. This is easier for me to understand than model A. No dealing with the feeling of passion vs the ability to categorize things quickly and other esoteric stuff that doesn't make sense without a level 6 degree in introspection and reading comprehension of which there are only 5 degrees possible to the general public without dedicated study. Quality. Yes, that is a terrible joke.

27. study the basic theory and how to use it

28. Originally Posted by thehotelambush
Chill out.
n0

29. Originally Posted by thehotelambush
Chill out. This is the lattice of subgroups of the relationship group and isn't model-dependent. Anyone who realizes that the relationships form a group could come up with this.
Do you think I should change the title of the chart to something like "Intertype Relation Subgroups and Left Cosets of Type Groups"? I thought the intertype relation connection would be self evident, and I was really interested in the cosets, but people seem to not be getting the message.

30. Originally Posted by ajsindri
Do you think I should change the title of the chart to something like "Intertype Relation Subgroups and Left Cosets of Type Groups"? I thought the intertype relation connection would be self evident, and I was really interested in the cosets, but people seem to not be getting the message.
The image title is just as it should be - "Subgroup lattice...". I think what is confusing people is the rest of the post - "lattice" without any qualifier could mean a lot of other things.

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