Masculinization of woman

[Eliza Thomason]

"One is not born a genius, one becomes a genius; and the feminine situation has up to the present rendered this becoming practically impossible."

"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."

Right on.

[End]

Right on.

Shots fired. Though I would say that is not nor will ever be a "woman" in point of fact...

I mean, the only way you get a manjaw that manly is either by being an actual man or somehow surviving a rather severe steroid overdose at age 9 without modern medical tech. I pity the poor girl in the later case, for she almost certainly didn't consent to the experiment. That "thing" did I am most certain sadly...

[Eliza Thomason]

Shots fired. Though I would say that is not nor will ever be a "woman" in point of fact...

I mean, the only way you get a manjaw that manly is either by being an actual man or somehow surviving a rather severe steroid overdose at age 9 without modern medical tech. I pity the poor girl in the later case, for she almost certainly didn't consent to the experiment. That "thing" did not I am most certain...

Yes, the more convincing transgender looks come when one starts much younger, before the age of consent, as you say. Such abuse of children makes me deeply sad and I wish them all as good a life as possible. Power and fame seems to be a reward, but what an empty one it must be.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Right on.

Could you explain what the intent behind your post was?

[Eliza Thomason]

Could you explain what the intent behind your post was?

Ah, we are on the same page! I wonder about your intent sometimes, too. Well I had only just come up with that picture for another post for you, and then I saw this thread with "masculine" and "women" in the topic - a coincidence since that is what I just wrote to you about. I skimmed through it, and my eye went right to your lower quote - so I reused the picture, because it was funny. (Funny because it was literal, while your statement was likely more esoteric).

Hope that helps.

[Aylen]

Ah, we are on the same page! I wonder about your intent sometimes, too. Well I had only just come up with that picture for another post for you, and then I saw this thread with "masculine" and "women" in the topic - a coincidence since that is what I just wrote to you about. I skimmed through it, and my eye went right to your lower quote - so I reused the picture, because it was funny. (Funny because it was literal, while your statement was likely more esoteric).

Hope that helps.

Not related to your post here but since I saw you I wanted to ask something. Did you realize that according to Filatova, at least, EII is called "The Psychologist" and IEE "The Initiator"? I found that interesting since I have seen you and others refer to IEE as the psychologist. I believe Strat and Meged both use the term "The Psychologist" for IEE. Not sure who started it.

The book also calls all NFs Humanists not just EII.

The book also says IEE have little respect for social norms and if you ask them to stand on their head or draw a crocodile they will do it. Is that true?

This is a description of the general appearance. Do you relate?


https://www.amazon.com/Understanding...sr=1-1-catcorr

[Eliza Thomason]

Aylen, I relate to some, so I will take it a bit of a time with what you wrote, and look at it in pieces. I think it is not so hard for an IEE to talk about herself, so thanks for the invite.

[I have been intensely car-shopping these past weeks for the best possible buy on a car, on a tight budget at a bad time financially to need a car, but I do need one, and we are in the homestretch having signed papers today (my son is driving down to FL on spring break to get it), and this is a refreshingly different thing to think about after intensely immersing in car-world for too long!]

[The thorough, long answers here are based on the supposition that the psychologist/humanist aspect of the NF of your INFp might find it interesting...]

Not related to your post here but since I saw you I wanted to ask something. Did you realize that according to Filatova, at least, EII is called "The Psychologist" and IEE "The Initiator"? I found that interesting since I have seen you and others refer to IEE as the psychologist. I believe Strat and Meged both use the term "The Psychologist" for IEE. Not sure who started it.

I particularly am drawn to Meged's work of all those you mentioned, and have not been particularly drawn to the others except something Strat wrote I think on psychological issues of types.... I have heard before of EII referred to as Psychologist, but I didn't know this was from Filatova. When I think of my close EII friend, I can see how she could be called Psychologist, but in a different way than me. I would say the depth of my psychological understanding goes deep to a broader range of people, and hers goes deeper in a small range, particularly those in her very close circle. She seems to have a very functional understanding of those in her family and day to day life and is great at using psychology on them. Whereas sometimes my understanding of others does not seem that functional - it's just understanding.

I should also say when my EII friend got her nursing degree, they thought she excelled in her psychiatric ward rotation, which did not surprise me.

As to the term "Initiator", I don't relate to that super quickly but don't discount it either. Especially at various times in the past, in reflection, I have felt there has been a pattern of my lacking initiation in relationships, acting more often as a responder the majority of the time, like, it seems so many of my friendships happen because someone else reached out and I responded. Some of my closest friends over the years would be the EII friend I mentioned - I think she decided we would be friends after meeting me. She is a family member by marriage and I would say an EII, once they "pick" you, is a true friend indeed. Also my LSE friend best friend in high school initiated our friendship, a penpal friend I had that I met on vacation when I was a child was a friendship she initiated, two close ESE friends, one in high school and one in college were initiated by them and I responded, and back in college it seems I dated SLEs a lot, because they are such initiators. I also dated 2 SLI's; these were lightly but sweetly lovely exclusive romantic relationships and in both cases they initiated it and also they played a role in the context I met them in as an experienced confident/leader in the area we were in. And my first husband was ESE, was initiator, and I responded. I guess also I have been very much an initiator in my own life; I make things happen as far as what I think I should be doing. I feel like I do initiating in my relationship/marriage/life with my SLI husband, more than ever in my life, especially because he supports that.

So for that term I have mixed reviews!

[Warning, what follows is a long sidetrack...]

Back to dating... I feel women have a sort of drawing power, and I remember avoiding gazes, in order to not draw attention when I hadn't thought it through that I wanted attention (or did not return the interest, I suppose). Because in returning the gaze, just even briefly before looking away, it seems one can psychologically draw the object of one's interest to you, just with your heart or inner longing, even if you do not look at them again. I remember at a certain time of my life being enamoured with the realization of this phenomena, and I began to feel as if the world was my oyster, and then, realizing something was wrong with this, and that I was ashamed of this, in that one can lead others to hope where it is none, and I came to a realization that I had been drawing others to me just for my own ego, not for what was good for them. I repented of this, and began a habit that still lingers of avoiding much direct eye contact to strangers of the opposite sex... Perhaps this was enforced when I married my first husband, not wanting anyone to think I was single or available.

So avoiding gazes became a habit, and also my first confession to a Priest, before entering the Catholic Church, as an adult, included confessing of and repenting for those earlier times when i felt I purposely drew persons of the opposite sex to me not because I loved, but because I loved to be loved. I see that as a form of using a people. [Is drawing others to you, in a womanly fashion, so that you can then respond, really "initiating"?].

Fast forward to many years later, after years of being married to an oppressive man and walking on eggshells all those years, after the trauma of that and the heightened trauma of divorce and the challenges of beings a single mom, to a stellar day, a big turning point, a before/after sort of day - the day Jesus healed me, the day He made me whole. The method of His healing was 4 hours of extensive and intensive deliverance prayer between a minister and me, led by this minister for this purpose, prayers to heal all past hurts and stresses and traumas - all the way back to birth, and even beyond, to inherited generational sins. All of that was swept away, cleansed away for good, forever, leaving me truly like a whole, new, clean creation. The minister who prayed for me said with a sort of astonishment that I was positively glowing, and I felt it, and was a bit embarrassed but could not hide it. At a brief meeting on the way home I met and fell unexpectedly (it felt almost "against my will") in love with my longtime correspondence friend who is now my husband.

I returned to my state/town, and it must have been days later that I stopped at a gas station and went inside to pay. I still had the glow, I guess, as all of life seemed new and amazingly wonderful, and my heart sang all the time. I remember seeing a man going in also - my age, perhaps, and I do remember looking away or down, avoiding any possible gaze. And when I got inside, in line with others also waiting, the man suddenly began to shout at me and I was struck in shock. Apparently he had opened the door for me and I had not thanked him. This had insulted him deeply, and he was very angry. I sensed he had probably been insulted elsewhere in his life by women/a woman, and had some deep hurt like his wife leaving and/or disrespecting him, and I reminded him of it, like a bad, bad trigger, and he was having it out, all of it out, on me.

Such a shocking event reminds me as I remember it that my often go-to way of being in public, of ignoring others while being too much in my own world, needs to be revised. On the other hand, in a social setting that I am comfortable in for whatever reason, I become, as you describe below, one who can "... socialize easily, giving the impression they are always ready for precarious adventures, new acquaintances, and exciting encounters".

The book also calls all NFs Humanists not just EII.

I can see that. Just different reflections and focuses of humanists.

The book also says IEE have little respect for social norms and if you ask them to stand on their head or draw a crocodile they will do it. Is that true?

LOL. Only sort of. If I felt like standing on my head and drawing a crocodile I just would. Other times I do not want to draw attention to myself. I would have to feel the good will of the people around me to let my guard down. I feel like generally I do care about social norms and like to fit in. I relax more in a small group.

This is a description of the general appearance. Do you relate?
The initiators air implies some kind of gaiety

Yes, this can be me at times, when i am engaged in the gathering, to be sure.

They don't restrain their emotions

I definitely have a hard time masking my emotions especially particularly when they take me by surprise. There are too many times when I see people's eyes responding with recognition and interest in seeing exactly what I am feeling when I would prefer to not be seen and not be read, and I know its my own fault for letting it show (not that I can help it) on my face. Yet I would say that OFTEN I restrain my emotions, at least when i am able, because I would rather deal with them on my own (get alone and figure them out because half the time I do not understand them when they come upon me) than deal with them in front of others. I guess I prefer to be candid and open - until I wish I was closed and unreadable.

their face is attractive due to merry, dancing eyes

Yes, I see this, as my smile is complimented a lot. (I don't remember that so much as a child. I think I was a plain child and unexpectedly blossomed in adolescence). Editing to add: yes, it is probably most often when I smile or am happy that I am told I am attractive and the rest of the time I am more ordinary.

Initiators socialize easily, giving the impression they are always ready for precarious adventures, new acquaintances, and exciting encounters

I am not always like this, but I can definitely be fully like this at times.

Women of this psychological type love bright jewelry

I would not say that phrase of myself, but I could make a different, yet similar statement about me and jewelry. (Though I don't wear as much jewelry now, as I have developed an increasing love of simplicity). You could say I have a love of jewelry that I discover to be exactly what I think is beautiful or my style. I a enamoured when i find a piece that beautiful and "exactly me". I always prefer just a very few pieces, just one two or three things that are just right. Same with my color palate in general. I am more particular and choosy about colors and textures than anyone I know, and maybe also drape; I enjoy putting thought into the harmony of that. Yet one would no one would describe me as a sophisticated dresser, or a striking one, just as no one would describe my style or my jewelry as flamboyant or "bright"). And I do dress "forgetfully" sometimes, as they say of IEE.

plump African lips and wide spherical eyes

LOL! I can see how that might be a bit IEE, and it makes me think of the description of my (Kibbe's) style-type, which is "Soft Classic" (or probably "Charismatics Soft Classic" (basically a Classic with Romantic added) The physical description of my type is described as sometimes with fuller lips and larger eyes. But my features are more classically sized and proportioned, with a woman's typically somewhat smaller eyes (not small, just smaller than men's), and when not smiling they are roundish (my cheek apples when smiling push them up and change the shape a bit). My lips are not plumply African, and also not thin, more just regular proportion. In young womanhood I was often considered rather pretty, and I suppose at times I still am, though I was never a great beauty by any means. Once, in a new dorm after just transferring colleges (at a time when i surely looked my best, a lovely time I fondly remember, that I never had again, when I spent five full mornings a week taking dance classes), I had some black suitemates who kept to themselves and seemed to desire or be more comfortable only with black friends (or, maybe my quiet ways, which were cultural, from my family life, put them off), and I had just stepped out of the shower, in the bathroom, and one of those girls was there and staring at me in a studied way in the mirror, and then she said in a blunt, candid way - not to be mean, but just saying her thoughts quite openly - something like, "Why, you're just normal!" Sort of like it was a disappointing discovery? As in - not a great beauty! And I thought, well, yes I am. Only at times, I could seem more. And I guess that was for her a moment of seeing the truth.

Initiators can keep a group of friendly contacts around them, keeping pleasant open relations.

Well, I guess I can, and I need to remember that this is me, and that to do this is important to me, and so I need to remember to initiate the work to make it happen. But there is also this other side of me that is the reserved one, the side that probably made those suitemates in college feel I was an off-putting person, maybe. Sometimes I am just too focused on myself and the challenges I am currently faced with. Like, last year at this time I was suddenly in a position as a teacher in a school for a semester and the other teacher in my department was new, too, only arriving a month before me, similar in age, just a few years older. Like me she was starting back after raising a child/children, and it was a very challenging school and a very challenging position to come into chaos in the middle of a year into a mess of a classroom (we replaced just-retired teachers who were long overdue for retirement) at a school notorious for behavior challenges. I was intensely focused on the job at hand, and, in that, I must have been off-putting to my colleague, at least this one, without realizing it. Boy, did she give me the cold shoulder. She also buddied with the part-timers in our department who came in to teach a class each while she was free and I was not, and I know she spoke disdainfully of me to them because I could "feel" it, and her baffling dislike (not spelled out, just heavy in the air) was a deeply painful daily cross to bear. I just shouldered it and carried on. We did need to interact sometimes. Well, sometime in the last month or more, suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, she did a complete about-face. She showed enthusiastic interest in me, and genuine camaraderie. At first is was so astounding it was hard to trust, but I did accept her new friendliness. And suddenly we were (on certain occasions) co-teaching our classes, where we had the classes competing in games (these were her ideas but they were good ones and I got on board). Since we had never talked about her dislike, I never talked about her new "like", but once I must have of alluded to it and she interjected enthusiastically, "You grew on me!". So, other than that being a mystery, what I did learn from it is that I can be off-putting by probably being too closed-off and ignoring of others when I am too much into myself or whatever I am immersed in, and I need to check that around people. (To excuse myself, the position was a huge challenge that I poured myself into).

I hope you are in the mood for a long, thorough answer to your Q's. But I think you read fast and can handle it!