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Thread: Tax the Catholic Church

  1. #41
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Nope. Not better for the age - that's why I clarified: "Just as horrible as child molestation". Just - all bad.

    As far as homosexuality being to blame, I am not thinking of blaming at all, just it's obvious it has something significant to do with it. What, I cannot say with any experiential or scholarly knowledge. I do not understand the problem, I only know the connection is significant (obviously!). I have no conclusions, only a desire (like everyone else) to get to the root of the problem so it can be fixed. I would like understanding. And on that note, I had it on my mind today to run some Q's/seek comment of a forum member here about this, who is a person who openly professes to be a practicing homosexual and who is also a person I perceive to be truthful -- and I probably will sometime, but I am in the thick of many things, including job applications and interviews to prepare for while I also work a busy schedule... so I might not get to my questions too quick, which aren't even fully formulated in my mind at this point, til things settle down a bit with me]. But what I am saying is, when the statistics are that overboard [even more overboard than the overboard statistical 80-85%, considering that, according to long-popular and much-touted statistics, only 10% of the priests should be homosexuals], and when you are "investigating" the problem to get to the root of it, and refuse to address the biggest most blaring statistical fact, and also get the media to help you mask the fact, then it is evident that you love/idolize something OTHER than the truth, as a large percentage of our leaders have recently made perfectly clear, by systematically refusing to make ANY reference to such blaring and irrefutable facts.





    The Holy Church (by that I mean that actual bride of Christ, the actual teaching of the Church - not corrupt people and leaders in it who choose to live in opposition of the Church, by their own rules) does not condemn a man's natural attraction to men, but expects him to live his life chastely, as any Catholic is called to, and expects a priest to live the chaste AND celibate* life he vows himself to live (and if he breaks his vow, like anyone else who breaks a vow, he is to repent). [There are exceptions even in the Roman rite, for example, already married men who are ordained, and then he is not expected to have a celibate marriage, but a normal one]. It's not that hard to be celibate. Particularly and especially because God gives us all the supernatural graces we need to do His will. ALL of them. So if one, for any reason, particularly needs a LOT of supernatural grace in order to be chaste as God calls him to, then God will give him ALL the heaps of grace he needs.

    EVERYONE is called to live chastely in the context of their place in life. A priest chooses to make a vow of chastity when he becomes a priest. No one is making him become a priest. He has years of discernment to decide this before he makes his vows of chaste celibacy for life, and is encouraged to bow out if he feels it is not for him.

    This chaste life is the teaching of God, not a teaching created by a democracy. So we don't get to say, "Gee, God, I don't like that one, so we are going to vote on another way to think about that." It's not about what feels right to us. "There is a way which seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." God's ways are not our ways. What seems fine to us is not always fine for us, according to the One Who created and designed us and knows us and loves us more deeply than any human can ever know or love us. His reasons are perfect and based on His unfathomable love for us and His omniscience. So when he says all sex belongs only in marriage, between one man and one woman, it's a perfect law** from the One Who is perfectly loving, merciful and just.

    People aren't forced to be Catholic, but, no matter the sacrifice of any desires, vices, previously cherished activities, or habits, people will also choose, over and above all those loves, to be Catholic, and they will keep choosing Catholic, until the end of time, because Jesus, and the Church He founded to give us more of Him, is a pearl of great price, worth giving up everything for.



    Yes, certainly - for a devout Catholic. It should and has been a place for a young man to experience true fatherhood and brotherhood as God designed it, which he may have not experienced in his own life previously. But devout Catholics of any orientation have been unwelcome and turned out of seminaries for some decades (that is, since the 50's, at least). In more recent years, the last decade or two, the tide has been turning, and once again devout men are finding and keeping their places in the seminaries). But the kind of men you mention here were victims of a planned infiltration of the Church by those who are trying to ruin it (they won't, but She is suffering) , and many seminarians have been groomed before they even got there and/or were preyed upon when in seminary, while good and devout men with a true vocation were systematically weeded out.



    The church embraces everyone and recognizes we are ALL in the need of the supernatural grace of God. As to loving, that is what it is all about. Loving is for everyone, and also chastity is for everyone.




    Ug. Well, there always have and always will be sinners. But there have not always been THIS many in the hierarchy. Anyway, we have had altar girls since Vatican 2 - a long, long time ago. I think the altar boy/girls conclusion is a guess of yours, not based on extensive knowledge of the cases? Yes, it has been part of the grooming in some cases, and grooming has been an issue in most or all of those overwhelmingly pederast cases, and the bigger issue is, what is the story behind the worldwide exact-same grooming techniques? For that everything points to the systematic infiltration of the St. Gallen Mafia. I heard someone recently comment that we don't have the same sort of intensive investigation into incoming priests as the FBI does... And then again, there is a good case for the fact that it was well-screened, and that the perverts were picked (and promoted) because they WERE perverts... But this is speculation, even if somewhat informed. The root cause needs to be identified, and more rot exposed.

    A popular cultural idea from those outside the church is that natural sexual frustration must be the core of it. Yet, these are unnatural acts against minors (that we all know are wrong, so, we are all outraged), therefore this clearly is not a "natural" sexual frustration to be remedied by a natural marriage, as is often suggested - as if a wife was a miracle worker. (People who make this "marriage-as-a-solution" suggestion forget the fact that "pedophiles", as the media likes to refer to them as, are known to never reform!)

    I believe (and I am not alone) that the core problem is that these priests, bishops, and on up, have lost their, or never possessed, supernatural faith. They are therefore powerless to give up their vices, which, like any vice, has them in a grip-hold and runs their life. So they need to fraternize with others who will support their vice, and they need to create a new religion where whatever they feel like doing is a-okay. And they are united in their vigilant and underhanded efforts to try to somehow make this happen - even though it can't, and won't - because the dogma of the Church has never changed and it never can. So while they are doing great damage to the faithful, in the end they will not succeed. And meanwhile there are Catholics all over the world praying and making reparation for these souls lost on "the wide road with the really bad eternal ending", and this is where the REAL power really is. Yes, that holy water and those plastic rosaries - that is truly powerful stuff. So it looks bad now, but God wins in the end.
    ____________
    * You should know a spiritual mystery: that celibacy is not a less-than or a do-without state. There are great, great spiritual graces in the chaste, celibate life.

    **It's God's way, and it's no surprise that all civilizations that uphold this teaching/value rise, and when they dash it aside, so does their civilization with it (it falls). So looking around we can see it does not bode well for our once-great and growing civilization, does it?.
    No matter how you spin it pederast = pedophilia if the victim is a child. I don't understand why you keep wanting to make the distinction. Call it what it is. Where are you getting these statistics you keep mentioning? Some pedophiles are opportunists so would go after boys or girls. Others have a preference for ones sex over the other. An example is a pedophile who is married and has sex with his wife but will abuse young boys. He might even identify as a straight man and truly believe he is. I don't think the church has conspired to bring in pedophiles and turn away chaste men. I can't get on board with some of these way out there conspiracy theories. I know you have a thing for conspiracy theories and not just related to this. I just don't think that way so we may not be able to see eye to eye on any issue if it always comes down to conspiracy theories like this. My mind goes back to our interactions in the flat earth thread and I don't want a repeat of that. I hope you understand.

    I just assumed there were no altar girls since none of the Greek churches I have attended ever had an altar girl. It has been years since I went into a Greek church but I was in a catholic one when my ex died and they had no altar girls. When I was a small child I remember stepping into an area and an old woman yanked me back and told me that women were not allowed there, not even the priest's wife or daughter.

    I do remember hearing rumors as a kid that one priest in our church, whose wife was dying, began an affair with a younger woman (mid 30s) and I was really disturbed that he would do that because he was married. I was still young enough to think it went against everything I thought priests were meant to be. Before that I thought they had some kind of superpowers that made them special or called. Later I realized, as a whole, they were no different than any other human being. They were just men. No supernatural power to resist temptation. I also realized that those who have studied hard to be priests might have way more understanding of human nature than their congregations and do not believe as strongly, in what they preach, due to the knowledge they possess. I can't put this into the right words...

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  2. #42
    coeruleum's Avatar
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    I think she's trying to blame it on some other culture infiltrating the Catholic Church en masse with the whole "it's not pedophilia, it's pederasty" thing. I've only ever heard pederasty used to mean men in ancient/medieval/tribal cultures openly having sex with pubescent boys to supposedly "bring them to manhood." I don't think anyone even does that anymore except some uncontacted tribes in Africa or Australia. Basically some kind of pagan conspiracy from the outside to bring down the Church I think. That's an excuse to not reform the Church if there ever was one. "Oh, it's not that the Church's structures are defunct and causing Catholic men to fall into error/attracting individual sinners, it's that the Church is being infiltrated by pagan rapists!"

    Your Church's institutions need updating and you're not being infiltrated by pagan rapists. Get over it.
    “Don't think money does everything or you are going to end up doing everything for money.” ― Voltaire

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    The Only EII In This Part Of The Internet Subteigh's Avatar
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    According to the gospels, Jesus spent long periods of time out in the wilderness with his disciples, only of whom was older than the age of 13+ years when they were liable to pay tax.

    Regardless of how questionable such activity may seem, at least Jesus and Peter did pay their fair share of tax and didn't engage in weekly cannibalism.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    No matter how you spin it pederast = pedophilia if the victim is a child.
    The "spin" is pretending "boys, girls, what is the difference? It's all just abuse." while refusing to acknowledge an outstandingly stark pattern. That is the spin the cardinals and bishops responsible gort the cover-up on it, with the cooperation of the media.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I don't understand why you keep wanting to make the distinction..
    Because the distinction is an overwhelmingly significant fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Where are you getting these statistics you keep mentioning?
    Repeatedly from sources that are trusted to tell the facts. If you are interested in finding the exact source yourself, it should be easy to find. But if you do have trouble finding it, Lifesite News is a completely reliable news source. You can count on them to have all their sources thoroughly and faithfully documented. Look there.

    I have am burning both ends of the candle right now so I cannot do that for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Some pedophiles are opportunists so would go after boys or girls. Others have a preference for ones sex over the other. An example is a pedophile who is married and has sex with his wife but will abuse young boys. He might even identify as a straight man and truly believe he is..
    Yes, sin comes in every flavor. : (

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I don't think the church has conspired to bring in pedophiles and turn away chaste men. .
    But the fact is, it systematically has. I linked you Michael Roses book in the post you are commenting on, in cases you wanted evidence. You can just read the Amazon comments and reviews in the link for a quick overview. I wouldn't say this without support. It's just a reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I can't get on board with some of these way out there conspiracy theories..
    It's not a conspiracy. It's a published, verifiable facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I know you have a thing for conspiracy theories and not just related to this..
    Oh really? I guess that is supposed to be an insult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I just don't think that way so we may not be able to see eye to eye on any issue if it always comes down to conspiracy theories like this.
    I don't know why you WANT it to be a conspiracy theory, but wishing it were one does not make it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    My mind goes back to our interactions in the flat earth thread and I don't want a repeat of that. I hope you understand..
    Not really, nor do I understand why that has anything to do with this. You don't make sense,.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I just assumed there were no altar girls since none of the Greek churches I have attended ever had an altar girl. It has been years since I went into a Greek church but I was in a catholic one when my ex died and they had no altar girls. When I was a small child I remember stepping into an area and an old woman yanked me back and told me that women were not allowed there, not even the priest's wife or daughter..
    okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I do remember hearing rumors as a kid that one priest in our church, whose wife was dying, began an affair with a younger woman (mid 30s) and I was really disturbed that he would do that because he was married. I was still young enough to think it went against everything I thought priests were meant to be. Before that I thought they had some kind of superpowers that made them special or called.
    Well yes. Also Catholics were shocked that clergy in the very highest positions of the church are abusers and liars and have habitual despicable ways of deceitful living and speaking. Because like you we still mistakenly assume their holiness because in their positions they are called to be. Hypocrisy is offensive. I guess it's the same sort of shock when a teacher or doctor is unprofessional or abusive, or a parent is unloving or abusive..[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Later I realized, as a whole, they were no different than any other human being. They were just men. No supernatural power to resist temptation.
    They might excuse them themselves that way. However, the real superpower is there for them, as it is for all of us, to become the super holy people. I guess that's why it's especially shocking because in spite of the temptations of power (power corrupts) we know they have the supernatural power available to be holy. We have so many of examples from princes of the church, even princes of the world like King Louis the IX who in spite of the perks of power, still yet lived exemplarily holy lives. So we know the esteem we placed on these many is attainable. We just mistakenly assume they attained it. That was foolish on our part. Because God doesn't help anyone against their will. One has to will to be helped. And surprise, surprise - some people choose a life of sin instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I also realized that those who have studied hard to be priests might have way more understanding of human nature than their congregations and do not believe as strongly, in what they preach, due to the knowledge they possess.
    Well yes. That is a reasonable expectation. It should work that way most of the time. Also think of Judas Iscariot who had the most perfect, most loving, and the only omniscient teacher in the entire world. And still he chose sin and worldly esteem over God's friendship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I can't put this into the right words...
    I really gave it my best, and put in quite a bit of time and effort to answer fairly and truthfully, but I guess some things are emotionally hard to accept, or they might threaten views you hold dear. I get it. That happens to me, too.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    I thought about it and I decided do not tax the church. I don’t even attend church. Just let them be, the Government does not need every piece of the pie in this world. We are smart monkeys after all, citizens second. Let people do something without commiting to the Establishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    I thought about it and I decided do not tax the church. I don’t even attend church. Just let them be, the Government does not need every piece of the pie in this world. We are smart monkeys after all, citizens second. Let people do something without commiting to the Establishment.
    The church invests its wealth and is not taxed. Everyone else invests and is taxed. The church has a consistently higher rate of return than everyone else.
    If you have two groups of bacteria growing at different rates in a Petrie dish, which one eventually takes over the dish?

    The increasing inequality in wealth in our society has been purposefully, misleadingly attributed to many factors, but careful economic studies have found that it has only one true source, and that source is the reduction of taxes on the rich.

    Maybe you’ve noticed it, maybe you haven’t, but for the past 40 years the Republicans have been promising people one thing or another, but they only seem to actually accomplish one thing; to reduce taxes on the rich. Funny how that seems to keep happening, isn’t it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The church invests its wealth and is not taxed. Everyone else invests and is taxed. The church has a consistently higher rate of return than everyone else.
    If you have two groups of bacteria growing at different rates in a Petrie dish, which one eventually takes over the dish?

    The increasing inequality in wealth in our society has been purposefully, misleadingly attributed to many factors, but careful economic studies have found that it has only one true source, and that source is the reduction of taxes on the rich.

    Maybe you’ve noticed it, maybe you haven’t, but for the past 40 years the Republicans have been promising people one thing or another, but they only seem to actually accomplish one thing; to reduce taxes on the rich. Funny how that seems to keep happening, isn’t it?
    No I know all that stuff, I just don’t care. There are other things that trip my sense of fairness. Not everything needs to burn and be rebuilt in some perfected System. Usually I cannot stand hypocrisy, but this I could not care a less about.

    By all means tax the rich though, within reason, they are people too and what is their’s is their’s. I have a brother who went from lowermiddle class, into the highest tax bracket. I get it. Paying 25-30G in taxes is a painful pill to swallow.

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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    This reminds me I have to do my taxes soon.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    The Only EII In This Part Of The Internet Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Well yes. Also Catholics were shocked that clergy in the very highest positions of the church are abusers and liars and have habitual despicable ways of deceitful living and speaking. Because like you we still mistakenly assume their holiness because in their positions they are called to be. Hypocrisy is offensive. I guess it's the same sort of shock when a teacher or doctor is unprofessional or abusive, or a parent is unloving or abusive..
    You'd probably have to go back at least 40 years to find an especially objectionable Pope.

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    I'll just pop in to say that taxing any religious institution is entirely idiotic and reprehensible. Such an idea can only come from the minds of those who are so ingrained in the blind materialism of our time that they can no longer see the inherent beauty and sincerity of religious striving. Churches (with the exception of the parasitic megachurches of charismatic scammers) do not function like businesses in any manner.
    The RCC in particular is idiotic to target for two reasons:
    1) Parishes function independently and are reliant on the tithes of their parishioners (this is shared with all other churches)
    2) The RCC governs itself from the sovereign state of the Vatican, so taxing parishes would be tantamount to taxing a foreign embassy.

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    Not so idiotic if you follow the teachings of the lord and savior of Catholicism or whatever religions you follow. I still would rather see Scientology taxed since it is obviously some kind of cult.

    In Matthew 17:24-27, we learn that Jesus did indeed pay taxes:

    After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
    "Yes, he does," he replied.
    When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?"
    "From others," Peter answered.
    "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours." (NIV)

    The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke each tell of another account, when the Pharisees tried to trap Jesus in his words, and find a reason to accuse him. In Matthew 22:15-22, we read:


    Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
    But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
    "Caesar's," they replied.
    Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
    When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away. (NIV)​


    This same incident is also recorded in Mark 12:13-17 and Luke 20:20-26.


    Submit to Governing Authorities

    People complained about paying taxes even in Jesus’ time. The Roman Empire, which had conquered Israel, imposed a heavy financial burden to pay for its army, road system, courts, temples to the Roman gods, and for the emperor’s personal wealth. Nevertheless, the Gospels leave no doubt that Jesus taught his followers not only in words but by example, to give to the government any taxes that are owed.


    In Romans 13:1, Paul brings further clarification to this concept, along with an even broader responsibility to Christians:


    "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." (NIV)


    We can conclude from this verse that if we don't pay taxes, we are rebelling against the authorities established by God.


    Romans 13:2 gives this warning:


    "Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." (NIV)


    Regarding the paying of taxes, Paul couldn't make it any clearer than he did in Romans 13:5-7:


    Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (NIV)


    Peter also taught that believers should submit to governing authorities:


    For the Lord’s sake, submit to all human authority—whether the king as head of state, or the officials he has appointed. For the king has sent them to punish those who do wrong and to honor those who do right.
    It is God’s will that your honorable lives should silence those ignorant people who make foolish accusations against you.For you are free, yet you are God’s slaves, so don’t use your freedom as an excuse to do evil. (1 Peter 2:13-16, NLT)


    https://www.thoughtco.com/bible-on-paying-taxes-700647
    It is just as materialistic to not pay your taxes while investing more money than you use to help others, isn't it? If an institution, religious or otherwise, is actually spending more to help people than it does to build their influence and power in the world then I think it is reasonable not to tax them. I don't know enough about the Catholic church to say if this is the case.

    The RCC in particular is idiotic to target for two reasons:
    1) Parishes function independently and are reliant on the tithes of their parishioners (this is shared with all other churches)
    2) The RCC governs itself from the sovereign state of the Vatican, so taxing parishes would be tantamount to taxing a foreign embassy.
    We tax businesses that operate in the US but are based in other countries so what is the difference really?

    If you give to your church then turn around and take a tax write off that is materialistic too. It is giving with an expectation of some kind of benefit.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Not only do churches avoid tax, when they run charities, they generally run them far less efficiently than comparable secular charities.

    Of course if churches actually paid their fair share of tax, it would reduce the burden of all citizens, and give them more disposable income to dispose of as they please.

    All too common you not only see religious institutions thinking they have a god-given right to not pay their fair share of tax, they think they have a god-given right to harbour those who have committed crimes.

    If religious institutions wish to excuse themselves from tax on spiritual grounds, it would be easier to believe their sincerity if they followed the words attributed to Jesus: “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

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    This is a sad issue. Many of these guys are gay, not that it matters in and of itself - abusers are abusers, but their sexuality got warped/perverted into something 'bad' by society their entire lives, and so they then can only get their fulfillment by molesting boys. Gotta remember a lot of these priests are old, and culturally speaking treating homosexuals like we are fully dimensional human beings is still a fairy new concept sadly. So they most likely grew up in a time during major repression, and sought out to be religious to escape their own homosexual feelings as well as society's persecution. ((and if they could't 'cure it' it was the perfect place to hide dark desires.)) Does it excuse what they did. Of course not. But it might help give some insight why they do the things they do. I just get tired of people treating pedophiles like they are campy demons with horns, like simplistically evil. A few of them might be, sure. But hurt people hurt. When your inner childhood is wounded beyond repair, you are sadly gonna do the same thing to others.

    Normally of course, touching a child or anybody that can't consent is gross. Its not naturally even erotic. Kids smell worse than adults. It is objective. Nobody in their right minds would want to molest one... but yeah something in them gets warped/corrupted. If you were told your entire life you were gross/sick/wrong , it's not surprising then to turn into a monster when you grow up. Yeah the younger generation of homosexuals don't really 'get it' that much, and the 30-something/middle age homosexuals only half way get it, as our sexuality is pretty much integrated into mainstream society and we are not victims any more. But a lot of these priests were.

    And yeah I agree that treating a 13 year old the same as a five or six year old about sexuality issues is really stupid, when American society does this. But a line needs to be drawn somewhere....and the legal age is fine with me. At 13 I wanted sex, and was pretty pervy naturally even before anybody showed me anything. I still don't think it would be right to have real sex with an older guy then (and I didn't) but its like society completely ignored this about me because it made them uncomfortable and tried to criminalize natural urges every hormonal 13-year-old gay boy probably has lol.

    Sexuality also has a natural tempo to it as well. To be like 'oh your legal age now, time for me to throat fuck you just 'cuz I can!' is also pretty silly and stupid imo. (just to clarify for idiots: I don't think its okay for grown men to have sex with 13 year old boys lol. The adult needs to be the bigger person and say 'no' and explain why it's wrong, even if the horned illegal teenager is coming onto them. Just that when I was 13 I wish people were more understanding and accepting of my feelings for older guys, the primal carnal urges that made society uncomfortable rather than 'I will accept you if you redecorate my furniture in an asexual way!')

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    Fucking heretics I am going to burn you at the stake in the center of Rome where the Pope resides
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You'd probably have to go back at least 40 years to find an especially objectionable Pope.
    Yeah, no. We are already suffering under an especially objectionable one. Pope Commie the Marx Idolater currently rots upon what ought to be the most holy throne. Such is our punishment IMO. It is, after all, the fault of the laity that things got this damned bad. It will be up to us to fix it as a result as well.

    I think we will, but it'll take quite a lot of effort. Oh well, nothing us Gamma types ain't prepared for. Low time preference is kinda our thing, at least from the end...

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Yeah, no. We are already suffering under an especially objectionable one. Pope Commie the Marx Idolater currently rots upon what ought to be the most holy throne. Such is our punishment IMO. It is, after all, the fault of the laity that things got this damned bad. It will be up to us to fix it as a result as well.

    I think we will, but it'll take quite a lot of effort. Oh well, nothing us Gamma types ain't prepared for. Low time preference is kinda our thing, at least from the end...
    I was joking somewhat.

    Of course Francis has his issues concerning female bishops, accepting homosexuality, and his silence during the time of the abuses carried out by the junta in Argentina.

    Of course he might object to those who build walls rather than bridges, but he's a guy who allegedly still believes that it is justified for most of humanity to be tortured for eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Yeah, no. We are already suffering under an especially objectionable one. Pope Commie the Marx Idolater currently rots upon what ought to be the most holy throne. Such is our punishment IMO. It is, after all, the fault of the laity that things got this damned bad. It will be up to us to fix it as a result as well.

    I think we will, but it'll take quite a lot of effort. Oh well, nothing us Gamma types ain't prepared for. Low time preference is kinda our thing, at least from the end...
    Perhaps you would enjoy going back to simpler times, like the holy inquisition? As long as you are sure you would not be labeled a heretic yourself it just might suit you.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Perhaps you would enjoy going back to simpler times, like the holy inquisition? As long as you are sure you would not be labeled a heretic yourself it just might suit you.
    Far as I'm concerned Torquemada dindu nuffin wrong. The Church is indeed in need of a good old fashioned Inquisition to purge itself of the pedos and heretics currently infesting its highest offices. It must be focused internally of course. As the lord himself said, pull out the plank in your own eye before complaining of the mote within the other's eye so to speak.

    I have always seen myself as a good candidate for the Inquisition as well. I'd be merciful enough, but heresy is heresy. Got far too many people worshiping celebrities and pop culture characters instead of actual "gods" (let alone the one true God) as our ancestors understood the term. At least the pagans had something deeper than such passing fads and shallow personalities! If only I could face a horde of true believers in Satan or the Norse Pantheon, of heathens and heretics that I could at least understand! Instead, I face a tide of worshipers of Intersectional Social Justice in one form or another. Gotta say, I feel utterly robbed. Why is my ultimate foe so... pathetic?
    Last edited by End; 03-11-2019 at 04:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    All too common you not only see religious institutions thinking they have a god-given right to not pay their fair share of tax, they think they have a god-given right to harbour those who have committed crimes.
    I would not say harbor in my own case. Pedos and Heretics are birds of a feather, so of course they cover for each other. Fun Fact, a Priest is obligated under pain of excommunication to not tell the cops (or anyone for that matter period) what a person confessed in the confessional no matter how hard they pressure him. This is why that scene is kinda a common thing in older pop culture. You can spill the beans to your local Catholic priest. He won't tell the po-po, your family/closest friends, etc.

    Kinda like why so many prostitutional visits do not result in full on penetrative sex in modern times. Nobody's gonna believe a whore, so you can use one like a type of therapist. Though I will take exception in regards to how you think that religious charities paying taxes would be a good thing. The Gov't Dole is there to buy votes for commies, let's be honest here. A "religious" charity worth it's salt would not give the "mother" of 14 babies by 14 different baby daddies the time of day. Yet our current welfare system does with gusto! I can go into a rant about this topic, but that'd make me guilty of every sin under the intersectional inquisition's purview...

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I would not say harbor in my own case. Pedos and Heretics are birds of a feather, so of course they cover for each other. Fun Fact, a Priest is obligated under pain of excommunication to not tell the cops (or anyone for that matter period) what a person confessed in the confessional no matter how hard they pressure him. This is why that scene is kinda a common thing in older pop culture. You can spill the beans to your local Catholic priest. He won't tell the po-po, your family/closest friends, etc.

    Kinda like why so many prostitutional visits do not result in full on penetrative sex in modern times. Nobody's gonna believe a whore, so you can use one like a type of therapist. Though I will take exception in regards to how you think that religious charities paying taxes would be a good thing. The Gov't Dole is there to buy votes for commies, let's be honest here. A "religious" charity worth it's salt would not give the "mother" of 14 babies by 14 different baby daddies the time of day. Yet our current welfare system does with gusto! I can go into a rant about this topic, but that'd make me guilty of every sin under the intersectional inquisition's purview...
    I am in general disagreement with your post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    I think she's trying to blame it on some other culture infiltrating the Catholic Church en masse with the whole "it's not pedophilia, it's pederasty" thing. I've only ever heard pederasty used to mean men in ancient/medieval/tribal cultures openly having sex with pubescent boys to supposedly "bring them to manhood." I don't think anyone even does that anymore except some uncontacted tribes in Africa or Australia. Basically some kind of pagan conspiracy from the outside to bring down the Church I think. That's an excuse to not reform the Church if there ever was one. "Oh, it's not that the Church's structures are defunct and causing Catholic men to fall into error/attracting individual sinners, it's that the Church is being infiltrated by pagan rapists!"
    Yes you refer to a piece of the history of pederasty but a particular piece of history is not the whole definition of the term. Obviously the practice continues, and existed long before that culture popularized it, with a variety of justifications. But wrong it wrong, whatever the justification or culture.

    You made wrong assumptions about what I think. I am not blaming some "outside culture", but there is an identifiable source blame from systematic infiltration. I would not label this a "cultural infiltration", though yes, a culture has been created as a byproduct, among a portion of clergy (who knows what percent?) and we know this culture has systematic support at the highest levels.

    I was referring to major roots of the problem (systematic infiltration, and hiding truths about the nature of the problem) because those seem major and obvious to me. Of course structural changes need to be addressed as well, and I have heard good discussion on this. For example, that the dioceses that bishops oversee need to be drastically smaller, so that the bishop is in charge of a reasonable amount of people and parishes. No one can oversee 2 million people (or 4 million, like L.A.). I think I heard a discussion of maxing it out at 10K. I think it was said that this current problem is exponentially bigger (by percent of the diocese more likely to have the problem) the larger the diocese.

    At any rate I think truthful discussions based on facts are key. And secret "exclusive Synod" talks clearly are not the solution, but are instead evidence of roots of the problem.

    My major point here is based is based on the term because the term represents the most widespread misrepresentation. Everyone has heard it labeled a ""pedophile problem". Since pedophilia is abuse of children 13 and under (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/c...ons/pedophilia) and over 80% of the victims don't fit in that term, then it's clear that the responsible cardinals and bishops and their cohorts in the media are deliberately misleading with the term pedophilia. That ALL of those over 80% are boys is once again a very major statistical fact that is hidden consistently both whenever the matter is discussed in the media and when the bishops and cardinals met in a recent "investigative" summit/synod, which was a joke and a shame. So a lot of the people who want the truth to come out so the problem can be solved are pretty upset. Facing facts is key to investigating the problem.

    This is very, very painful to me, this whole thing. My Holy Mother, the Church is suffering, and so am I. The only good part about it is seeing the truth come out, however it has to come out, because that will lead to reform. The Church in history has had many horrible problems and entertained many hearsays but in the end, every time, reform has come. But there is never a question of remaining Catholic. I will remain Catholic Church to the day I die, because this is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, and He promised He would be with it until the end of time (clearly He knew we would need that reassurance in times like these). And liars and traitors who have been entrusted to run it are not the Church: they are liars and traitors.

    There was another time in history that we had only ONE BISHOP to stand for truth in the world, while over 300 bishops at that time were standing by hearsay either through deliberateness or complacency. Only ONE stood up against the others, and yet, in the end, the truth prevailed. We have a lot of shameful Bishops and Cardinals at this time who stand for hearsay, not truth, as well as those who heretically live lives in opposition to the Church, whose teachings they have vowed to uphold. But we also have in our times - as we have had in all times - heroic bishops (although quite few). An example of heroes today are the "Four Dubia Brothers" who are now becoming legend, even though half of them died since their heroic action 3 years ago. But in spite of the odds against the heroic vs. the heretical and the dull, the truth WILL win out in the end, as it did for that one bishop of old, who alone stood up against hearsay to the entire college of Cardinals, of the whole world, at the Nicaean Council in 325A.d. And the truth he alone stood for did become an irreversible Dogma of the Church.

    And this one lone bishop is still loved and celebrated today by the whole world, Catholic or not. He is St. Nicholas.*

    ___________________

    *Brief true story on St. Nick: https://www.stnicholascenter.org/pag...oses-his-cool/
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Of course Francis has his issues ...his silence during the time of the abuses carried out by the junta in Argentina.
    He is presented as kindly, but has a temper and is seen as the dictator pope ... and learning of his coverup and victimization of victims in Argentina - its not a pretty thing. But he is the ONE that the cabal* wanted as pope, and somehow, they got what they wanted.

    [Subteigh, I have some thoughts on your hell comment, as I have been contemplating the topic some time, particularly because of previous sentiments you have expressed on it, so I will comment sometime - I am still tied up in many things right now.]

    ___
    * cabal - like those infamous German bishops, like the ones who we see here when Pope Benedict visited his home country of Germany after he became pope. Clearly he was not the candidate they wanted, as you can see by their shameful behavior in the one minute video below. (These cardinals surely must represent the wolves he referred to in the Inaugural Mass in 2005, when he said, “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.” )

    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


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    To be fair, every time we've found historical evidence of a State forming de novo, it's coincided with an organized religious institution. The State is probably a by-product of religious institutions and we abide by its constructs with the fervor of religious worship. It would only make sense that a state that failed to collect its own tithes from wealthy religious establishments would end up weak and unstable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    He is presented as kindly, but has a temper and is seen as the dictator pope ... and learning of his coverup and victimization of victims in Argentina - its not a pretty thing. But he is the ONE that the cabal* wanted as pope, and somehow, they got what they wanted.

    [Subteigh, I have some thoughts on your hell comment, as I have been contemplating the topic some time, particularly because of previous sentiments you have expressed on it, so I will comment sometime - I am still tied up in many things right now.]

    ___
    * cabal - like those infamous German bishops, like the ones who we see here when Pope Benedict visited his home country of Germany after he became pope. Clearly he was not the candidate they wanted, as you can see by their shameful behavior in the one minute video below. (These cardinals surely must represent the wolves he referred to in the Inaugural Mass in 2005, when he said, “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.” )

    I don't think I know of any popes I largely like.

    I'm surprised that Catholics would call a Pope a dictator Pope, as I had thought there was a general sentiment that bishops elected their Popes guided by the Holy Spirit etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I don't think I know of any popes I largely like.

    I'm surprised that Catholics would call a Pope a dictator Pope, as I had thought there was a general sentiment that bishops elected their Popes guided by the Holy Spirit etc.
    Or they were never guided by a holy spirit and just chose popes based on who would get them the most influence over the people. Maybe sometimes they needed a more passive pope who would bend to their will and other times a more dominating pope. Aren't most popes set up to be dictators anyway? Since that is kind of their job to tell people how to interpret god's word and to maintain hierarchy all the way down the pyramid until you get to the lower priests who deal with the congregations (who are at the very bottom)?

    I kind of like this new guy. Not sure why. I am not catholic but something about him is, ok.

    Maybe Catholics today are more savvy when it comes to politics, social issues and knowledge so instead of relying on holy men to interpret the word of god, or Jesus, they are just taking it upon themselves or letting secular groups (socionics) influence them more. When organized religions fall it will not be from the outside. It will come from those within the religion. They will no longer have blind faith and the people will turn on their leaders. What the result will look like, I don't know. Just some thoughts... We will probably be dead by then anyway.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I don't think I know of any popes I largely like.

    I'm surprised that Catholics would call a Pope a dictator Pope*, as I had thought there was a general sentiment that bishops elected their Popes guided by the Holy Spirit etc.
    Well as to the dictator, yes, he is described that way, and there is even a book of that title.

    [A reviewer of The Dictator Pope writes: "The most valuable service provided by the author of The Dictator Pope is the psychological portrait of Pope Francis: manipulative, hypersensitive, and often downright vindictive—certainly not the cheerful populist that his supporters make him out to be."]

    I have seen the vindictiveness and been shocked by it. Not something one would ever see in the previous two, who were more lambs. Also this pope has an amazing amount of sketchy buddies and advisors, and I haven't heard of any admirable ones yet (except the ones he mistreats). I also liked him at first, particularly because of his kindly ways and "humility". That was truly my impression, and I rejoiced in it. But now that the first impression is gone by and I have seen him and heard him in action, I would certainly not call him either. I liked the previous two popes, the only ones who have been popes since I have been Catholic, so the bad surprises of this pope have inspired me to learn about many of the previous popes. I learned that even the ones I like much more, because of all their good works, have issues [though they seem more like blind spots than what I judge to be character flaws in this one]. So, it's true, popes are not infallible persons, it's just that they can make infallible pronouncements. [But they don't do that often - and recent ones seem to avoid it. A pope is only infallible when speaking "ex cathedra", or, from the chair - and that last happened about 100 years ago).]

    I heard there were some impressive Pius', over the years. Here is a Pius Clock with the last 12 Pius' on it:


    [There is a Hollywood movie out with a Hollywood version of what a Pius XIII would be like and I listened to a review of it. (A mixed bag; it's not deeply insightful).]

    As to elected popes being guided by the Holy Spirit, they certainly are. But the problem is people can ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit. People can actually not hear God's will because of their own will or because they are living separated from God because of serious sin that lords over their life that they have not repented of. (Looks at the red-hats in that Benedict video I posted. Who do you think is lord over their life and will?).

    But in spite of our infallibility, whoever is elected pope is leading the church, however badly. Jesus speaks to him, and I guess he must listen, at least sometimes (But we know God does not override his or anyone's will). The Apostle the Iscariot was a chosen-twelve Apostle even though Jesus knew how bad his heart was. God works with cracked pots and somehow gets the job done. We have a long history of bad popes (and good, holy ones, and even Saint ones) so we've been through this before. I learned early on, before converting, the amazing truth that no bad pope has ever infallibly taught an untruth about faith and morals. One can read all about miraculous reigns of bad popes over the centuries and how they were prevented from an intention to infallibly teach falsehoods on faith and morals (which would thereby change the infallible teaching of the Church on faith and morals) because in every case, as they got closer to this manifesting their intention, they either converted, died, or had a change of heart just before doing so.

    That has driven home the reality that the infallible words of a pope has nothing to do with blabbing to newspapermen on jet planes. I expect this pope, being a regular person like the rest of us, will either get much worse, or he will convert (Because people don't just stay the same. They choose a path and go that way.). There is a lot of people praying for the latter, including me! Daily.

    Mystics have said of the Church today that it is "the time of the laity" and there is a lot of talk about what that might mean. I don't know, but I know I have learned a lot about faith and the teachings of the Church not from clergy but from lay people, so that I, like legions of other lay people, recognize misteachings from the highest places of the Church as soon as I hear them. [to be fair, many of these lay people refer he works of great Saints, bishops, and religious of the past and we learn from them]. We have many priests, bishops and cardinals today who pledged to teach the faith and don't, and haven't for decades. So now well-informed lay persons are teaching the lay persons, and informed communities are sprouting up everywhere. It is invigorating to meet more and more once-lost people, who now feel informed and guided. I meet them in parishes and gatherings everywhere, as well as online. Another thing the "time of the laity" might mean is that many lay persons are praying the Church into reform. I am trying, and I know so many who are trying even harder and more faithfully.

    My husband and I are really enjoying lately learning and getting real perspective on what is going on now through watching the Taylor Marshall and Tim Gordon videos. They add some humor as well as historical perspective on what is happening in the Church today. Humor helps a weighty subject. Like last night we watched one (on the topic of describing what is excommunication) where Tim Gordon was making a comparison of many the American Bishops, particularly Archbishop Dolan of NY, being just like Michael Scott of The Office. Yes, there is a real lack of manliness in the fatherhood of these bishops, and there is a real parallel to Michael Scott, in that same sort of self-conscious, self-important, weak, pathetic way.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Well as to the dictator, yes, he is described that way, and there is even a book of that title.

    [A reviewer of The Dictator Pope writes: "The most valuable service provided by the author of The Dictator Pope is the psychological portrait of Pope Francis: manipulative, hypersensitive, and often downright vindictive—certainly not the cheerful populist that his supporters make him out to be."]

    I have seen the vindictiveness and been shocked by it. Not something one would ever see in the previous two, who were more lambs. Also this pope has an amazing amount of sketchy buddies and advisors, and I haven't heard of any admirable ones yet (except the ones he mistreats). I also liked him at first, particularly because of his kindly ways and "humility". That was truly my impression, and I rejoiced in it. But now that the first impression is gone by and I have seen him and heard him in action, I would certainly not call him either. I liked the previous two popes, the only ones who have been popes since I have been Catholic, so the bad surprises of this pope have inspired me to learn about many of the previous popes. I learned that even the ones I like much more, because of all their good works, have issues [though they seem more like blind spots than what I judge to be character flaws in this one]. So, it's true, popes are not infallible persons, it's just that they can make infallible pronouncements. [But they don't do that often - and recent ones seem to avoid it. A pope is only infallible when speaking "ex cathedra", or, from the chair - and that last happened about 100 years ago).]

    I heard there were some impressive Pius', over the years. Here is a Pius Clock with the last 12 Pius' on it:


    [There is a Hollywood movie out with a Hollywood version of what a Pius XIII would be like and I listened to a review of it. (A mixed bag; it's not deeply insightful).]

    As to elected popes being guided by the Holy Spirit, they certainly are. But the problem is people can ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit. People can actually not hear God's will because of their own will or because they are living separated from God because of serious sin that lords over their life that they have not repented of. (Looks at the red-hats in that Benedict video I posted. Who do you think is lord over their life and will?).

    But in spite of our infallibility, whoever is elected pope is leading the church, however badly. Jesus speaks to him, and I guess he must listen, at least sometimes (But we know God does not override his or anyone's will). The Apostle the Iscariot was a chosen-twelve Apostle even though Jesus knew how bad his heart was. God works with cracked pots and somehow gets the job done. We have a long history of bad popes (and good, holy ones, and even Saint ones) so we've been through this before. I learned early on, before converting, the amazing truth that no bad pope has ever infallibly taught an untruth about faith and morals. One can read all about miraculous reigns of bad popes over the centuries and how they were prevented from an intention to infallibly teach falsehoods on faith and morals (which would thereby change the infallible teaching of the Church on faith and morals) because in every case, as they got closer to this manifesting their intention, they either converted, died, or had a change of heart just before doing so.

    That has driven home the reality that the infallible words of a pope has nothing to do with blabbing to newspapermen on jet planes. I expect this pope, being a regular person like the rest of us, will either get much worse, or he will convert (Because people don't just stay the same. They choose a path and go that way.). There is a lot of people praying for the latter, including me! Daily.

    Mystics have said of the Church today that it is "the time of the laity" and there is a lot of talk about what that might mean. I don't know, but I know I have learned a lot about faith and the teachings of the Church not from clergy but from lay people, so that I, like legions of other lay people, recognize misteachings from the highest places of the Church as soon as I hear them. [to be fair, many of these lay people refer he works of great Saints, bishops, and religious of the past and we learn from them]. We have many priests, bishops and cardinals today who pledged to teach the faith and don't, and haven't for decades. So now well-informed lay persons are teaching the lay persons, and informed communities are sprouting up everywhere. It is invigorating to meet more and more once-lost people, who now feel informed and guided. I meet them in parishes and gatherings everywhere, as well as online. Another thing the "time of the laity" might mean is that many lay persons are praying the Church into reform. I am trying, and I know so many who are trying even harder and more faithfully.

    My husband and I are really enjoying lately learning and getting real perspective on what is going on now through watching the Taylor Marshall and Tim Gordon videos. They add some humor as well as historical perspective on what is happening in the Church today. Humor helps a weighty subject. Like last night we watched one (on the topic of describing what is excommunication) where Tim Gordon was making a comparison of many the American Bishops, particularly Archbishop Dolan of NY, being just like Michael Scott of The Office. Yes, there is a real lack of manliness in the fatherhood of these bishops, and there is a real parallel to Michael Scott, in that same sort of self-conscious, self-important, weak, pathetic way.
    Papal infallibility is a meaningless concept. No one is infallible.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

    According to Christian doctrine, all Christians are saints - there is no other qualification.

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    coeruleum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    When organized religions fall it will not be from the outside. It will come from those within the religion. They will no longer have blind faith and the people will turn on their leaders. What the result will look like, I don't know. Just some thoughts... We will probably be dead by then anyway.
    I'm going to speak in favor of organized religions. I think it's good to have a community to belong to because otherwise you're just sitting in your room with Hindu Goddess Kali adult coloring books and chakra cleansing bottled tea shouting ungrammatical phrases in Sanskrit and that's no good. I don't like super hierarchical organized religions like the Roman Catholic Church though because those are just based on fear and people don't even know what they're supposed to believe, they just sit there waiting for people to tell them what to believe. I think there should be organized religions of freely-associating people without strict hierarchies. It's really a matter of maturity in my opinion.
    “Don't think money does everything or you are going to end up doing everything for money.” ― Voltaire

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Papal infallibility is a meaningless concept. No one is infallible.
    Right. No one is infallible. Yet a fallible pope can make an infallible proclamation. (Actually simple, uneducated and/or immature persons have been known to utter the most profound realities which arise from the heart that are absolutely eternally infallible: i.e., "God is love" and "Jesus is Lord".)

    It's not a meaningless concept; it's a real concept and a functioning reality of the Catholic Church for 2000+ years as far as statements of popes in strict and narrow situations ["ex cathedra", as mentioned above]. Because of this, popes have less power as time goes on, as no pope can undo or rewrite any infallible proclamation on faith and morals. However, as we can see lately a pope can say things, leaning on the respect he has as pope, which are hearsay and which contradict Church teaching. However the lay are getting educated and it's not just sliding by and easily accepted as if truth had changed. This pope speaks a lot, but avoids accountability. And also like popes of the past century he avoids making any infallible statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    According to Christian doctrine, all Christians are saints - there is no other qualification.
    You have half a truth here. That partial definition of saint has always been taught by the Catholic Church, but seeing it as the only definition of saint is strictly a recent Protestant invention, one that came about for the self-comfort a man suffering from one of the more common forms of OCD: scrupulosity. [Martin Luther].

    But Christians have believed in every century, since the first century (and the first martyr of the Church, St. Stephen) in also the other definition of Saint. So you reject the first 1500 years of Christianity, but I don't.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-14-2019 at 12:15 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    I'm going to speak in favor of organized religions. I think it's good to have a community to belong to because otherwise you're just sitting in your room with Hindu Goddess Kali adult coloring books and chakra cleansing bottled tea shouting ungrammatical phrases in Sanskrit and that's no good. I don't like super hierarchical organized religions like the Roman Catholic Church though because those are just based on fear and people don't even know what they're supposed to believe, they just sit there waiting for people to tell them what to believe. I think there should be organized religions of freely-associating people without strict hierarchies. It's really a matter of maturity in my opinion.
    That is interesting to see you have a good word for organized religion. It's more popular these days to criticize organized religion [as if disorganized religion were some sort of virtue], and to say, "I'm spiritual, not religious" - which seems to turn out to be about as deep as you so aptly describe it. It's also so American, in our independent pioneer tration, to be anti-establishment ["just me and my own god"].

    I used to think similar things as you do of the Catholic church, and avoided it, as anyway I loved my own faith practice. But at one point, unexpectedly, I was moved to examine the assumptions I had made, which unexpectedly became an extensive study, through which I found all of my assumptions were wrong. Also you have a lot of wrong assumptions here. Maybe someday you will examine them.

    May you keep on seeking truth, as you seem to have a heart for it.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Default Addendum to Aylen

    @Aylen, because you had asked why I was making a distinction about the false name of the abuse problem being pedophilia [link to the brief official definition is there], I thought I would tell you something I further I learned about the official definition. Pedophilia describes only pre-pubescent children, and the definition of pedophilia does not include any distinction between whether the abuse victims are male or female, or if perpetrated by male or female. Just any pedophilia is crime. However the distinction of male or female, heter- or homosexual is made for all post-pubescent victims. That is why it is clear that at least 80% of the victims are of a homosexual nature.

    This 80% figure does not factor in the also-widespread issue of sexual crimes against seminarians, who are all male, so that additional (and linked) problem is all homosexual. So even though the responsible bishops, cardinals and the current pope are refusing to speak of the homosexual nature of the problem, it is impossible to hide the obvious fact that the key to the problem lies there, so I don't know how long this charade can go on. One cannot avoid blaring key facts and expect to get to the bottom of the problem, which is what these crimes are crying out for.

    ____
    [I want to add that there is no impication that all homsexuals are pederasts. That would be unjust, just as it is unjust to imply that all priests have this proclivity].
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Eliza Thomason is in charge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    May you keep on seeking truth, as you seem to have a heart for it.
    I have enough to know that the Earth isn't flat.

    I guess I was being a little harsh on Catholicism though. I hear individual Catholics speak out against specific decisions of the Catholic Church all the time so I don't think of them as just a bunch of cowering sheeple. It still does seem a little fear-based to me though (which isn't any sort of direct truth evaluation on it.)
    “Don't think money does everything or you are going to end up doing everything for money.” ― Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @Aylen, because you had asked why I was making a distinction about the false name of the abuse problem being pedophilia [link to the brief official definition is there], I thought I would tell you something I further I learned about the official definition. Pedophilia describes only pre-pubescent children, and the definition of pedophilia does not include any distinction between whether the abuse victims are male or female, or if perpetrated by male or female. Just any pedophilia is crime. However the distinction of male or female, heter- or homosexual is made for all post-pubescent victims. That is why it is clear that at least 80% of the victims are of a homosexual nature.

    This 80% figure does not factor in the also-widespread issue of sexual crimes against seminarians, who are all male, so that additional (and linked) problem is all homosexual. So even though the responsible bishops, cardinals and the current pope are refusing to speak of the homosexual nature of the problem, it is impossible to hide the obvious fact that the key to the problem lies there, so I don't know how long this charade can go on. One cannot avoid blaring key facts and expect to get to the bottom of the problem, which is what these crimes are crying out for.

    ____
    [I want to add that there is no impication that all homsexuals are pederasts. That would be unjust, just as it is unjust to imply that all priests have this proclivity].
    I don't know if you have read it but @BandD seems to be more aware of what's up with all this. Including the age range of the priests involve. This has been an issue as long as there has been a Catholic church so no one can pretend it is new. If anything it is decreasing due to things once kept secret now being exposed in institutions, religious or otherwise. I thought you wanted a gay man's perspective but you didn't acknowledge his post.

    Here is the report in full. 291 pages.

    http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-acti...-1950-2002.pdf

    Until more recent times males were less likely to report childhood sexual abuse. Actually children in general were less likely due to feeling shame over it. The number are unknown but you can guess at it if you read the article and fill in the blanks. The statistics include men who didn't report it for over 30 years. Just because you call it pederasty and some reports refer to it as pederasty doesn't mean a lot of prepubescent boys were not abused. The younger the child is the less likely they will recall it in detail since a young child's psyche is more resilient. The older the child the more likely they will understand what is happening and have more mixed feelings of right and wrong.

    The word pedophile might not be technically correct but if you read the full John Jay report you will see the issues are far more complex than pederasty. Call it whatever you wish. Just pay your taxes. I will too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    Eliza Thomason is in charge.
    u mirin her ?

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    I'm going to speak in favor of organized religions. I think it's good to have a community to belong to because otherwise you're just sitting in your room with Hindu Goddess Kali adult coloring books and chakra cleansing bottled tea shouting ungrammatical phrases in Sanskrit and that's no good. I don't like super hierarchical organized religions like the Roman Catholic Church though because those are just based on fear and people don't even know what they're supposed to believe, they just sit there waiting for people to tell them what to believe. I think there should be organized religions of freely-associating people without strict hierarchies. It's really a matter of maturity in my opinion.
    That imagery.

    Here is the Christian version of the scene you have painted. "The introverted Christian's Worship Kit" now available for the low price of $888. It includes "Jesus Loves Me" and "The Glory of Color" adult coloring books, holy spirit wine and a copy of the Lord's Prayer in Latin.

    *candles, incense, prayer beads. prie-dieu or tongue depressors (for those times when speaking in tongues goes too far) sold separately.














    As I have said before. I am all for organized religion, and laws, since I think they keep the average person's conscience in check by guilt or fear of punishment. Laws + religious guilt + fear of hell is the ultimate binding spell. I don't want to have to think about my neighbors going around eye for eyeing me or others.

    You don't need an organized religion to belong to a community. You don't need organized religion to believe in god, by whatever name you call it ("Kali" so what?). If there is a creative force outside of physicality it has no name. We can call it Bob if the intention to connect to something you perceive to be greater or beyond you is there. I am not even sure if we are disagreeing on much here. Other than I don't care how someone chooses to worship their gods. I don't believe one way is legit and all the others are not. If anything I believe in a force. It has no name.

    Hey Bob, I hope you are not offended. If you are send me a sign and I will post my retraction. <3

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    The Only EII In This Part Of The Internet Subteigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Right. No one is infallible. Yet a fallible pope can make an infallible proclamation. (Actually simple, uneducated and/or immature persons have been known to utter the most profound realities which arise from the heart that are absolutely eternally infallible: i.e., "God is love" and "Jesus is Lord".)

    It's not a meaningless concept; it's a real concept and a functioning reality of the Catholic Church for 2000+ years as far as statements of popes in strict and narrow situations ["ex cathedra", as mentioned above]. Because of this, popes have less power as time goes on, as no pope can undo or rewrite any infallible proclamation on faith and morals. However, as we can see lately a pope can say things, leaning on the respect he has as pope, which are hearsay and which contradict Church teaching. However the lay are getting educated and it's not just sliding by and easily accepted as if truth had changed. This pope speaks a lot, but avoids accountability. And also like popes of the past century he avoids making any infallible statements.
    I thought the point of "papal infallibility" was that it had to be verified by scripture. Otherwise, no one could say whether the pope was making an "infallible" statement about Christian dogma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You have half a truth here. That partial definition of saint has always been taught by the Catholic Church, but seeing it as the only definition of saint is strictly a recent Protestant invention, one that came about for the self-comfort a man suffering from one of the more common forms of OCD: scrupulosity. [Martin Luther].

    But Christians have believed in every century, since the first century (and the first martyr of the Church, St. Stephen) in also the other definition of Saint. So you reject the first 1500 years of Christianity, but I don't.
    The bible on numerous occasions says that all those in the church of Christ are saints:
    https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow...a-bible-study/

    http://justforcatholics.org/a50.htm

    https://www.gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html

    https://www.compellingtruth.org/Christian-saints.html

    Similarly, all Christians are priests.

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    coeruleum's Avatar
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    @Aylen I saw a bunch of Goddess Coloring Books at a New Age store once so I was just imagining a bunch of "spiritual, not religious" people coloring them alone at home and whining about "organized religion." The real issue though is no one should be coloring religious-themed adult coloring books, not for Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, American Indian religions, Wicca, Neopaganism, or anything else, in private or at a public meeting.

    I don't think all of organized religion is about fear and keeping the masses in check though. I think a lot of it is less cynical than that and actually about community, celebrating holidays, having organized doctrines, etc. I mean everyone goes to church for Christmas and Easter, right? Without organized religion there'd be no Christmas presents and Easter eggs as far as I know.
    “Don't think money does everything or you are going to end up doing everything for money.” ― Voltaire

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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    @Aylen I saw a bunch of Goddess Coloring Books at a New Age store once so I was just imagining a bunch of "spiritual, not religious" people coloring them alone at home and whining about "organized religion." The real issue though is no one should be coloring religious-themed adult coloring books, not for Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, American Indian religions, Wicca, Neopaganism, or anything else, in private or at a public meeting.

    I don't think all of organized religion is about fear and keeping the masses in check though. I think a lot of it is less cynical than that and actually about community, celebrating holidays, having organized doctrines, etc. I mean everyone goes to church for Christmas and Easter, right? Without organized religion there'd be no Christmas presents and Easter eggs as far as I know.
    It does seem irreverent to be coloring the gods with crayons as an adult but some churches even sell them to make money. lol If you are an artist just paint or draw them. I had religious coloring books as a child. I think it was Noah's Ark theme.

    Other than my mom the rest of my immediate family has not attended Christmas or Easter services since we were allowed to choose. I think there might have been a couple exceptions where we went with her. We still do the tree and Easter eggs though. It just isn't the same magic as it was when I was a child.

    I loved our small Orthodox church, as a child, for the chanting, beautiful art (icons), incense and overall mystical vibe. There was also lot of gold and red color in the church we attended. I thought it looked so cool. It would be gaudy for home decor but it in a church it was pretty awesome. Not gaudy at all. Wish I had pics.

    I agree, not all are about fear. I am not that cynical about it at all. I was being a bit irreverent. The idea of the "The Purge" movies and series came to mind. If I were given a free day to hurt or kill someone I would not take advantage of it. I think any time people get together to uplift each other in whatever ways they find uplifting it can only be good for their spiritual, emotional, psychological and physical health.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Now I'm just imagining certain people making religious coloring books to try to be irreverent... "Hello New Atheists! Would you like to draw a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed to piss off those horrible Mohammedans, but you feel that your drawing skills are not up to par? Now, you can buy our Color Mohammed! Adult Coloring Books for as low as £19.99! All the winners from the Draw Mohammed! cartoon contest, with 5 bonus pages from everyone's favorite free speech organization Charlie Hebdo, as endorsed by CNN!"

    I googled to see if something like that's actually been made and people have tried but it hasn't. I think that's a good cause to be less cynical about people in general (not that that'll stop Charlie Hebdo from being less cynical about people in general.)
    “Don't think money does everything or you are going to end up doing everything for money.” ― Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I don't know if you have read it but @BandD seems to be more aware of what's up with all this. Including the age range of the priests involve. This has been an issue as long as there has been a Catholic church so no one can pretend it is new. If anything it is decreasing due to things once kept secret now being exposed in institutions, religious or otherwise. I thought you wanted a gay man's perspective but you didn't acknowledge his post.
    I saw it. I began to read it. I wanted to know what he thought, and then it got inappropriate. I first got stuck thinking about his notion that children are "smelly" and trying to figure out what he was trying to communicate about that, since I work with children everyday and this is not something I have ever observed, but thinking about what he was probably trying to communicate was not edifying. Then his text just deteriorated from there. I think he has things to say, but this is not the first time I have been interested in what he had to say but was put off by his graphic off-color details, and these are things I just don't want to think on. So although I would be interested in his opinion on some things, and I appreciate that he is candid, he doesn't seem accustomed to keeping his conversation clean, which is how I would prefer to think, except when it's absolutely necessary. This was unnecessary.

    Yes, I would appreciate a gay man's perspective, but I know a few, at least a couple of them well, in real life, and although I have not been on this topic with any of them, I suppose I could broach it since I know them and they know me and I can trust that the conversation won't get unnecessarily crude. This perspective is just one of the many things I would like to learn in order to further my understanding of this issue -- there is a lot more to learn and I cannot be at it full time.

    I want to say that I avoid crudeness and vulgarity not only in conversation but in entertainment, too. So that puts a serious restriction on my entertainment. But that's okay by me. My rule of thumb for what I am going to think about comes from scripture,

    "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." -Philippians 4:8 (KJV)*


    Of course there is much unedifying in the abuse problem in the Church right now, and it's quite ugly having to witness the shallowness and the lack of faith and virtue in those in the highest positions of the Church, such as is witnessed in the USCCB with their slick and worldly ways of trying to hide and divert the truth. However, getting at the truth - that is a virtue, and that is worthwhile, even though one has to wade through a lot of muck. But I don't need to add unrelated muck to what I already have to think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Here is the report in full. 291 pages.
    LOL, Aylen. 291 pages! Any optional links I put in my replies here were one paragraph, or a brief one-page of summary of a complex topic. Nothing near 291 pages of "full" texts! ...So, I don't think this is going to make it to my "Read Next" list!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Until more recent times males were less likely to report childhood sexual abuse. Actually children in general were less likely due to feeling shame over it. The number are unknown but you can guess at it if you read the article and fill in the blanks. The statistics include men who didn't report it for over 30 years. Just because you call it pederasty and some reports refer to it as pederasty doesn't mean a lot of prepubescent boys were not abused. The younger the child is the less likely they will recall it in detail since a young child's psyche is more resilient. The older the child the more likely they will understand what is happening and have more mixed feelings of right and wrong.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    The word pedophile might not be technically correct but if you read the full John Jay report you will see the issues are far more complex than pederasty. Call it whatever you wish.
    I'll just call it what it is. At least 80% Pederasty.


    __________________________________________________ _______________
    *Also I like this favorite verse of mine in the Douay-Rheims Bible translation:
    "For the rest, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever modest, whatsoever just, whatsoever holy, whatsoever lovely, whatsoever of good fame, if there be any virtue, if any praise of discipline, think on these things."
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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