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Thread: Tax the Catholic Church

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    Default Tax the Catholic Church

    And use the tax revenue to investigate, arrest, and jail all child abusers within its walls.
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    https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2018/...ch/2237821002/

    New list of abusive Jesuit priests raises question: How many more are out there?


    Until Friday morning, Terry McKiernan had 178 Jesuit priests on a list of abusive clergy members in the U.S. His list grew after Catholic Jesuit provinces released the names of 153 priests and brothers credibly accused of sexually abusing children.
    The Jesuits' U.S. Central and Southern, and West provinces posted the names on their websites Friday, and the Chicago-based Midwest province plans to post its names Dec. 17.
    More: Jesuit priest abuse: 42 members of southern and central province named
    More: Jesuits name 153 sexually abusive priests and brothers; more names expected to be released
    The wholesale release of names of abusive priests has been trending among dioceses around the world since August, when a grand jury report identified 301 predator priests in Pennsylvania. Friday marked the first time a Jesuit order named their abusers in a long list.
    While the Catholic priest abuse scandal might seem more transparent than ever, McKiernan said we know fewer than half of all abusive priests by name.
    And McKiernan should know. As president and founder of Bishop Accountability, he has been tracking abusive clergy since a 2002 report revealed U.S. bishops hid predators and transferred them to parishes where they abused again.
    The York Daily Record has determined that there are thousands of abusive priests who have not yet been identified, based on an analysis of data from Bishop Accountability.org, the U.S. Catholic Conference, Vatican statistics, Jesuit statistics and interviews.
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    I don't think the Church has much cash flow. It's more building assets that they own that are valuable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    I don't think the Church has much cash flow. It's more building assets that they own that are valuable.
    The church acquires many assets as gifts. The fact that church property and other assets aren't taxed and have grown over the years to an estimated value of $30 billion is not lost on Republicans, who are doing everything in their power to reduce their own taxes.

    But cash flow is not the only measure of wealth or financial health.

    By serving as a dormitory for single women (nuns), the church derived a huge amount of free, untaxed labor from these women in exchange for room and board. More recently, as the state has increasingly decided to support poor people, this source of income has declined for the church.

    Republicans are also working hard to reduce the wages of their own workers.

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    Drone strike the federal reserve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.

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    The Catholic church is ‘shocked’ at the hundreds of children buried at Tuam. Really?


    It has been confirmed that significant numbers of children’s remains lie in a mass grave adjacent to a former home for unmarried mothers run by the Bon Secours Sisters in Tuam, County Galway. This is exactly where local historian Catherine Corless, who was instrumental in bringing the mass grave to light, said they would be. A state-established commission of inquiry into mother and baby homes recently located the site in a structure that “appears to be related to the treatment/containment of sewage and/or waste water”, but which we are not supposed to call a septic tank.





    The archbishop of Tuam, Michael Neary, says he is “deeply shocked and horrified”. Deeply. Because what could the church have known about the abuse of children in its instutions? When Irish taoiseach Enda Kenny was asked if he was similarly shocked, he answered: “Absolutely. To think you pass by the location on so many occasions over the years.” To think. Because what would Kenny, in Irish politics since the 70s, know about state-funded, church-perpetrated abuse of women and children? Even the commission of inquiry – already under critique by the UN – said in its official statement that it was “shocked by this discovery”.
    If I am shocked, it is by the pretence of so much shock. When Corless discovered death certificates for 796 children at the home between 1925 and 1961 but burial records for only two, it was clear that hundreds of bodies existed somewhere. They did not, after all, ascend into heaven like the virgin mother. Corless then uncovered oral histories from reliable local witnesses, offering evidence of where those children’s remains could be found. So what did the church and state think had happened? That the nuns had buried the babies in a lovely wee graveyard somewhere, but just couldn’t remember where?

    Or maybe the church and state are expressing shock that nuns in mid-20th century Ireland could have so little regard for the lives and deaths of children in their care. The Ryan report in 2009 documented the systematic sexual, physical and emotional abuse of children in church-run, state-funded institutions. It revealed that when confronted with evidence of child abuse, the church would transfer abusers to other institutions, where they could abuse other children. The Christian Brothers legally blocked the report from naming and shaming its members. Meanwhile, Cardinal Seán Brady – now known to have participated in the cover-up of abuse by paedophile priest Brendan Smyth – muttered about how ashamed he was.

    It may be time to stop acting as though the moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy of the Catholic church are news to us
    The same year, the Murphy report on the sexual abuse of children in the archdiocese of Dublin revealed that the Catholic church’s priorities in dealing with paedophilia were not child welfare, but rather secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of its reputation and the preservation of church assets. In 2013, the McAleese report documented the imprisonment of more than 10,000 women in church-run, state-funded laundries, where they worked in punitive industrial conditions without pay for the crime of being unmarried mothers.
    So you will forgive me if I am sceptical of the professed shock of Ireland’s clergy, politicians and official inquiring bodies. We know too much about the Catholic church’s abuse of women and children to be shocked by Tuam. A mass grave full of the children of unmarried mothers is an embarrassing landmark when the state is still paying the church to run its schools and hospitals. Hundreds of dead babies are not an asset to those invested in the myth of an abortion-free Ireland; they inconveniently suggest that Catholic Ireland always had abortions, just very late-term ones, administered slowly by nuns after the children were already born.

    As Ireland gears up for a probable referendum on abortion rights as well as a strategically planned visit from the pope, it may be time to stop acting as though the moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy of the Catholic church are news to us. You can say you don’t care, but – after the Ryan report, the Murphy report, the McAleese report, the Cloyne report, the Ferns report, the Raphoe report and now Tuam – you don’t get to pretend that you don’t know.

    Two members of my family were born in the Tuam home, lived short lives there, and are likely lying in that septic tank – sorry, in that structure that “appears to be related to the treatment/containment of sewage and/or waste water”. Their mother died young, weakened from her time in the custody of the church. Because of this I understand that otherwise good, kind people in Ireland handed power over women and children’s lives to an institution they knew was abusive. And I wrestle with the reality that – in our schools and hospitals – we’re still handing power over women and children’s lives to the Catholic church. Perhaps, after Tuam, after everything, that’s what’s really shocking.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...t-tuam-ireland
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    The Catholic church is ‘shocked’ at the hundreds of children buried at Tuam. Really?




    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...t-tuam-ireland
    The practice of the Catholic Church to overlook abusive priests and nuns and to simply transfer them somewhere else is the natural, self-preserving response of an unchecked institution to the problem of having a very hard time of recruiting new workers. Not many people want to be priests or nuns anymore, so they do everything they can to keep the ones they have.

    This natural impulse to hide the bad that one does is the reason the US has three branches of government which police each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The practice of the Catholic Church to overlook abusive priests and nuns and to simply transfer them somewhere else is the natural, self-preserving response of an unchecked institution to the problem of having a very hard time of recruiting new workers. Not many people want to be priests or nuns anymore, so they do everything they can to keep the ones they have.

    This natural impulse to hide the bad that one does is the reason the US has three branches of government which police each other.
    Fun fact that it's Traditionalist dissenters that are both the most adamant about laicizing abusive priests, unleashing secular authorities on them, and cite the Council of Trent to support it. This is a problem that spiked alongside Modernism (and homosexuality) among the religious.

    Simultaneously it's the Traditionalist orders seeing yearly accelerations in vocations (eg. at current rates the Jesuits will have fewer members than the SSPX in 20 years).

    I'd also be remiss to not point out that proportionally the clergy doesn't abuse at a higher rate than secular authorities (eg. the public school system). It only gets extra spotlight for the same reason for the saying that the roads in Hell are paved with the skulls of Bishops.

    P.S. Fuck the Jesuits. Bring back Dominus ac Redemptor Noster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The practice of the Catholic Church to overlook abusive priests and nuns and to simply transfer them somewhere else is the natural, self-preserving response of an unchecked institution to the problem of having a very hard time of recruiting new workers. Not many people want to be priests or nuns anymore, so they do everything they can to keep the ones they have.

    This natural impulse to hide the bad that one does is the reason the US has three branches of government which police each other.
    "Natural impulse", you say? The irony is not lost to me.
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    Catholic League president defends pedophile priests: It’s not rape if there was ‘no penetration’


    In the wake of a horrific grand jury report detailing the rape and sexual abuse of over 1,000 Pennsylvania children at the hands of hundreds of Pennsylvania Catholic priests, Catholic League President Bill Donohue wrote an op-ed for the website CNS News (an affiliate of the right-wing Media Research Center), where he claimed to ‘debunk’ the report released by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court as an “obscene lie.”
    According to Donohue, the accounts detailed in the grand jury report are “all accusations, most of which were never verified by either the grand jury or the dioceses.” He then says that a CBS News report on the story was wrong to suggest “that all of the accused are priests.”
    “In fact, some were brothers, some were deacons, and some were seminarians,” Donohue writes. It’s a bizarre non-defense, considering that brothers, deacons, and seminarians are all part of the Catholic Church.
    “How many of the 300 were probably guilty? Maybe half. My reasoning? The 2004 report by the John Jay College for Criminal Justice found that 4 percent of priests nationwide had a credible accusation made against them between 1950-2002,” he continued. “That is the figure everyone quotes. But the report also notes that roughly half that number were substantiated. If that is a reliable measure, the 300 figure drops to around 150.”
    This is Donohue’s “debunking” of the story. It gets worse.
    At one point in the rambling piece, Donohue declared that rape accusations against the priests are a “myth.”
    “This is an obscene lie,” Donohue declared. “Most of the alleged victims were not raped: they were groped or otherwise abused, but not penetrated, which is what the word ‘rape’ means.”
    Donohue goes on to say that his assertions are not meant to be a “defense,” but an attempt to “set the record straight and debunk the worst case scenarios attributed to the offenders.”
    In other words, it’s a defense.
    https://twitter.com/ArtimusFoul/status/1030487356325945344
    At another point in the piece, Donohue says that the “on-going crisis” in the Catholic Church related to child sexual abuse is also a “myth.”
    “There is no on-going crisis—it’s a total myth,” he writes. “In fact, there is no institution, private or public, that has less of a problem with the sexual abuse of minors today than the Catholic Church.”
    This pathetic lie almost isn’t worth refuting. All one has to do look up the astronomical figure the Church has doled out in relation to its sex abuse scandals. As of 2015, the U.S. Catholic Church racked up nearly $4 billion in costs related to the priest sex abuse phenomenon in the previous 65 years, according to an extensive investigation of media reports, databases and church documents by the National Catholic Reporter.
    Donohue had another clarification to make: This is not a pedophile problem; it’s a gay problem.
    “Let me repeat what I have often said. Most gay priests are not molesters, but most of the molesters have been gay. Not to admit this—and this includes many bishops who are still living in a state of denial about it—means the problem will continue. Indeed, there are reports today about seminaries in Boston and Honduras that are disturbing.”
    In sum, the Media Research Center allowed a pedophile apologist to publish an op-ed on its platform. It’s another sign that accountability for the largest religious institution in the world being a pedophile ring continues to be elusive.


    Bill Donohue's portrait:

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    ^ Oh, he looks totally trustworthy.

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    Yeah, it's not much of a secret at this point with the catholic church sexually abusing young boys:



    Let's not forget the sexual abuse going on with wealthy billionaires and powerful politicians too among underage girls even though the sexual abuse going on with those of religious power is more obvious:



    Finally, sex trafficking is a very serious thing happening to millions of innocent women of all ages all around the world:

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    Kick out the Catholic church and replace it with Shintoism.

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    As a side note, there was a general Christian church building I knew of, stained glass and traditional in style, that closed and was turned into a dance club for many years. It was a cool place. They had many rooms for different styles of music. I saw Neil Finn also perform in that building. It was a great show. Since those days, the venue closed down. They actually turned it back into a church again. It is located in one of the more impoverished cities in the metro area here.

    Another church - traditional with stained glass - was turned into an artsy high end antique gallery shop. This is in a more country remote area outside of the Metropolitan scene.

    It has been interesting to see how churches have been repurposed.

    For many years I used to go to a small church whose sanctuary was so crowded, it held main services in its adjacent school building gym. Man I gave them a lot of money in hopes of a new building. Our beloved Pastor died before the dream was realized.

    Anyway, this is going to sound controversial but Catholic churches are extremely beautiful inside. It is a shame that some of deviant minds in the clergy might find it too sensual.

    To think objectively about it, and though trying not to offend, it would make sense it seems for true worshippers to consider more simpler, puritan style buildings than the sensory indulgences of Catholic interiors. If one can get past the offensive stumbling block crucifixes, the interiors can inadvertently be somewhat seductive to human nature. I am thinking now of popular alternative songs that sing about hot sex in the forbidden church zone. Some taboos are turn ons for some people. Not for me when it comes to taboos... But one must admit it is highly probable for some cognitive dissonance. Perhaps this is justified by the theologians as "feeding the mysteries of faith." Hmmm.

    Anyway, I wonder if the Catholic church would consider a reformation of interiors in a somewhat puritan spirit of simplicity. But alas, the grandeur probably speaks of power and also maybe the beauty is intended to inspire sublime mystical thoughts not carnal. Oh what to do, what to do.

    I haven't ever met anyone of my generation who decided to become a priest. It is such a rare vocation now. Perhaps the church will divert its attention from homosexual questions and consider letting the clergy marry. No doubt there wouldn't be so many scandals of abuses from displaced urges.
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    As NT type I'd postulate: Replace all existing religions with something more reasonable.

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    I would start by chopping of the penises from those knowing and those offending. What a disgusting institution.

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    Another side topic: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...BOB1TZ?ocid=sf

    Police officers in the US were charged with more than 400 rapes over a 9 year period. This is staggering seeing as how most rapes go unreported because they emotionally put victims through painful legal ordeals only to claim there is not enough evidence to convict the majority of the time anyway.

    Serious values problems.
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    Yeah, I mean, the more research you do, the more abuse in the Catholic Church evidently has monumental gravity that predates the 60's (ie. before the sexual revolution). Aggregated anecdotes amount to statistics, and broader statistics reflect poorly on entire populations. Were I to do a massive data dump on it all as it happens in real time, then the data dump would begin to look almost like a gish gallop in that the mind would fail to give proper weight to such a high level abstraction, mitigating the perceptible validity of all information posted.

    So I'll just post a few more links for any interested parties:

    http://www.bishop-accountability.org...ed_bishops.htm

    https://www.nytimes.com/topic/organi...ex-abuse-cases

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...219-story.html

    Crazy shit.
    Last edited by Karatos; 01-18-2019 at 12:07 PM.
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    I know someone who was a victim long ago. That's how common it has been. It makes me feel sorry for those clergymen who are innocent and walking the narrow path of sensual restriction.

    I wonder if the church believes that allowing marriage would not change things.

    I saw an alarming glimpse of a documentary on pedophilia which indicated that presently this affects millions of children* in crimes now in all walks of life. So I don't think it is fair that only offending priests are singled out.

    *alleged

    I also firmly believe that a 12 year old is not a child but a young adult. The way Americans try to socially and culturally - mainly economically - prolong childhood now until approximately age 30 is way out of whack with the reality of human nature. I do believe people should be able to marry as young as age 16 at least, without parental consent. In retrospect, I wish when I look back on my life that I could have married at 14 and this be acceptable in my society. But it is not. So I bring this up because what is called a minor is an exaggerated label. Hormones rage from age 12 on. Many people just don't like the idea of adults getting sex from teenagers so they criminalize it. Let me state that I still put the law before my personal beliefs because it is only prudent to do so. My fiance is younger than me, we are very much in love, but he is of age ... Legally an adult.

    How crimes are defined and why, as well as laws, is something I find philosophically incoherent in the present USA. They claim homosexuality is natural and decriminalize it ... Ok ... In old obscure lawbooks from long ago ... Yet our bodies are ready for sex at a young age and people are treated as if they are minors aka children until 18 due to economic dependencies and longer educational norms. I think too much gets repeated in lower grades - the curriculums are too easy - and could easily be sped up so that high school could be finished by 12, college by 16 as well as job trade apprenticeships so that young people could marry young, have families and careers and support themselves again. We need to get back to some old ways.
    Last edited by vesstheastralsilky; 01-18-2019 at 02:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    I wonder if the church believes that allowing marriage would not change things.
    We know it won't. Sex abuse broadly, and child abuse particularly still happen frequently by protestant and orthodox clergy that are allowed to marry and even divorce, and at higher rates by public school workers that take no vows of celibacy. This is a problem of Modernist sexual laxity entering the church, and since the Pennsylvania report showed 80%+ of instances were males targeting males, and almost all were targeting post-pubescent males in the seminary--not children--this is a homosexual problem. The perpetrators and the clerics that cover it up, are virtually always Vatican 2's most ardent advocates, and frequently the types that want to abolish the 6th Commandment like the (thankfully) late Cardinal Martini.
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    The Church does have money, but they'll be mad that we're taking church donations and using them to conduct wars and such, for example. That's even if we're not. Still, I'm curious to compare the number of total priests to convicted offenders.
    Figured it out. LIE. I'm extraverted, which is incredibly counter intuitive for a person who doesn't tend to go out much. Don't know how often I'll be on, but don't expect me to respond often. Only option I'm willing to debate is Si vs Ni right now. Mission accomplished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    And use the tax revenue to investigate, arrest, and jail all child abusers within its walls.
    Maybe a temporary tax (not an endless one because one can always find reason to keep taxing and they never are in line with the original reason), until the bulk of the investigation and prosecution sure complete, for this purpose, seems appropriate. Maybe more appropriate is a tax on the salaries of the bishops and cardinals, who were in a position to report this stuff and did not? It's hardly fair to tax the average Sunday offering-giving family when they had absolutely no power over the situation..

    I am glad the government is stepping into clean out corruption when church authorities did not. It is good for the festering wounds to be exposed so they can be cleaned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evolution View Post
    I would start by chopping of the penises from those knowing and those offending. What a disgusting institution.
    Evolution, if you do not want to know the truth, and if you prefer to hate the church and not know what is true about it, and that is where your comment comes from, then that is your prerogative. If so, then the following words are not for you, but for others, who do not hate, and who do love truth.

    The fact is, the Catholic Church is still what we say every Sunday in the Nicene Creed, and She will be until the end of time. The Holy Spirit is with her and always will be. She is the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." She is still the Body of Christ, and His Body is not sinful or corrupt. She is the Bride of Christ, and He has not failed her. We have failed her. The Church has been victimized by those with the most responsibility for her care, at every level of the hierarchy. The Church does not belong to any bishop or the pope. It is Jesus' Church.

    A friend of mine said this recently, and it's a wonderful analogy:

    "The Church is like the victim beside the road from Jerusalem to Jericho, who fell into the company of robbers. She has been stripped and beaten, and left to die; ignored in her strife by the clerics invited to the Summit who passed by on the other side. We, the Laity, may be like the Samaritan, without adequate standing to take action, but we may be all that is left."
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Evolution, if you do not want to know the truth, and if you prefer to hate the church and not know what is true about it, and that is where your comment comes from, then that is your prerogative. If so, then the following words are not for you, but for others, who do not hate, and who do love truth.

    The fact is, the Catholic Church is still what we say every Sunday in the Nicene Creed, and She will be until the end of time. The Holy Spirit is with her and always will be. She is the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." She is still the Body of Christ, and His Body is not sinful or corrupt. She is the Bride of Christ, and He has not failed her. We have failed her. The Church has been victimized by those with the most responsibility for her care, at every level of the hierarchy. The Church does not belong to any bishop or the pope. It is Jesus' Church.

    A friend of mine said this recently, and it's a wonderful analogy:

    "The Church is like the victim beside the road from Jerusalem to Jericho, who fell into the company of robbers. She has been stripped and beaten, and left to die; ignored in her strife by the clerics invited to the Summit who passed by on the other side. We, the Laity, may be like the Samaritan, without adequate standing to take action, but we may be all that is left."
    Yes, I hate child molesters and the people(The Catholic Church) who protect them. It's disgusting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evolution View Post
    Yes, I hate child molesters and the people(The Catholic Church) who protect them. It's disgusting.
    Yes, it's true that men who were raised to honored positions to represent the Catholic Church, who are entrusted to lead it, have perpetrated molestation and protected pederasts/pedophiles* and that is truly disgusting. I am thankful to our Merciful Lord that their crimes are now being exposed.

    However, these criminals are not the Church, as you accuse. It is rash and foolish to look at those who are liars and traitors to the teaching of the Church, those who do OPPOSITE of what She teaches and say these are the Church. Look to those who live the teachings of the church. We have thousands of Saints whose entire lives are recorded and investigated to an exaggerated extent, who have been found to be holy, having lived the teachings of the church, from every century, and from every walk of life, since year one, who show us what it means to live the Catholic life.

    Jesus promised there would be false prophets, and that there would be '"tares among the wheat" in His Church. Even one of his own twelve Apostles was a truly disgusting. People haven't changed and we haven't done better. Our Church is infiltrated by those trying to ruin it, and it's a very organized and systematic infiltration. For that, investigate the St. Gallen mafia because it's plan is behind this crime.

    Surely what we see happening today is the reason for the last part of this statement of Jesus: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Today we are surely watching hell beat against the church, yet we have been promised that hell will not prevail.
    ________________

    *The truth is that the name of the crime is pederasty - sex between a grown man and a boy. Just as horrible as child molestaion, but these perpetrators and protectors of perpetrators refuse to call it what they know it is. 80-84% of the victims are post pubescent boys over the age of 14, preyed upon by homosexual priests. For some suspicious reason, they are united (with the support of the media) in their endeavor to hide the true nature of the crime. And truly, it is organized crime.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-05-2019 at 01:32 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes, it's true that men who were raised to honored positions to represent the Catholic Church, who are entrusted to lead it, have perpetrated molestation and protected pederasts/pedophiles* and that is truly disgusting. I am thankful to our Merciful Lord that their crimes are now being exposed.

    However, these criminals are not the Church, as you accuse. It is rash and foolish to look at those who are liars and traitors to the teaching of the Church, those who do OPPOSITE of what She teaches and say these are the Church. Look to those who live the teachings of the church. We have thousands of Saints whose entire lives are recorded and investigated to an exaggerated extent, who have been found to be holy, having lived the teachings of the church, from every century, and from every walk of life, since year one, who show us what it means to live the Catholic life.

    Jesus promised there would be false prophets, and that there would be '"tares among the wheat" in His Church. Even one of his own twelve Apostles was a truly disgusting. People haven't changed and we haven't done better. Our Church is infiltrated by those trying to ruin it, and it's a very organized and systematic infiltration. For that, investigate the St. Gallen mafia because it's plan is behind this crime.

    Surely what we see happening today is the reason for the last part of this statement of Jesus: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Today we are surely watching hell beat against the church, yet we have been promised that hell will not prevail.
    ________________

    *The truth is that the name of the crime is pederasty - sex between a grown man and a boy. Just as horrible as child molestaion, but these perpetrators and protectors of perpetrators refuse to call it what they know it is. 80-84% of the victims are post pubescent boys over the age of 14, preyed upon by homosexual priests. For some suspicious reason, they are united (with the support of the media) in their endeavor to hide the true nature of the crime. And truly, it is organized crime.
    I believe that is the Church though and it is a corrupt institution. It is an institution comprised of humans, like an other institution. As such, they have built a wall around its priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes, protecting its secrets, which have nothing to do with the teachings of Christ. It has evolved over two thousand years, but for over a millennia, they have persecuted people who do not believe as they do, treating homosexuals like they are evil, stifling freethought, causing wars, hording wealth, etc. It is filled with a lot of greed and hatred itself.

    I don't believe that it has access to "the Truth" either. I don't believe in the presumed authenticity of revelation, resurrections, miracles, etc, which are all used to control the mind of man. I am a naturalist, and have a very naturalistic spirituality. There are probably genuine believers out there, and you Eliza sound like one of them; I am not against people believing what they want to believe as long as they let me believe what I want to believe. I am sorry if I have offended you. I don't really want to argue about religion. You seem like a genuinely nice person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Kick out the Catholic church and replace it with Shintoism.
    and Taoism and Stoicism.

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    Catholic church should allow priests, bishops, etc to marry. It won't solve the problem but might lead to less abuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Weird View Post
    Catholic church should allow priests, bishops, etc to marry. It won't solve the problem but might lead to less abuse.
    The Greek Orthodox church I was born and baptized into allows priests to marry. They actually have to be married before they can become a priest as far as I know. I have also seen them smoke cigarettes and drink wine. When I was 7 or 8 I remember asking the priest why he smoked and drank. He explained it to me. I felt like something was off. Another priest's daughter used to babysit me. I corrupted her when I was about 9 introducing her to a guy, who might fit the description of "bad boy". He lived in my neighborhood and she fell for him. I decided rather young that no one religion had any access to some ultimate Truth. I spent years exploring various religions only to find the Tao Te Ching was probably a better guide than the bible. A church by definition consists of an assembly of people who are called on. Satanists have the church of satan. Churches are nothing without the people and they are only as strong as their weakest links.

    The Holman Bible Dictionary, in its article "Church," explains the background of the word church (emphasis added throughout):


    "Church is the English translation of the Greek word ekklesia. The use of the Greek term prior to the emergence of the Christian church is important as two streams of meaning flow from the history of its usage into the New Testament understanding of church.

    "First, the Greek term which basically means 'called out' was commonly used to indicate an assembly of citizens of a Greek city and is so used in Acts 19:32, 39. The citizens who were quite conscious of their privileged status over against slaves and noncitizens were called to the assembly by a herald and dealt . . . with matters of common concern. When the early Christians understood themselves as constituting a church, no doubt exists that they perceived themselves as called out by God in Jesus Christ for a special purpose and that their status was a privileged one in Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:19).

    "Second, the Greek term was used more than one hundred times in the Greek translation of the Old Testament in common use in the time of Jesus. The Hebrew term (qahal) meant simply 'assembly' and could be used in a variety of ways, referring for example to an assembling of prophets (1 Sam. 19:20), soldiers (Num. 22:4), or the people of God (Deut. 9:10). The use of the term in the Old Testament in referring to the people of God is important for understanding the term 'church' in the New Testament.

    "The first Christians were [mostly] Jews who used the Greek translation of the Old Testament. For them to use a self-designation that was common in the Old Testament for the people of God reveals their understanding of the continuity that links the Old and New Testaments. The early Christians understood themselves as the people of the God who had revealed Himself in the Old Testament (Heb. 1:1-2), as the true children of Israel (Rom. 2:28-29) with Abraham as their father (Rom. 4:1-25), and as the people of the New Covenant prophesied in the Old Testament (Heb. 8:1-13).

    "As a consequence of this broad background of meaning in the Greek and Old Testament worlds, the term 'church' is used in the New Testament of a local congregation of called-out Christians, such as the 'church of God which is at Corinth' (1 Cor. 1:2), and also of the entire people of God, such as in the affirmation that Christ is 'the head over all things to the church, which is his body' (Eph. 1:22-23)."

    https://www.ucg.ca/bible-study-lesso...nd-word-church
    I think churches should be taxed if they have accumulated a lot of wealth, since they are profiting, and we should start with the Church of Scientology. I watched Leah Remini's docuseries on it and it operates like an organized crime syndicate. If people want to give money to their church then that is their choice but then to claim it as a tax write off makes the intention of giving in the first place seem rather shady. Jesus told the people to pay their taxes!

    A lot of charities or non profits should be taxed as well if they can't show that most of the income helps people rather than paying for high salaries and administrative costs. Trump had a charity which was just a scam to save on his taxes. I think he shut it down.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes, it's true that men who were raised to honored positions to represent the Catholic Church, who are entrusted to lead it, have perpetrated molestation and protected pederasts/pedophiles* and that is truly disgusting. I am thankful to our Merciful Lord that their crimes are now being exposed.

    However, these criminals are not the Church, as you accuse. It is rash and foolish to look at those who are liars and traitors to the teaching of the Church, those who do OPPOSITE of what She teaches and say these are the Church. Look to those who live the teachings of the church. We have thousands of Saints whose entire lives are recorded and investigated to an exaggerated extent, who have been found to be holy, having lived the teachings of the church, from every century, and from every walk of life, since year one, who show us what it means to live the Catholic life.

    Jesus promised there would be false prophets, and that there would be '"tares among the wheat" in His Church. Even one of his own twelve Apostles was a truly disgusting. People haven't changed and we haven't done better. Our Church is infiltrated by those trying to ruin it, and it's a very organized and systematic infiltration. For that, investigate the St. Gallen mafia because it's plan is behind this crime.

    Surely what we see happening today is the reason for the last part of this statement of Jesus: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Today we are surely watching hell beat against the church, yet we have been promised that hell will not prevail.
    ________________

    *The truth is that the name of the crime is pederasty - sex between a grown man and a boy. Just as horrible as child molestaion, but these perpetrators and protectors of perpetrators refuse to call it what they know it is. 80-84% of the victims are post pubescent boys over the age of 14, preyed upon by homosexual priests. For some suspicious reason, they are united (with the support of the media) in their endeavor to hide the true nature of the crime. And truly, it is organized crime.
    I am not sure if you are saying it is better because the boys are over 14 or that homosexuality is to blame. Maybe if it wasn't a sin a lot of young men who didn't want to sin wouldn't choose to become a priest because they felt they had to repress their natural desire to be in a relationship with a man. If they are devout Catholics I can see why joining the seminary is seen as the best option to lead a less sinful life. If they were embraced by the church their natural inclinations would not be internalized as wrong and they would be free to love who they want. I am sure gay men would still feel called but there would be fewer who joined because they could see no other options. Straight priest have sex with nuns and parishioners too. The reason the focus is on little boys is because girls are not allowed to be altar girls. There might be more cases involving girls if they were allowed to be.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Weird View Post
    Catholic church should allow priests, bishops, etc to marry. It won't solve the problem but might lead to less abuse.
    Hmm, since the abuse problem is proven to be an 80-84% a homosexual problem [and there is evidence that it is even higher], and you are saying that there might be less a problem if they were married, do you know any women who would want to marry a man (and have sons with him), in order to protect him from his desires to have sex with boys?

    I don't.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Hmm, since the abuse problem is proven to be an 80-84% a homosexual problem [and there is evidence that it is even higher], and you are saying that there might be less a problem if they were married, do you know any women who would want to marry a man (and have sons with him), in order to protect him from his desires to have sex with boys?

    I don't.
    I think what Dr. W means is if priests were allowed to marry, more straight males would become priests, thereby reducing the number of homosexual priests. However, being homosexual does not make one more likely to molest children, being a pedophile does. The Catholic Church needs to do a better job screening candidates and punishing offenders in regards to pedophilia. Also, priests having sex with under age teens, whether male or female is considered rape. These people should be behind bars.

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    What evo said

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    Also allowance of gay marriage in the church might help further limit pedos ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I am not sure if you are saying it is better because the boys are over 14 or that homosexuality is to blame.
    Nope. Not better for the age - that's why I clarified: "Just as horrible as child molestation". Just - all bad.

    As far as homosexuality being to blame, I am not thinking of blaming at all, just it's obvious it has something significant to do with it. What, I cannot say with any experiential or scholarly knowledge. I do not understand the problem, I only know the connection is significant (obviously!). I have no conclusions, only a desire (like everyone else) to get to the root of the problem so it can be fixed. I would like understanding. And on that note, I had it on my mind today to run some Q's/seek comment of a forum member here about this, who is a person who openly professes to be a practicing homosexual and who is also a person I perceive to be truthful -- and I probably will sometime, but I am in the thick of many things, including job applications and interviews to prepare for while I also work a busy schedule... so I might not get to my questions too quick, which aren't even fully formulated in my mind at this point, til things settle down a bit with me]. But what I am saying is, when the statistics are that overboard [even more overboard than the overboard statistical 80-85%, considering that, according to long-popular and much-touted statistics, only 10% of the priests should be homosexuals], and when you are "investigating" the problem to get to the root of it, and refuse to address the biggest most blaring statistical fact, and also get the media to help you mask the fact, then it is evident that you love/idolize something OTHER than the truth, as a large percentage of our leaders have recently made perfectly clear, by systematically refusing to make ANY reference to such blaring and irrefutable facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Maybe if it wasn't a sin a lot of young men who didn't want to sin wouldn't choose to become a priest because they felt they had to repress their natural desire to be in a relationship with a man.

    The Holy Church (by that I mean that actual bride of Christ, the actual teaching of the Church - not corrupt people and leaders in it who choose to live in opposition of the Church, by their own rules) does not condemn a man's natural attraction to men, but expects him to live his life chastely, as any Catholic is called to, and expects a priest to live the chaste AND celibate* life he vows himself to live (and if he breaks his vow, like anyone else who breaks a vow, he is to repent). [There are exceptions even in the Roman rite, for example, already married men who are ordained, and then he is not expected to have a celibate marriage, but a normal one]. It's not that hard to be celibate. Particularly and especially because God gives us all the supernatural graces we need to do His will. ALL of them. So if one, for any reason, particularly needs a LOT of supernatural grace in order to be chaste as God calls him to, then God will give him ALL the heaps of grace he needs.

    EVERYONE is called to live chastely in the context of their place in life. A priest chooses to make a vow of chastity when he becomes a priest. No one is making him become a priest. He has years of discernment to decide this before he makes his vows of chaste celibacy for life, and is encouraged to bow out if he feels it is not for him.

    This chaste life is the teaching of God, not a teaching created by a democracy. So we don't get to say, "Gee, God, I don't like that one, so we are going to vote on another way to think about that." It's not about what feels right to us. "There is a way which seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." God's ways are not our ways. What seems fine to us is not always fine for us, according to the One Who created and designed us and knows us and loves us more deeply than any human can ever know or love us. His reasons are perfect and based on His unfathomable love for us and His omniscience. So when he says all sex belongs only in marriage, between one man and one woman, it's a perfect law** from the One Who is perfectly loving, merciful and just.

    People aren't forced to be Catholic, but, no matter the sacrifice of any desires, vices, previously cherished activities, or habits, people will also choose, over and above all those loves, to be Catholic, and they will keep choosing Catholic, until the end of time, because Jesus, and the Church He founded to give us more of Him, is a pearl of great price, worth giving up everything for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    If they are devout Catholics I can see why joining the seminary is seen as the best option to lead a less sinful life.
    Yes, certainly - for a devout Catholic. It should and has been a place for a young man to experience true fatherhood and brotherhood as God designed it, which he may have not experienced in his own life previously. But devout Catholics of any orientation have been unwelcome and turned out of seminaries for some decades (that is, since the 50's, at least). In more recent years, the last decade or two, the tide has been turning, and once again devout men are finding and keeping their places in the seminaries). But the kind of men you mention here were victims of a planned infiltration of the Church by those who are trying to ruin it (they won't, but She is suffering) , and many seminarians have been groomed before they even got there and/or were preyed upon when in seminary, while good and devout men with a true vocation were systematically weeded out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    If they were embraced by the church their natural inclinations would not be internalized as wrong and they would be free to love who they want.
    The church embraces everyone and recognizes we are ALL in the need of the supernatural grace of God. As to loving, that is what it is all about. Loving is for everyone, and also chastity is for everyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I am sure gay men would still feel called but there would be fewer who joined because they could see no other options. Straight priest have sex with nuns and parishioners too. The reason the focus is on little boys is because girls are not allowed to be altar girls. There might be more cases involving girls if they were allowed to be.
    Ug. Well, there always have and always will be sinners. But there have not always been THIS many in the hierarchy. Anyway, we have had altar girls since Vatican 2 - a long, long time ago. I think the altar boy/girls conclusion is a guess of yours, not based on extensive knowledge of the cases? Yes, it has been part of the grooming in some cases, and grooming has been an issue in most or all of those overwhelmingly pederast cases, and the bigger issue is, what is the story behind the worldwide exact-same grooming techniques? For that everything points to the systematic infiltration of the St. Gallen Mafia. I heard someone recently comment that we don't have the same sort of intensive investigation into incoming priests as the FBI does... And then again, there is a good case for the fact that it was well-screened, and that the perverts were picked (and promoted) because they WERE perverts... But this is speculation, even if somewhat informed. The root cause needs to be identified, and more rot exposed.

    A popular cultural idea from those outside the church is that natural sexual frustration must be the core of it. Yet, these are unnatural acts against minors (that we all know are wrong, so, we are all outraged), therefore this clearly is not a "natural" sexual frustration to be remedied by a natural marriage, as is often suggested - as if a wife was a miracle worker. (People who make this "marriage-as-a-solution" suggestion forget the fact that "pedophiles", as the media likes to refer to them as, are known to never reform!)

    I believe (and I am not alone) that the core problem is that these priests, bishops, and on up, have lost their, or never possessed, supernatural faith. They are therefore powerless to give up their vices, which, like any vice, has them in a grip-hold and runs their life. So they need to fraternize with others who will support their vice, and they need to create a new religion where whatever they feel like doing is a-okay. And they are united in their vigilant and underhanded efforts to try to somehow make this happen - even though it can't, and won't - because the dogma of the Church has never changed and it never can. So while they are doing great damage to the faithful, in the end they will not succeed. And meanwhile there are Catholics all over the world praying and making reparation for these souls lost on "the wide road with the really bad eternal ending", and this is where the REAL power really is. Yes, that holy water and those plastic rosaries - that is truly powerful stuff. So it looks bad now, but God wins in the end.
    ____________
    * You should know a spiritual mystery: that celibacy is not a less-than or a do-without state. There are great, great spiritual graces in the chaste, celibate life.

    **It's God's way, and it's no surprise that all civilizations that uphold this teaching/value rise, and when they dash it aside, so does their civilization with it (it falls). So looking around we can see it does not bode well for our once-great and growing civilization, does it?.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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  40. #40
    كما في الأعلى كذلك في الأسفل Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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