Can you help? Am I ENFp or INFp?

[ToTheMoon]

I'm gonna chalk a lot of that up to growing up. The impulse itself that you eventually tempered sounds very much like outbursts Se dual-seeking in my opinion. The function we need and try (clumsily and simplistically) to manifest ourselves when we aren't getting enough of it. LSI's allegedly will have some poorly received Fe outbursts from time to time looking for their dual.

Okay, I'm not sure I get the whole theory behind what you just wrote but I'll educate myself so thanks for pointing this out.

Si roughly is the comfort, wellness, and pleasure seeking function. Si-ignoring in an SLE is often characterized by disregarding internal indications of injury, sickness, or fatigue in order to carry on with a given task. SEI's Si program is like the stereotypical "comfy mom" archetype.

Si for IEI is the "Role" function, or what people turn to when their Program + Creative functions aren't working. For IEE it's their Dual-Seeking or Suggestive function, love it but suck at it and look for it in others.

Okay, so what about having it both ways? I'm a very passive person, I'd just stay at home my whole life and I've always dreamt of someone who would activate me. It's easy for me to relax and do nothing, so much so, that I finally get restless and angry, especaially when someone insists on just staying still. Not that I would ever express that anger openly but I'm working on that .

On the other hand I do like it when someone offers to take me to a restaurant and lures me with fine food. But now that I think of it, maybe it's more because I feel teased that someone would spend their time with me (and their money on me) and 'show me off' rather than because of the food&comfort itself? Okay, so probably the first option for me then, Role function!

I gave you a link to the aspects of valued functions in the other thread. For an IEI Te is the vulnerable function but IEE has it as its Activating. For your job it might be described as "the business of your business." Managing the books, the numbers, and the processes.

Oh, sorry, I'm a bit owerwhelmed by all the responses I got here, I may have missed your link. I'll go look for it. I can't say I'm connecting with either of Te descriptions too much.

Sorry I had the Id functions backwards for IEE. It would be ignoring for IEE. I definitely don't see Ni-ignoring in what you described.

Ni as leading sounds familiar to me although I'm not sure I'm so 'stoic' and detached.

Well shit that almost sounds like my apartment half the time lol. Dishes don't get done until it's time to cook again. If you had a roommate whose whole thing was to keep that stuff tidy and "homey" would that just be the best for you or would you respond more "lol okay. w/e" and get a little irritated over time?

I've lived with neat freaks and it kind of made me want to lose my mind.

Hmm, I guess I just don't care much? I've lived with a boyfriend who liked to clean and I was okay with that. I mean I'm not opposed to having a clean home . As long as he didn't tell me that I should get more organized/remember to put dishes in the dishwasher myself, I was fine.

This is why I'm not typically a fan of video typing people more than talking to them. People get nervous and come off totally different, or try to fill an expected role, or be crowd-pleasing. People would type me as some sort of mega introvert if I made a video.

Yes, that has crossed my mind.

Yup, it would be one of those types but I'm not the biggest fan of video typing and I keep coming back around to your very hostile reactions to novel ideas. Every Delta NF I've interacted with is extremely accomodating of novel notions on the pretext of being kind or "if it's authentic to them, then it's just as valid." My stereotype is that a Delta NF would say identifying your gender as a car radio is just as good as anything else, and that I'm a huge jerk for making that joke.

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Okay, so maybe a bit of a backstory is needed here. I was brought up by a single mother who was (is) extremly judgmental and uber-controlling and aggresive towards the world (I think she's ESTJ if that helps). She was also violent, both emotionally and physically. In order to, umm, survive her, I just took in everything she said and thought, all of her opinions and her way of being with people. I mimicked her. She would not have me another way, the only correct way to do things was her way. There was no other adult around me to show me a different approach to life and people, no alternative role model. I never rebelled against my mother, not until I was (gasp) about 25. By then I think her steel grip on me lightened slightly and I figured I could have my own opinions on things. That's when I started to see that being judgmental and opinionated at that is actually draining for me and that I'm way more relaxed when I go with 'live and let live' attitude and curiosity about things that are different. That, in itself, was a rebellion and it still creates tension between us whenever I try to show her that others' points of view are valuable and valid, while she insists that they don't get the whole picture (and she does) and I'm flighty and should have strong opinions on things (I do but in a different way than her, so...).
So there's that.

[Sisyphean]

Okay, I'm not sure I get the whole theory behind what you just wrote but I'll educate myself so thanks for pointing this out.

As a big asterisk on this, I have my own personal theory that people who are "disintegrated" in an Enneagram sense fall into their super-ego functions (alternate axis of your Program and Creative) and behave badly like their impressions of their least compatible types. As an example, I know an LII (Ti Ne) who went through a very bad time and coped very poorly, and tried to compensate by acting like a bad caricature of an SEE (Se Fi). That may also explain my confusion given what you said about your experience with your mom. If this is true a disintegrated EII or IEE might behave like an unhealthy SLE or LSI respectively. As an SLE, novelty for its own sake to humor someone's "inner authenticity" tends to piss me off and on a bad day I might tell it to fuck off.

The suggestive or "dual-seeking" function is the function on the other end of the axis of your lead/program function. Se-lead SLEs and SEEs have Ni suggestive. In intertype relation theory, a type's "dual" is the type who has your suggestive as their lead/program, and your activating/mobilizing as their creative function, so all the things you like but suck at are the things they like and are best at. The things you desire are the things they just simply are. The theory with the dual-seeking function is that when the environment and people around aren't giving as much of it as a person needs the person will try to generate that themselves to get some and effectively send out an SOS for their dual. But the Suggestive Function is the one we value and are worst at, so it's a very basic and clumsy manifestation.

An IEE's dual is SLI, and EII's dual is LSE.

IEE - Ne Fi
SLI - Si Te
EII - Fi Ne
LSE - Te Si

An IEI's dual is SLE
IEI - Ni Fe
SLE - Se Ti

Oh, sorry, I'm a bit owerwhelmed by all the responses I got here, I may have missed your link. I'll go look for it. I can't say I'm connecting with either of Te descriptions too much.

No worries, just making sure you didn't miss it. Does this Te sound more like you?

Te as suggestive function in ESI (ISFj; Dreiser) and EII (INFj; Dostoyevsky) - this person easily believes in facts and figures, often turn a deaf ear to everything but these. Keeps to places where he knows what to do in every situation. Suggestible by the external order of things, which is often the order that was in place during his upbringing: the political system, social norms, etc. Reacts sensitively to social changes: "God grant you do not live in an era of change." Always moves in the direction of highest order and carefully avoids chaos, is inspired by this order and worries that in future it might change. In this regard, may gravitate towards work in the military, which has the force of statute. It is important to him that the environment is always organized in accordance to rules and laws that he is accustomed to, that this order does not contradict the facts of objective reality. It is also important to know who should be in what position, what needs to be done, what documents must be collected, for what purpose, where they should be submitted, what is the correct way to fill them out. Feels most comfortable in situations where there is only one interpretation of correct action, without any admixture with elements of subjectivity: "in this such case, this should be done". Knowledge of the facts of the situation often replaces true understanding of the underlying problems. Understanding becomes superficial, simply a collection of surface data and statistics, laws and regulations. He does not like long and detailed explanations, will immediately interrupt and say: "So what is this in actuality?". He wants to get a working solution or order right away, not the rationale behind it. For example: "2x2=4." This is an already established rule. Likes terminology, you can sometimes talk to him only using some accepted terms and this will be sufficient. Does not like those who destroy the norms of behavior, for example, those who break the chain of command. Especially gets influenced by the facts that he sees with his own eyes or can touch with own hands. Thus he can fall victim to scams that provide specious claims and facts, especially if the scam is done out in the open ("simple dexterity of hands and no tricks").

Ni as leading sounds familiar to me although I'm not sure I'm so 'stoic' and detached.

How about this. If you're EII instead of IEE you would have Demonstrative Ni as your strongest non-valued function

Ni as Demonstrative Function (EII, LII)

The individual is quite adept at following discussions on the developments of present trends into the future and their meaning, and contributing to them on occasion if he feels so inclined, but he does not take that as seriously compared to investigating and bring up to discussion new alternatives and possible topics in the areas he is interested in at present. He usually dismisses if not outright ridicules claims that everything is set and will continue along the same path and instead prefers to bring up to discussion potential variations and ways out, unusual and rare possibilities, new horizons and enterprising ideas.

Okay, so maybe a bit of a backstory is needed here. I was brought up by a single mother who was (is) extremly judgmental and uber-controlling and aggresive towards the world (I think she's ESTJ if that helps). She was also violent, both emotionally and physically. In order to, umm, survive her, I just took in everything she said and thought, all of her opinions and her way of being with people. I mimicked her. She would not have me another way, the only correct way to do things was her way. There was no other adult around me to show me a different approach to life and people, no alternative role model. I never rebelled against my mother, not until I was (gasp) about 25. By then I think her steel grip on me lightened slightly and I figured I could have my own opinions on things. That's when I started to see that being judgmental and opinionated at that is actually draining for me and that I'm way more relaxed when I go with 'live and let live' attitude and curiosity about things that are different. That, in itself, was a rebellion and it still creates tension between us whenever I try to show her that others' points of view are valuable and valid, while she insists that they don't get the whole picture (and she does) and I'm flighty and should have strong opinions on things (I do but in a different way than her, so...).
So there's that.

Youch, sorry to hear that. Glad yougot yourself into a better spot, tho. Assuming my hunch about Enneagram disintegration is accurate that would explain my confusion about your earlier phase. Sorry for any confusion mine may have caused.

[ToTheMoon]

As a big asterisk on this, I have my own personal theory that people who are "disintegrated" in an Enneagram sense fall into their super-ego functions (alternate axis of your Program and Creative) and behave badly like their impressions of their least compatible types. As an example, I know an LII (Ti Ne) who went through a very bad time and coped very poorly, and tried to compensate by acting like a bad caricature of an SEE (Se Fi). That may also explain my confusion given what you said about your experience with your mom. If this is true a disintegrated EII or IEE might behave like an unhealthy SLE or LSI respectively. As an SLE, novelty for its own sake to humor someone's "inner authenticity" tends to piss me off and on a bad day I might tell it to fuck off.

That sounds sound to me, but naturally I'm no expert. It does seem to explain the effect my bringing up had on me so why not, I'm gonna say you're onto something .

The suggestive or "dual-seeking" function is the function on the other end of the axis of your lead/program function. Se-lead SLEs and SEEs have Ni suggestive. In intertype relation theory, a type's "dual" is the type who has your suggestive as their lead/program, and your activating/mobilizing as their creative function, so all the things you like but suck at are the things they like and are best at. The things you desire are the things they just simply are. The theory with the dual-seeking function is that when the environment and people around aren't giving as much of it as a person needs the person will try to generate that themselves to get some and effectively send out an SOS for their dual. But the Suggestive Function is the one we value and are worst at, so it's a very basic and clumsy manifestation.

An IEE's dual is SLI, and EII's dual is LSE.

IEE - Ne Fi
SLI - Si Te
EII - Fi Ne
LSE - Te Si

An IEI's dual is SLE
IEI - Ni Fe
SLE - Se Ti

Hah, how fun. One of my best friends is a girl I met by complete chance for quasi-professional reasons and we just clicked. She's self-confirmed ESTJ. We just love each other to bits and somehow naturally do the right things for each other. When I think about my mother who I suspect is also ESTJ, she's very much like my friend, only kinda weirdly 'distorted' in some places.

No worries, just making sure you didn't miss it. Does this Te sound more like you?

Te as suggestive function in ESI (ISFj; Dreiser) and EII (INFj; Dostoyevsky)

I mean sometimes, maybe... But I might just be in denial about my Te .

How about this. If you're EII instead of IEE you would have Demonstrative Ni as your strongest non-valued function

Ni as Demonstrative Function (EII, LII)

This sounds pretty true to me. Although I think I've now reached that zone where anything sounds kinda true (except for things that don't make any sense but that's a pretty low threshold). I need to refresh my brain .

Youch, sorry to hear that. Glad yougot yourself into a better spot, tho. Assuming my hunch about Enneagram disintegration is accurate that would explain my confusion about your earlier phase. Sorry for any confusion mine may have caused.

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No worries! It's in the past and I'm comfortable with it now. Thanks for your input and time, it's greatly appreciated.

[Sisyphean]

That sounds sound to me, but naturally I'm no expert. It does seem to explain the effect my bringing up had on me so why not, I'm gonna say you're onto something .

Awesome lol glad another person does. Seems to hold true across a number of examples.

Hah, how fun. One of my best friends is a girl I met by complete chance for quasi-professional reasons and we just clicked. She's self-confirmed ESTJ. We just love each other to bits and somehow naturally do the right things for each other. When I think about my mother who I suspect is also ESTJ, she's very much like my friend, only kinda weirdly 'distorted' in some places.

Duality is a shitload of fun if/when you can find it

I mean sometimes, maybe... But I might just be in denial about my Te .

lol likely. The suggestive function is the weakest that you like, so understandings of it are always dog shit. Ni to me may as well just be black magic. It exists behind an event horizon, cognitively, for me. The most I can conceptualize is "meaning" and its use only comes in quick flashes of insight that get translated through higher functions.

This sounds pretty true to me. Although I think I've now reached that zone where anything sounds kinda true (except for things that don't make any sense but that's a pretty low threshold). I need to refresh my brain .

lmao sounds good. Eventually comparison to other confirmed types can help dial some of this in. I was typed LSI-Se for a while but eventually it set in that I'm not 1-dimensional Fe (referring back to Luminous Lynx's link) like the LSI's on here.

No worries! It's in the past and I'm comfortable with it now. Thanks for your input and time, it's greatly appreciated.

That's great to hear and my pleasure.