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Thread: Can you help? Am I ENFp or INFp?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This really sounds to me like Te-PoLR. You have an irrational and probably unjustified fear of making mistakes which involve money or facts. This fear is often described as feeling like “You suck at something and you know it”, but it is really having no confidence in your competence in an area, regardless of your actual competence.

    I feel the same way about Si. I probably can arrange a comfortable environment and take care of my health as well as anyone else, but I feel unconfident in these areas and I assume that absolutely everyone is better at this than I am.
    Yeah, it felt like an attack on my PoLR alright. The best I can put it into words, it ss an irrational fear of the organized world. I don't understand it, there are too many rules, it's fussy and makes no sense, and how am I supposed to know all the rules when no one taught me? It's impossible to know beforehand which rule I'll encounter and how to behave around it. So it's more about this than money or facts per se. Is that still Te? Or more Ti?

    Two comments:
    One, you should get another opinion about the number of digits you need to use in your accounting. Your accountant might be incompetent or greedy or correct, we don't know but you should find out. Think of it as a detective story, which you should be excellent at researching to write.
    Good idea, thanks!

    Two, I was talking to this woman who is a small business owner who is Te-PoLR. Her crepe pan broke and new ones cost upwards of $1000. I offered to fix it for her for free. She recoiled at my offer, saying that I probably didn't have the right electricity to test it. I told her that I have every kind of electricity and that would not be the problem if I couldn't fix it.
    She thought about it for a few seconds and refused, instead choosing to buy a new crepe pan. I could tell that she felt like my offer to fix her appliance was making her feel like I was telling her that she is stupid (when I wasn't saying or even thinking that at all), so rather than admit that she felt entirely out of her area of expertise, she paid a lot of money for a new pan that she probably didn't need. (It probably just needed a new switch, since electrical connectors are the least reliable part of any electrical apparatus.)

    That's Te-PoLR, but the feelings that you get when you stray into your PoLR area are the same for everyone.
    Hmm, I'd probably pay someone to fix my broken sewing machine rather than buy a new one but if someone offered to help for free and I was short on money, I would consider it. I'd probably feel uneasy about not paying a friend because I believe everyone should be rewarded for their job. The situation you wrote about brought Se to my mind more than Te --not saying it's a correct impression, it's just that I see prowess in fixing things as more of a Se than Te thing. Maybe I have it backwards though? Or maybe these things overlap somehow.
    At this again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Thanks for commenting. Can you explain more about this?
    (sorry, I answered to Adam's point basically.)

    how was she supposed to know how to do accounting if someone doesn't explain her? it's not like we're born knowing how to fill a paycheck and whatnot. that's not Te = process result. she's lacking Ti = knowhow, instructions. it hurts when she's shown she can't manage it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    (sorry, I answered to Adam's point basically.)

    how was she supposed to know how to do accounting if someone doesn't explain her? it's not like we're born knowing how to fill a paycheck and whatnot. that's not Te = process result. she's lacking Ti = knowhow, instructions. it hurts when she's shown she can't manage it.
    Yeah, this does make sense to me. If someone shows me step by step how to do stuff, I'll do it as shown and won't stray off the path. That way, if something I did turns out wrong, it's not even my fault, because I was told this was the right thing to do! It's someone else's fault for teaching me wrong! Yeah, I'm hopeless with things like that, with procedures. I always worry I'll do the wrong thing. Example: in an airport I will always feel totally overwhelmed, I never know where to go, what to do in what order, who to show the papers, when, what, in the end it turns to 'whyyyyy!? Let's just not go at all.' Whenever I'm on a train, I'm about 70% convinced I took the wrong one and will end up in a different place than planned. That's actually why I hate travelling.

    (I also never read instructions for putting stuff together, I just intuit how to do it and get angry if I can't make it work .)
    At this again.
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    lol I'm the same :/ <3

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    Oh, and I never even attempted to learn how to drive. If my low sensing wasn't enought, there's all these rules to remember and obey and I'm sure if I was actually driving, I'd just implode out of pure desperation one day.
    At this again.
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    lol girl

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Oh, and I never even attempted to learn how to drive. If my low sensing wasn't enought, there's all these rules to remember and obey and I'm sure if I was actually driving, I'd just implode out of pure desperation one day.
    thought I was the only one. I'm still young but getting a driver's license is at the bottom of my priorities list honestly. I am convinced that if I get it, I'll cause more accidents than alcohol. I have watched people drive and the tenacity and attention required both seem like things I lack. Not to mention that you also need to be triple-cautious, in case some fucko pulls an action movie stunt in traffic and endangers both his and your safety.
    Oh, and drunk drivers.

    As for the accounting situation, I've faced something similar myself but no $$$ were involved. I hate bureaucracy because I can never be sure how a certain thing should be completed. The instructions are not clear enough or maybe I'm too stupid.
    Or both.
    It took me 4 or 5 hours to complete a candidate information sheet for an exam that I signed up for last summer. I got it wrong the first time and had to re-submit the application with a "proper ID copy". Then I messed up the payment process and had to wait an hour until they'd let me pay again.
    The 12 hours waiting for a receipt felt like complete Hell to me, thinking about all the things that I could've gotten wrong during my third time of completing that soul-draining form.

    And this was only an exam sign-up form. I can't possibly imagine what it will be like when I need to do taxes.
    Guess I need to clench my buttocks harder next time and go on

    It's not over, anyway. I have to apply for a student loan and the form is FOURTEEN pages long. There's this woman that's supposed to help with the application but I have some other, pre-application procedures to go through before that and a "special", custom-made applicant sheet that's already raising me some question marks ?_?

    The more I read about you on this thread, the more I relate. Thing is, you're way more civil and composed than I would probably ever be. But the struggles and the pains are quite relatable, yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babooshka View Post
    thought I was the only one. I'm still young but getting a driver's license is at the bottom of my priorities list honestly. I am convinced that if I get it, I'll cause more accidents than alcohol. I have watched people drive and the tenacity and attention required both seem like things I lack. Not to mention that you also need to be triple-cautious, in case some fucko pulls an action movie stunt in traffic and endangers both his and your safety.
    Oh, and drunk drivers.

    As for the accounting situation, I've faced something similar myself but no $$$ were involved. I hate bureaucracy because I can never be sure how a certain thing should be completed. The instructions are not clear enough or maybe I'm too stupid.
    Or both.
    It took me 4 or 5 hours to complete a candidate information sheet for an exam that I signed up for last summer. I got it wrong the first time and had to re-submit the application with a "proper ID copy". Then I messed up the payment process and had to wait an hour until they'd let me pay again.
    The 12 hours waiting for a receipt felt like complete Hell to me, thinking about all the things that I could've gotten wrong during my third time of completing that soul-draining form.

    And this was only an exam sign-up form. I can't possibly imagine what it will be like when I need to do taxes.
    Guess I need to clench my buttocks harder next time and go on

    It's not over, anyway. I have to apply for a student loan and the form is FOURTEEN pages long. There's this woman that's supposed to help with the application but I have some other, pre-application procedures to go through before that and a "special", custom-made applicant sheet that's already raising me some question marks ?_?

    The more I read about you on this thread, the more I relate. Thing is, you're way more civil and composed than I would probably ever be. But the struggles and the pains are quite relatable, yes.
    Wow, your struggles with bureaucracy DO sound like me, to a T (see what I did there? :>). Re-submitting forms for the millionth time is so me. Also compulsively re-reading and re-doing my posts on forums, groups etc. Always something to correct, something to add, something I forgot to say.

    I feel you about that long form. Maybe ask someone to go with you through that pre-application procedures and help you stay focused?

    Btw. Funny thing is, each year I do my mother's taxes when it's time to turn in the tax return statement. And lo and behold, I have no trouble with that. She's always so panicked about it but I'm chill. Filling in the details is fine with me and when the forms are clear, I can follow instructions. I will fret a bit and I need to focus because it's easy for me to skip some important detail, but mostly I'm just impatient with my mum's panicking. So actually filling in the forms and following instructions I can do, it's mostly just boring and I don't want to do it. It's just when it turns out I did something wrong, took a wrong turn, broke some rule I didn't know about and it was pointed out to me, that I feel trapped and hopeless. After all, I didn't mean to! I'm innocent, officer, please don't arrest me! I just didn't know!
    At this again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Thanks @Vice! I have nothing against being any type, really, so delta nf is fine by me! That said, I keep being confused at where so many of you are seeing either Base or Creative Fi. I have a hard time accessing this function internally and that's why it weirds me out when I hear it is so pronounced in my expressions. I'd appreciate it if you could share what it is that made you think Fi dom for me. Thanks!
    Sorry for the late reply. I’ve had a long week of working, partying, and partying so hard I landed in the hospital. LOL. (Thus goes my crazy meat bag mixture of creative Fi, PoLR Ti, and Ep... or beta values if I’m a beta, who knows. See we all have our issues with getting our types. )

    Well to me it seems you sort of lack the flexibility (and fickleness) of creative Fi and have more of the inner stability of base Fi. In your answers and video you seem to be pulling from inside yourself more than I would expect from an extravert. ENFp and ESFp also put situational relationships ahead of what makes logical sense (and often health, for Si ignoring SEE - like me) and you don’t seem to do that from what I’ve seen. That’s probably the biggest stand out of creative Fi to me.

    Base Fi is more sure of what it won’t do for relationships, especially ESI. At least that’s my interpretation. You seem more sure of where your relationships stand to begin with. Creative Fi is more wishy washy or unsure, or sure one minute and not the next. You vibe more secure in Fi. I also doubt any T type as you’ve made the NF part clear. Doing taxes doesn’t make you any less so in the same way that your mom not doing it doesn’t make her not LSE. Which is another thing - YOU CAN HAVE ISSUES WITH YOUR DUAL. Duals are two very different people in the same way that conflict is two very different people; not to mention health levels of both.

    You also seem easy to push and pressure so we know low Se is confirmed - I think Se PoLR or suggestive is a lot more clear than Se role. Let the Beta STs do the explainin’ there.

    I hope that helped somewhat, but my low Ti ass probably made it more confusing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vice View Post
    Sorry for the late reply. I’ve had a long week of working, partying, and partying so hard I landed in the hospital. LOL. (Thus goes my crazy meat bag mixture of creative Fi, PoLR Ti, and Ep... or beta values if I’m a beta, who knows. See we all have our issues with getting our types. )
    No problem! And I know that bit where you party till you drop. I hope you are well.

    Well to me it seems you sort of lack the flexibility (and fickleness) of creative Fi and have more of the inner stability of base Fi. In your answers and video you seem to be pulling from inside yourself more than I would expect from an extravert. ENFp and ESFp also put situational relationships ahead of what makes logical sense (and often health, for Si ignoring SEE - like me) and you don’t seem to do that from what I’ve seen. That’s probably the biggest stand out of creative Fi to me.
    Okay, but this doesn't really explain where you see Fi. Not just introversion, but Fi specifically. Not saying I'm not a bit rigid because I am . I try to hide it and people usually see me as laid back but I know full well how much that costs me. Kudos to you for noticing that!

    Base Fi is more sure of what it won’t do for relationships, especially ESI. At least that’s my interpretation. You seem more sure of where your relationships stand to begin with. Creative Fi is more wishy washy or unsure, or sure one minute and not the next. You vibe more secure in Fi.
    Interesting impression here, about how I seem more cofindent of what I won't do for a relationship. I have to think about it, really, because I'm not sure I have these clear boundaries in me. A lot of the world feels very circumstantial to me and it would be a lie if I said I have a lot of rules that I follow for myself. It would be great if you could explain how you see Fi vs Fe for me.

    You also seem easy to push and pressure so we know low Se is confirmed - I think Se PoLR or suggestive is a lot more clear than Se role. Let the Beta STs do the explainin’ there.
    Low Se confirmed . But I personally disagree with PoLR Se. I enjoy Se-related things way too much. I'd say I'm easier to pull rather than push. I hate being told what to do but I like to be invited to follow a person who has their own initiative to do things. This is a huge difference in my mind. Also, while I could be seen as easy to push, I am well aware of my own pushing influence on others. I've made so many people lose all their initiative it feels like I'm a natural de-activator of people I come in close relationships with; my influence on others is very strongly relaxing and enabling in a Si kind of way. Which I usually hate because I often get close with people who don't have a lot of initiative to begin with, while I need someone to pull me out and push me to do stuff, so we both end up sunken on the sofa and while they might actually enjoy their Si, too much of it makes me very bored and unhappy and itching to do something. And that's where I'd love to see some Se from someone else to pull me out of the sofa.

    I also doubt any T type as you’ve made the NF part clear. Doing taxes doesn’t make you any less so in the same way that your mom not doing it doesn’t make her not LSE. Which is another thing - YOU CAN HAVE ISSUES WITH YOUR DUAL. Duals are two very different people in the same way that conflict is two very different people; not to mention health levels of both.
    Yeah, I tend to agree about not being a T type. But honestly, if a dual relation can form in a very asymmetrical way where one person has a total and brutal control over the other and the other is being forced to conform to ideas and beliefs of what is good for them, according to the controlling person, just because, oh, *different health levels* and *types play out in different ways*, then I do not believe in anything socionics has to say anymore. It's just not soft science anymore. It's liquid bullshit. Sorry.

    I hope that helped somewhat, but my low Ti ass probably made it more confusing.
    Not confusing, really. I think you've just helped me clarify some things in my mind. Thanks!
    At this again.
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    I had some time and perspective to look at the acconting problem again and I wanna say this was definitely a Te/Ti clash.

    The way I see it, I used Ti, as I always do, to solve a Te problem. I adhered to my personal logical understanding of a system and an interpretation of it that in my mind was reasonable --this is Ti. My point of view was of the Ti sort: in my mind, it makes no sense to use 4 digits because there isn't even such a thing as a 10th or 100th of a cent because I never use it.

    Obviously, though, financial matters don't work that way and in an objective system, there is such a thing as a 10th or 100th of a cent and it is used for the whole system to function in a logical and smooth way, no matter what I think about it . That is Te. I personally have a hard time adhering to objective and external systems because my thinking is of the opposite attitude. Te irritates me. And since I, as a person (not as a type) react to my own irritation with irrational fear, I also got scared. Is Te my PoLR? Who knows. It could be my Ignoring, for all I know.

    But, in conclusion, my thinking: Ti. My problem area: Te.
    At this again.
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    New observation.

    A while ago a group of my friends engaged in a heated discussion about the Notre-Dame cathedral burning down. One friend wrote quite an angry post about how people should calm down with the drama and stop posting selfies taken with the cathedral because that piece of ancestry will easily be rebuilt so there's no reason to get all teary eyed. She remarked about how other monuments are easily overlooked and less favored and that there are many local places people should visit too, and not just look up to the famous buidings like the cathedral. Her argumentation was that she's an artist with solid education in art history and that's the place she's coming from when writing that post.
    To that, another one of my friends said that the first friend's opinion was hateful and wrong and she shouldn't tell others how to feel about a symbol that the cathedral was. The cathedral is more than just a building, it's a cultural symbol that's widely recognized and easily relatable. She said that people should be taught to value art and history by example and not by speeches against their feelings. She's an educated cultural anthropologist and upon that she bases her belief that all reactions are valid and no one should be told that their opinions on the matter are wrong.


    Sooo... it all got me irritated but I couldn't quite tell why. It took a few days before it sunk in and I realized the both of them used THE SAME PATTERN to shun someone else. The second person actually did the very same thing that the first person did: she criticized her for having an opinion and built it upon the foundation that her education makes her more knowledgeable on the subject so she knows what should be said on the subject. I saw this as ridiculous and my second friend seemed illogical and almost hipocritical (although I'm sure she was being as honest as the first friend and that hipocrisy wasn't conscious on her part)


    To my utmost horror, I called the second friend out. I seriously hope she doesn't respond because I'm terribly afraid of confrontation. I lack knowledge to defend my view. All I said was based upon my noticing of the pattern. That, and I couldn't stand the lack of logic. Why would you criticise someone else for doing the exact same thing you're doing?


    That whole process on my side consisted of:
    1. unconscious perception of the pattern (which got me alert)
    2. then formulating an impartial judgment (which made me feel super, had an 'I'm so smart' moment )
    3. then letting that judgment into the world (which is scary).


    What do we have here? Which functions would you call?
    At this again.
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    ethics of relationship, Fi

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    New observation.

    A while ago a group of my friends engaged in a heated discussion about the Notre-Dame cathedral burning down. One friend wrote quite an angry post about how people should calm down with the drama and stop posting selfies taken with the cathedral because that piece of ancestry will easily be rebuilt so there's no reason to get all teary eyed. She remarked about how other monuments are easily overlooked and less favored and that there are many local places people should visit too, and not just look up to the famous buidings like the cathedral. Her argumentation was that she's an artist with solid education in art history and that's the place she's coming from when writing that post.
    To that, another one of my friends said that the first friend's opinion was hateful and wrong and she shouldn't tell others how to feel about a symbol that the cathedral was. The cathedral is more than just a building, it's a cultural symbol that's widely recognized and easily relatable. She said that people should be taught to value art and history by example and not by speeches against their feelings. She's an educated cultural anthropologist and upon that she bases her belief that all reactions are valid and no one should be told that their opinions on the matter are wrong.


    Sooo... it all got me irritated but I couldn't quite tell why. It took a few days before it sunk in and I realized the both of them used THE SAME PATTERN to shun someone else. The second person actually did the very same thing that the first person did: she criticized her for having an opinion and built it upon the foundation that her education makes her more knowledgeable on the subject so she knows what should be said on the subject. I saw this as ridiculous and my second friend seemed illogical and almost hipocritical (although I'm sure she was being as honest as the first friend and that hipocrisy wasn't conscious on her part)


    To my utmost horror, I called the second friend out. I seriously hope she doesn't respond because I'm terribly afraid of confrontation. I lack knowledge to defend my view. All I said was based upon my noticing of the pattern. That, and I couldn't stand the lack of logic. Why would you criticise someone else for doing the exact same thing you're doing?


    That whole process on my side consisted of:
    1. unconscious perception of the pattern (which got me alert)
    2. then formulating an impartial judgment (which made me feel super, had an 'I'm so smart' moment )
    3. then letting that judgment into the world (which is scary).


    What do we have here? Which functions would you call?
    easy irritations due to uncomfortableness are Si
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Lol, a guy just commented on my post, saying I 'should start with f-ing stopping getting lost in being oh-so-meta'. He's definitely a Te-dom and in the past he would always put me down for my Ji approach to things.
    I actually like how he said I was being meta --I really was.
    @ooo, the part where I commented on the post (point 3.), did feel like Fi, kinda, because I normally never voice my opinions in fear of being judged and 'corrected'. So yeah, that fear could've been a strain I put on my Fi.
    At this again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    easy irritations due to uncomfortableness are Si
    This had nothing to do with being uncomfortable of the sensing kind. It was all very mental, not physical.
    At this again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    This had nothing to do with being uncomfortable of the sensing kind. It was all very mental, not physical.
    still Si
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    still Si
    I don't see it.
    At this again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I don't see it.
    Meatball will explain it to you here "He's also very irritable and cranky pants and can piss people off, but in a sense i'm the right type of person to smooth out his relations for him. Its really annoying, its like i'm dreaming of this ISTp being perfect for me while simultaneously knowing i'm probably deluding myself."

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ENFp-and-ISTp)
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Thanks for the link. In your view, am I the ISTp or the ENFp in this scenario?
    Last edited by ToTheMoon; 04-21-2019 at 10:57 PM. Reason: Typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Thanks for the link. In your view, am I the ISTp or the ENTp in this scenario?

    Si description:
    "Feelings of internal discomfort can arise from a tense psychological atmosphere, working too hard and sapping the body's resources, being pressured by other people or by numerous "things to do," and from unsaturated or overstated physical needs."

    I would add other irritants like people being dumb.

    My SLI friends blow up inappropriately and unceremoniously because of how easily they are irritated.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Isn't that a bit too broad, though? Wouldn't Ti/Te get irritated by dumb people and Fi/Fe by tense psychological situations? Going with this example, Si seems to govern all sources of irritations . I get that Si people are cranky but let's have some boundaries between which function governs which sources.

    Btw., I don't blow up. Last time I blew up was about 10 years ago. Also my blow ups aren't very explosive. I become frozen instead and keep very calm and clear head.
    At this again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Isn't that a bit too broad, though? Wouldn't Ti/Te get irritated by dumb people and Fi/Fe by tense psychological situations? Going with this example, Si seems to govern all sources of irritations . I get that Si people are cranky but let's have some boundaries between which function governs which sources.

    Btw., I don't blow up. Last time I blew up was about 10 years ago. Also my blow ups aren't very explosive. I become frozen instead and keep very calm and clear head.
    you're just nitpicking on details
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    you're just nitpicking on details
    Interesting. I actually see that as the most fundamental definitions that we need to specifically understand in order to be able to get a grasp on the whole theory and then to apply it correctly and expand its understanding and then, perhaps, to extrapolate on the theory itself for our own amusement and curiosity. Without these clearly defined and agreed upon principles, we are just wading in muddy waters and we can't even speak a common language. At least that's the way I see it.
    At this again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Interesting. I actually see that as the most fundamental definitions that we need to specifically understand in order to be able to get a grasp on the whole theory and then to apply it correctly and expand its understanding and then, perhaps, to extrapolate on the theory itself for our own amusement and curiosity. Without these clearly defined and agreed upon principles, we are just wading in muddy waters and we can't even speak a common language. At least that's the way I see it.
    then why don't you reread the functional elements

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-by-Functions
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    then why don't you reread the functional elements

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-by-Functions
    I've read that link many times. I'm reading and broadening my knowledge on functions and elements all the time. Literally have Jung's 'Psychological Types' in my lap as we speak. I strive for clarity of definitions so that I can integrate them into myself and be able to see the correct things as they appear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Lol, a guy just commented on my post, saying I 'should start with f-ing stopping getting lost in being oh-so-meta'. He's definitely a Te-dom and in the past he would always put me down for my Ji approach to things.
    I actually like how he said I was being meta --I really was.
    @ooo, the part where I commented on the post (point 3.), did feel like Fi, kinda, because I normally never voice my opinions in fear of being judged and 'corrected'. So yeah, that fear could've been a strain I put on my Fi.
    I didn't mean the voicing of your dissent was Fi (although there can be something to it), rather that you've noticed the relationships of those 2 opinions, how the emotional tone of each party was interacting with the event itself, and I think that's Fi, ethics of relationships

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I didn't mean the voicing of your dissent was Fi (although there can be something to it), rather that you've noticed the relationships of those 2 opinions, how the emotional tone of each party was interacting with the event itself, and I think that's Fi, ethics of relationships
    Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification. I admit that socionics take on introverted elements as inter rather than intra confuses me, so that's why I didn't get your point at first. I think I prefer the classic approach, but that's beside the point here. When using socionics, your interpretation sounds sensible.
    At this again.
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    Thanks my dear : ) btw, here's a good link about the functions (@Olimpia), explained in their traditional socionics content. Obviously what I said was my interpretation of your situation, as you say, it's fun to interpret reality according to this socionics model... I don't think there's ultimately just one interpretation, and one that's more correct... what do you picture when I say the thing I do? are we talking about the same things?... we'll never know

    subjective situation of fields (internal static fields)

    abstract processes of fields (internal dynamic fields)

    fields: relationships between objects

    Both elements can be seen in your case, but because you've assessed your judgement (static) to the situation, I think this is more a case of Fi.

    Fe and Ne are present too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    Thanks my dear : ) btw, here's a good link about the functions (@Olimpia), explained in their traditional socionics content. Obviously what I said was my interpretation of your situation, as you say, it's fun to interpret reality according to this socionics model... I don't think there's ultimately just one interpretation, and one that's more correct... what do you picture when I say the thing I do? are we talking about the same things?... we'll never know

    subjective situation of fields (internal static fields)

    abstract processes of fields (internal dynamic fields)

    fields: relationships between objects

    Both elements can be seen in your case, but because you've assessed your judgement (static) to the situation, I think this is more a case of Fi.

    Fe and Ne are present too.
    Thanks for all that! It made me think about the way I personally prefer to see the world and how I learn best. I've just read Jung's 'Psychological Types' and as vague as Jung is as a writer, he still manages to sketch pretty clear boundaries between different functions. Or, at least, he does that in a way that speaks to me quite esily: I see where the difference between Fi and Fe is in his writings. Seeing those boundaries is very important to me. I don't do well in unstructured theory (guess I never finished my MA in cultural anthropology because of that). Reading the descriptions you linked me to made me realize that socionics seems to be way more intuitive/feeling oriented than I can take. I see some people use it with great ease and that's great, it means the system works. It's just not suitable for me. The more I dig into socionics, the more I feel confused and my mind is getting more and more clouded with all the fluidity of knowledge. All I see is nuances and different shades of gray and I can't even tell which parts apply to me and in what measure. So, in fact, I think I should wrap this up here and move on to Jung and some more modern approaches like perhaps Beebe. I'll probably leave here for some time to think in private.

    One last thing. Something you said struck me on a personal level and made me rethink some of my choices in life. You said 'I don't think there's ultimately just one interpretation, and one that's more correct...' See, before I went to study anthropology, I never considered what you said to be even remotely possible. I don't think it would ever occur to me that there can be more than one correct interpretation of events. I could always see that there are many interpretations and many possibilities BUT one had to be true, and in face of that, others would have to be false. My studies showed me how terribly narrow-minded that view of the world is and I think I have suffered low self esteem ever since, and tried to circumvent my personal style of thinking because it was proved to me as faulty and shallow. I don't even know what that means, really . Just leaving it here for my future reference, if I come back to re-read this thread in the future.
    At this again.
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    Well, Moony, I get what you're saying. I used to aim at absolute certainty too, but the more I learn, the less I am convinced that's the case, for real. A good example, and connected to the systems of psychological typing, is astrology. We're accustomed to use the western system of reference for astrology, I am a Sagittarius, I'm pretty sure of that, it's objectively true... according to the system I use, which is a cultural set of rules meant to make sense of the world under our eyes. But I'd become a Scorpio in Vedic astrology, for as valid reasons, cultural and scientific, again, as the ones that make me say that I'm a Sagi. They're pretty different signs, as you know, yet I can see myself in both signs, although my cultural preferences and conception of the world make me stick to what I recognize better, that is, my western view of the world, a more sensual, less spiritual view, compared to Vedic.

    In the end, socionics is just a big brain masturbation. : D I've given up trying to relate to it as if it was holding the key to my life, because none got that key but me. Not Jung, not Beebee, not someone who's figured everything out, knows how the world truly turns.. we all are pretty uncategorizable, and even if it would be great to think there's an easy way out of our problems, there's not, or, at least, that's definitely not grabbed by a scheme that depicts our 8 cognitive functions.

    I've been out of this forum for some months, socionics doesn't rule my relationships with people (I think that's one of its shadiest aspects), and now that I'm back, and try to make sense of what the others are trying to say, figure out how they'd fit into this silly theory that's supposed to make us find the true love of our lives, best job, best self expressions and everything else... well, I see that even the supposedly experts have no goddamn idea of what they're saying.

    The link to the functions I gave you yesterday, which is the very core of socionics, made me realize that most people around here are willing to twist every single piece of the theory, just to fit better inside the system. Just to feel ok about themselves... but, can I blame that?, isn't that ultimately what a system of self betterment should do?, to make us feel ok in our own skin...

    Reading that link, you'll see a cute dichotomy: static and dynamic. Now, all dynamic extroverts are -j, while all introverts dynamic are -p. I never realized it well before.. but it's the same that goes on in MBTI, which gets all of our critiques, ok, but it's just the same, although inverted: in MBTI, introverts with a leading rational function are P, as you know, etc etc.
    Static and dynamic are somewhat synonims of MBTI -P and -J. Our supposed socionics dual will be the contrary of us, dynamics go with statics and statics with dynamic, which is just like saying: P and J attract each others.

    Ultimately, I think there are 8 core types in the system, all the rest just stems out of our need to fit into what we think is the cutest quadra, elements, etc, that are made of people we think fit into that too, and we like them better or worse or...

    peace.
    Last edited by ooo; 04-24-2019 at 12:30 AM.

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    This is a very sound and sober perspective, @ooo, and one I really needed to hear today. Thanks. And cheers for that attitude.
    At this again.
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    I have watched your videos again after interacting with two IEEs, two IEIs and one EII. I think that you are not IEI. I think you are IEE. Just to note that you energy is more subdued than IEEs that I have known. However, I know that those IEEs can act calm/balanced (compared to themselves) on certain occasions and being recorded for VI probably would be one of those occasions. Which thoughts are preventing you from committing to a type at the moment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    Well, Moony, I get what you're saying. I used to aim at absolute certainty too, but the more I learn, the less I am convinced that's the case, for real. A good example, and connected to the systems of psychological typing, is astrology. We're accustomed to use the western system of reference for astrology, I am a Sagittarius, I'm pretty sure of that, it's objectively true... according to the system I use, which is a cultural set of rules meant to make sense of the world under our eyes. But I'd become a Scorpio in Vedic astrology, for as valid reasons, cultural and scientific, again, as the ones that make me say that I'm a Sagi. They're pretty different signs, as you know, yet I can see myself in both signs, although my cultural preferences and conception of the world make me stick to what I recognize better, that is, my western view of the world, a more sensual, less spiritual view, compared to Vedic.

    In the end, socionics is just a big brain masturbation. : D I've given up trying to relate to it as if it was holding the key to my life, because none got that key but me. Not Jung, not Beebee, not someone who's figured everything out, knows how the world truly turns.. we all are pretty uncategorizable, and even if it would be great to think there's an easy way out of our problems, there's not, or, at least, that's definitely not grabbed by a scheme that depicts our 8 cognitive functions.

    I've been out of this forum for some months, socionics doesn't rule my relationships with people (I think that's one of its shadiest aspects), and now that I'm back, and try to make sense of what the others are trying to say, figure out how they'd fit into this silly theory that's supposed to make us find the true love of our lives, best job, best self expressions and everything else... well, I see that even the supposedly experts have no goddamn idea of what they're saying.

    The link to the functions I gave you yesterday, which is the very core of socionics, made me realize that most people around here are willing to twist every single piece of the theory, just to fit better inside the system. Just to feel ok about themselves... but, can I blame that?, isn't that ultimately what a system of self betterment should do?, to make us feel ok in our own skin...

    Reading that link, you'll see a cute dichotomy: static and dynamic. Now, all dynamic extroverts are -j, while all introverts dynamic are -p. I never realized it well before.. but it's the same that goes on in MBTI, which gets all of our critiques, ok, but it's just the same, although inverted: in MBTI, introverts with a leading rational function are P, as you know, etc etc.
    Static and dynamic are somewhat synonims of MBTI -P and -J. Our supposed socionics dual will be the contrary of us, dynamics go with statics and statics with dynamic, which is just like saying: P and J attract each others.

    Ultimately, I think there are 8 core types in the system, all the rest just stems out of our need to fit into what we think is the cutest quadra, elements, etc, that are made of people we think fit into that too, and we like them better or worse or...

    peace.
    I read this link this morning

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...hov_and_Tsypin

    which led me to these links.

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...hov_and_Tsypin

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...hov_and_Tsypin

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...hov_and_Tsypin

    I am not sure if these links are a lot better but I did agree with some major points they make on the dichotomies.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    There are oddly introverted IEE's. You might be one.
    Anyway, I think your answers reflect result type. Not liking to dwell in past similar to your dual. It is easy to mix up yourself with ignoring [I can find exactly opposite preference for Ni (process Ni) as in catastrophising Nostradamus ways and going backwards and forwards while I'm just laughing at it or getting stuck.]
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Thanks for all that! It made me think about the way I personally prefer to see the world and how I learn best. I've just read Jung's 'Psychological Types' and as vague as Jung is as a writer, he still manages to sketch pretty clear boundaries between different functions. Or, at least, he does that in a way that speaks to me quite esily: I see where the difference between Fi and Fe is in his writings. Seeing those boundaries is very important to me. I don't do well in unstructured theory (guess I never finished my MA in cultural anthropology because of that). Reading the descriptions you linked me to made me realize that socionics seems to be way more intuitive/feeling oriented than I can take. I see some people use it with great ease and that's great, it means the system works. It's just not suitable for me. The more I dig into socionics, the more I feel confused and my mind is getting more and more clouded with all the fluidity of knowledge. All I see is nuances and different shades of gray and I can't even tell which parts apply to me and in what measure. So, in fact, I think I should wrap this up here and move on to Jung and some more modern approaches like perhaps Beebe. I'll probably leave here for some time to think in private.

    One last thing. Something you said struck me on a personal level and made me rethink some of my choices in life. You said 'I don't think there's ultimately just one interpretation, and one that's more correct...' See, before I went to study anthropology, I never considered what you said to be even remotely possible. I don't think it would ever occur to me that there can be more than one correct interpretation of events. I could always see that there are many interpretations and many possibilities BUT one had to be true, and in face of that, others would have to be false. My studies showed me how terribly narrow-minded that view of the world is and I think I have suffered low self esteem ever since, and tried to circumvent my personal style of thinking because it was proved to me as faulty and shallow. I don't even know what that means, really . Just leaving it here for my future reference, if I come back to re-read this thread in the future.
    Honestly tho i still think the world has only one truth. Like the only answer to 1+1 is 2, nothing else. Surely u can look at 2 as 1+1, but also 1.5+ 0.5 but its still 2 in the end and thats what matters

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    VI-LII

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    Just wanted to let you guys know that I moved on from socionics to Objective Personality and highly recommend it to anyone who feels that mbti and socionics lack structure and a strong basis in facts. I'd also recommend it to those who feel that personality is dynamic and more dychotomous and weird and complicated than just 'you're type X, now go on and enjoy it'. I always thought there's so much more to personality than that because I have changed very strongly in my life and who I was in the past only slightly resembles who I am now. That change didn't fit and wasn't described well by either mbti or socionics but it aligns perfectly with what they are saying in Objective Personality. I don't know what type I am, currently I think Fi or Ti lead with Ne/Si axis is likely but that's just speculation based on agitated thinking brought on by discovering OP . I will get back here and let you know when I have settled on a type and had it well thought through and possibly confirmed.

    Anyways, as always, thank you all for taking your time to look at my thread and comment! I really appreciate your input and it is endlessly interesting to read what others see in me. It's truly an invaluable reference point. If anyone was interested to know more about OP, feel free to message me and I'll be happy to share what I learned.

    Cheers.
    At this again.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

  39. #239
    Tommy's Avatar
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    I totally agree in mbti lacking structure, however socionics does have a full theory but I've seen ppl rarely investigate it in deep (instead they come here to ask everybody about appreciations and opinions) which obviously causes them to get frustrated. Objective personality seems to me another attempt of mixing up mbti and socionics with other personality systems. It would be interesting to know which type do they think you are or which functions do they say you use if you agree on sharing about it.
    Thank you and good luck.

  40. #240
    ToTheMoon's Avatar
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    I agree. I guess I need even more clarity and simplification. Socionics is very multi-faceted and nuanced and in the end it turned out to be too vague for my. It's just a preference though! I'm certainly not shitting on socionics since I've learned a lot from it. It's just that when I know I've found something that fits me perfectly, I want to pursue it.
    Thanks!
    At this again.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

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