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Thread: What demonstrative element is mine?

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    Default What demonstrative element is mine?

    In Model A, the demonstrative element is used for mocking. It says that in sociotype.info if you care to double-check my claim. So I could get help in verifying my sociotype by observing how I mock.

    I tend to prefer mocking by belittling the significance of something. For instance, there was a serious discussion on math.stackexchange about this quote.

    "If mathematics does not teach us how to think correctly, it at least teaches us how easy it is to think incorrectly." ~ Harald Bohr
    Because I do not appreciate these kinds of soft, trifling discussions my immediate decision was to mock it by turning it into a Castlevania quote.

    UNDERGRADUATE: Die, layman! You don't belong in academia!
    HARALD BOHR: It was not by my hand that I'm once again given tenure. I was called here by postdocs who wish to pay me tribute.
    UNDERGRADUATE: "Tribute"?! You steal men's theses, and make them your slaves!
    HARALD BOHR: Perhaps the same could be said of all academics.
    UNDERGRADUATE: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mathematics ill needs a researcher such as you!
    HARALD BOHR: What is mathematics? [flings his calculator aside] A miserable little pile of demonstrations on how easy it is to make an incorrect proof! But enough talk! Have at you!

    What information element is this?

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    Haikus thehotelambush's Avatar
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    The demonstrative function isn't defined by mocking in my understanding. If you have a negative attitude towards something it could suggest a subdued function, but we often take the demonstrative function seriously as a goal.

    Your dramatic story and dislike of "soft, trifling" discussions could suggest Beta, but usually I wouldn't type someone based on a single observation.

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    this got Creative : )

    the 2 functions are connected, it looks kind of Ne/Ni, you created a possible alternative scenario (Ne), while actually making fun of the situation under your eyes for the (I imagine) lack of perceived meaning in it (Ni).

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    Somehow, I just can fix and solve technical stuff. I have noticed that I even do it to make things better for SEI before the could realize it's potential existence.
    Measuring you right now

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    ^ Gotta be grateful for that ILE Te, helping make things 10x easier

    The more I think about it, the more I realize how important Fi really is for me. I do value it...but not in the same way as ESIs and EIIs seem to. It's hard to explain...like I treat it as taken-for-granted. It's a pervasive underlying backdrop to my life, but I don't see it as the be-all-end-all to life's purpose (like my lead and suggestive functions). ESIs and EIIs treat their individual system of ethics as the main focus in life. Sometimes I get irritated by how 'absolutist' these types can get when it comes to ethics, like it's a black and white matter and they know better than others what's right. (I'm sure my Si can be annoying to Si-demonstratives too, that's just how it is).

    So yeah, I think this is a better picture of the demonstrative function. You need it, you use it all the time, but you don't emphasize it unnecessarily, like the other types who value it. It's sort of like the...'meat and potatoes' of life, while your creative function is more like the dessert. You don't enjoy your meat and potatoes as much as you enjoy your dessert, but ultimately it does a lot to support you. Hope that makes some sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    ^ Gotta be grateful for that ILE Te, helping make things 10x easier

    The more I think about it, the more I realize how important Fi really is for me. I do value it...but not in the same way as ESIs and EIIs seem to. It's hard to explain...like I treat it as taken-for-granted. It's a pervasive underlying backdrop to my life, but I don't see it as the be-all-end-all to life's purpose (like my lead and suggestive functions). ESIs and EIIs treat their individual system of ethics as the main focus in life. Sometimes I get irritated by how 'absolutist' these types can get when it comes to ethics, like it's a black and white matter and they know better than others what's right. (I'm sure my Si can be annoying to Si-demonstratives too, that's just how it is).

    So yeah, I think this is a better picture of the demonstrative function. You need it, you use it all the time, but you don't emphasize it unnecessarily, like the other types who value it. It's sort of like the...'meat and potatoes' of life, while your creative function is more like the dessert. You don't enjoy your meat and potatoes as much as you enjoy your dessert, but ultimately it does a lot to support you. Hope that makes some sense
    pretty much
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    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Somehow, I just can fix and solve technical stuff.
    Me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    I have noticed that I even do it to make things better for SEI before the could realize it's potential existence.
    Yeah, I experienced that also. I can show other people how to do stuff in situation when they don't know how to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    It's sort of like the...'meat and potatoes' of life, while your creative function is more like the dessert. You don't enjoy your meat and potatoes as much as you enjoy your dessert, but ultimately it does a lot to support you.
    Mhm, absolutely. Very semantically Si framing as well. As a fellow Fi Demonstrative I certainly agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    ^ Gotta be grateful for that ILE Te, helping make things 10x easier

    The more I think about it, the more I realize how important Fi really is for me. I do value it...but not in the same way as ESIs and EIIs seem to. It's hard to explain...like I treat it as taken-for-granted. It's a pervasive underlying backdrop to my life, but I don't see it as the be-all-end-all to life's purpose (like my lead and suggestive functions). ESIs and EIIs treat their individual system of ethics as the main focus in life. Sometimes I get irritated by how 'absolutist' these types can get when it comes to ethics, like it's a black and white matter and they know better than others what's right. (I'm sure my Si can be annoying to Si-demonstratives too, that's just how it is).

    So yeah, I think this is a better picture of the demonstrative function. You need it, you use it all the time, but you don't emphasize it unnecessarily, like the other types who value it. It's sort of like the...'meat and potatoes' of life, while your creative function is more like the dessert. You don't enjoy your meat and potatoes as much as you enjoy your dessert, but ultimately it does a lot to support you. Hope that makes some sense
    "A pervasive underlying backdrop" is a great way to put it. The demonstrative function is a kind of "lowest energy state" along with the leading function, we do them automatically when we're not trying to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    The demonstrative function isn't defined by mocking in my understanding. If you have a negative attitude towards something it could suggest a subdued function, but we often take the demonstrative function seriously as a goal.

    This is what wikisocion says about the demonstrative.


    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Demonstrative_function#Demonstrati ve_function
    A person uses this element mainly as a kind of game, or to ridicule those who he thinks take it too seriously. This function is often intentionally used against its conventional usage simply to prove a point in favor of person's creative function. It is associated with the protective effect for vulnerable (PoLR) function of one's dual type. However, demonstrative function is also used quite often in private, to produce information of its element to support their creative function when focusing on making contact with the external world.

    So the demonstrative is used for two purposes:


    1. Mocking. ("A person uses this element mainly as a kind of game, or to ridicule those who he thinks take it too seriously.")
    2. Supporting the creative function, whatever that means. ("However, demonstrative function is also used quite often in private, to produce information of its element to support their creative function when focusing on making contact with the external world.")


    I don't know what the author is saying in #2, but I do know what he is saying in #1. So the demonstrative is primarily used for mocking, with a secondary usage that is incomprehensible because it hasn't been specified clearly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    So yeah, I think this is a better picture of the demonstrative function. You need it, you use it all the time, but you don't emphasize it unnecessarily, like the other types who value it. It's sort of like the...'meat and potatoes' of life, while your creative function is more like the dessert. You don't enjoy your meat and potatoes as much as you enjoy your dessert, but ultimately it does a lot to support you. Hope that makes some sense
    Please don't use metaphors. Metaphors--unless you're a master in your field and a literary genius--obfuscate rather than clarify. Please use case-based reasoning by providing examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanPrinciple View Post

    So the demonstrative is used for two purposes:


    1. Mocking.
    2. Supporting the creative function, whatever that means.

    I don't know what the author is saying in #2
    this

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    this got Creative : )

    the 2 functions are connected, it looks kind of Ne/Ni, you created a possible alternative scenario (Ne), while actually making fun of the situation under your eyes for the (I imagine) lack of perceived meaning in it (Ni).

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    @ooo I'm sorry but I still don't exactly understand what Gulenko et al. mean when he says "when the creative function is making contact with the external world, the demonstrative produces information to support it." My single experience in my OP does help clarify ("when Ne was used to make a Castlevania meme, Ni was used to support it by pointing out the perceived lack of meaning") but it does not define to my satisfaction.

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    I take regular human bonds seriously (i.e. if you show someone certain types of affection, you can't just go and pretend you guys have zero relationship, I mean, I've seen Fi-PoLRs do things like spend time with/do nice things for someone and then admit that they don't even know if they especially like them, that's really crazy, you should figure out what you feel before sending misleading signals.) But at the same time, I don't care at all about verbalizing my preferences or tellings others they were somehow a bad person.

    I think I have a strong sense of what relationships could be, and I've acted prematurely close to some ppl and accidentally ignored others due to seeing the relationship fizzle out b/f it happens (?) I'm making it sound too-mystical here, it's probably just a normal thing of acting according to how close you could/would want to get to someone. And maybe this is why I do so poorly w/ my duals - I'm too Fi(??) I think they would want someone like an ESE, just a quieter ESE.

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    Really? I don't mock Ni within me. I would say that I'm mostly in the world of human relationships. Even going to the store today I watched two friend interacting and planning their meal. i am more confident than ever in approaching people and i stopped to type them. The extrovert knew his type and was quick to answer for his friend. he was LSE and the introvert was SLI. We had a chat and i can't stop myself from reflecting at the friendship moments that they shared that made it ideal. They were like two brothers rather than friends. They had certain ideal about their relationship...how they decided on the pasta to cook, how balanced they were one led the other followed, but not without the introvert's input. it was nostalgic of what an idealistic Fi prefers to see in human relationships...depth, peace, love, friendship. so i ask myself where's the Ni in my thoughts. is it in my reflection after my observation? or, is it me beaming from the joy of seeing such love. Ni must reaffirm the depth of my ideals in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I take regular human bonds seriously (i.e. if you show someone certain types of affection, you can't just go and pretend you guys have zero relationship, I mean, I've seen Fi-PoLRs do things like spend time with/do nice things for someone and then admit that they don't even know if they especially like them, that's really crazy, you should figure out what you feel before sending misleading signals.) But at the same time, I don't care at all about verbalizing my preferences or tellings others they were somehow a bad person.

    I think I have a strong sense of what relationships could be, and I've acted prematurely close to some ppl and accidentally ignored others due to seeing the relationship fizzle out b/f it happens (?) I'm making it sound too-mystical here, it's probably just a normal thing of acting according to how close you could/would want to get to someone. And maybe this is why I do so poorly w/ my duals - I'm too Fi(??) I think they would want someone like an ESE, just a quieter ESE.
    i must take my perception all too seriously too then. by the way you're demonstrating Fi now...right? ethics - decide what it is (it being your feelings towards someone) before you act.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 01-05-2019 at 11:00 PM.
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I take regular human bonds seriously (i.e. if you show someone certain types of affection, you can't just go and pretend you guys have zero relationship, I mean, I've seen Fi-PoLRs do things like spend time with/do nice things for someone and then admit that they don't even know if they especially like them, that's really crazy, you should figure out what you feel before sending misleading signals.) But at the same time, I don't care at all about verbalizing my preferences or tellings others they were somehow a bad person.

    I think I have a strong sense of what relationships could be, and I've acted prematurely close to some ppl and accidentally ignored others due to seeing the relationship fizzle out b/f it happens (?) I'm making it sound too-mystical here, it's probably just a normal thing of acting according to how close you could/would want to get to someone. And maybe this is why I do so poorly w/ my duals - I'm too Fi(??) I think they would want someone like an ESE, just a quieter ESE.
    I feel the same way about Fi. And for what it's worth, I'm not confident about what to do to avoid bothering ILE's Fi, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanPrinciple View Post
    @ooo I'm sorry but I still don't exactly understand what Gulenko et al. mean when he says "when the creative function is making contact with the external world, the demonstrative produces information to support it." My single experience in my OP does help clarify ("when Ne was used to make a Castlevania meme, Ni was used to support it by pointing out the perceived lack of meaning") but it does not define to my satisfaction.
    It's very simple, PPP, the extroverted and introverted functions of the same element are pretty much always working in unison. That's why when you're a given subtype, all the elements in the same column of your subtype function are boosted too. In other words, it's about the dimensionality of the functions.

    To be more clear, when you use Ne, you use Ni too, and when you use Ni, you use Ne too. No matter where they're located in Model A; but in the case of the Creative and Demonstrative, they're way more showing than the other functions, because, as Gulenko says, we use our Creative to make a contact with the world, and because, despite "mocking", the Demonstrative is, as the name says, demonstrative! So, it will show.

    Please note how the functions are very smartly called with the function they purport. It makes things all banal then.

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    Doing things just because you are not sure of whether you like relations in it or not? Most of the time curiosity is my inner driving force whether it has people or not. Thus could be Te mocking since it does appreciate Te/Fi aspects fully. The easiest way to observe this is that for example that I don't really thrive in routine... I really like novel aspects in things including solving problems or discovering something new in the process. The ethical aspects in handling those things, well it might have some one sided things in it.
    Measuring you right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanPrinciple View Post
    This is what wikisocion says about the demonstrative.





    So the demonstrative is used for two purposes:


    1. Mocking. ("A person uses this element mainly as a kind of game, or to ridicule those who he thinks take it too seriously.")
    2. Supporting the creative function, whatever that means. ("However, demonstrative function is also used quite often in private, to produce information of its element to support their creative function when focusing on making contact with the external world.")
    I know what Wikisocion says. But do you even know who wrote it?

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    I personally prefer the Model G understanding of the (Model A) Demonstrative function, which is called the Creative function in Model G.

    The Program function and the Creative function (Demonstrative function in standard Model A) come together to create the Social Mission of each type:

    Program: Decision making and resource/energy allocation; team captain. Drives the mission through encouragement
    Creative (Demonstrative in standard Model A): It implements the mission, taking into account local conditions (most fully takes them into account). It has an energy supply from the program. The main tool for solving complex non-standard problems

    Social Missions of the types:

    Seeker: IP Innovative Action
    -Find bold ideas or inventions and make them work
    Enthusiast: EF Emotional Pressure
    -Involve people in a new business, overcoming their indifference
    Mediator: SR Comfortable Relationship
    -Create an environment in which people interact comfortably
    Analyst: LT Time Structure
    -Analyze events and act in accordance with the logic of the development of the system
    Mentor: EI Emotional Ideas
    -To create motivation for the discovery of abilities, to risk for the sake of an idea
    Marshal: FP Power Actions
    -Resolutely act in situations of tough competition
    Inspector: LS Logic of Comfort
    -Create order that provides comfort and stability
    Lyricist: TR Relationship Time
    -To anticipate the development of relations and timely adjust them
    Politician: FE Power Emotions
    -Reach a mutually beneficial agreement between the warring parties
    Entrepreneur: PI Profitable Innovations
    -Feel free to take risks in a business that promises great profits.
    Critic: TL System Forecast
    -Predict the course of events and take steps to balance the system
    Guardian: RS Ethics of Comfort
    -Ensure the physical and psychological well-being of the group
    Administrator: PF Business Force
    -Move around the area and intervene where there is a hitch
    Adviser: IE Interesting Communication
    -Meet interesting people and motivate talents
    Humanist: RT Ethics of Time
    -Kindness and patience to achieve gradual changes for the better
    Master: SL Comfortable Order

    -Control tools and machinery in comfort

    I think that the versions of Model A which say that the Demonstrative function (in Model A) is only used for mocking or support of the Creative function are out of step with the behavior of the types in practice. This function, whatever you call it, is used frequently and with great intrinsic importance to every type. I would also agree that it is used pretty automatically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    ...Most of the time curiosity is my inner driving force...
    Mine too, at least in my spare time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    I really like novel aspects in things including solving problems or discovering something new in the process.
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I know what Wikisocion says. But do you even know who wrote it?
    Did you write it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I know what Wikisocion says. But do you even know who wrote it?
    I checked the history page. The section on the demonstrative was written by "Siuntal" who copied it from sociotype.info. I also see that you edited the page too. Please do not take my remark as insinuating that you are ignorant of the contents of the wiki, because that was not my intention.... <kowtow>

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanPrinciple View Post
    Please don't use metaphors. Metaphors--unless you're a master in your field and a literary genius--obfuscate rather than clarify. Please use case-based reasoning by providing examples.
    Who’s to say she isn’t one?

    Sorry but not understanding a simple metaphor (with a clear explanation attached) like this one makes you look like far from a master or literary genius lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    ^ Gotta be grateful for that ILE Te, helping make things 10x easier

    The more I think about it, the more I realize how important Fi really is for me. I do value it...but not in the same way as ESIs and EIIs seem to. It's hard to explain...like I treat it as taken-for-granted. It's a pervasive underlying backdrop to my life, but I don't see it as the be-all-end-all to life's purpose (like my lead and suggestive functions). ESIs and EIIs treat their individual system of ethics as the main focus in life. Sometimes I get irritated by how 'absolutist' these types can get when it comes to ethics, like it's a black and white matter and they know better than others what's right. (I'm sure my Si can be annoying to Si-demonstratives too, that's just how it is).

    So yeah, I think this is a better picture of the demonstrative function. You need it, you use it all the time, but you don't emphasize it unnecessarily, like the other types who value it. It's sort of like the...'meat and potatoes' of life, while your creative function is more like the dessert. You don't enjoy your meat and potatoes as much as you enjoy your dessert, but ultimately it does a lot to support you. Hope that makes some sense
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    It's very simple, PPP, the extroverted and introverted functions of the same element are pretty much always working in unison. That's why when you're a given subtype, all the elements in the same column of your subtype function are boosted too. In other words, it's about the dimensionality of the functions.

    To be more clear, when you use Ne, you use Ni too, and when you use Ni, you use Ne too. No matter where they're located in Model A; but in the case of the Creative and Demonstrative, they're way more showing than the other functions, because, as Gulenko says, we use our Creative to make a contact with the world, and because, despite "mocking", the Demonstrative is, as the name says, demonstrative! So, it will show.

    Please note how the functions are very smartly called with the function they purport. It makes things all banal then.
    i don’t see how that’s possible. It doesn’t work that way with my. I feel like Ni is largely subconscious for me
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    So what to think about demonstrative. It is usually about applying deciphered scheme to automatic action. I find that it does not take in instructions easily.

    For example just listen to Carl Jung's interview when he explains how he gets totally dumbfounded by external supply of Ni. This is very common among LII's.

    I have noticed some EII who wants to carry on with planned Te program but fails to think ahead future implications of executive action on certain individual's state.
    Measuring you right now

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    I feel it's superficialto consider the Demonstrative as a "mockery" function, though I get why it's usually explained as such, as it's the hardest to understand. But people also mock other functions, especially the Vulnerable.
    If you really want to understand it, you should think of it as something that's always working on the background. It may be private, but it's always there. Now, as to what it does while you don't bring it to the foreground, it receives information. You should compare it to the other 7 functions:
    Like the Leading, it's very strong and you know what you want. However, it's on the Id block and you will see it as trivial.
    Like the Creative, it's a tool you can use and doesn't set goals, but it's more difficult to control as it's always appearing somewhere.
    Like the Role, you'll use it regardless of whether you like it, but not bc of external pressure, but simply being hard to shut down.
    Like the Vulnerable, you dislike it, but it's a dislike of something you understand well.
    Like the Suggestive, it's always doing something in the background, but instead of requesting something, it creates plenty of knowledge.
    Like the Mobilizing, it can pop up unexpectedly, but your nuance makes it useful knowledge you could be using.
    Like the Ignoring, it's what you can do and choose not to, but you don't really shut it down and it will always be taking in more information.
    To sum up, the Demonstrative function is a pool of abilities that gets out at times and people wonder why you don't use it more often. That may lead you to mock its very principle, as you really do prefer your Creative, which is much more local and won't interfere with your Leading. I believe that's how you might identify it best: that which you dislike because it's that threat to the Leading you'll never silence. While you accept you'll have to use your Role, are blind to the Vulnerable and simply silence the Ignoring, your Demonstrative is always acting behind the scenes, not with an independent programme, but simply as a tool that gets out of hand.
    As for wahat you mock, it's probably the Vulnerable, everybody loves doing that. That's actually related to the idea of the Mobilizing being a Hidden Agenda. You could say the same about the Demonstrative, but that depends on how you interpret the word agenda. The Mobilizing doesn't have its own agenda, nor you have sinister reasons for using it. It's just that you have a childish idea of your Super Id block. While the Suggestive is more cautious, you use the Mobilizing assertively.So, it looks out of place and seems like you have a hidden agenda when you're just enjoying its use. This inevitably goes against the Vulnerable, of which you also have a caricature of an idea and will enjoy doing anything which upsets its essence. You may see it in Milo Yiannopoulos (EIE) being rude to others just for the lulz, or Emperor Otto's (LSI) goal for an idea of the Empire which ignored all the other ways things could turn out. Basically, you like it but fail at it precisely bc you ignore its opposite, as you are hypnotized by it while not seeing how you might do it better, which contrasts with how your ability with the Ignoring means you'll be far more skillful with the Leading, as they are two sides of the same coin. This is another interpretation of the Hidden Agenda as your rejection of the Vulnerable means you won't do what you want to properly. However, you could also say the Demonstrative is another Hidden Agenda, as it also pops out, but instead of it looking out of place for others, it looks out of place in your scheme of goals, and you view with suspicion anything related to it as it's a threat to your Leading. Your vast capabilities can also be this Hidden Agenda, as you literally keep this knowledge to yourself, so your plan to use your Leading ends up meaning you work towards concealing what you coud do here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post


    .

    i don’t see how that’s possible. It doesn’t work that way with my. I feel like Ni is largely subconscious for me
    Was there any reason you quoted my post? *confused*

    But yeah, your last point is something I wonder about a lot, since the demonstrative is described as unconscious. I'm not sure how accurate that is, for me at least. I use mine consciously all the time. Maybe 'unconscious' refers to when we use it without realizing - just as an automatic thing? Jung said that Ni is the most unconscious cognitive function, already. So since your demonstrative is Ni, maybe yours is particularly subconscious?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    Was there any reason you quoted my post? *confused*

    But yeah, your last point is something I wonder about a lot, since the demonstrative is described as unconscious. I'm not sure how accurate that is, for me at least. I use mine consciously all the time. Maybe 'unconscious' refers to when we use it without realizing - just as an automatic thing? Jung said that Ni is the most unconscious cognitive function, already. So since your demonstrative is Ni, maybe yours is particularly subconscious?
    @Beautiful sky
    The best description of Ni I read is "when you take away all other functions, Ni is what's left". Sure, it sounds dumb because you can technicaly say this of all functions, though Ni is so abstract and personal that it's the best way to put it imo.
    Explaining any other function with this statement would be dumb... anyhoo.
    Ni starts a blank canvas that is painted of life experiences and paterns, possible outcomes arise, "if"s... so it comes up different for each individual, it works only in certain settings. A life changing event ("life changing" can vary greatly among individuals) can mess it up because all is left to experience again. Ni is so tangible because it is all you have lived, and so abstract for the same reason... Words serve no purpose at this point, it can't be told, only experienced.
    It's not because explaining is impossible that it means a lack of comprehension, somethings simply cannot be told.
    "Making the unconscious conscious" is easier, or more visible, in some case than others.
    Last edited by phi; 01-06-2019 at 08:37 PM. Reason: Clarity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderland View Post
    @Beautiful sky
    The best description of Ni I read is "when you take away all other functions, Ni is what's left". Sure, it sounds dumb because you can technicaly say this of all functions, though Ni is so abstract and personal that it's the best way to put it imo.
    Explaining any other function with this statement would be dumb... anyhoo.
    This explanation actually makes a lot of sense! It's a subjective understanding of what will happen based on what has already happened. All other IMs are layers of mental processing piled on top of that. I think your description fits perfectly. Sometimes I wonder if Ni is also sort of 'the 6th sense', like, if it's information downloaded through whatever spiritual entity you believe in, to guide you? I wonder what Ni-egos would say about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderland View Post
    @Beautiful sky
    The best description of Ni I read is "when you take away all other functions, Ni is what's left". Sure, it sounds dumb because you can technicaly say this of all functions, though Ni is so abstract and personal that it's the best way to put it imo.
    Explaining any other function with this statement would be dumb... anyhoo.
    Ni starts a blank canvas that is painted of life experiences and paterns, possible outcomes arise, "if"s... so it comes up different for each individual, it works only in certain settings. A life changing event ("life changing" can vary greatly among individuals) can mess it up because all is left to experience again. Ni is so tangible because it is all you have lived, and so abstract for the same reason... Words serve no purpose at this point, it can't be told, only experienced.
    It's not because explaining is impossible that it means a lack of comprehension, somethings simply cannot be told.
    "Making the unconscious conscious" is easier, or more visible, in some case than others.
    This description is the one that didn't raise more questions rather than answer them, at least for me. I think I saw a forum member attempting something similar in a 2007-ish post but I can't remember the thread title right now. I'll get back to this when I find it.
    ??????????????!?!?!?!?!?????!?!?!?!???? E4 so/sx



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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPanPrinciple View Post
    I checked the history page. The section on the demonstrative was written by "Siuntal" who copied it from sociotype.info. I also see that you edited the page too. Please do not take my remark as insinuating that you are ignorant of the contents of the wiki, because that was not my intention.... <kowtow>
    @ashlesha

    Siuntal wrote only a small part, the part about mocking is from the early days of the wiki. Unfortunately the history was lost in a database crash - the writing style appears to be mine, though Rick probably deserves some credit too.

    My point is simply that Wikisocion is not some kind of disembodied "official" source for socionics, it's more like a snapshot of the community understanding circa 2007 (which ignores the progress made since then). So there isn't much to be gained from trying to divinate what the authors were saying.

    However, the first remark about the creative function is alluding to the fact that the two conflict (Ne and Ni, Se and Si, etc) and the creative function is more valued than the demonstrative. The second one is more about how they work together, as being in the same domain. But, it's not really how I would write about it if I were describing it now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    This explanation actually makes a lot of sense! It's a subjective understanding of what will happen based on what has already happened. All other IMs are layers of mental processing piled on top of that. I think your description fits perfectly. Sometimes I wonder if Ni is also sort of 'the 6th sense', like, if it's information downloaded through whatever spiritual entity you believe in, to guide you? I wonder what Ni-egos would say about that.
    First, thank you.

    I have been thinking about this Ni and sixth sense question, and I think that no, but yes, sorta.
    I think of Ni as a sort of synthesis of experiences in the form of paterns, if that makes sense, one may apply a patern being unaware and unable to explain it, though its roots are somewhere still. When those paterned predictions end up true and it's impossible to find an explaination as to why it was "obvious", calling it a sixth sense can fill a void in understanding. I would say they are linked in necessity of making sense, though not ultimately.

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