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Thread: The IP elements: Questions concerning differences in internal focus between Si and Ni

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    Default The IP elements: Questions concerning differences in internal focus between Si and Ni

    So, i've been playing around with the thought of XLI recently. But the divide between how Si and Ni 'thinks' and 'acts' seems sort of nebulous. Theory clearly states that the respective spatial/temporal worldview is an apparent difference, but how do Si and Ni leads actually interpret and work with these worlds that they create? What do they focus on? Where is the line between Ni ''mystical abstractions'' and the ''concrete, sensory'' thought of Si interaction with the world? How do IP types handle their Role function? Does Ni experience time as a concept to ground their relative thinking? (as in, do Ni types zoom out/in in time to understand themselves in the world? I often see the statement that Ni types imagine their own death and leaving of the world/other ruminations about the nature of their 'becoming' to understand whether or not to consider something as important or not). Does Si 'compare' its experiences and wish to reflect on them, or is Si reflection actually the pure feeling of the senses? Ni seems described as metareflection, in a state of observing the movements of the mind of the agent and the ''meaning'' of the cognitive state, whereas Si seems metasensory, or at least broadly sensory, as in experiencing sensory input from a 'top down' perspective. Here i think of the present/past or future existence. Ni wants to see meaning/why, Si wants to feel is/what. Would this mean that Ni is interested in sensory perception for how it affects the self? Whereas Si is interested in sensory perception for the inherent qualities of that perception? I think that the finer differences of the theoretical IP temperament might be less externally apparent exactly because of the recluse nature of these types.

    Sorry for the barrage of questions, just thought it might open some doors for discussion about the 'exact' differences and similarities.
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Si does not "create worlds" - it works with the real world to improve its quality: comfort, health, functioning (with Te), etc.

    Ni can create or explore imaginary worlds, or aspects of the real world that are absent or distant conceptually or literally.

    Ni does seek meaning but Si seeks experiences that are agreeable in some way.

    You can read here for more information:

    https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com...lement-Agendas
    https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com...ment-Semantics

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    By ''creating worlds'' i meant creating a sort of associative structure where sensory input tells the agent how to assess the world. Of course, this is very different from the imaginary process which is described as intuition in Socionics.

    What do you mean by ''agreeable''? In which way? Can abstractions not be agreeable, or does it have to relate to the senses?
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    I wrote this tongue-in-cheek article in 2007 which was before I fully solidified my own ideas on Socionics; however, it does have a ring of truth......

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/nisi.html

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Ni is like having Si with an additional layer, which makes Si operate beneath the surface. Si is there, but diminished, making one's primary focus on the world abstract and imaginary. An interest in the abstract to an extent that it takes siginificant time away from more practical pursuits, indicates more of an N preference. The fact that you are here is more indicative of N than S, imo.

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    See my Si leading thread. I will bump it.
    ~* astralsilky

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGDoomer View Post
    By ''creating worlds'' i meant creating a sort of associative structure where sensory input tells the agent how to assess the world. Of course, this is very different from the imaginary process which is described as intuition in Socionics.

    What do you mean by ''agreeable''? In which way? Can abstractions not be agreeable, or does it have to relate to the senses?
    How about this. Before I answer your questions, you tell me what an "associative structure where sensory input tells the agent how to assess the world" is. And, read the relevant parts of the articles I linked.

    And yes, it has to relate to the senses or what you are *actually experiencing*. Not abstractions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    Ni is like having Si with an additional layer, which makes Si operate beneath the surface.
    This makes no sense. You could say that any IE is like having other IEs that operate beneath the surface, because that is what happens for every type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    How about this. Before I answer your questions, you tell me what an "associative structure where sensory input tells the agent how to assess the world" is. And, read the relevant parts of the articles I linked.

    And yes, it has to relate to the senses or what you are *actually experiencing*. Not abstractions.
    Sensory input regarded in relation to one another - things are experienced in tandem with an association with other experiences of similar (or opposite) nature that color both the particular (in an unhinged way for the IP type, the image appears suddenly) and general view of that experience and the 'semiotics' of the experience, as in, how should i understand this experience, and what does it say about my relationship to the world? This is by associating certain im-or explicitly defined elements of that experience with other experiences, aka comparing. (so, a is like b because a1 in a is reminiscent of b1 in b etc. Therefore i understand a as being closer to b than c, which doesn't share the same relation) I think that i meant that sensory input is made associative by comparing, thus bringing those comparisons to the forefront when experiencing, and this makes it easier to assess the world, since an idea of relation is presumably essential to biological life. This is the same with imaginary processes i think, creating worlds of association through comparison. Why i made this apparent in IP types is because their worlds seem more dependent on themselves as experiencing beings, rather than the input of others (only in regards to Si and Ni i would guess)

    Sorry for possible bad wording, English is not my mother tounge.
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGDoomer View Post
    Sensory input regarded in relation to one another - things are experienced in tandem with an association with other experiences of similar (or opposite) nature that color both the particular (in an unhinged way for the IP type, the image appears suddenly) and general view of that experience and the 'semiotics' of the experience, as in, how should i understand this experience, and what does it say about my relationship to the world? This is by associating certain im-or explicitly defined elements of that experience with other experiences, aka comparing. (so, a is like b because a1 in a is reminiscent of b1 in b etc. Therefore i understand a as being closer to b than c, which doesn't share the same relation) I think that i meant that sensory input is made associative by comparing, thus bringing those comparisons to the forefront when experiencing, and this makes it easier to assess the world, since an idea of relation is presumably essential to biological life. This is the same with imaginary processes i think, creating worlds of association through comparison. Why i made this apparent in IP types is because their worlds seem more dependent on themselves as experiencing beings, rather than the input of others (only in regards to Si and Ni i would guess)

    Sorry for possible bad wording, English is not my mother tounge.
    The fact that what you're talking about sounds extremely vague and abstract means it's probably Ni and/or Ti. Si has 0 to do with semiotics, which is the study of symbols and meaning etc. That is Ni. Si is not about understanding your experience, it's about making it more pleasant or hospitable. Like, oh, it's cold so I need another blanket. If this doesn't make sense to you then you are probably not an Si leading type.

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    As dynamic introverted elements those should flow inwards. The thing you sense for example when you press something or go to freezing weather sends some sort of signal to your nervous system but the process that is in your imagination right now while you are doing this is not Si as it is not sensing. If that makes sense. As your conscious takes it more in it starts to make wider associations to sensory experiences around you, meaning that you do not have to experience them in a spot to know the sensual stimuli.


    And this explanation is completely derived as I tend to have some troubles with it.
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    Reading Jung on Si and Ni and type descriptions on those specific elements and types should help.

    For the rest, role function can be a source of neuroses and it appears during stressful moments. Also it can be experienced by the self as in constant need for improvement/help from others.

    Here's a quick description:
    ROLE FUNCTION
    Perceived as personal weakness; sometimes makes hard attempts to improve; criticism causes irritation; activated when anxious.
    Some personal observations:
    Ni on SLI:
    -SLI would feel the need to ask and rely on someone else advices (trusted source) or forecast about the future and its variables. On the contrary s/he would get stuck between two possibilities or indecision.
    -Not knowing how much actual time some task would get (something that has not been done before).
    -Procrastinating then doing things in last minute.
    -Feeling like they don't have enough time to achieve or do what they need/want to do.
    -Not wanting to waste/spend time in unpleasant/unproductive activities/people (being stingy with time).
    -Problems with deadlines.
    -Ni (time/future) as a source of neuroses.

    Si on IEI:
    -Misinterpretation and lack of understanding of bodily functions and body signals.
    -Exaggeration and excessive focus on body/physical appearance and obsessive hold of an ideal (that can even be unattainable or surreal).
    -Problems with physical/psychological self perception like constant dissatisfaction of own physical appearance.
    -Addictions or problems with balanced routines.
    -Feeling like their body interpose between them and something they want to achieve or their purpose in life.
    -Criticism of others natural physical appearance that goes off the IEI aesthetic ideal.
    -Alarmist self diagnoses.
    -Si (pleasure/sensations/body/health) as source of neuroses.

    There are plenty of detailed descriptions of elements and types in the web also. I'm lazy to quote them.
    Last edited by Ragdoll Lynx; 01-03-2019 at 09:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Si does not "create worlds" - it works with the real world to improve its quality: comfort, health, functioning (with Te), etc.

    Ni can create or explore imaginary worlds, or aspects of the real world that are absent or distant conceptually or literally.

    Ni does seek meaning but Si seeks experiences that are agreeable in some way.

    You can read here for more information:

    https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com...lement-Agendas
    https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com...ment-Semantics
    This. Basically

    Hi Hotel
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Yeah. Those neuroses. Like looking some physical/static obstacle and thinking that there is no way to overcome it without exercising some ingenuity.


    Makes me think, if this relation carries to Si/Ni in way that Si ego wants to rely on experiential nature of their senses when it comes to forthcoming things. This sounds so weird to me. Ni ego wants to look for a path but fears that they can not handle their own sensing experiences. Or something.
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    Here’s an example of Ni

    So we've slaughtered our duck, we've hatched chicks and ducklings, we've grown our own vegetables, made beer and apple cider from our apples, we've made maple syrup, sold and borded horses, we've hayed a field, and now - this... I think it's safe to say I'm a farmer now

    And

    Looking through the old photos I found Toronto...
    Toronto... my unreciprocated mindless crush of a city... that unexplicable attraction that goes against your brain... I don't want to love you, Toronto, leave me alone!
    Looking through these pics I remember the frustration of not being able to express what I see in photographs, my skill too dull to capture the light playing in an endless field of greying dandelions in front of the high-rise skyline... Beautiful things sometimes miss the eye and strike to the heart.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Yeah. Those neuroses. Like looking some physical/static obstacle and thinking that there is no way to overcome it without exercising some ingenuity.


    Makes me think, if this relation carries to Si/Ni in way that Si ego wants to rely on experiential nature of their senses when it comes to forthcoming things. This sounds so weird to me. Ni ego wants to look for a path but fears that they can not handle their own sensing experiences. Or something.
    Yes.
    Many SLIs naturally place greater weight or importance things that they observe in person rather than place extensive focus on secondhand information.

    In general, SLIs are less interested in information that is abstract or removed from their experience; they instead focus on what they have experienced or what has affected them directly.
    I don't think they fear they cannot handle it, I think they actually let Si interposing as problematic area in their life (giving excessive importance and sometimes miscarrying it or dont knowing exactly how to fix/improve conditions, investing too much effort/time or too little in it that actually hinders in goals/purposes or achievements). Especially in regards of practical issues (Te). They are usually very physically impractical in all related to Si (health, cleaning, skills etc).

    Edit.
    This is why some IEIs could be highly benefited from an Se trainer which a hard and rigidly structured routine (Ti).
    I'm considering, this Si Role is why, monasteries and convents exist as response of the misunderstanding of pleasure and natural body function/needs such as sex and how it was mystified and believed to interpose in mystical religious pursues. The other side of the coin, are those sexual rituals, again understanding sexuality through symbols as a more comfortable way to relate to own biological functions.
    Also, this painful element in beta nf is why sjw are most likely found in here, because its based in a painful or conflicted understanding and experience of pleasure, attraction, desire and physical self perception, which seeks to force others to accept a self perceived reality which concerns the individual (not the community). It talks directly about a function in low dimensionality. Its the same phenomenon in different masks through civilization.
    Last edited by Ragdoll Lynx; 01-03-2019 at 10:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Hi Hotel
    Hi

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    BgfDoomer, gulenko has written something on the Si+Ni connection concerning the Harmonizing subtype in dcnh. It is subtype level socionics but still.

    Also it sounds like you might like to read what Jung has to say about Si. (In the famous chapter X that is online)

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    Dude OP you’re just an IEI

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    The fact that what you're talking about sounds extremely vague and abstract means it's probably Ni and/or Ti. Si has 0 to do with semiotics, which is the study of symbols and meaning etc. That is Ni. Si is not about understanding your experience, it's about making it more pleasant or hospitable. Like, oh, it's cold so I need another blanket. If this doesn't make sense to you then you are probably not an Si leading type.
    But Si must, like Ni and any other element, derive meaning from something (in Si case the focus is on bodily sensation and physical qualia) and interpret it in order to sustain its purpose. So Si is 'semiotic' in the sense that it needs to have a relation to the things it experiences, to form it into something, to know whether or not it should be sought. For Si, the symbols and meaning are mainly the spectrum of sensory input(?) Not explicitly like Ti is presented of course. But i get what you're saying. Si does not focus on imagination, and is an element 'of the moment' not 'through the moment' like Ni - it satisfies itself (quite literally) by searching for pleasant experiences. Now, here's a question - does Si experience pleasure from imagination? Can pleasure be experienced without the physical component and still be related to Si? A feeling of significance or interest can be pleasant, but can it be related to Si? I don't see this focussed on much.
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    As dynamic introverted elements those should flow inwards. The thing you sense for example when you press something or go to freezing weather sends some sort of signal to your nervous system but the process that is in your imagination right now while you are doing this is not Si as it is not sensing. If that makes sense. As your conscious takes it more in it starts to make wider associations to sensory experiences around you, meaning that you do not have to experience them in a spot to know the sensual stimuli.


    And this explanation is completely derived as I tend to have some troubles with it.
    Would the associations to sensory experience be characterised as intuition then? Imagining sensory stimuli seems, from your description, to be both related to sensing and intuition. Would intuitive types have more troubles with recreating sensory experiences, and would sensory types have more trouble creating these initial associations? Or am i misunderstanding the way you use 'imagine'? (if we go by the theory that dimensionality is representative of complexity for the individual)

    I think i am thinking of imagination as something that can also be 'sensed'
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Dude OP you’re just an IEI
    Why IEI?
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    Would the associations to sensory experience be characterised as intuition then? Imagining sensory stimuli seems, from your description, to be both related to sensing and intuition. Would intuitive types have more troubles with recreating sensory experiences, and would sensory types have more trouble creating these initial associations? Or am i misunderstanding the way you use 'imagine'? (if we go by the theory that dimensionality is representative of complexity for the individual)

    I think i am thinking of imagination as something that can also be 'sensed'
    If a person imagines a precise mechanism of any sensing activity it is hardly sensing any longer. Imagining the sensing mechanism does not participate in the sensing experience. However recreating sensing as truly sensing is a different matter. I can't generate pretty much anything or remember exactly on the spot. However I do get artificial sensing experiences that come from a weird place.
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    I find descriptions of weak Si types difficult to understand. How anyone can have such trouble feeling sensations is beyond me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    If a person imagines a precise mechanism of any sensing activity it is hardly sensing any longer. Imagining the sensing mechanism does not participate in the sensing experience. However recreating sensing as truly sensing is a different matter. I can't generate pretty much anything or remember exactly on the spot. However I do get artificial sensing experiences that come from a weird place.
    I think it is possible to undermine the relationship that sensory stimuli and mind have when using imagination. I don't think sensing necessarily HAS to be limited to the external ''physical'' 5 senses stimuli in that very rigid sense, i think that thought/imagination can be removed from sensory experience in that it doesn't need immediate stimuli to 'set it off' to still have a relation to the sensory world in the way we percieve it, so it's a bit of a blurred line. I think that the sensory world plays a key role in imagination when recollecting as sensing the recollection, although this isn't necessarily Socionics-style thinking of the term. Also this is only really based on my own perception of my thinking so it's mostly speculation. I guess this is what you would describe as ''artificial sensing''.

    I think there still is a distinction of course, it is just very clear and categorical (overly simple) when described most places.
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegra View Post
    I find descriptions of weak Si types difficult to understand. How anyone can have such trouble feeling sensations is beyond me.
    I think, for me, there is a sort of filtering of sensation. Some sensations i am completely oblivious to, and others have a profound effect on my physical and psychological state. I will never notice what people are wearing, what i myself am wearing, if my shoes fit right etc. But i can never stand to be thirsty, not even a little.
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    But i get what you're saying. Si does not focus on imagination, and is an element 'of the moment' not 'through the moment' like Ni - it satisfies itself (quite literally) by searching for pleasant experiences. Now, here's a question - does Si experience pleasure from imagination? Can pleasure be experienced without the physical component and still be related to Si? A feeling of significance or interest can be pleasant, but can it be related to Si? I don't see this focussed on much.
    Pleasantness in the sense of Si is not purely physical.
    One example might be positive emotions: these are pleasant (and emotions such as anger and fear are not) despite not being "sensory". It's FeSi. But Ni is essentially the complete opposite of Si - imagination has no direct impact on one's wellbeing. If you think of Si as purely sensory it will be less confusing than the way you currently seem to understand it.

    It's kind of amazing, I've seen at least 2 or 3 posts of this kind from different users here, where some type with weak Si has trouble comprehending how Si is not Ni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Pleasantness in the sense of Si is not purely physical.
    One example might be positive emotions: these are pleasant (and emotions such as anger and fear are not) despite not being "sensory". It's FeSi. But Ni is essentially the complete opposite of Si - imagination has no direct impact on one's wellbeing. If you think of Si as purely sensory it will be less confusing than the way you currently seem to understand it.

    It's kind of amazing, I've seen at least 2 or 3 posts of this kind from different users here, where some type with weak Si has trouble comprehending how Si is not Ni.
    Why do you think i have weak Si?
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    Why do you think i have weak Si?
    Ego functions are ones in terms of which you naturally see the world - if something really seems that foreign to you it probably means it's not an ego function. And your consistent use of Ni makes Se ego unlikely also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Ego functions are ones in terms of which you naturally see the world - if something really seems that foreign to you it probably means it's not an ego function. And your consistent use of Ni makes Se ego unlikely also.
    Where do you see Ni in my posts? I've associated my style more with Ne, but i would like to hear what you mean.
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    Where do you see Ni in my posts? I've associated my style more with Ne, but i would like to hear what you mean.
    I mentioned some examples above. But who knows, you could be LII. There is a lot of Ti too.

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    Your vagueness and complexity of thought strikes me as the intuitive irrational brand of Dialectical Algorithmic cognition. It feels like you are clarifying a vague picture of something you are trying to understand (I do this a lot by the way, maybe you have a different way of seeing it so you need not interpret it this way). Ergo, you strike me as an ILI. This is only an impression; I don't know you and so couldn't defend this rigorously. There are a few things that further corroborate this though:

    1- that you list your TIM as "Aporia", and seem to place a lot of emphasis on this concept in general. Aporia is more common in the writing and thought of an ILI than in any other type; it may be said to characterize their very mental process in some ways

    2- your focus on clarifying the details of the process of the information elements, and your clarifying process in conversation with your interlocutors, strikes me as rather "process"/right-spinning/evolutionary as opposed to "result"/left-spinning/involutionary. You may not be familiar with these dichotomies.

    3- the complex creative power that your imagination seems to have over your sensory experiences. I totally agree with you that these concepts (and really all Socionics concepts) are entangled with one another, which seems to be one of your points. They way I see it, the various states of the processes flow in and out of one another. While the relatively discrete functional state (Ni, Si, Fe, Ti, Te, etc.) is clear in many cases, the boundaries are blurrier and seem to relate to Yin-Yang principles as well as something called Enantiodromia. The details of this process are mysterious, but it can surely be discussed. The whole idea of boundaries is a mystery in its own right.

    Some brief differences between Si and Ni; I don't think telling them apart in practice is so difficult, but their relationship is nonetheless fascinating:

    Si-Tastes, colors, smells, touches
    Conformism, adaptation
    Enjoy the moment

    Ni- Imagination, memories, predictions
    Suggestion, hypnosis, visions, symbols
    Reflection, premonitions, omens

    Some comments on the transition from Si into Ni: physical relaxation, saturation of biological needs leads to philosophical reflections on fate and the meaning of life. So the animal life of primitive people was compensated by superstition. But even now people living for the sake of the stomach and the accumulation of things balance their one-sided sensory character with faith in omens, anxiety, primitive religiosity.

    Some comments on the transition from Ni into Si: reflections on "high matters", spirituality and moral quest are compensated by carnal pleasures, earthly instincts, admiration with their bodies, etc. Religions that cultivate T states carry out this compensation as lifting the ban on fast food after the end of the fast . For one-sided adherence to T, a person pays with perverted tastes, unnatural diseases, sadomasochism.

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    This is my view on Si:

    We can talk about Si as qualia, sensations like touch, smell, tastes, colors, BUT Si is not identical to these. They are just keywords.

    Si is an internal component that seems attatched to qualia. It gives "depth" to sensations and makes them more subjective and "organic".

    One could say that Si is what sensations "feel like"

    Si is the function that senses these inner impressions, but I assume everyone has these, although they are not sensed by everyone.

    Comfort is one example of an inner impression.

    The challenge for any Si ego is to understand that these impressions are not part of the object or even of the qualia (tastes, colors etc)

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    @Varlawend

    Thank you for the elaborate and informative post concerning my possible type + the OP, it is very much appreciated.

    >It feels like you are clarifying a vague picture of something you are trying to understand
    This is very much a part of my recognizable thought process. I seem to grasp something very ethereal and vague, and trying to flesh it out with conceptualization and imagery is the external (within my own thoughts) step (i recognize the internal as the ''egg'' of the thought, the initial and essential energy). The other main way i seem to think is the defining of terms not unlike the way LII reasoning is described in the ''Holographic Panoramic'' form of cognition described in some theoretical branches on here. The whole ''turning definitions on axes to squeeze out every way it could be understood'' i recognize in myself as well (which seems like valued Ti and Ne?). But yes, my thinking is more vague, non-rigid and flowing than how LII is usually described.

    1. >seem to place a lot of emphasis on this concept in general
    I have an intimate relationship with viewing reality through doubt, puzzlement and non-knowing. I always think of my reasoning as: if i had these assumptions, it would turn out like this. But there is no ground for it all, so i am only playing in the darkness. I think of my position in life as relaxed enjoyment, reflection and contemplation, keeping calm because there is nothing else to do. Scepticism is very much a cornerstone of my thought, though i accept harmless assumptions as there is no escape from them, and i accept acceptance in myself as again, it is inescapable. "A doubt that doubted everything would not be a doubt"

    >your focus on clarifying the details of the process of the information elements, and your clarifying process in conversation with your interlocutors, strikes me as rather "process"/right-spinning/evolutionary as opposed to "result"/left-spinning/involutionary. You may not be familiar with these dichotomies.

    Thank you. I am not familiar enough with these dichotomies, although i can intuit some meaning from them. I will research this further. I am in general very focus on the meaning of some ''experience'' or thought 'as-is', the ''feeling'' or experience of thinking that thought in itself - what it means/what is the ground of it. The result seems arbitrary, as the process (as a general term) IS the result in some way.

    3.
    >I totally agree with you that these concepts (and really all Socionics concepts) are entangled with one another, which seems to be one of your points. the boundaries are blurrier and seem to relate to Yin-Yang principles as well as something called Enantiodromia. The details of this process are mysterious, but it can surely be discussed. The whole idea of boundaries is a mystery in its own right.
    My imagination does play a great part in how i think of sensory experience, and thus how i experience. What you gained from my posts are exactly something that i focus on, the mystery of boundary. It is not something that i have externalized, but i find your wording very fitting. ''boundary'' is something that encapsules my way of thinking of things, and how i view relationships between things. To understand boundary seems to relate intimately to how the boundary of the object is understood, although it is unknowable in some way. Boundary permeates all experience, all thought. All categorisation builds on this concept. This wording really brought something forth that was only imagery in my mind. Things are only in relation to one another, seems to be the facet of boundary. It seems like a principle which all living things must recognize or be able to work with. Never heard of ''Enantiodromia' but it seems to be a concept which focuses actually on ''when is something something else'' because things must always be something else, even if we regard this sameness as still being there. Sameness as continued existence is opposite of the sameness that has not existed continually yet (a bit diffuse but is an ''egg'' of a new thought)

    @Tallmo
    Yes, i think of Si as qualia too. But isn't all experience and thought somehow qualia? The experience of imagination must feel like something too, right? Will this be qualia in a Si sense too? That the imaginations ''feel'' like something? I would imagine ''inner impressions'' would reach to abstraction and imagination as well. What do you think?





    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post


    @Tallmo
    Yes, i think of Si as qualia too. But isn't all experience and thought somehow qualia? The experience of imagination must feel like something too, right? Will this be qualia in a Si sense too? That the imaginations ''feel'' like something? I would imagine ''inner impressions'' would reach to abstraction and imagination as well. What do you think?
    @para, My response would be that this is not philosophy. Then you have to narrow you definition of qualia. If we by qualia mean colors, tastes, touch etc. then Si is a component attached to these and gives depth to them. Si does NOT reach to imagination. But ultimately this is an empirical question and you have to observe Si people to find out.

    When I said that Si is what sensations "feel like" I didn't mean that everything that feels like something is Si (like for example imagination).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    @para, My response would be that this is not philosophy. Then you have to narrow you definition of qualia. If we by qualia mean colors, tastes, touch etc. then Si is a component attached to these and gives depth to them. Si does NOT reach to imagination. But ultimately this is an empirical question and you have to observe Si people to find out.

    When I said that Si is what sensations "feel like" I didn't mean that everything that feels like something is Si (like for example imagination).
    Okay, i get what you're saying. So, if i gain pleasure from imagination, it would not be Si, as it is not related to any 'external-from-thought' experience? Si can gain pleasure from Ne because of some 'newness' that isn't sensory?
    "Am I butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi? Never assume what you see and feel is real!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varlawend View Post

    Si-Tastes, colors, smells, touches
    Conformism, adaptation
    Enjoy the moment
    Why do you think Si is conformism? I can think of some possible argument, but would be curious to hear what you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Why do you think Si is conformism? I can think of some possible argument, but would be curious to hear what you think.
    Good question: I was just citing Gulenko's snapshot definitions of the functions and not really explaining myself. I don't think that Si always represents itself as conformism; at a more sophisticated level Si can be far more subtle than that. However, conformism may be a primitive manifestation of Si.

    Sensory Comfort S
    High level: aesthetics, subtle skills, comfort, care, pleasure, tenderness, elegance, agility, experience
    Primitive level: philistinism, conformism, consumerism, mediocrity, idleness, laziness, hypochondria, whining, satiety.
    The reason that conformism might show up with Si at the primitive level is because it's trying to achieve comfort and harmony with the environment. Conformism is lazy, gives you a basic orientation so that you don't have to spend the energy confronting the chaos necessary to come up with a more original and effective one, and it's an easy way to access some amount of comfort and fitting in (but this only goes so far since being a doormat will soon cease to be comfortable). Conformism is also a social intelligence that is to some extent necessary for humans, allowing you to adapt to your environment without making any waves. Of course Si is regularly used for many other things and at higher levels. And it might be said that types who don't even have Si as one of their most used functions could still be said to suffer from the effects of primitive Si. ILI's, for example, can often be lazy, idle, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varlawend View Post
    Good question: I was just citing Gulenko's snapshot definitions of the functions and not really explaining myself. I don't think that Si always represents itself as conformism; at a more sophisticated level Si can be far more subtle than that. However, conformism may be a primitive manifestation of Si.



    The reason that conformism might show up with Si at the primitive level is because it's trying to achieve comfort and harmony with the environment. Conformism is lazy, gives you a basic orientation so that you don't have to spend the energy confronting the chaos necessary to come up with a more original and effective one, and it's an easy way to access some amount of comfort and fitting in (but this only goes so far since being a doormat will soon cease to be comfortable). Conformism is also a social intelligence that is to some extent necessary for humans, allowing you to adapt to your environment without making any waves. Of course Si is regularly used for many other things and at higher levels. And it might be said that types who don't even have Si as one of their most used functions could still be said to suffer from the effects of primitive Si. ILI's, for example, can often be lazy, idle, etc.
    Anti-conformism also displays itself through Si.

    For instance, Pink Floyd’s The Wall.

    At its heart is a song about needing to conform to school systems that do not take stock of individual Si: students, forced to attend school for 8 hours a day, working against their natural instincts, working against thier needs to move about and play and nap and sleep, sitting on chairs with straight backs looking at boards. -> the institution will not destroy our need for human comfort. This sort of thing.

    The Wall was demonstrating non conformity from the stand point if a Si perspective. The style of song and melody, not just the message, is a Si expereince in and of itself: very immersive, meant to illicit a physically uncomfortable yet purely encoded sensational experience in the listener. You ‘fall’ into the soundtrack. Many Pink Floyd fans are baby boomer Si and Ne types.

    Conforming Si is the kind that manifests in the 1st world countries love for Home Improvement and cooking shows, flip that house, Best Home chef, Pumpkin Spice Latte, all the exotic variety of modern cuisine, home making, Martha Stewart “its a goodthing”.

    My own own country is very much this way as it freezes for almost half a year and the natural instincts are to huddle together in proverbial furs against the cold and to build and create elaborate nests, sorry I meant modern insulated homes, against the cold. These are tied in with Si awareness.

    Si in delta isnt always as cozy as alphas because logics of actions drives individuals into the environment and the elements more often. So Si here is linked with real world pragmatism. They make Si into a lifestyle tied with ‘what to do’. As a symbolic example think Japanese construction style and carpentry and its high level of workmanship and mastery which always references aesthetic beauty while maintaining high functionality. This could be used archetypically as the Craftsman, although in reality a more North American version is the back yard barbequer and occasional dirt biker. Man caves are one such Si activity here. Its a personal collection of objects, ambiance, and furnishings meant to activate Si.

    Si is supremely obvious once you grasp what it is ‘out there’
    Last edited by Jaqen; 01-17-2019 at 09:24 PM.

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