Does "tough love" motivation work on you?
I'm pretty sure someone (maybe me) posted this before, but we have new members, so yeah...
How do you feel about a guy like this who straight-up calls you a loser when you underperform? Do you think he's an asshole who deserves to be punched in the face, or does he make you want to get your act together (or both)?
Thoughts before watching the video: I think maybe this kind of treatment makes me want to get my act together eventually while wanting to punch them in the face for a while at first until I see the benefit of being faced with that.
Thoughts after watching the video (I can’t in my region so looked up the clip): Dude in video is gentle af. It’s like being licked and nuzzled by a kitten to me. I would actually find him possibly too gentle to take seriously. He’s basically just trolling. This is exactly the kind of man who would never try to physically or seriously emotionally hurt you. This is the kind of person who cares the most about other people.
No I don't like this kind of thing. It's possible to motivate someone without insulting them and implying that they're pathetic if they fail. This is an Se thing.
It would motivate me to find a better job.
This kind of "look what a big guy I am" talks? Nope. If anything, I would be more motivated to find another job if possible and sustainable- I automatically start tuning out when it feels like people are trying to sell their image and importance to you with how much money they make and how they profit off others, or in general any sort of demand for respect when it feels unearned on a personal basis. (Sans you know, basic human decency towards others)
Only time any type of "tough love" helps is when I'm actually being whiny about something and am subconsciously fishing for pissing other side off enough to tell me off so that I would finally get over it and move on to doing the thing I was procrastinating on, so basically only when I need some sort of catharsis from a rather stressing situation/a push to explode and move on. At which case, I probably am aware that I deserve that for acting so unreasonable and after initially being pissed off, I cool down to admit that I was being an asshole anyway.
It’s interesting looking at most others’ responses. I almost think I need this kind of environment to prosper in. In fact I wish the guy in the video would be much more passionate; I actually feel he’s being awkwardly gentle. I would want him to literally get up into my face and yell into my ears. I would tell myself, “I will make this person proud. Also, I will eventually surpass him, and make him feel like his belief in me and investment/efforts aren’t wasted.”Originally Posted by thehotelambush
Lol. That's a good scene. Yeah that works on me.
It's not the ideal way to motivate me but it works with a couple stipulations:
1) I trust the person enough not to write them off as a hater
2) I'm given time to chew on what they said, because my initial reaction is to fight back
Didn't watch the video but I'll reply anyway. My thoughts on tough love is that it's probably one of the forms I enjoy the most. Because it only works if the person administrating it believes that you can handle that and will rise to the occation. Thereby it's inherently respectful. I've served in different units but I prefered the marines the most cuz the officers will straight up call you an idiot if you're acting like an idiot. There's no confusion in that. Others and more recently just kind of use the quiet approach and try to make you think yourself. This might work too but it depends a lot on how they do it. For me, this has cultivated an air of paranoia, you don't trust these officers cuz it feels like they say little to your face and then shit talk you amongst themselves. Successfully removing the vital trust one has to have for your officers.
It somewhat depends on the situation if I would argue back but regardless, yes I would reflect on the situation, learn, and try to better myself.
If it's single-handedly targeted towards me then it doesn't work and I am antagonistic towards it because I assume the person is just being a bully and using tough love as an excuse to be sadistic. Unless it is someone I know well and trust then I know their intentions are good and well meaning despite their harsh execution of it so in that situation I am kind of ambivalent about it. I am also ambivalent with how it is done in the video because it's towards an entire group instead of just one person so the intention isn't to bully, but to motivate.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
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6w7-9w1-4w5
It doesn't work on me in the least. It also goes against my morals if it is too strong. I agree with @thehotelambush that some Se s are inclined to do this. But type is never really an excuse for excessively bad behavior.
Gamma is the Quadra that is most oriented around "controlling others" - NTs and SFs alike. Most other quadras are rather freedomloving by comparison and would resent it if they knew how selfishly manipulative some Gammas (not all) actually are. They have taken over most of the wealth in the USA to boot, and create a lot of stupid norms others shouldn't have to follow - like 50 hour work weeks without true rewards and the like. Then the Ses and the Nis team up and guilt, insult and psychologically pathologize everyone not on their teams in life for more selfgain - like outrageous interest rates leading to "bad credit" leading to more higher extortionate rates, or more bullshit traffic tickets for offenses that shouldn't even be offenses (or perhaps one was falsely accused yet has no recourse but pay up the ass so cops can keep looking good like they are protecting society while punishing innocents too much for bullshit. Thank God marijuana was finally legalized in Michigan, even though I don't smoke it. Petty crimes. "Winners and Losers". Ugh. I digress.
Remember, folks, as I have said in other threads - when I refer to Gammas these would allegedly be the Alphas if you are overly reliant on Gulenko's research for your type knowledge rather than true typings.
Last edited by vesstheastralsilky; 12-20-2018 at 04:56 PM.
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Post types & fully individuated before 2012 ...
Someone calling you a loser for underperformance is not tough love. That's being an asshole.
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The guy in that video is a prime example of greedy capitalist scum. Those workers should unite and send him to the gulag. ☭
The falling teacher called my class a bunch of ******s this October....
Delta's are immune to this sort of thing because logic of actions is a breeze for them they don't need to be motivated to work and do it well they already are orientated that way.
This came across as more Beta Se.
When I was on the fireline the government guys where all about doing push ups in the morning to get in the groove and the Te types kind of looked at each other, especially the ones already entrenched in foresty and logging like "umm okaaaaay".
I'd say this is more just enneagram 8 behvavior then anything else, though there's Te and Se in there of course. I'd type this guy LIE E8.
Sure.
Personally I find this kind of approach amusing and I will work harder under it "finally some LIFE here". I don't need it or anything though. Be competent at what you are doing and you don't need to fear things. Thanks Jordan.
Sure it works but not necessarily in an intended way. Adios!
Although, I would not ever end up in such situation myself.
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It depends. If it's someone that I trust has the best intentions for me, and I think what they are saying is correct, then yes. Truth is for me, if I already feel uncomfortable about something I have done, then it was probably something that was wrong, and ideally that would be motivation enough to change something, but sometimes external checks can help that motivation if there isn't enough within me. I think that in general it's a good idea for people to have "reality checks" with a situation spelled out for them bluntly (not necessarily aggressively). But I'm not going to listen to that sort of aggression from a random stranger, I'm much more likely to just brush them off.
I wish I were more thick-skinned, but in reality, I tend to react defensively to manifestations of hot aggression (especially accusations) from other people, even if it's meant well, so if you really want an answer from me quickly you should be blunt but not extremely accusatory. Generally if people that I care about are directing strong emotions towards me I will mirror the reaction if I'm not being careful. Upon further thought I can recognize the goodwill behind it if there is any. A while back, I provided an analogy to a SO that went something like this (for context, I was upset about something but I didn't want to talk about it at that moment, and she was mad about that): "If you attack me and send in your cannons, I will respond by fortifying the walls of my fortress so that you can't come in. But if you send your diplomats instead, I am much more likely to let you come in to discuss, even if you have the same grievances". A bit pretentious but it represents my view on the matter well - tough love is extremely valuable but it need not be manifested in an overly aggressive way.
Last edited by ghost of forum past; 12-20-2018 at 09:48 PM.
it depends if i think the other person is right or not.
if i think he´s just kind of bluntly telling me the truth as a way to steer me away from a wrong situation...it can work.
if i think he´s just creating some sort of groupthink or trying to use me to "prove" to him that I can´t do something...it doesn´t work at all.
In most cases it´s just some anger management problem or a way to make you work harder for the same pay.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Considering this scene is about sales, as a disguised form of hustling, I don't care for it and think it's kind of a shitty way to be a human being. These people don't care about selling good products that people want, they just want to sell you something so they can make a buck. I could see the appeal for Beta STs. They probably wouldn't care about that as much.
If it's about selling a good product that people want though, then I wouldn't mind the speech so much. I'd just be a facilitator, like an engineer working sales to help other businesses get what they need to function well.
?
Not discounting your experiences, but none of the Gammas I know are like this, including myself. My brother (SEE), me (ILI), and friend (LIE) are all freedom loving and don't like to control people. The LIE likes to work overtime to make more money, but doesn't impose it on others. My LSE boss is actually pretty bad when it comes to working; he pressures everyone to do overtime even when it isn't needed, so we can get further ahead and all that...I think it's just his PoLR? He's always stressed about nothing. Always worried something isn't right or going well, even when it is.
Not sure what you mean by wanting to control people with interest rates either. I feel like that could apply to any type that is rich and uses their power to extort money from people that need it. Probably more a Beta thing, but I guess that could apply to anyone that knows they will get away with it, without any repercussions. Everything does run on money after all. It's kind of a stupid game, but we have to play regardless.
Cops are usually LSI or LSE imo, LSI for law and order and LSE for protecting people from other people. A Gamma cop would much more likely believe they are there to serve and protect everyone, rather than hold up the law for order, punish people, or extort money from people for petty crimes imo. Or maybe I'm biased or mistyped, but I've put too much thought into Jungian ideas to believe that any more.
Kind of reminds me an episode of Cops, where this guy pulled someone over for a tail light or something and the guy had weed and got nervous. So he tried to eat a small bag of weed and when the cop had him roll down his window, he saw him trying to eat it and gagging and was like that can't taste very good. You didn't have to do that. I just pulled you over for a tail light. And he let him go cause he felt bad for him, lol.
I don’t know how to answer this so I’m just going to wing-it. I really appreciate “tough love”, holding someones feet to the fire, wanting them to be stronger, making them face their “demons”. The fact that they do this, tells me there is a standard, it is reachable, and they think I can accomplish the task. The idea that my back is against the wall is just more encouraging. Plus if they don’t threaten to fire you, then they don’t value the job, and if they don’t value the job, then they don’t value you.
I have been fired out-of-the-blue before, and the idea of not having a chance to fight is sickening. I have also noticed that if they us sympathy instead, you might as-well pack up your things. Every job interview and placement that triggered this ended in catastrophe. “Tough love” people are the people who want you, sympathy people are those who see you as an unprofessional liability. Never trigger their emotions, if you value the job.
I actually would not mind a variant of this attitude from a SO. “This is what I need, this is what you are giving, you will do better.” This would help us stay on track to meet both of our goals, and strengthen the relationship by way of support and offering value. Then again, I am more prone to wanting to please a SO.
It doesn't work on me. Love may be tough, but it's not callous. Love is soft, and gentle and kind but not a pushover or coward. (Ppl easily confuse the two but they are totally different.) Love is strong enough to see you through with it. Love is amazing probably because it can be both hard and soft, all at the same time (just like a man's penis- which backwards society tells us we should hate but it's wrong) - where you stop thinking about what's strong or weak to begin with and just instead feel sweet relief. And relief is how we fight DIS-ease. Disease.. DIS EASE. lol.
It makes me agitated that the person feels like they know what's better for me better than I do.
If they don't push me when I (repeatedly) say no, then I could let down my guard.
"Tough love" doesn't work on me at all. It's been tried more than once. I'm not sure if this kinda stuff is related to Socionics or not. But the effect of this kind of behavior is exactly the opposite of its intent for me. Hardness/harshness takes energy away from me. Don't get me wrong, I don't like sweetness either that goes with a saccharine attitude. But this kinda stuff actually makes it harder for me to act, not easier. It's not a motivator but an enervator lol.
Sales isn't really for me anyway. I remember working retail and being told to sucker customers all the time. I was always on their side and loved bending the rules to help them instead of the assholes I worked for lol. I've always thought management is worse than customers.
I think it's important not to confuse Socionics with a sick society. If your livelihood depends on taking something away from someone else, e.g. money, you live in a sick society. Living in a sick society tends to warp people. Everyone becomes the walking wounded in one way or another. By sick, I don't necessarily mean morally ill. Competition is just a natural consequence of scarcity.
That's life, though: cycles. Birth, growth, ascendancy, decay, death, rebirth. Eventually, this kind of bullshit will eat itself. Yes, there will be other bullshit. But it'll be different bullshit.
Last edited by Aramas; 12-24-2018 at 03:42 PM.
I've always resented teachers that criticized me more than they taught. It didn't motivate me at all, just wanted me to punch them in the face.
Those aren't teachers. Those are just sadists who work in a teaching position.
Those aren't teachers. Those are just sadists who work in a teaching position. I've known at least one of them, and it's true. They quit when they had their classroom power taken away from them by policy changes. They never cared about kids and weren't interested in teaching. They just wanted power and could never acquire it with adults, so they chose to exert power over children instead.
The one I knew personally complained about the policy removing corporal punishment, and necessary promotion of failing students to free up seats for next year's kids. That was all it took to make them quit.
It doesn't motivate me at all and I think it's bullshit that only unsympathetic people full of inner traumas do when they envy their more talented students or children. I'm also pretty sure it brings more harm than good, kids learn to distrust their own abilities, employees learn to distrust their employers and students learn to hate their teachers. If you do it to a small kid you can seriously fuck up his self confidence and put him off from doing things they can be good at.
Tough love comes better from within, in my experience. People around me trying to be all harsh and critical and shit is a real demotivator. If I feel like I'm not doing satisfactory just looking around and observing my environment with my own eyes, I'll make a strong effort to improve and impose that on myself. It's not a challenge or a form of motivation if someone's just giving me shit about it; it just feels like I'm molding myself to appease their ego instead, and I'd rather not give them that satisfaction.
Not so much as it works, as it forces you to get thick skinned and check your priorities. Which also creates an emotional dilemma in some people, as they want recognition. Those who want recognition, will improve and gain thick skin, because what if they are right? Or that they need their job, and it creates competitiveness. Those who are stubborn, will perform the same or under perform.
So all in all, it depends on your ego, and your perspective. An obstacle that needs to be overcome, a problem? an annoyance? Or an opportunity.
Yeah, exactly. I'd be drafting my resume while he was talking.
He just looks like an idiot to me, with whacked priorities, and I have no respect for those sorts.
Unless he's also your actual father, your boss is inherently incapable of loving you.
Fuck no I don't need another psi of pressure from whatever wrinkled old cunt is policing every iota of my body language and digital footprint for tiny infractions on pain of cutting off my income, it should be enough that I show up, do the damn task for a set amount of hours, fuck off at closing, and maybe get monetary compensation every month. Who do these bastards think they are thinking they can fucking treat their precious workers that turn the gears of their institutions that way?!
Human filth in a suit, plz euthanize.
Exactly.
And if you think about it, the person giving the tough love like that is knowingly putting themselves in a disadvantaged position for you because they’re making an ass out of themselves and risking looking like a douche.
Someone who can afford to do that is actually powerful. They’re pushing to try to reach you. I want to be with someone who wants me to improve like this in ways that I value and would benefit from. The opposite of love is indifference.
Also, I appreciate those who are efficient and frank like this, instead of covert douchebags.
And I do not underestimate the help and feedback of those who are more successful than I am.
Last edited by sbbds; 12-28-2018 at 06:46 AM.
I tend to perform well in environments that give me the impression that I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. For example, a couple years ago, I studied for an information security certificate, a cert necessary to gain employment in specific infosec positions, and the curriculum served as excellent motivation because it was so intensive and risk-oriented by nature. The happiest relationship I had was with someone who held my feet to the fire by stripping me of egoic attachments and challenging me to reach criteria necessary to sustain the relationship long term. Furthermore, most of my hobbies have a competitive ring to them, and I become most competitive and successful when I have little to work with.
Tough love motivation, like that of the video, tends to give the impression you have little to lose and a lot to gain, and I'd much rather endure it than deal with management from someone who passive-aggressively shits on my successes and reflexively undermines even the most logical, feasible, solutions and plans.
@xerxe: You found an effective way to find gammas. Iow, those who like Te+Se. Doesn't seem to work for anyone else.
(And no, this is not an invitation for those who disagree with how I've typed you to argue with me lol. I don't care how you type yourselves, or how you type me. You can put that somewhere else, because this is actually interesting. Type arguments otoh are worthless and boring. Let people draw their own conclusions, not based on stupid arguments but based on actual information and open thoughts.)
Having not watched the video:
In most cases, no.
There can be some exceptions, like if I trust the person well enough and know they are doing it for my good, otherwise I am likely to see them as sadistic, not as someone who is well-intended.
That said, I can be pretty demanding and tough on myself at times. But I tend to be more of a lone wolf and don't appreciate group motivation rituals that happen in alot of team sports. I wouldn't mind having friends who are into lifting too as we could mutually motivate each other, though this would be more of an informal thing, ideally. I don't really see how I could find someone who wants to do my program with me, though: different people go to the gym with vastly different goals, and it's rare to find someone who wants to do exactly what you want to do, ime.
I guess I don't really appreciate the idea of sacrificing myself for anything other than myself, doing it for "the team, the company, the country" whatever seems like scary collectivist thinking, I'd rather do it for myself, if others follow, great, if not, too bad; I still did it for me.
I don't think type is the only factor determining whether this works on someone or not.
Yeah it is lol. (sarcasm)
And gammas can get it.
(Figure she might be being sarcastic, but if not then lol)
Last edited by sbbds; 12-28-2018 at 03:57 PM.
Seriously though, these “bitchy” people are the ones you can typically get the most value and resources from because you can leverage their bad karma guilt lol. If you don’t crack under their pressure, they’ll basically give you their inheritance and stuff because they’re obliged to afterwards if they see you’ve put a decent amount of effort in. Meeting an asshole is often a blessing in disguise financially. Everyone else misunderstands them and leaves them but you, but only you can see their warm fuzzy interior. How to endear yourself to Te ego bosses 101 lmao.
Maybe it’s easy for me to distinguish this “tough love” from real abuse, or maybe it’s the opposite. The lines are blurred for me and I just don’t care anymore, seeing as my mother periodically called me a worthless whore and I’ve worked extensively and almost exclusively for similarly fierce, powerful Asian women.
Do not forget that the truly strong will instinctively feed those they feel are weaker than them, yet similar to them with potential.
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